Necessity Unites.....

[blitzmonkey]

Neutralzye said in another thread that we as Legion adapt. This helped inspire me to write this. I don't really care if it is ignored or trashed, but I wanted to at least say it so I personally feel better and hopefully will help some others feel better as well. Some may agree with all, part, or none of what I say....either way, take it with a grain of salt.

I have played Legion for around 4 or 5 years or so. As a primary Legion player, I have faced all kinds of ridicule for playing Legion, despite some never playing me. As soon as I sit down to play and break out the Legion, I sometimes got eye rolls and huffs about me playing "Legion of Evercheese". It really was kind of lonely, believe it or not.

Then I found the Privateer Press Forums and although I may not agree with everything people say on here, it is nice to have fellow players enhance a sense of community for Legion.

I am sure we will recover, but right now, we are fighting each other instead of working together. We can keep pointing fingers at one another and say stuff like Typhon is fine now or OMG I hate PP....that doesn't really get us anywhere on either side.

With that, I would like to remind everyone of a few things that have happened in the past.

Going from MKI to MKII, there were countless posts about how much people were ecstatic and overjoyed that we were going to get the nerf bat. I mean really? People were lamenting on how they can't wait for LoE players to cry and have to play a real game now that they are losing all of their toys.

So what happened? When MKII came out, we have a few grumbles on our end, but we had people point and laugh like some scene from Carrie. And what did we do? We took our new stuff and rammed it down their throats. "Ha, ha, Angels don't ignore free strikes anymore....l2p noob". Well, most of us did, and they, in my experience, were taken back. We adapted. We worked together to take what we had and crush people with it.

To a lesser degree, this sentiment was shared post-Jan/March update. Although we still disagree, a lot of useful posts were written about how to use Rhyas, Vayl, and E-Lyl now that she isn't a bow cannon machine. But we did it as a community. We even did it despite the fact that Typhon was nerfed already a bit and we used him the way the designers told us they intended: As a Gun Platform.

And now we get our final rules in print. We need and will adapt again.

The following people may or may not agree with, but I hope the point I am trying to make overshadows that. We, imo, are the weakest faction right now. Does that make us suck? No. Do we have to adapt? Yes. Legion players in my experiences have fallen into two categories: Toolboxes and the best WM/H players in the game. And I mean that. So this is the time for people to choose. Do they want to be a toolbox and continue to ***** and moan on either side (My stuff sucks, or your stuff is fine stfu and l2p) or do you want to contribute to us rallying and recuperating and making our Legion even better?

I have a challenge for every Legion player out there. Make everyone you play think Legion is broken again. I want the boards to be filled with posts about how Legion is broken and how they hate playing us. I want us to work together to make the other factions hate us even more than they did in MK I. We have a lot of work to do to get there, but we have done it in the past and can do it again.

So let us unite and work together to make it happen. It is an uphill better, but nothing worth working for is easy. I think we can do it. I just hope I'm not the only one.

[SteakAndSpirits]

100% support this.

Great post, Blitz.

-s&s

[Indirect Hitman]

I almost never post and yet I feel compelled to say: Well done.

Blitz, you have my compliments.

[PyroSikTh]

We should be lamenting in the challenge of the nerfs rather than complaining about them.

Although, I think I've already achieved your challenge. I don't use any of the models that have been affected (apart from eThags, but I used him sparingly anyway), and I swear my fiancee thinks Legion are cheesy as all hell :P

[Soul King]

Neutralzye said in another thread that we as Legion adapt. This helped inspire me to write this. I don't really care if it is ignored or trashed, but I wanted to at least say it so I personally feel better and hopefully will help some others feel better as well. Some may agree with all, part, or none of what I say....either way, take it with a grain of salt.

I have played Legion for around 4 or 5 years or so. As a primary Legion player, I have faced all kinds of ridicule for playing Legion, despite some never playing me. As soon as I sit down to play and break out the Legion, I sometimes got eye rolls and huffs about me playing "Legion of Evercheese". It really was kind of lonely, believe it or not.

Then I found the Privateer Press Forums and although I may not agree with everything people say on here, it is nice to have fellow players enhance a sense of community for Legion.

I am sure we will recover, but right now, we are fighting each other instead of working together. We can keep pointing fingers at one another and say stuff like Typhon is fine now or OMG I hate PP....that doesn't really get us anywhere on either side.

With that, I would like to remind everyone of a few things that have happened in the past.

Going from MKI to MKII, there were countless posts about how much people were ecstatic and overjoyed that we were going to get the nerf bat. I mean really? People were lamenting on how they can't wait for LoE players to cry and have to play a real game now that they are losing all of their toys.

So what happened? When MKII came out, we have a few grumbles on our end, but we had people point and laugh like some scene from Carrie. And what did we do? We took our new stuffed and rammed it down their throats. "Ha, ha, Angels don't ignore free strikes anymore....l2p noob". Well, most of us did, and they, in my experience, were taken back. We adapted. We worked together to take what we had and crush people with it.

To a lesser degree, this sentiment was shared post-Jan/March update. Although we still disagree, a lot of useful posts were written about how to use Rhyas, Vayl, and E-Lyl now that she isn't a bow cannon machine. But we did it as a community. We even did it despite the fact that Typhon was nerfed already a bit and we used him the way the designers told us they intended: As a Gun Platform.

And now we get our final rules in print. We need and will adapt again.

The following people may or may not agree with, but I hope the point I am trying to make overshadows that. We, imo, are the weakest faction right now. Does that make us suck? No. Do we have to adapt? Yes. Legion players in my experiences have fallen into two categories: Toolboxes and the best WM/H players in the game. And I mean that. So this is the time for people to choose. Do they want to be a toolbox and continue to ***** and moan on either side (My stuff sucks, or your stuff is fine stfu and l2p) or do you want to contribute to us rallying and recuperating and making our Legion even better?

I have a challenge for every Legion player out there. Make everyone you play think Legion is broken again. I want the boards to be filled with posts about how Legion is broken and how they hate playing us. I want us to work together to make the other factions hate us even more than they did in MK I. We have a lot of work to do to get there, but we have done it in the past and can do it again.

So let us unite and work together to make it happen. It is an uphill better, but nothing worth working for is easy. I think we can do it. I just hope I'm not the only one.

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE!!!!

200% support this.....though I dont think that people now agree with this. Especially over on the changes thread, which I STRONGLY URGE LEGION PLAYERS TO BOYCOTT, many, including some of our strongest and well known posters have demoralized the Legion faction as a whole by having the entire community feeling that we are weak, pathetic, and our stuff sucks.

I dont, and I will find the silver lining behind EVERY Model, EVERY Unit, and EVERY single thing in Legion, until we become as hated, and feared, as the EVlad cheese list of Mk.I, not because we spam predictable, and boring strategies that seem to always work, but because we will become UNBEATABLE ADAPTING MACJHINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thag-rush]

When life hands you a lemon, jab the lemons in life's eyes and then kick him in the nuts.

[HordesAddict]

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE!!!!

200% support this.....though I dont think that people now agree with this. Especially over on the changes thread, which I STRONGLY URGE LEGION PLAYERS TO BOYCOTT, many, including some of our strongest and well known posters have demoralized the Legion faction as a whole by having the entire community feeling that we are weak, pathetic, and our stuff sucks.

I dont, and I will find the silver lining behind EVERY Model, EVERY Unit, and EVERY single thing in Legion, until we become as hated, and feared, as the EVlad cheese list of Mk.I, not because we spam predictable, and boring strategies that seem to always work, but because we will become UNBEATABLE ADAPTING MACJHINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen to that!

@Blitz I think I love you...

JJ. Very well said. We shall emerge from this period of adversity even stronger than before and all shall fear the wrath of Everblight!

[frozenwastes]

The first step in adaptation is the survival of the fittest. That which is unfit must die so the fit can flourish in it's place.

It might be that I'll have to let go of eLylyth as my go-to ranged caster in favor of someone else. Perhaps my army would work better with pLylyth.

[Defenstrator]

200% support this.....though I dont think that people now agree with this. Especially over on the changes thread, which I STRONGLY URGE LEGION PLAYERS TO BOYCOTT, many, including some of our strongest and well known posters have demoralized the Legion faction as a whole by having the entire community feeling that we are weak, pathetic, and our stuff sucks.

Yes, after all, the last thing that people should do is dare to read alternate views before forming their own opinions. And the idea that experienced players who may have a clue what they are talking about should certainly be ignored in favor of mindless optimism.

Life will carry on. But after getting @#$ed I have the right to complain that my bum is now sore.

As for brokenness, I'm not sure who our go to warlock is right now. It might be Lylyth due to her feat and Parasite. The first is one of the few ranged buffs we have left, and the second hugely ratchets up damage potential. Classic Seraphspam might be possible, or perhaps dual Carniveans Assaulting in.

Absylonia is very solid, but she doesn't help with any of our beasts ranged attacks and has some deadly bad mathups. She also lacks the hard kill condition that Lylyth has. She might be more of a scenario warlock that wins through attrition.

Elylyth is kind of all over the place now. I'd have to play her more to figure out what she's trying to do. The first trick that comes to mind is Pursuit to move up, spray with Typhon, and then use the Stingers animus to run away again. not exactly something to hang your army on though.

Thagrosh is still about attrition. Try to draw that killbox game out and win by having more points in the box due to his feat.

Saeryn can try the old Angelius atttack run, but it's a tougher set up these days. I'd take wither Raptors or Striders + UA for support and then try to just jam them up with beasts on the feat turn before ripping things up.

Rhyas can do the Rapport + Feat + Massacre bounce with a Carnivean or Scythean. I don't think she's ever goingto bring the fear though.

EThagrosh is the same but more one dimensional. The sprays are gone and now it's Shredderspam all the way backed up with a Scythean. If the Spell Martyrs act like an arc node so he can actually use Scourge I can see sprays return though.

[Kalaris]

First off, I don't think anyone would berate you for making this thread, its commendable, we're all still knee-jerking from the shocking nerfs, and even more shocking lack of fixes on things we've been telling them are underpowered, I think we'll come together, in the end... (more on this later)

The following people may or may not agree with, but I hope the point I am trying to make overshadows that. We, imo, are the weakest faction right now. Does that make us suck? No. Do we have to adapt? Yes.

I completely agree, we are the weakest faction right now, and while I am guilty of a bit of venting in the other threads, I think a good bit of steam letting off isn't too bad, I'm done I'm over it, I'm going to put down the models *I* don't think are worth playing, and come up with some other stuff... I'm currently looking at Absylonia as one of our best casters, with a certain combination of beasts, other then obviously Ethags + Scythean + shredderspam

I have a challenge for every Legion player out there. Make everyone you play think Legion is broken again. I want the boards to be filled with posts about how Legion is broken and how they hate playing us. I want us to work together to make the other factions hate us even more than they did in MK I. We have a lot of work to do to get there, but we have done it in the past and can do it again.

I am kind of scared to do this, I feel like we're still being punished for the glory days of MK1 (which I never got to play in) I made a post about 6 months ago when I was shocked about how bad I was doing against WM and how we kept getting nerfed, and the players in my local meta, nae people I considered my FRIENDS, were actually happy that we were getting nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again, me as a new player unable to understand why. Also didn't help I was the ONLY hordes player period. Everyone else was warmachine.

I came to this board seeking help, and I found it great advice, and now, I've beaten all of those guys, with our new nerfed models (and let me tell you it wasn't easy).

I think I'm over the knee jerk reaction now, honestly none of the nerfs even effected models I use that much (I put down typhon a few months ago w/ abby) and I only did sprays of destiny once.

I do worry that if we manage to meet your challenge, we'll hear cries of oh my god that's gross, and we'll take further nerfs (or lack of buffs in our new book) and we'll be disheartened again.

I mean look at temple con, we're not much weaker then we were there, someone wins big with LoE and bam NERFS.

The other thing that keeps creeping in my mind, is I play my @#$$% off to win with everblight, I now win about 7/10 games but I keep wondering if I played as hard with Cryx or Menoth, would I be even better?

BUT I don't own Cryx or Menoth, so its time to slug on with Legion...

So how do we get started?

[Creaux]

Nice post.

[PyroSikTh]

I do worry that if we manage to meet your challenge, we'll hear cries of oh my god that's gross, and we'll take further nerfs (or lack of buffs in our new book) and we'll be disheartened again.

I mean look at temple con, we're not much weaker then we were there, someone wins big with LoE and bam NERFS.

Chances of that are very slim. Final cards are set in print now, so don't expect much, if anything, to change to existing models until Mk.III, no matter how many people we send crying. The few changes that were made in Warmachine post-final cards were either on new models, or were genuine mistakes and oversights on the cards.

[frozenwastes]

One thing I'm happy about is that everything is done. No more stats and abilities swinging back and forth. We'll only have ***!? moments on new releases rather than on the whole army.

[Mad_Zerker]

5 years? Has it been that long already?

As soon as Hordes came out, Legion was my first choice, Skorne my second. Bought 2 battleboxes for both. As time went on I must admit, wings was a bit much the way it was. I really felt it was too easy to win with a winged list. I either played non-winged heavy infantry lists, or Skorne because it was more challenging. Im one of those people who like to take the models most say suck (Rhyas is looking tempting for me, and PThaggy was always my fav) so when I pull out wins with them, they are sweet and savory. Im all for the new challenge honestly. we still have solid choices imo, both troop and beast.

Good topic.

[Soul King]

Yes, after all, the last thing that people should do is dare to read alternate views before forming their own opinions. And the idea that experienced players who may have a clue what they are talking about should certainly be ignored in favor of mindless optimism.

Yes life will carry on. But after getting @#$ed I have the right to complain that my bum is now sore.

but when that alternate view influences a person's decision on how to play this game, who to play it with, and ultimately, their self esteem, then that is when it becomes demoralizing and unfair

MINDLESS OPTIMISM!? because I dont like you telling me that some of my favorite warlocks who I win most of my games with, and because I find that the Legion forums have become as depressing as hell, you say that this is mindless optimism?

You know what? I dont care anymore. I dont need YOU to tell me how to play my game. Why I even torture myself listen to you people berating me for playing a certain way is beyond me. I'll be back in a couple of weeks, maybe that will give everyone enough time to cool down and get on with their lives

[PyroSikTh]

Soul King...just dropping it I think would be the wisest idea. He's obviously having a dig at you for the sake of having a dig at you. No need to stoop to his level.

[Defenstrator]

You know what? I dont care anymore. I dont need YOU to tell me how to play my game. Why I even torture myself listen to you people berating me for playing a certain way is beyond me. I'll be back in a couple of weeks, maybe that will give everyone enough time to cool down and get on with their lives

And I don't need YOU to tell me how to play MY game. Stop complaining about other people having a different opinion than you. If you look at my post at least I actually had some suggestions of what we might do with our various warlocks rather than just crying about other peoples attitude. Don't just tell me Rhyas is great. Show me and everybody else how you are winning with her. How you are dealing with the issues that other top tier warlocks/casters are presenting to you. You say Rhyas is great and I'm ready to believe you. But I'm not just going to take your word because that has not been my own experiance. You're going to have to get off your high horse and prove it.

[Nargacuga]

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance <--[You are here]


The fact that we will all eventually accept this (or quit) doesn't mean that Legion didn't get the proverbial shaft.

[PyroSikTh]

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance <--[You are here]


The fact that we will all eventually accept this (or quit) doesn't mean that Legion didn't get the proverbial shaft.

You know, those stages of grief actually fit me REALLY well.

At first I was in disbelief and wanted to wait to see it for myself.
Then when it was confirmed I was angry at a change or 2.
Then I started offering alternatives that would be better for everyone
Then I started getting depressed at the implosion occurring on these boards
Now people seem to be catching up to my acceptance of the changes.

[Kalaris]

I mean we'll get "nerfed" in our legion book by our new stuff being less powerful.

Maybe we should just make a thread, "making rhyas work" -- cause really we're never going to agree on how good she is or isn't, to competitive players she's easily rolled over, and to players who love her, she's awesome and amazing and she never loses.

Do one for all the casters, back and forth, back in my 40k days we did something like this in bolter and chainsword for everything in the daemon book, it was quite helpful and in the end was complied into a very helpful how to guide sticky.

I feel bad for anyone who starts legion today, we might as well band together and give them the best tools available.

[PyroSikTh]

Maybe we should just make a thread, "making rhyas work" -- cause really we're never going to agree on how good she is or isn't, to competitive players she's easily rolled over, and to players who love her, she's awesome and amazing and she never loses.

Do one for all the casters, back and forth

Check out the Retribution forum, they're in the process of doing that now. Compiling comprehensive tactica's on each individual caster/jack/unit/solo/attachment

[Neutralyze]

we said it would happen after the cards are out. i guess its time to start.

[PyroSikTh]

we said it would happen after the cards are out. i guess its time to start.

I'd advise leaving Typhon, eThags, eLyl and to a lesser extent Legionnaires and Carnivean for a month or so first, just to make sure ample testing has been made with the changes.

[frozenwastes]

I'd advise leaving Typhon, eThags, eLyl and to a lesser extent Legionnaires and Carnivean for a month or so first, just to make sure ample testing has been made with the changes.

But it's in print. The testing is done. Those are the stats. PP has only changed printed stats when they were errors. Do you think any of the changes are actually errors?

[Defenstrator]

He means play with them a bit with their new stats before trying to write a definateive tactica on them.

[frozenwastes]

But there's a fine tradition in every faction forum of writing tactica without actually playing them first

You are right though. It'd be nice to see tactica articles written by people who have used the items in question.

[Shadowspite]

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance <--[You are here]

I skipped straight to 5.

I've played Legion since they came out, I intend to play them until the entire game is dead. I'm conflicted to see whether I want to play in genesis with Rhyas or eLylyth ATM. partially just to see that they are just fine.

[The Nightwalker]

If we're lucky the spell martyrs will add some oomph to spellcasting that'll make Elyl's change manageable. I hope they don't autoexplode when they do something (the whole martyr theme convinces me that theyre exepndable but I'm hoping not) like boost a spell. If they could bust out some cool perfect conjunction coven style I'd be really really in the game with that.

[KingofHearts]

I just don't know if I want to play the only not broken faction in a game completely composed of broken factions. Perhaps you will have a great deal of fun adapting I think I'll keep the models I painted and chose a new faction. Perhaps the new releases will change my mind, perhaps MK3 will come out and the legion will get the fixes it needs but as it stands I don't see playing legion as a lot of fun. I will instead play a faction that is as equally broken as all the others, you know a balanced one.

[PG_Countmoore]

Here here! I'm right behind you,

T

[alchahest]

I think you need to start playing the game with the changes that've been made. it's been what, a day or two and people are already talking about getting rid of their armies? it's kind of embarassing to be a legion player with all this Doom flying around. the vast majority of our models remain untouched by the CATASTROPHIC WORLD ENDING NERFS. you can still have absylonia make invincible angelius and two-handed throwing raeks, you can still use vayl to completely control the field, you can still use saeryn to be boss as hell at everything she does, pthags and ethags are still both awesome, and let's face it even Rhyas isn't unusable. I've now seen her take down casters way out of her league. just play with your toys and find out how to win.

[Yertle4]

Good post Blitz, the changes thread was getting awfully whiny.

Now we have to man up and play like we have a pair, or man up and die at the hands of Molik.

[The Nightwalker]

which at this stage is likely

[Kommissar Golovko]

Yep, play the models first. I'm even playing usual list of eThags, Typhon and company for a few more games, then switching over to Absylonia and maybe Rhyas though I don't have Swordsmen.

[Soul King]

And I don't need YOU to tell me how to play MY game. Stop complaining about other people having a different opinion than you. If you look at my post at least I actually had some suggestions of what we might do with our various warlocks rather than just crying about other peoples attitude. Don't just tell me Rhyas is great. Show me and everybody else how you are winning with her. How you are dealing with the issues that other top tier warlocks/casters are presenting to you. You say Rhyas is great and I'm ready to believe you. But I'm not just going to take your word because that has not been my own experiance. You're going to have to get off your high horse and prove it.

all right I will: Examples of games I've played with her

In every game I've played with Ryhas in Mk.II, Ryhas has done a lot to support her army. I've played 2 100 point games with her, and one 50 point game. In the first 100 point game, a giant wall with one central opening and one side opening on each end divided the table. I played against Reznik and Harby, and Ryhas was able to get the majority of my army up close to defend the wall before any of the menites came. As the game progressed, pLylyth took to the right most flank with striders and warbeasts to deal with bastions, vilmon imperv group, and a seneschal, so she didnt see much action. Meanwhile, Ryhas single-handedly supported the remaining 55% of the army, withstood 2 assasination attempts, and assasinated both warcasters.

In the other 100 point, it was ELylyth and her vs. EFeora and EKreoss. ELylyth died about halfway through from something, I cant remember what at the moment. Ryhas had the right flank and was fighting against an entire unit of errants, bastions, cinerators, and flameguard with a scythean, some shredders, a neph soldier, the pot, a warchief, a few warmongers and a full unit of swordsmen. Ryhas got the unit into combat with dash, and took out quite a few. The following turn, she blew her feat, and the remaining part of the army began to cut massive swaths through the infantry, accumulating about 9 blood tokens, which spawned lessers to distract the approaching left flank. Ryhas then charged EFeora, and after 3 hits, decapitated her, and with nowhere else to go, I had to choose the safest place which was right behind a choir, and a revenger. Unfortunately I died, but ELylyth died on turn 3/7, and for the remaining 3-4 rounds, Ryhas held off 3-4 full units of knights and flameguard, distracted a good number of stuff with some rinky dink 2 point shredders, and assasinated one warcaster. If ELylyth had done her job a little better, the results might have been a little different, but I cant change the past

The 50 point game had me against cygnar, and I was in a position to win the next turn before my enemy had to go. I had scrapped one stormclad with swordsmen, damaged another with the warchief, and was in a position to charge the warcaster the next turn

Reflection: Ryhas can do a lot to support her army. She has to play things close to the chest, but no one is without their problems. In the two 100 point games I played with her, she was able to hold her own against two warcasters, and while the second one didnt end so well, she was able to hold out with maybe 45-55% of the army left against 80-85% of the Menite army

[Necra-Chi]

Blitz. Why should I bother. Whenever we take something rubbish and wreck people with it, we just get that thing nerfed. And it will happen again.

The reason Rhyas can't be better is because she can already still do things that make a scrub think she's overpowered. But scrubs would rather ***** and complain to PP than learn to play. And it seems PP listens to them.

[blitzmonkey]

Blitz. Why should I bother. Whenever we take something rubbish and wreck people with it, we just get that thing nerfed. And it will happen again.

The reason Rhyas can't be better is because she can already still do things that make a scrub think she's overpowered. But scrubs would rather ***** and complain to PP than learn to play. And it seems PP listens to them.

Honestly? To rebel. To say step off. To make them have to do a MKIII. I don't consider Soles or DC to be friends of Legion players. And I want to re-enforce that. I want them to regret pissing us off. I want them to have to nerf us. I want to make their lives a living hell with a thread of complaints about how broken Legion is because good players like you break it. People ***** and moan about Legion being a negative play experience to play against. While I don't want there to be a ton of negative experiences, I still want people to fear playing us. Legion is my main and only serious faction. And I'll be damned if I will let the designers get away with this.


This is my inspiration. We still function. Necra, you want to know the concise answer? Why should you? So we can make them eat their words.

EDIT: For clarification's sake, this isn't meant to incite rage or ill-contempt for PP or its designers. This is merely me trying to state we can play the "Woe is me" card or we can use it. Instead of being pissed off and depressed, we can channel our collective anger to something more positive in my opinion.

[Kalaris]

Blitz. Why should I bother. Whenever we take something rubbish and wreck people with it, we just get that thing nerfed. And it will happen again.

The reason Rhyas can't be better is because she can already still do things that make a scrub think she's overpowered. But scrubs would rather ***** and complain to PP than learn to play. And it seems PP listens to them.

Scrubs can't Play to win, can't play to win.

I feel like I'm about to get Absylonia nerfed.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I think you need to start playing the game with the changes that've been made. it's been what, a day or two and people are already talking about getting rid of their armies?

Actually for some of us it's been 5 months. I wasn't happy back in Jan 29th, but I kept faith hoping that the final cards would sort things out. 5 months later the cards are here, for me nothing has changed.

[The Nightwalker]

You know blitz you make a good point. It IS a good reason to play...because no matter what terrible pieces we're stuck with, we can still win. We ARE that good.