The Retribution of Scyrah Tier armies.

[thecsharian]

In the old forums we had a bunch of pinned topics, some of which related to the tiered armies, and these have yet to be reinstated. However, I propose that instead of a multitude of topics we have several directories. Perhaps with some overall generic ‘global’ discussion to go along with it.

There’s already a directory for Lord Xalys’ in-depth discussions, and hopefully this can become the directory for relevant tiered list threads.


THE DIRECTORY:
Ok, here’s how I think this will best work... to avoid one long post we’ll break things up:
First (directly below) we’ll have a link to all the generic relevant threads and posts within this thread; then we’ll have posts for each individual tier army, detailing the tier structure and any tier specific links.

Is there anything else that should be included?

IN OTHER THREADS:
*Tiers of Fears - tier army pairs for the competitive arena (hopefully an ongoing discussion)
*Minimum points for Tier 4
*('Competitive') Ranking of Tiered lists
*Effective Tier four lists (old forums)
*Complaints about the spamming tiered lists allows

In this thread:
*Charge of the Battle Mages (Rahn’s Tier)
*Legions of the Dawn (Vyros’ Tier)
*Shadows of Retribution (Kaelyssa’s Tier)
*Assassins (Garryth’s Tier)
*Will of the Nine Voices (Ravyns Tier)

[thecsharian]

CHARGE OF THE BATTLE MAGES – Adeptis Rahn Shyeel

Tier Description:
These lists are about shenanigans.
Even if you play with a Houseguard focus, the list will be about denying charges, moving things aside and then leveraging the right amount of force for a win. It is also worth noting, that while Mittens are also a large focus of the army, they aren’t all it’s about – notice Mittens come in after jacks in the tier structure.

One notable thing about these tiers is that they are very ‘forceful’ (they do what they want), but they also lack the ability to ignore much. Overall there are some decent abilities is disregarding ranged attacks and an outright offensive attack, but the tier does not boast overly high ARM, DEF; and has no ability to ignore the enemies defensives. Additionally magic is a cornerstone of the armies offensive abilities, and there are a lot of things that deny the use of spells in this game, so consideration needs to be paid during list construction. Outside of Houseguard and warjacks, there are no ranged attacks in this army, another thing you need to be wary of – if you have no housegaurd and no spells, you’re a medium SPD, low ARM, medium/low P+S melee force... which sucks.

(Tier information redacted.)

Sample Rahn “Charge of the Battle Mages” 25pt T3.
Adeptis Rahn Shyeel +6
Manticore 8
Phoenix 10
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
House Shyeel Magisters 2
House Shyeel Magisters 2
House Shyeel Magisters 2
Arcanist 1
Arcanist 1
Arcanist FREE

The list: This list takes a nice solo and warjack support orientation to starting this tier. The mages can be quite fearsome in melee, you have spells out the ying-yang, and enough Arcanist support to drive the jacks almost completely – the more focus Rahn keeps, the more Rahn hurts the enemy.
Most things are self explanatory, but to comment on the jacks... the Phoenix is an auto include as you NEED an arcnode (reach and combustion is gravy), and the Manticore brings two important things: very high P+S melee attacks; and multiple ranged attacks, something very important and missing in the army.
This list is T3, as once you have two heavies it’s hard not to end up there. In expanding I would not attempt to go for T4 until your looking at over 50pts – as it is the list is verging on being far too limited, you really need some extra options above mages. The next thing I’d get would be a full unit of Houseguard, either type works: Full Riflemen+UA or Full Halberdiers+UA+WA.

In play: The trick with this list is striking at the right time, if you get the jacks into position you should be able to crush anything they direct their attention too... and everything else can clear a path for them. Beware though, if you pop your feat early you will be fighting an uphill battle for the rest of the game.
You will also need to be wary about not having a distinctive battle line. Try keep the jacks and Rahn as the centre of the force, with the Arcanists supporting them from behind. Use the Mages and Magisters as a light skirmish screen – disrupting the enemy offensive where you can. Your Magisters should be the workhorses of the list, so be careful not to lose them all at once.

(as with everything on the interwebz, this should be taken with a grain of salt.)


Links:
Mittens For Kittens

[thecsharian]

LEGIONS OF THE DAWN - Dawnlord Vyros

Tier Description:
These lists are about grinding armoured melee assault, or something like it.
While there are options allowing for quite a strong ranged list, if you a progressing through T2 and T3, then the army will probably be having at least a minimum of around 15pts of core melee, discounting jacks; so by 50pts, assuming you’re running a T3+ list, you’ll have at least half your army focused on melee. It is also comprises of the higher ARM models of the faction, and with abilities like vengeance, flank and unyielding, really benefits from mixing it up all up close and personal.

This puts ranged units distinctively into the support category, and forces Invictors into the second or third choice placing in unit selection instead of it’s usual 1st equal place position.

While the Tiers are fixed in this melee ‘focus’ it is important to take into account Vyros’ need for jacks (for his feat); and to remember that you cannot get far in this game by forsaking an aspect of the game (like ranged attacks) altogether.

(Tier information redacted)

Sample Vyros "Legions of the Dawn" 25pt T2.
Dawnlord Vyros +6
Griffon 4
Phoenix 10
Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts) 6
Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard 2
Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts) 6
Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard FREE
Arcanist 1
Dawnguard Scyir 2

The list: The options for T2 at 25pts feel terribly limiting in this case. The catch being the need for jacks on top of the Sentinels. In either case, I feel this is a pretty decent list (though exchanging the Scyir for Soulless is a good available option).
Jacks both have reach, which is important as Vyros has flank and can be a beast in melee. Over half the army (models wise) has vengeance, and everything bar the Arcanist should be running at ARM 17!
In expanding the list I’d be wary of expanding straight to T3, and IMO you should avoid T4 until you’re looking at around 75pts. The list lacks any real ranged threat, so you need to fill that in, and a speedy interceptor (beyond the Griffon) would also be handy... so I’d begin with a Destor Thane (on paper the are the awesome), take a unit of Stormfall Archers, and a second Arcanist to help drive the jacks.

In play: With this force you will need to drive up the battlefield and force the point (pointy end of your stick) with (into) your opponent. Which is quite doable, you can ignore range attacks and run straight ahead, well armoured and powerful... if you get to grips with your opponent it should be over (for him) in a flash.
I’d run the Griffon next to Vyros, for flank and protection, while the Phoenix takes a more flank position. Stagger your advance and lead with an Inviolable Resolved unit of Sentinels and have Hallowed Avenger up on the Phoenix. Keep the Arcansit at the back incase you need repair. Get to the enemy, and get there fast.
...Just ensure you don’t lose all your jacks before popping your feat.

(as with everything on the interwebz, this should be taken with a grain of salt.)


Links:

[thecsharian]

SHADOWS OF RETRIBUTION - Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper

Tier Description:
These lists are about calculated, supported Assassination.
These tiers bring together a diverse range of assassination options, incorporating all of the currently available assassin and sniper models of the retribution, alongside some warjacks and their support. Kaelyssa even allows Warjacks to become a worrisome ranged assassination threat for our opponents. And from T2 you’re already being encouraged to play multiple LoS ignoring ranged units.
This list lacks any line troops, but gets around that with some defensive abilties (courtesy of Kaelyssa), especially with her feat to fall back on. When list building the thing to consider is balancing the different assassination options available, especially as so many of the models cost around the same points costs.

(Tier information redacted)

Sample Kaelyssa “Shadows of Retribution” 25pt T2.
Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper +7
Hydra 9
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Mage Hunter Commander 2
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Mage Hunter Commander FREE
Arcanist 1
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios 3 (either Eiryss)
Ghost Sniper 2
Mage Hunter Assassin 2
Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios 3

The List: IMHO this is probably the best of the 25pt mage lists given here. It boasts multiple and diverse threats and Kaelyssa makes these threats harder to avoid. You can sub the Ghost sniper out for another MHA to hit T3, but I’ve avoided that for diversity (and to stay T2).
In expanding I’d jump right into T3 with a second Mage Hunter Assassin, you could then take two Griffons to hit T4, but I wouldn’t, expanding the Mage Hunter units is probably wiser, along with a soulless each for some extra magic protection (just cuz you’ve got banishing ward and whiplash doesn’t mean your opponent won’t have dispel )

In play: With the diversity of solos used, you need to take care not to lose anything foolishly... or you’ll lose a distinct part of your offensive range. I’d attempt to run a pincer for at the enemy warcaster/warlock, keeping phantom hunter up on Kaelyssa, and just tyring to get her and your Mage Hunters within range.
If the enemy throws something your way take it down if you have to, but ignore it if you don’t. Get set up into position and go for straight for the kill. And remember that your feat can be used for both setting up the assassination run, and trying to live through your failed assassination attempt.

(as with everything on the interwebz, this should be taken with a grain of salt.)


Links:

[thecsharian]

ASSASSINS - Garryth, Blade of Retribution

Tier Description:
These lists are about Assassination and threat Denial.
Mage hunters hit hard, and fast, are hard to hit from afar, and ignore so much. While Soulless hit reasonably hard, but most importantly allow you to laugh at enemy magic. And guess what... these are the only things you are bringing to the table (outside of a battlegroup) with these tiers. Unfortunately they’re all glass cannons, but I think we can all live with that.

This tier is the most clear cut of all of them, the one real care you need to take in list building is not being too much of a tool and knowing what sort of list you can, and want, to play. With there tiers you can run a lot of Mage Hunter Assassins, and some people will really HATE you for this; and if you have fallen prey to the power gaming bug, then you need to remember to take care to ensure your army is still playable – Mage Hunter Assassins don’t make the army, the army makes Mage Hunter Assassins.

(Tier information redacted)

Sample Garryth “Assassins” 25pt T2.
Garryth, Blade of Retribution +5
Chimera 6
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Mage Hunter Commander 2
Soulless Escort 1
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Soulless Escort 1
Mage Hunter Assassin 4x2
Nayl 2

The list: Four assassins! What more could you want?
You can actually fit in another... but IMO, only at the cost of the list overall.
The great thing here is the redundancy of assassination options. While you lack variety, at least if you lose some of it you still have most of it and it’s all pretty the same. Just keep your Soulless safe and at the rear of your force (they attract enemy fire).
In expanding this, the first thing I’d do is take a third Mage Hunter unit (with Soulless), this puts you at T4, and makes Nayl free, which pays for the next Mage Hunter Assassun. After that I’d perhaps look at a Griffon, just for a speedy attack option – with mirage it has a pretty good threat range (15inches?), and powerful charge.

In play: Cut straight for the enemy warcaster/warlock. You opponent probably won’t let you walk straight up to him, but you should be able to do quite a reasonable job of ripping through anything he send to stall your advance.
Whatever you do, don’t get bogged down. Attrition is not something this list is anywhere near good at. Use mirage to position to where you need to be, while gallows and death sentence are used to bring down your targets.

(as with everything on the interwebz, this should be taken with a grain of salt.)


Links:

[thecsharian]

WILL OF THE NINE VOICES - Ravyn, Eternal Light

Tier Description:
These lists are about ranged power.
Naturally, being RoS, there is also a tendency towards assassination, but right of the bat you are fielding three ranged units, and sporting a hugely range boosting feat. The catch here is that the different parts can feel quite disparate, and for the most part only offer more of the same, or something unsupportively different (where you may want a more balanced list).

With the abilities on hand you should be able to quite easily hit where you want, and hit hard... but with the strong offensive focus, you will need to take care to, and plan against falling to a counter attack.
While Invictors aren’t directly supported by the tier, they are very strong with Ravyn and are the only real line troops available to you; if you have the points are well worth consideration.

(Tier information redacted)

Sample Ravyn “Will of the Nine Voices” 25pt T2
Ravyn, Eternal Light +6
Phoenix 10
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Mage Hunter Commander 2
Soulless Escort 1
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios 3 (either Eiryss)
Mage Hunter Assassin Free

The list: The three units required for T2 really hits you in small games. The Phoenix is in there for theme, reach (locomotion threat range), and I guess and arcnode is handy. It’s perhaps worth noting you can drop the soulless and Eiryss for two more MH commanders... if that’s your bag.
In expanding this list I’d look at getting a line unit like Invictors, unfortunately I don’t think that’d be an immediatel good option though – 4 ‘min’ units is rarely a good option. The first thing I’d add is a Mage Hunter Commander to the two units without one, and maybe a Soulless – this way all your units will be ADing, ignoring LoS, and have some immunity to spells. In 35pts, that leaves enough space for Narn and an Arcanist.
Taking the Fane Knight would be a cool option, but I think he may be a large based melee focused model in an army of stealth... perhaps not the best idea.

In play: As per Ravyns abilties, you want to hit hard and hit first, which is a great idea with Mage Hunters anyway. Just ensure you time things right, cuz if you fluff your offensive strike you only have stealth and viel of mists to keep you safe... and neither are that great when things get close and personal.
I’d lead with the UA’d unit (keeping the Soulless as far back as possible), and if they get an opening drop your feat and take it. The other two units sweep up the flanks and the solos do whatever they want.
You have a little bit of defensive magic, but I’d only use it too cover your advance – try to avoid taking a defensive position, your really want to push with the offensive as much as you can.

(as with everything on the interwebz, this should be taken with a grain of salt – truth be told I have no interest at all in Ravyn and am writing this purely as I am writing similar for the other tiers. )


Links:

[Lord Xalys]

Good initiative, mate! While I'll cover the tiers belonging to a certain 'caster in their respective articles somewhat, I think it's best that you make this your forte... after all, you're well on your way already with Mittens for Kittens. I second the motion for this topic to be pinned!

Cheers,
LX

[thecsharian]

Pinned thanks to Bobaferret. Cheers Boba

I'll keep this updated, but I don't want to run "Mittens for Kittens" type threads for all the tiers, it's intended to be about play experience as much as constructive theory, and it'd feel a bit off running such threads and not playing the corresponding armies. Though a 'brief but detailed' overview of each tier might not be out of the question.

Hopefully there are some other people out there on the forums as keen on tier lists as me (or at least nearly as keen) and will start other M4Ks type threads soon.

Having said that... I am eyeing up a second tier army (as in Tiers for Fears), and all but Ravyn are looking tempting.
(this is how I end up owning full factions )

[thecsharian]

just updated the above posts to give a description of the tier and a sample army.
... don't know how right the posts may be, but at least it's something

[Jayz]

It's also possible to hit Tier 2 at 15 pts with Kealyssa something which is pretty damm nasty:

Kaelyssa [-7]
Hydra [9]
MHSF (M) [5]
MH Comm. [2]
MHSF (M) [5]
MH Comm. [FREE Tier 2]
Arcanist [1]

Total:15pts

Cheers CJ

[Cowzrnomatoh]

Hello, Just trolling, but I was wondering how certain things become free in the different lists like the mage hunter assassin and the archanist? Im interested in the game just havent field played or anything yet.

[Demeritus]

Hello, Just trolling, but I was wondering how certain things become free in the different lists like the mage hunter assassin and the archanist? Im interested in the game just havent field played or anything yet.

It's the advantage of taking tiered lists. Some things become restricted but other things have increased FA or become free. It's part of the trade off.

[Cowzrnomatoh]

Ahhhh, Arigato.

Nevermind, figured it out.

[Jake the Dog]

Question: On Kaelyssa's T3, Mage Hunter solos mean Mage Hunter Assassins or any "Mage Hunter" solo, meaning Eiryss and Narn are fair game?

[Demeritus]

Any Mage Hunter solo is fair game.

Just in case it comes up, here is the ruling from the old forums.

http://old.privateerpressforums.com/...owtopic=185312

[Jake the Dog]

Ah, ok. Thanks.

[Howiekapowi]

I dont really understand tier armies. Im new to WM, can you use tier armies whenever you want, and they are legal?

[hausdorff space]

This is what it says in the rulebook

Theme Forces
Theme Forces are themed armies for specific warcasters. A
Theme Force can include only the warcaster named in its
title. If you are playing a game with two or more warcasters
in each army, you cannot use these rules.
Theme Forces are broken into tiers. Each tier has a set of
requirements that restricts your army composition. If your
army meets the requirements of a tier and the tiers before it,
you gain the benefits listed. These benefits are cumulative:
you gain the benefits of every tier for which your army
meets the requirements.
If a Theme Force can include a given unit, you can add any
attachments to the unit that are available to it.
Theme Forces and their requirements and benefits can be
found in each faction?s Forces of WARMACHINE book.

Which perhaps doesn't really help. Simply put, you can use them whenever you want, and they are entirely legal.

[hausdorff space]

...ok the tier information got removed earlier today after ... some happenings (in other threads).

I've talked to the mods, and I'll be getting some 'more' specific information back up hopefully early next week... or perhaps will just replace the thread (so I can edit things again - damned forum crashes)