Tactica: Venator Reivers

[Pink Foam!]

I will be mimicking Maynards color system to rank synergy with our Venator Reivers, though I have eliminated the "Red" tier for the unit. For those of you who are unfamiliar:

Brown - Little to no synergy with the model(s) in question. They may have potential, but not without outside assistance (IE another model buffing them/debuffing enemies).

Green - Decent synergy. Has the potential to be good given certain circumstances.

Blue - Superior match. These models have abilities and stats that directly complement each other or were made to be played with each other.

Red will indicate a new segment.

With that out of the way I will begin.

Overview

Venator Reivers are the go-to Skorne ranged unit. In a culture that values honor over anything else, the Reivers have found themselves pretty low on the Skorne food chain. They have, however, begun to earn respect among their comrades as the importance of ranged combat has become increasingly more important in the Skorne campaign in the west.

The Reivers, as mentioned, are a staple ranged unit. They do not have many fancy tricks by themselves, but if used properly they are more than capable of making their presence be felt on the battlefield.

Stats

The Reivers are lightly armored, allowing them to be a fairly mobile firing force with their average speed. They sport low STR and MAT stats, but both of those are irrelevant to our firing squad. Their RAT is a bit on the low end at 5, but they are capable of mitigating that without an outside source. They have fairly average defense and have sub-par armor, falling to AOEs fairly easily if left unprotected. Their command is average (below-par for Skorne) at a score of 8 and they are a bit pricey for basic infantry at 5/9 points for 6/10 infantrymen.


Weapons and Equipment
Reivers come armed (as their name might imply to those skilled in detection) with reivers. A reiver is essentially Skorne's answer to western rifles. The Venator's guns have decent range at 12'' which gives them a threat range of 18''. Their POW is a bit low at a score of 10, but the gun receives +1 to its damage rolls against medium based models and +2 to its damage rolls against large base models. Not game breaking, but nifty. The weapons are ROF1 and each Reiver comes equipped with one gun.

Reivers are also equipped with a basic sword, but at MAT5 and POW8 it should only be used in dire circumstances.


Abilities
Venator Reivers themselves only have one innate ability and it is the only thing that keeps them from being a below-average unit: Combined Ranged Attack. This, as most of us know, allows multiple Venators to combine their fire on a single target. Mixed with Burst Fire (the bonus damage vs larger bases) this allows the unit to build up damage quickly; six of them hitting a large based model for a POW18 attack. This also makes them passable against non-stealthed infantrymen, though you will have to at least combine in pairs to get results and are then (depending on the situation) using resources poorly.


Synergy: Units
The following is a overall rating of how much synergy the Venator Reivers have with other Skorne units. To those of you who may not know synergy is just a way of saying how well one component works with another.

Cataphract Arcuarii - The Arcuarii are, themselves, a ranged unit and are likely to be flanking your opponent. I would not recommend using them to babysit your Reivers.

Cataphract Cetratii - A solid wall to put between you and the enemy. The only problem is you cannot shoot through their medium bases (unless firing at a large base). There are ways to allow your units to draw line of sight through each other, so this problem is not insurmountable.

Immortals - Not a lot going on here. Immortals excel at receiving charges then countering in return. You may use them to defend your Reivers but I would never do so if a better option was available.

[COLOR="Sienna"Blo]Paingiver odrunners -[/COLOR] I'm sure your stealthy DEF14/ARM11 ninja assassins will do a marvelous job supporting your gunline. Smells like sarcasm.

Paingiver Beast Handlers - Two units made to do perform completely different tasks. The Paingivers may not mind having an extra line of bodies in front of them though.

Praetorian Ferox - This unit is designed to operate on its own. Their high speed will quickly leave the Venators in the dust. The Venators may soften a target up for them first, but it is nothing a different unit wouldn't be able to do.

Praetorian Karax - Plenty of bodies to protect your flimsy gunmen, decent enough armor to potentially stay there, girded to save said flimsy gunmen from blast damage, these guys are where its at for supporting Reivers. They need no external buffs to form their ranks and block charges/LOS to your Reivers.

Praetorian Swordsmen - With their unit attachment your Reivers may shoot through your Swordsmen. If you plan to employ this tactic you are, however, spending more points on a unit that will be less effective at guarding your ranged units.

Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer - Excellent unit to have in tow of your Venators. Their normal-move-speed buff will allow your Reivers an even greater threat range (20'') as well as giving them pathfinder if needed. They can also cause units to stand up, but that ability is not likely to see a lot of use on our non-tough Reivers.

Venator Catapult Crew - While they do both reside in the same caste; the Catapult and the Reivers do not have much to go on aside from them both being ranged units. The Venator Catapult Crew can, however, take advantage of many of the same synergies that the Reivers themselves enjoy. IE: It only takes one unit of Karax to block your Catapult and your Reivers.


Solos
There is no one solo that terribly stands out when thinking of the Reivers. There are some solos who can take advantage of the Reivers, though the relationship may not be mutual (it may be parasitic even).

Agonizer - I hesitated to even consider this green. The debuffs to warbeasts will most likely not be able to save your Reivers should that Warpwolf manage to get its hands on them. The focus negation, however, can stop your Reivers from getting toppled like a house of cards by a warjack. Without focus to boost most warjacks will also only hit 50% of the time, give or take.

Ancestral Guardian - This is the aforementioned parasite. He can do a decent job at protecting the Reivers, but you probably won't want him way in the back. The Reivers will provide souls for him to munch on if you "fail" to protect them.

Extoller Soulward - Like the Ancestral Guardian the Extoller Soulward has a parasitic relationship with the Venator Reivers in that it can receive souls from them when/if they perish. As pointed out by Indragnir, the granted Eyeless Sight and Magical Weapon properties will only affect one model, and only one model will benefit from the effects if you decide to make combined ranged attacks. The ability is better used on other models, specifically a single ranged model such as the Titan Canonneer, Basilisk Drake, or any single model that needs LOS to charge into a forest.

Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor - Not a lot to do here. They both kill things, but neither model(s) can do anything to directly support the other. The Master Tormentor will actually engage units giving them +4DEF against your Reivers. Not a great combo.

Void Spirit - See "Master Tormentor".

Tyrant Rhadeim This was orange initially, but with his Commander ability to keep your Reivers in check, and a heavy hitting attack to finish off a big target (something the Reivers are good at damaging) I placed him in the midfield for synergy. He is a bit pricey so I would consider other options before Rhadeim himself.

[Pink Foam!]

Warlocks
No Warlock has been a Venator them self (though I would LOVE to see one) and thus not all of them offer much support to the Reivers.

Master Tormentor Morghoul (pMorghoul) - The Master Tormentor (the original and still the best!) doesn't do much to aid the Reivers. He himself may value a decent speed ranged unit however. pMorghoul's feat can set up an assassination against an enemy warlock; disallowing the transference of damage for one round.

Lord Assassin Morghoul (eMorghoul) - He would be green if his "Silence of Death" spell had not been changed to affect melee only. eMorghoul's feat grants the Reivers a good defense stat, but better models could certainly be taken to support our "One-Man-Army" warlock.

Archdomina Makeda (pMakeda) - Makeda herself may not offer much to the Reivers aside from making them fearless, but she does so much for all of the units that Reivers have synergy with that she made the green list. If played properly her feat can also keep the Reivers running strong as they are not likely to be entirely wiped out in one turn.

Supreme Archdomina Makeda (eMakeda) - eMakeda can give the Reivers a speed boost with her Road to War spell which, when stacked with the Tyrant commanders ability, gives the Reivers a 22'' threat range. eMakeda's feat is strictly for melee troops, so unless you want your Reivers to get their hand's dirty the blood work is best left to your melee troops.

Lord Tyrant Hexeris - Hexeris does not play too well with Reivers. He does benefit from enemy models dying on his feat turn, and Reivers can reach many things that Swordsmen and Cetratii cannot, so I could see someone using them with him, but not as a first unit choice.

Tyrant Xerxis - A blue one! Xerxis has an excellent "All the Time" ability that allows your friendly living models to draw line of sight/move through friendly models while in his command range (which is 9). Nifty. Xerxis does an excellent job supporting other units that Reivers have synergy with as well. The good Tyrant's feat does not give the Reivers the terrific damage burst that it offers melee troops, but it does still give them the +2 armor (if they are in base to base with a friendly Skorne model) which can help protect them from AOE and light ranged/melee attacks.

HannibalTheGreat Note: Don't forget Xerxis' "Inhospitable Ground" spell! While it does cost a fair chunk of Xerxis' fury, the benefit of having all of his control area turned into rough terrain will undoubtedly serve the Venator Reivers well by keeping the opponent out of their faces and thus keeping their guns firing.

Supreme Aptimus Zaal - There's better unit choices out there for Zaal, but Zaal loves him some Skorne warrior models.

Thunder_God note: I (Pink Foam, not Thunder) have placed an enormous importance on protecting the Reivers thus far and as such Zaal DOES offer the Reivers a fair chance at surviving blast damage by knocking them up to ARM 15 (surviving POW16 blasts on average rolls) with Inviolable Resolve. This also makes them fearless to boot, mitigating their low (for Skorne) CMD score.

Void Seer Mordikaar - Mordikaar. This was a tough one. Mordikaar should NOT be using his spells on the Venators immediately, BUT if/once their "guardian" unit (the one that should have hollow on it) perishes they make an excellent second candidate for the spells recipient. The addition of tough also makes the Tyrant Commanders "revielle" ability actually see some use. Mordikaar's feat puts the Reivers at well above average defense at a DEF score of 16 as well as granting them the Poltergeist ability; a ability they are likely to use with their new found upped defense.

Warbeasts
The Reivers do not have any direct support that ties into most warbeasts and I will therefor not be covering most of them. Consider any warbeast not mentioned here NEUTRAL in terms of synergy with the Venator Reivers.

Basilisk Krea - The Krea offers a decent animus that can help safeguard your Reivers from ranged assaults, while not putting herself in harms way.

Cyclops Shaman - Can eliminate enemy upkeep spells on your Reivers. Since Reivers will typically be in the back, this ability may not see much use, but it is handy to have.

Razorwurm - The Razorwurm can use its animus (Bomb Shelter) to make your Venators completely immune to blast damage! Since blast damage is a weakness with them, this is really handy to have. The animus also only costs 1 fury, so it is not difficult to get it onto the entire unit, spending up to three fury to affect three models at a time if need be (models in base to base with an affected model also gain the effect of not suffering blast damage) to cover the entire unit.

And that is our Venator Reivers in a large nutshell. The Reivers get a bad rap sometimes, but if you apply them correctly and plan extensively they will serve you well. There are other, better, ranged units in the other factions. Do not ever lie to yourself about that. But, our Reivers can find themselves having shockingly high mobility, and the thick armor that Skorne is known for between them and what would have been death. Get a minimum unit and try them out; they're a good change of pace if nothing else.

So that's my first tactica. I had plenty of good models to build it off of, so thanks to everyone who has made a Skorne tactica before me.

[Thunder_God]

The light shiny colours really hurt the eyes. Please consider all colours being on the darker spectrum?
I'm sure we can find a solid red, green and blue.

[Pink Foam!]

Ask and ye shall receive.

[Pink Foam!]

And voila. How is the article itself?

[Thunder_God]

1. Seems neat
2. I'd still trade Orange for Red.

Some thoughts:
If protection from blast damage is so important, where are the mentions of say, Inviolable Resolve from Zaal on the unit? ARM 15 survives on average blast from POW 16 weapons, as opposed to POW 12 on base Reivers.
That the Praetorians usually don't stick next to the Reivers does not make them not good supporters, but yeah, no Girded.
BRMT is actually detrimental to the Reivers, engaging multiple models in melee, and making it harder to shoot.

The Reivers are actually not as bad as some other shooty units when it comes to melee. If they are engaged in melee and going to die anyway, Zaal's Last Stand actually makes them hit pretty hard, and if they charge, they can kill stuff.

Also, there are almost always better choices, but Defender's Ward on two casters can make them not only more surviveable, but potentially double up as a tar-pit unit (an expensive one, though). Also, I'm not sure how you rank these things, and sure, Makeda doesn't give them anything extra, but her Feat can still save their bacon.

Seems solid, otherwise.

[planescapedm]

All I wanted to change from fieldtest to cards was for the reivers to be 5/8 and some small buff to the catapult. The reivers should have been 5/8 with auto ranked attacks. The catapult needs AOE 5" or burst fire. I guess skorne really is suppose to pay a premium for ranged units.

[Pink Foam!]

Thunder, the idea was that if there was another unit who could unquestioningly benefit more from a spell (a melee unit in Zaal's case) then the Reivers were clearly not designed for that use. One of the biggest weaknesses of Reivers in my experience is things that can out range them and AOEs; that is why I have placed such a high importance on blocking LOS and protecting them from blast damage. I am rating them based off personal experience with the models (which is fairly extensive in some cases) and my experience with the models who I am rating them with. I will admit to not having every Skorne model so I am more than willing to make changes to the page.

On that note I am making amends to the models that you have mentioned. I appreciate the input and will continue to update the page as more is received; I don't claim to be the final say in what is an what isn't in regards to any model.

[viperidae99]

Min Karax with Min Venators behind them, in base to base, seems like a solid 9pt unit that's fairly hardy with blast immunity and arm18 front, has ranged punch through itself, and even has a tolerable melee ability. Sprays will probably upset you, but hey, sprays upset everyone. Add Krea as desired. Seems like fun.

I'll be trying out the Venators in my next game, probably with a Catapult or two to boot. It's almost liberating knowing that I don't need to worry about buffs for them, as they simply don't get any.

[Pink Foam!]

I would hesitate to use the Catapult in 35 point or lower games personally. If ranged combatants form the underwear of Skorne then indirect fire support forges the skid marks on said underpants.

If sprays are a problem at your meta bring a Krea to help mitigate the effect though don't expect to get terribly lucky. I definatly agree that sprays are a big weakness since there isn't really a great way to combat them. Best of luck with your Venator test

[Indragnir]

Pink Foam!,

IMO arm 13 is not sub-par ARM, it's average Arm, in Hordes there more units with Arm 13 or below than units with ARM 14 or better (including Cav. and Meddium bases units).

About Extoller: you cannot combine a magical weapon with non-magical weapons in a Combined Ranged Attack. So either you make 1 magical attack alone or you combine all normal attacks.

About Mordikaar: I've great success using Venators with him... as flank holders: I deploy them against melee infantry units, (I put hollow on them the turn before they got attacked, I always let one venator 3-4 inches behind). They force enemy units to rush or seek protecction. Eventually enemy charge in, the remaining venator(s) are used on essence blast destroying very much the opponent's unit.

Very soon my opponents learned to fear the minimum Venator unit with Mordikaar since they (and Mordikaar) can kill more than their numbers while giving Mordikaar extra fury points as well holding a flank with a mininum cost (5 PC).
Time and time I managed to take down full units plus UA using this tactic. Now my opponents avoids exchanging full units for minimum venators.

[tensteam]

Actually if looking in a vacuum, a min unit of Venators isn't that bad at all. It is the almost complete lack of any support that makes Venators unpopular. Well you can count Extoller giving a single model Eyeless sight/magical attacks a support, but it isn't hard to see the point. Anyway ARM13 keeps the unit pretty well alive vs. standard POW12 AOEs - of course unless those are fire or corrosion, but having RNG12 weapons let's you spread the unit somewhat well. Naturally there's no point at all to use the max unit but to buy two instead.

I'm not buying the idea of 'Karax shield' in front of Venators. I've tried it and it doesn't provide anything but a beefy target for sprays and fire/corrosion AOEs. Much better is to have a loose formation of Swordsmen ahead. The preferred targets of Venators have bigger bases so you can shoot those over your screen. With current LoS rules you can easily draw firing lanes between models if you really need to shoot small bases.

But to be honest I must add that the biggest reason why Venators do not make into my lists is Basilisk Drake. Boostable POW14 spray at four points is a steal. Drake doesn't NEED support (besides paingivers).

[HannibalTheGreat]

Tyrant Xerxis - A blue one! Xerxis has an excellent "All the Time" ability that allows your friendly living models to draw line of sight/move through friendly models while in his command range (which is 9). Nifty. Xerxis does an excellent job supporting other units that Reivers have synergy with as well. The good Tyrant's feat does not give the Reivers the terrific damage burst that it offers melee troops, but it does still give them the +2 armor (if they are in base to base with a friendly Skorne model) which can help protect them from AOE and light ranged/melee attacks.

You missed his spell Inhospital Ground which works really nice with Venators, often giving them an additional round of shooting.

Praetorian Karax - Plenty of bodies to protect your flimsy gunmen, decent enough armor to potentially stay there, girded to save said flimsy gunmen from blast damage, these guys are where its at for supporting Reivers. They need no external buffs to form their ranks and block charges/LOS to your Reivers.

That´s a great idea! With my Xerxis shooty army I often faced some problems with a full unit of Venators: Either I spread them to avoid mass destruction in melee/blast or I pack them together for better handling / movement. With your "combined unit" I can get a tightly packed unit with more bodies that is rather resilent, though I loose some shots (comparing a full 9pts unit of Venators to that 9pts Venators/Karaks unit), but with a spread out unit of Venators it is often impossible to get all in range, therefore the loss of some shots might not that huge. I like it! This idea definetely improves my Xerxis army!

I'm not buying the idea of 'Karax shield' in front of Venators. I've tried it and it doesn't provide anything but a beefy target for sprays and fire/corrosion AOEs. Much better is to have a loose formation of Swordsmen ahead. The preferred targets of Venators have bigger bases so you can shoot those over your screen. With current LoS rules you can easily draw firing lanes between models if you really need to shoot small bases.

Well, you can still run that Venators/Karax unit in loose formation to avoid these lethal AoEs. And the Karax still provide ranked attacks, giving unlimited LoS to Venators.

But to be honest I must add that the biggest reason why Venators do not make into my lists is Basilisk Drake. Boostable POW14 spray at four points is a steal. Drake doesn't NEED support (besides paingivers).

Well, you´re right here. Karax might be better against units in loose formation, in addition they have a bigger threat range. On the opposite, Drakes provide boostable shots.
Against large based models a 2 men CRA also provides POW 14 shots, though without the possibility of boosted damage rolls.

Overall I think that Venators aren´t the unit you have to buy, but if you already own them and you try to get the best out of them, this article is a nice read.

HTG

[legionaires]

Pink Foam: I guess you didn't read the first post of the Tactica so I will post it here:

EDIT: 3/29/2010
I never considered stating this as this never came up in Mk I but if you could, I would prefer that you not "rank" models or abilities in any guide you write. While I understand that some options just scream awesome, part of the origins of the Mk I Guides was to give all possible options that a model/unit had and what could interact with that choice. Remember that as someone writing a guide, in a sense you are a teacher, and as such, just because one method works good for you doesn't mean that you should down play other methods. In that way all students are considered as evenly as possible.

I want to encourage people to write articles but be aware that after we have had a few months to digest the Forces of Hordes: Skorne book, I am going to go back and clean up how this thread is done as it has been suggested that the format that the Menoth subforum uses for their tactics thread is cleaner and easier to use.

I will add that if you have a model/unit that has absolutely no synergy with the model you are writing about, just don't list it, its what we did previously and saves you typing/word count space. Another reason I didn't like the colors is because with the new forum layout, it hurts the eyes. I had already asked that people please wait a month after the Skorne book came out, so that everyone has had a chance to get it and be able to comment.

You may want to go look at the old Venator thread from the old forums. It has lots of info that you didn't even touch on.
http://www.old.privateerpressforums....owtopic=154423
It was the first tactica thread written on the old forums so its a bit rough but you will get the idea.

EDIT: please don't consider this an angry post from me, I just know that we have a lot of people here who honestly want help and other who will only use the "best" of our opinions. I would like to show the new people all the options and let them be the judge what works with their playstyle. Please edit your post to not be so negative.

[Pink Foam!]

I read the first post in the tactica thread. There is not much of a reason to not start writing tactica now, we have had the .pdfs for a long time and we know what changes (not very many) have been made. Most of the people in our forums have a copy of the .pdf (and now even the card deck, joy!) I didn't list the vast majority of warbeasts because of what you said. There is nothing to be said. But, I mentioned that on the side. I can't just NOT mention models that I think have no synergy with the Reivers because then people will read through the entries and think "Oh, well what about X?".

What was negative? I wrote nothing out of personal feelings towards the unit, everything was based off experience with them and the stats that I have in front of me. There was no negativity only what I thought to be truths. I won't pretend to be the ultimate interpreter though so f you point something in particular out I will gladly change it.

Also, if "some people" want the "best" of our options then they probably don't want Reivers; I've said it in the writeup that they usually aren't the best FIRST unit choice as most of our warlocks do not offer very good support to them compared to what they could do to our other units. The LAST thing I would want is:

(New Thread) "Hey guys I just read about how the Venator Reivers are so good so I went and got some, now help me build a tournament-worthy 15 point list around them!"

I can get rid of the color system if that's what everyone wants, or I can just change the orange to a different, deeper color. I read Maynard's Zaal tactica and that is what inspired this.

@Indragnir ARM13 may be average for Hordes but it is NOT average for Skorne. POW12 AOEs will kill your Reivers a bit less than 50% of the time and probably out range them as well. That's POW12. Pretending that higher POW AOEs do not exist would be foolhardy. When considering multiple AOEs (not rare) or high ROF AOEs (also not terribly rare) then taking blast damage becomes a problem. I mentioned Mordikaar and his use of the Venators and I came to the conclusion that a cheaper and more numerous unit such as Swordsmen would be a better recipient of Hollow.

@Tensteam Thank you for mentioning the Extoller; I have been cheating apparently >< I will look that up as soon as I get the chance. If Corrosion/Fire damage is a problem then Swordsmen will not help much more than Karax would. The Swordsmen also would block LOS to any small based models which would not be a good thing; if Karax blocked line of sight then Cetratii would have been my first choice as a guardian. Venators have a boost to damaging large/medium based models, yes, but that does not mean that you won't want to kill anything else.You can try, but it will be difficult to give yourself LOS with them up there and you will have to position both units to do it. With the Karax you just don't have to worry about it. Mainly what I'm trying to say it, yes, the weakness of Karax is sprays just like any other single wound shield wall unit. But, everyone has a ***** in their armor. You shouldn't NOT use them on the grounds of "they die to corrosion and sprays" you should just not use them (when possible, can't always pick your battles in a tournament obviously) against spray/corrosion heavy armies.

*EDIT* That censor was unnecessary -_-

[Thunder_God]

I R R-G Color-blind, plz halp!

I can see red, I can see green, but mixed together they're problematic. What to do? What to do? Dunno. Try bolding the colour-coded words, it'd probably help. Make the green as dark as you can. Dunno. Play around with it.

[Indragnir]

@Indragnir ARM13 may be average for Hordes but it is NOT average for Skorne. POW12 AOEs will kill your Reivers a bit less than 50% of the time and probably out range them as well. That's POW12. Pretending that higher POW AOEs do not exist would be foolhardy. When considering multiple AOEs (not rare) or high ROF AOEs (also not terribly rare) then taking blast damage becomes a problem. I mentioned Mordikaar and his use of the Venators and I came to the conclusion that a cheaper and more numerous unit such as Swordsmen would be a better recipient of Hollow.

Well in my book any POW 14 AOE heading to Venators is a good news, they would be hitting with the big guns/resources the weakest part of my army. My opponents never waste such kind of resources into killing on a 6+ my venators.

I explain myself bad about Hollow, normally I put Hollow on venators when prets are somewhat spent.

BTW I told you the extoller first Just kidding.

[Pink Foam!]

So you did. Sorry I didn't dish out credit where it was due. What you say about Hollow is pretty much the same way I would use Hollow on Venators with Mordikaar, so we are in agreeance there. As for the AOEs we don't exactly always control what does and doesn't happen with them, so a chance explosion drifting into their faces is typically a bad thing, and is also not hard to do by arcing spells or increasing models weapons' range (pMagnus+Renegade come to mind) or by using a larger AOE and hitting multiple units (Obliteration, Obliterator rocket, Dire Troll Bomber).

So I SHOULD change the Extroller correct? His magical weapon buff would make it so the one Venator could not participate in the CRA with the others?

[Indragnir]

So I SHOULD change the Extroller correct? His magical weapon buff would make it so the one Venator could not participate in the CRA with the others?

Exactly.

BTW: DT Bomber is a mean, mean and mean beast.

[Pink Foam!]

Extoller notes changed.

[Pink Foam!]

Topics/Areas of interest have been replaced in bold and suggestions from players have been inserted.