Son of Field Test Update Second Edition

[LonelyMonk]

Well, a new start.

Guess I need to go play a couple of games and try some of the new stuff.

No theory Hordes, game observations and results...

Whip that Agonizer kick some butt

[PPS_MrSoles]

Also, please try and articulate your concerns. Decalring a Faction to be "unplayable" is not informed feedback. Make suggestions based on specific models.

Also keep in mind that there is a reason models changed from Mk I. 99% percent of the time suggesting a rule get rolled back to its previous incarnation is not going to be seriously considered.

Take the changes to the Ancestral Guardians for example. Simply put we do not want cheap solos that are as powerful as warbeasts. This model is currently sitting in a very comfortable place for its point cost. We could add something to it, but we would also take something away. We have seen this model used very effectively in its current form. It capabilities are not unknown to us.

[DarkWonderer]

I have mixed feelings after this one. I personaly don't care about tresholds. I've yet to have a problem with frenzy.

The Good:

-Gladiator - Wow, that was quick . It's almost exaclty what i wanted. MAT 5 was bad because I was often forced to boost all the attack rolls or rely on luck (and I hate that). It's animus is stil rubish, but as a whol Gladiator look good.

-Rhinodon - Like in Gladiator example MAT 6 to save the day. Now his Tresher starts to be reliable and that's great. Again the animus is pretty disapointing, but as a whole Rhino looks nice. The issue I have with amuck is that while it existst we can never have a beast with both reach and Berserker. I hope Bronzeback gets Tresher instead and that Amuck will be rewrittewn to target a frinedly model or friendly model in the battlegroup at least.

-Krea - It's not big change but I like the fact that it's animus can be used by a warlock for protection. New Paralysis also sound more promissing. Stil it lacks a little somthing. Probably should drop Flank (why bother, better simply use her as support, Drake is too good at range to push him into meele) and give her something... not quite shure what, need some tests. Maybe simply dorp her to PC 3 ?

-Hexeris - The most likely change occured. It's nice and I like it. Not shure if it's enough to make Hexeris potent once more, but I'm getting right back to testing him. I'm guite ok with his AOE spell (even if it's power depends alot on matchup) and Soul Slave, but I think The Suffering and Spirit Leach are there just for him to have 5 spells . I would prefer anything else. Even stuff like Torment (much better cost and effects on a spell which I'm still never going to cast on a beast). Overal I'm positive on the change, even if I hoped for some more.

The nice:

-Bronzeback Titan - I'm not realy impressed here because that's the way it should be form the start, but it's nice to have once more.

The underwhelming:

-Molik Karn - So Fate Ward went the way of the Dodo ? ARM increase is always something, but I think the current Fate Ward should exchanged for some esier to balance (less controversial) ability, that have some strong impact on his playability. No boosted attack rolls is hardly likely to matter when your DEF 13, as 90% of afected models hits him on 7 or better. I'm only using this version of Fate Ward when playing Mordikaar or pMakeda. It's pretty pointless with the rest of our locks. At least the animus is as awesome as ever. I hope our big Savage grows some muscles befeore the FT ends.


P.S.
Wow. Typhon, Mulg and Kromack are looking realy awesome. I wish our beast/locks looked that awe inspiring . That said I think Pounce on beast form Kromack will prove to be overpowered (I'm 99% shure I will find out this monday ).

[SaltyBob]

I actually quite happy with these changes. They seem to be basic upgrades, other than to Molik Karn. It leaves a lot of room for looking at the feedback, which you should all be submiting before the 18th, and then finalizing the MK2 Skorn.

We didn't receive any drastic action, I hope, because PP is looking at the Skorn army as a whole. I'm still very hopeful that the Skorn theme and flavour will be adressed in the final version of MK2.

All of the latest updates seem like they will be in the final version of MK2.

The Molik Karn changes make me wonder, at first glance, if he is still worth 11 points. However I think he will be a much easier pill for my opponents to swallow now that they can charge him without having them scream in rage at no boosted damage.

And to sum up. Currently the Ancestral Guardian is "unplayable" and should have its rules rolled back to MK1. It's clear that PP has done no play testing on him and has no idea what its current capabilities are unkown to them.

[Moonblade]

Like I said before, I'm in love with Bronzeback's STR 13 and Gladiator's MAT 6. These elephants are much more usable now.

For Mk2 I'm definitely buying a Battle Box. I hope all the negativity made some Skornites sell them cheap on eBay

[sirspen]

Take the changes to the Ancestral Guardians for example. Simply put we do not want cheap solos that are as powerful as warbeasts. This model is currently sitting in a very comfortable place for its point cost. We could add something to it, but we would also take something away. We have seen this model used very effectively in its current form. It capabilities are not unknown to us.

Not to sound insulting, but do you think you could list specific examples where the AG has shown to be very effective in its current form? As is stands right now it simply seems to fulfill a roll that is already fulfilled by other figures in our army, who also seems to perform it better. From what I can tell it is anti infantry (what with its low P+S and lack of weapon master). At P+S 12 it will kill shield walled figures on average and get 4 attacks. Versus a heavy beast (assuming 18 ARM) you can usually rely on 4 damage with a posted attack and assuming you got the charge you'll only have 2 boosted attacks and 1 normal attack for a total of 9 damage.

Based on how he is now and at his current point cost id much rather see him become the current incarnation of the troll champion with weapon master thresher and P+S 12 and no souls. Or gain weapon master and lose his synergy with the Immortals.

[LonelyMonk]

OK, this isn't a Like or dislike topic....

Post your game experience... Play it, then post it.

[knightdrake]

I believe the Gladiator is moving to a good point but its animus is holding it back. THe 5" range isn't providing a true realized gain from using it. Beasts and models are still free to walk up and attack, which will still be a detriment. Lack of a charge or special attack when only 5" away is a minor issue with the availablility of spells and abilties that will enable the attacker to still cause major issues to that Gladiator.

My opinion is the range should extend to the CMD range so it can have a true defensive animus to offer protection. At 8" range it can hold off that charge or slam but still allow a walk up and with reach the ability to attack. Now with an increased range I'd expect some alterations of what can be effected. We are looking at a beast that when taken on its own abilties can move 4 inches a turn to catch anyone. Since an avarage charge would be about 9" there is a buffer zone of use because of his speed.

To my PG above, I have been testing this specifically with all the warlocks as I want a consistent results along all options. His animus should produce even results when taken with any warlock then can either go up or down on effective application dependant upon those warlock's spells.

[sirspen]

OK, this isn't a Like or dislike topic....

Post your game experience... Play it, then post it.

PSH! just because you made the thread you think you can controll its direction!

[PPS_MrSoles]

Not to sound insulting, but do you think you could list specific examples where the AG has shown to be very effective in its current form?

Six months of play testing. Actually more. And counting.

Can you show where the AG has not shown to be very effective in its current form? If so please submit feedback explaing your position.

[PPS_MrSoles]

I realize my answer was clipped. It is unfortunately all I have time for now. I will describe my thinking behind the AG Monday.

[sirspen]

Six months of play testing. Actually more. And counting.

Can you show where the AG has not shown to be very effective in its current form? If so please submit feedback explaing your position.

Fair enough I suppose.

[knightdrake]

I have found it lacking again high armor multiwound troops, becomes a one hit wonder and was a role its previous version could handle. That's been my playtest experience and have feedback in.

[Deathraven]

I realize my answer was clipped. It is unfortunately all I have time for now. I will describe my thinking behind the AG Monday.

This I will look forwards too because at the moment I have found it very lacking. It hits like a 3 point solo, but one that is a lot faster and does not rely on souls.

[sirspen]

I realize my answer was clipped. It is unfortunately all I have time for now. I will describe my thinking behind the AG Monday.

This will be interesting. Thank you very much for your time and input, it is much appreciated.

[NaCl Catapulto]

I have found it lacking again high armor multiwound troops, becomes a one hit wonder and was a role its previous version could handle. That's been my playtest experience and have feedback in.

Ever since I stopped throwing my AG at Man-o-wars, it's been doing great for 3 points. We have 'Beasts, Cataphracts, Rhadiem - Hey... lemme look at that.


MT excels against single-wound infantry, with an emphasis on numbers.

Void Spirit handles light to medium well, can tackle heavy infantry if it's living - with a strong emphasis on single-target situations

Ancestral deals well with light-to medium targets, can boost to put the last bit of hurt needed on nearly any target: remember, if he's loaded on souls, it means the fighting's well underway. I see the AG as king of selective, no-fail second-wave cleanup.

Rhadiem wrecks big things but good.

Extoller does much the same, provided it's living. The bigger they are...


How's that for a solo parade? And seriously, some things (bastions, MOW, Cetrati) are hard enough you should be sending heavies or A WHOLE UNIT to deal with. How many solos can you name that can effortlessly deal with an 11-point unit of Cetrati in shieldwall?





Seriously, some things have new roles. You (not you specifically, knightdrake - this is a general rant) can work with that, or keep ramming squares in round holes screaming "why don't it work no more". Your choice. I'm doing pretty damned good with the Skorne up here, and wondering if I'm using the same models as the rest of you.

[Hollywoodxxl]

Six months of play testing. Actually more. And counting.

Can you show where the AG has not shown to be very effective in its current form? If so please submit feedback explaing your position.

+1

I agree with your rebuttle.

I have just a small comparison.

pButcher lost Killing blow, Retaliation, feat went from current to while within. He gained Full Throttle ! Same super killing machine but with sick jack caster abilities. He got better. Prob Khador's best caster. Very fun to play too.

eMorghoul lost shadowalker, shadowfall, entropy. Pretty much his whole gig. Gained vanish, flashing blade, torment, passive stealth. His playstyle didnt really change. No buffs, dispells, ignoring effects. Maybe Im wrong and just dont see his potential. But he cant do what he used to do(assassinate) as good anymore, and he didnt gain any new tricks. eSorcha during her feat should not hit harder than eMorghoul imho.

Just my two cents! Ill keep playtesting and submitting feedback. thank you.

[gaminguy]

P.S.
Wow. Typhon, Mulg and Kromack are looking realy awesome. I wish our beast/locks looked that awe inspiring . That said I think Pounce on beast form Kromack will prove to be overpowered (I'm 99% shure I will find out this monday ).

I believe the Gladiator is moving to a good point but its animus is holding it back. THe 5" range isn't providing a true realized gain from using it. Beasts and models are still free to walk up and attack, which will still be a detriment. Lack of a charge or special attack when only 5" away is a minor issue with the availablility of spells and abilties that will enable the attacker to still cause major issues to that Gladiator.

My opinion is the range should extend to the CMD range so it can have a true defensive animus to offer protection. At 8" range it can hold off that charge or slam but still allow a walk up and with reach the ability to attack. Now with an increased range I'd expect some alterations of what can be effected. We are looking at a beast that when taken on its own abilties can move 4 inches a turn to catch anyone. Since an avarage charge would be about 9" there is a buffer zone of use because of his speed.

Pounce and Subdue cost me a game against Kromak today. I forced for subdue thinking it would stop the Fury shenanigans from his feral Warp Wolf (which it won't do, it only works on attacks) and doing it maxed him out for Fury. He dropped my only other transfer target and then Kromak covered 13" to drop 8 Fury on Makeda. It took him all 8 points to get the job done mind you, if I'd seen it coming and cast Defender's Ward on Makeda she would have survived and I would have walked the Gladiator into Kromack's back arc on my next turn. (I sooo wished I'd had a BB instead of the Gladiator in a couple of spots, Circle's terrain creation is a real pain and Stampede would have ignored it.)

To weigh in on the AGs; that same game my opponent double teleported a Lord of the Feast (I can't believe that's legal) into my line on the first turn and dropped three Venators before he ran out of targets. The AG ate him on my next turn, and a couple of turns later it took a fair sized chunk out of a Gnarlhorn Satyr. Four Wolves of Oboros took him down afterward, but he took one of them with him. He did well more than three points worth of damage, that's really all you can ask of a model. I still think he feels a little underpowered, but I think a big chunk of that is how good he used to be.

(All our melee beasts got +1 Mat! Yay! Now I have an actual reason to take a Gladiator instead of a Cannoneer, there was no point at all when the Cannoneer had range and was almost as good in Melee for only one more point.)

[Yertle4]

(All our melee beasts got +1 Mat! Yay! Now I have an actual reason to take a Gladiator instead of a Cannoneer, there was no point at all when the Cannoneer had range and was almost as good in Melee for only one more point.)

Amen. I was so happy about that.

[Scalpel]

The AG ? I see why he got changed and overall the direction is better. He doesn?t slow the army down, he doesn?t need a soul to at least make a charge, and he can?t take down a Heavy Warbeast in one turn - all good changes.

There are 2 ways to look his points. He is either a 3 Point solo that needs a 4point unit to die to work. Or .. if you are taking souls anyway you may as well get the most out them and spend another 3 points.

But there is a 3rd way to look at his points. If I?ve taken a 4point unit I can now take another 4 point unit or a 3 point solo that has to keep close to the first 4point unit. It?s almost we have to lose more to get a small gain.

If you look at a 4pt Pratorian unit + an AG = 7pts ? he should be able to kill a light Warbeast with 3 Souls right? Well maybe not as the game doesn?t really work like that ? however it feels like it should.

I think getting Weapon Master back is too good ? it?s that chance of the big numbers ? where a +2 POW makes him more easily assessable in terms of game balance and points.


However, I'd rather have 5 souls again than +2 POW, as I always seem to run our of them too fast, and he doesn't get the job I want him too done.

The last thing about him, unlike other 3 point solo models ... he needs stuff to die and to be in the right place for that - that means he should be a little better than them overall once he gets the souls.

[Helion]

For the AG, the only wish that I have, is that him and Zaal were still bff's. I've only got half the locket as it stands, and I wish that they'd just kiss and make up already. If Zaal gained a minor ability that allowed him to grant SOMETHING to an AG, like a free Spirit Driven to speed him up a bit, That would be cake.

[Helion]

Although, upon further examination, I guess Zaal is our answer to certain cryx builds. However, that just feels rather dirty.

[Kaptajn Congoboy]

I use the Ancestral Guardian to kill really high-DEF targets now, something he can, with one soul, do unsupported. He can also chip at high-ARM targets (once) without souls.

I think a P+S increase would do, though, he tends to underperform slightly in his role when he is sent up against thing with high DEF and ARM buffs that make POW12 lack - typically warlocks/warcasters.

[Amon]

The AG ? I see why he got changed and overall the direction is better. He doesn?t slow the army down, he doesn?t need a soul to at least make a charge, and he can?t take down a Heavy Warbeast in one turn - all good changes.

There are 2 ways to look his points. He is either a 3 Point solo that needs a 4point unit to die to work. Or .. if you are taking souls anyway you may as well get the most out them and spend another 3 points.

I guess the probelm that I keep running into is that when I take an AG I can think of a bunch of other things that also cost 3 points that would perform just as well or better than the AG.

I think getting Weapon Master back is too good ? it?s that chance of the big numbers ? where a +2 POW makes him more easily assessable in terms of game balance and points.

However, I'd rather have 5 souls again than +2 POW, as I always seem to run our of them too fast, and he doesn't get the job I want him too done.

The last thing about him, unlike other 3 point solo models ... he needs stuff to die and to be in the right place for that - that means he should be a little better than them overall once he gets the souls.

The more I play him (and come up against other 3-point solos, the more I feel I agree with this. 5 souls is probably the better balance as opposed to weaponmaster. Right now I feel like the AG is as good as other 3 point solos once he has his full complement of souls, so the deaths of our troops are just bringing him up to par for a turn as opposed to making him shine for a turn.

[SaltyBob]

I have been waffling over the new AG for a while now. At first glance he seems fine. Then you play him and think to yourself, man only POW 12? Sure I can boost but he runs out of souls so fast.

Weapon Master would be too good. He seems very close to me, just a bit off. He has major disadvantages, though not as many as he used to.

This is the simplest fix I can think of.

Spirit Driven. For every Soul token currently on this model it gains +1 SPD and +1 POW on melee attacks.

It returns some hitting power and a small boost to speed. It feels fluffy. I don't think it's over powered since if you boost to hit you lose POW. When you buy extra attacks you lose POW.

Not having to spend 1 to gain +2 SPD will let you spend more on attacks and not feel like this model is the slowest thing on the planet.

Maxed out that makes his threat range 12" with reach and hitting at POW 15. You know, basically the same as a Savage with Enrage who can boost without souls and is a lot harder to kill.

[tensteam]

I think that it is the weapon master AG desperately needs. Retaliatory strike isn't going to threaten anyone but infantry without so it is almost useless ability. Any harder target doesn't care much even if it'll give AG a free strike. Such a guardian...

Three souls is a nice way to limit the amount of attacks. What I'd do is to take away the chance to boost. Then even with full (3) souls AG couldn't deal that much damage against harder targets. Of course this would be compensated by Zaal and his feat, but maybe those two need some synergy.

If that's too much AG could have its POW reduced to 11. To compensate one good fix would be to make Spirit driven usable with more than one soul. That increases the threat range, but makes AG less efficient when going farther away.

In every game I've played I've found AG underperforming. The highlight for him was so far when my opponent left his warcaster Ravyn (no camped focus) within 11" of AG. Zaal had feat turn going and AG charged in with full souls. Even under these most optimal conditions AG wasn't able to take out the enemy caster. Instead it stayed blocking my further movement, but fortunately I was able to charge it with enraged Savage and there was no Kovaas as it was killed by my own model. Now there was just enough room for one more Ferox to come in for kill. Without that huge mistake by my opponent I most probably would've lost the game.

In other games AG has either been shot into pieces before it was able to engage or was able to kill one or two troopers. Moving medium base is much harder than small ones and in the end the threat range isn't that good even with Soul driven. In every case counterattack has taken AG down.

So far the most frustrating experience was also with Zaal. Zaal had cast Last stand on enraged Savage, but despite the feat turn and lots of counters (Venators had been completely wiped out by Widowmakers) it wasn't able to take Beast-09 that had came to engage both my Savage and AG down. FYI Savage was hitting P+S 15 and 4 dice four times.... Well as he failed now AG had to try take it out. No such luck and puny P+S 12 dealed only very minimal damage againt ARM20 even when using counters to boost. However, the bad thing was that I realized AG had even no chance to deal with eButcher even if the Beast had been killed by Savage. Low P+S just doesn't do anything against high ARM.

So do I find AG worth it points? No. I don't even know what role should it play. Other options are better (and cheaper) when dealing with infantry and it doesn't have the power to even damage harder targets such as warjacks. Scraping the paint for a couple of points does not count. Other melee solos (outside Skorne of course) at least can do some damage and force the enemy to deal with them in fear of free strikes. And that's without souls.

[Helion]

it's quite simple really. Look at Vilmon. Granted, he is a character, but even a normal Paladin hits like a freight train on the charge. Maybe the best thing to do is make the Ag's boost not a normal boost. for example, instead of an additional attack die, you can boost to grant a re roll to signify the spirit guiding his hand. then instead of an additional attack die, give him weapon master built in and have him be able to boost for more POW on his weapon for a turn, or additional attacks. Although I doubt PP would go for this particular change as it adds another rule, maybe if they were to add this effect into spirit driven?

Would that help at all?

[knightdrake]

Ever since I stopped throwing my AG at Man-o-wars, it's been doing great for 3 points. We have 'Beasts, Cataphracts, Rhadiem - Hey... lemme look at that.


MT excels against single-wound infantry, with an emphasis on numbers.

Void Spirit handles light to medium well, can tackle heavy infantry if it's living - with a strong emphasis on single-target situations

Ancestral deals well with light-to medium targets, can boost to put the last bit of hurt needed on nearly any target: remember, if he's loaded on souls, it means the fighting's well underway. I see the AG as king of selective, no-fail second-wave cleanup.

Rhadiem wrecks big things but good.

Extoller does much the same, provided it's living. The bigger they are...


How's that for a solo parade? And seriously, some things (bastions, MOW, Cetrati) are hard enough you should be sending heavies or A WHOLE UNIT to deal with. How many solos can you name that can effortlessly deal with an 11-point unit of Cetrati in shieldwall?





Seriously, some things have new roles. You (not you specifically, knightdrake - this is a general rant) can work with that, or keep ramming squares in round holes screaming "why don't it work no more". Your choice. I'm doing pretty damned good with the Skorne up here, and wondering if I'm using the same models as the rest of you.

The issue is I do work with it and with this fieldtesting approach with an open mind. The AG is brought in a variety of lists and at the end of the game the performance lacks definition and that another solo could do better in the role. It is second string on the player roster.

He was th shizz before and he is not that anymore and can accept that but do think it needs a defining role that another model isn't going to provide me.

[Wolfbane]

I'm on the "slightly increase the POW of the AG to bring him near the Immortals and it will be fine" camp.

P+S 14 is all it needs.

That or give the Immortals Flank [Ancestral Guardian] and the Ancestral Guardian Flank [Immortals]. Two problems solved.

[Khador247]

eMorghoul lost shadowalker, shadowfall, entropy. Pretty much his whole gig. Gained vanish, flashing blade, torment, passive stealth. His playstyle didnt really change. No buffs, dispells, ignoring effects. Maybe Im wrong and just dont see his potential. But he cant do what he used to do(assassinate) as good anymore, and he didnt gain any new tricks.

I think he should get his Shadowplay (I think that was the name) ability back. The four inch placement really helped him set himself up for assassinations.

[DeathnGlory]

I like the idea of Zaal having [cohort - AG.] Zaal can channel spells through AG's as if they're arc nodes. It would 1. Make them a must have for his lists as he's so squishy, 2. change their role in a positive way, 3. Appease all the people that bought 2 of the bloody things.

[Zaqir]

Pounce and Subdue cost me a game against Kromak today. I forced for subdue thinking it would stop the Fury shenanigans from his feral Warp Wolf (which it won't do, it only works on attacks) and doing it maxed him out for Fury. He dropped my only other transfer target and then Kromak covered 13" to drop 8 Fury on Makeda. It took him all 8 points to get the job done mind you, if I'd seen it coming and cast Defender's Ward on Makeda she would have survived and I would have walked the Gladiator into Kromack's back arc on my next turn. (I sooo wished I'd had a BB instead of the Gladiator in a couple of spots, Circle's terrain creation is a real pain and Stampede would have ignored it.)

Wait a sec, you're basing your field test experience due to what exactly?
You seem to have used Subdue incorrectly, which is not the game's fault. You also by doing so wasted Fury or space for transferring or casting Death Ward.

Please tell me again how ANY of this is the fault of the Gladiator?

[Moonblade]

Zagir looks like he's playing the Devil's Advocate in the Skorne forums.

I don't mind though. I like to hear his very valid and logical response to the whines here. It's good to have someone with positivity.

Although some of his posts do have moot points.

[Zaqir]

Zagir looks like he's playing the Devil's Advocate in the Skorne forums.

I don't mind though. I like to hear his very valid and logical response to the whines here. It's good to have someone with positivity.

Although some of his posts do have moot points.

Go look at my ideas for Actual Molik Karn buffs in the Field Test area (I also posted them in another thread but figured why not put them there just in case)

So i am for buffing ideas as well

[strangedane]

I suggested that the AG got the same ability-can't remember the name- as menoth's seneschal, that every time a friendly model within a certain range dies by enemy attacks, the AG gets increase in spd and strength. Think it could work..

[Razhem]

The ancestrals being channelers with Zaal could actually be a pretty awesome idea, although he would need another offensive spell worth casting in his repertory for it to shine.

[DeathnGlory]

When reading and writing in these threads a lot of it is with a wry smile. A lot of players here have played a lot of games and written there feedback in the PP forums. All my feedback in the forums were constructive and concise and I'll play 3 games tomorrow and post what I find. Here we can use sarcasm and doom and this is natural because we are getting a bit of a riding at the moment. Where I really appreciate Scalpel and the others in his ilk is that they're evaluating how other factions play against Skorne where as I rely on those players to be honest and say if their stuff is too powerful because I am not as fluid and have to concentrate on my stuff to be effective and analytical.

It would be really nice to have to test something really criminally broken for a few weeks as the other factions are doing. I think the lack of that is why so many are down in the dumps.

[Zaqir]

The ancestrals being channelers with Zaal could actually be a pretty awesome idea, although he would need another offensive spell worth casting in his repertory for it to shine.

Yes but wouldn't that be a Zaal buff and not an AG buff per say?

Maybe make them into weird Skarloks, ie they can build up tokens but they can't use them to buff etc, instead they use them like their own mini fury to cast spells their warlock can cast?

It would totally change them but it would be a new weird dynamic for Skorne thats for damn sure.

[DeathnGlory]

The ancestrals being channelers with Zaal could actually be a pretty awesome idea, although he would need another offensive spell worth casting in his repertory for it to shine.

This is why it wouldn't be broken. Just a way of firing off Hex Blasts without coming to close to the front. It would really go along way to mitigating his losses.

[Razhem]

Yes but wouldn't that be a Zaal buff and not an AG buff per say?

Maybe make them into weird Skarloks, ie they can build up tokens but they can't use them to buff etc, instead they use them like their own mini fury to cast spells their warlock can cast?

It would totally change them but it would be a new weird dynamic for Skorne thats for damn sure.

Well, Zaal needs a hug too, I think I already gave my suggestions for the ancestral and I already sent feedback asking for them (+2 pow and veteran leader immortals) and with that the ancestral and immortals are right there from my perspective. IF we get the channeler thing, apart from giving the stone theme a push, it lets Zaal be a spellslinger and not be autodead if he tries it.