Seraph, Slipstream and "Lurker Animus".

[Thunder_God]

Here is the setup:
We play a team game, I play Legion, my friend plays Skorne.

The Basilisk Drake casts "Lurker" on the Seraph. The Seraph activates, shoots, casts Slipstream and walks away, also bouncing another model.

Does it work?

Why I'm even asking: Seraph has bushwhack, Seraph shoots, now Seraph should get to move, as a result of having bushwhack, but if I cast Slipstream, does Lurker expire, denying me the movement?

[eliassmith27]

a model can be affected one friendly, and one enemy animus at the same time. Slipstream does not cancel an enemy animus.

[drugar101]

I am pretty sure he means the skorne and legion players are on same team. So the skorne 'Lurker' animus is a friendly animus. The lurker animus expires the second you put slipstream on it. I am just not sure if you still get to make you advance afterwords or not. Seems like you might since you haven't used your movement yet.

[PG_Rave0183]

I am pretty sure he means the skorne and legion players are on same team. So the skorne 'Lurker' animus is a friendly animus. The lurker animus expires the second you put slipstream on it. I am just not sure if you still get to make you advance afterwords or not. Seems like you might since you haven't used your movement yet.

I believe this would be correct.

[Thunder_God]

That's the question, do you get to move, or do you not?

[blue loki]

No you do not get to move.
The moment you cast Slipstream on the Seraph, it loses Bushwhack. Since it no longer has Bushwhack, it must complete its movement phase before its action phase. Since the Seraph has already completed its action phase, to take a movement phase at this point would be illegal.

[Thunder_God]

What if we replace the Seraph with an Angelius? The Slipstream animus "remains" until after the movement, but Repulsion is an instanenous action. It happens, and then it's gone.

I mean, a model can only have one animus on it at any time. Repulsion is never "on" the Angelius, so to speak. Heck, the whole "Be affected by one animus" is slightly ambiguous, unlike upkeep spells where it basically means "Have one cast at you".

[blue loki]

Simple. From the Field Test PDF:

"If another friendly animus is cast on a model or unit the older friendly animus expires and is replaced by the new one when the affected model is hit by the animus."

The moment you are hit by an animus (hit being part of the animus casting resolution), the old animus expires.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

What if we replace the Seraph with an Angelius? The Slipstream animus "remains" until after the movement, but Repulsion is an instanenous action. It happens, and then it's gone.

I mean, a model can only have one animus on it at any time. Repulsion is never "on" the Angelius, so to speak. Heck, the whole "Be affected by one animus" is slightly ambiguous, unlike upkeep spells where it basically means "Have one cast at you".

This would be the same thing, the moment the Angelius forces to use its animus, Lurker will expire on the Angelius. While it is true that Repulsion is an effect and is never "on" the Angelius (in the way that a continuous animus like Tenacity would be), the fact that Repulsion is RNG Self, means that the animus is cast on the Angelius. A similar thing would happen if a Feral Warpwolf with Tracker on it cast Baying of Chaos. Tracker would expire.

[PG_Tionas]

also: it could happen in a non-team game. Didn't they give Lurker to the stinger?

[Thunder_God]

They did. I tried to avoid using an unreleased model. But that's just the set-up.

[Shadowspite]

so, by extension, the Woldwarden +stalker trick described http://privateerpressforums.com/show...dwarden+sprint
here would not work correct?

as the sprint animus would be negated the instant Wild Growth was cast as it is a range of self as well.

I also don't see a problem using the stinger in the example, sure the model itself hasn't been released, but the rules for it have.

[blitzmonkey]

so, by extension, the Woldwarden +stalker trick described http://privateerpressforums.com/show...dwarden+sprint
here would not work correct?

as the sprint animus would be negated the instant Wild Growth was cast as it is a range of self as well.

I also don't see a problem using the stinger in the example, sure the model itself hasn't been released, but the rules for it have.

I believe it is the case that the example in that thread does not work, as you are still targeting a warbeast with an animus.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Surely there is the argument that Bushwhack just "opens the door" to reversing your activation.

Thus you declare your "bushwhacking" and take your action, you are now done the path of bushwhacking thus even if another animus come in your still good.

An analogy for you.

You put Massacre on something so it can charge without forcing, you move, you activate your own animi. Since you have not made your attack yet your still charging. By the rational above you either

A, now have to gain a fury since your no longer benefiting Massacre or
B, can not make your charge attack as your no longer charging because you haven't been forced.

[blitzmonkey]

Surely there is the argument that Bushwhack just "opens the door" to reversing your activation.

Thus you declare your "bushwhacking" and take your action, you are now done the path of bushwhacking thus even if another animus come in your still good.

An analogy for you.

You put Massacre on something so it can charge without forcing, you move, you activate your own animi. Since you have not made your attack yet your still charging. By the rational above you either

A, now have to gain a fury since your no longer benefiting Massacre or
B, can not make your charge attack as your no longer charging because you haven't been forced.

No, that is not right. As you have already made your charge movement, you have passed that step.

What a better example would be putting massacre on the Angel and then charging. Once you are in melee, you use repulsion, then kill something. Massacre is no longer on you, so you do not get the movement or extra attack.

EDIT: To further clarify, I don't think anything in Warmachine/Hordes is retroactive besides illegal moves.

[Thunder_God]

Actually, Massacre has two parts. What if after the charge movement but before the charge attack you activate a different animus? And then kill the enemy model with the charge attack.

Well, I think we agree you probably lose the second part.

Which is what was said, yes.

[blitzmonkey]

Actually, Massacre has two parts. What if after the charge movement but before the charge attack you activate a different animus? And then kill the enemy model with the charge attack.

Well, I think we agree you probably lose the second part.

Which is what was said, yes.

Yeah, but you explained it better.

[ShockwaveIIC]

No, that is not right. As you have already made your charge movement, you have passed that step.

What a better example would be putting massacre on the Angel and then charging. Once you are in melee, you use repulsion, then kill something. Massacre is no longer on you, so you do not get the movement or extra attack.

I never mentioned that part because A, it is obvious that parts of an animus yet to kick in are lost (Don't jump to conclusions). B, It is irrelevant to this example.

Now in regards to jumping to conclusions. The animus grants "bushwhack" it then goes on to explain what bushwhack is. So my point is that once you have declared that you are bushwhacking and have taken your action (before your movement) you are now under the effects bushwhack not lurker per se, removal/ replacement of the animus is at this point unimportant.


Lets say I give you permission to pick something up at 4pm, so you do. Removal of that permission is irrelevant after 4pm as you are no longer picking it up, but are now holding it. It's too late.

[blitzmonkey]

I never mentioned that part because A, it is obvious that parts of an animus yet to kick in are lost (Don't jump to conclusions). B, It is irrelevant to this example.

Now in regards to jumping to conclusions. The animus grants "bushwhack" it then goes on to explain what bushwhack is. So my point is that once you have declared that you are bushwhacking and have taken your action (before your movement) you are now under the effects bushwhack not lurker per se, removal/ replacement of the animus is at this point unimportant.


Lets say I give you permission to pick something up at 4pm, so you do. Removal of that permission is irrelevant after 4pm as you are no longer picking it up, but are now holding it. It's too late.

Using a real world example to describe an in game mechanic may or may not be helpful. In this case, I don't think that analogy is descriptive of the situation at hand.

[ShockwaveIIC]

EDIT: To further clarify, I don't think anything in Warmachine/Hordes is retroactive besides illegal moves.

That was my point. You've declared bushwhack and confirmed that by taking your action, you are now bushwhacking. Baring an effect which specifically stops you from moving (which this isn't) your good.

[blitzmonkey]

That was my point. You've declared bushwhack and confirmed that by taking your action, you are now bushwhacking. Baring an effect which specifically stops you from moving (which this isn't) your good.

But you are doing that. You get lurker. You can do your action before you move. You attack or do whatever. You then use repulsion or whatever, thus replacing your Lurker Animus. At this point, can we agree that Lurker is overwritten?

At this point, you no longer have the affect in play that allows you to take your move action, thus reverting back to the standard move before action. As you have already done your action, your move phased has already passed.

For the record, I hope and pray I am wrong.

[ShockwaveIIC]

But you are doing that. You get lurker. You can do your action before you move. You attack or do whatever. You then use repulsion or whatever, thus replacing your Lurker Animus. At this point, can we agree that Lurker is overwritten?

At this point, you no longer have the affect in play that allows you to take your move action, thus reverting back to the standard move before action. As you have already done your action, your move phased has already passed.

For the record, I hope and pray I am wrong.

I understand you point. Your saying you need access to the ability the entire time. I'm saying you only need it to activate the ability.

[Thunder_God]

I think both sides had been presented. Unless anyone has nothing new to add, maybe a purple will drop by, or a red.

[Macallan]

Checking...

[Macallan]

We end up with an activation where the model has no movement, such as when a model can't move.

[ShockwaveIIC]

We end up with an activation where the model has no movement, such as when a model can't move.

Erm, sorry Macallan.

Can you put that in to context please?

[Mod_Redphantasm]

A model with lurker activates and chooses to take it's action first, as per bushwack.
It makes it's attack, then forces itself to use it's animus (be it slipstream, repulsion, Spiny Growth, what have you)
This animus replaces lurker, and the model now no longer has bushwack.
Without bushwack, it cannot make it's move after its action
The model's activation ends.

In short, blitzmonkey was right.

[PG_Mootaz]

RedPhantasm describes it correctly.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Fair enough.