Is Warmachine Reaching Critical Mass?

[Ivellis]

Warmachine is my favorite miniature wargame, however I've begun to think that soon the factions will be pretty much complete when it comes to 'caster, 'jack, unit and solo choices. Besides resculpts and plastic remakes.

Do you agree? If so what do you think should come next? If not, why?

I was thinking either add a third game using a new mechanic and four new factions or making a time skip and starting up again with newer technology, (Not sci-fi) while still allowing the old models to be fielded.

[unclebiggins]

I think that they have another two or three god sized expansions for each faction left before they start becoming inflated. Its important that each faction keep its only individual quirks and playstyles maintained as the game evolves.

I still believe their are archetypes, strategies, model and rule types and tactics within the perview of each of the five WM factions and the four hordes factions to grow.

I also believe that their is near infinite possibility outside of these factions within mercenaries that can be explored.

Also, I think each faction could gain half a dozen more warcasters before they reach critical mass.

[amphoterik]

I imagine the worry is that soon every faction will be able to do everything as well as every other faction and the game will become very generic. However, I trust PP to keep advancing each factions unique abilities further and further to define the roles of the factions and keep the game fresh for a long time.

[PPS_Mod:Josh]

Back around Escalation, everyone started asking this in one form or another. How will they come up with more stuff? How many books can they print? How will they stop all the factions from becoming identical? General consensus was that there wasn't enough room to keep adding more units and warcasters without overlap.

We've how got Apotheosis, Superiority, and Legends available and they've got new ideas for each of the four original factions. There's plans in place to return to the all-faction update books once the Forces of Warmachine books are out and we've got stats for everything that was Mk I. Since people started asking what could be next, there's been allies, cavalry, epic warcasters, legendary jacks, and a whole new faction. Amongst other things.

I think it's safe to say any rumors of Warmachine's demise (or genericization) are greatly exaggerated. Whether they're happening yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

[Haight]

I don't see the ability for each faction to do any vector well to be a particular problem. Thinking about it in a logically abstract sense, armies don't fight wars like Rock Paper Scissors. Combined arms and tactics are used to defeat the enemy.

Same in warmachine. One thing i disliked about tournaments back in the escalation and apotheosis era was that it was very easy for me to go to tournaments with two lists - one anti-khador / anti-menoth, the other anti-cygnar / anti-cryx. I could make very good contingency lists that covered those eventualities.

If i went to a tournament using that same logic that I applied back then, I would assume and expect to get blown out of the water.

The point is that every expansion expands the game, but I think there's a flip side to the "critical mass" argument, and that argument is that "everything that expands the options for a faction means its harder and harder to meta against that faction - which results in a game more focused on using pieces well, and thinking on your feet, rather than merely putting the most optimal combination of pieces together which has a high propensity of countering the most likely tricks of another faction.

One of the things that i LOVE about MK2 is that MK2 really allows the players (and their player groups) to choose to play warmachine as a skirmish level game, or a low level army sized game with equality. I like the fact that i can play a quick 20-25 point game in under an hour, or my buds and I can spend an entire evening fighting out a huge 75-100 point engagement. We're at the point now where when i fight one of my friends using Khador, or Menoth, or cryx, and to some degree even the hordes factions, I find myself making balanced lists with modules that cover many contingencies while still sticking to my game plan for that game. This is due mainly to the options all the factions now have (less so for hordes, but even they are getting there, IMHO).

Meanwhile, my opponents have commented on exactly the same thing with the ret. Though they know that i favor melee beat down armies, they also know that i sometimes like to mix up with magic heavy rahn lists, or shooting heavy kaelyssa lists, or even oddballthings (for me) like Vyros running 2-3 hydras. So they end up trying to cover their bases too rather than preparing for one static contingency trick.


Overall, i think more options are actually better for the game. I dont' think that more options will ever equate to "all factions are generic and therefore equal". Khador is always going to have higher armor. Cygnar's always going to have more denial. Menoth is always going to have more synergy and anti-synergy. Cryx is always going to do really whacky stuff that no one else can. Etc. etc. It's just that there will be so much of it, that you can't say "oh, i'm fighting cryx - take XYZ, and i have eight of ten of my bases covered." That kind of thinking is obsolete now... at least to me.


-- haight

[MagnustheJust]

The game is not.

However, some of the players are... :P :P :P

{And yes, I include myself in this number}

[Writer@Large]

I was worried about this very thing around when LEGENDS hit. With MKII, though, they have been able, IMO, to redefine each army enough that they've still got places to explore. To a degree, each army can do a little LESS now, is what I mean--they are more focused in their abilities--but they are each BETTER at what they do.

--W@L

[Lord of Death]

No, it's not even close.

As Josh said people have been saying this since Escalation.

Think of all the units with out attachments. We could have the "Super Unit Solos" (ie. Finn) for every unit, several weapon attachments, more cavalry, etc, etc, etc. And the Sky is the limit on Warcasters.

[Alienated One]

Didn't Matt Wilson say a while back, that they have the rules drawn up for Epic versions of warcasters that we havent even seen yet? I think this shows they have it planned out a few years ahead. I know I was amazed when Matt said that they were 5 expansions ahead in Monpoc at GenCon.

[jean1951]

Hello,

I have been playing Warmachine/Hordes since June 2009. I am not really at a crossed roads where I have started to ask questions. I am discovering new things every time I read or play a game. Since it is a game the limitation are squarely on the shoulder of the creator imagination.

As I was reading someone said the factions will start to look alike. With time I would imagine that captured weaponery would be reproduced. An example is fighting a Cygnar gun riddled army. Enventually captured weapons will become available.

There are something that may have to be address in the future. You should not be able to be at war continuously. There is a population issue. You run out of people for most factions. So no more soldiers, material nothing. With that said new venues open up. You may have revolts (Butcher Khador), fragmentation of population, warlords popping
up (Minor warcasters). The necromancers seem to be digging everywhere something may pop up. We are taking about one continent. And the continent has not fully been explored yet.

I strongly believe the game will be okay for a long time if in essence what is presented to the public is logical.

Cordially yours,

Jean

[Alienated One]

And as a follow up, if they do indeed get to the point where there are too many units, solos, etc. They could always release a book called "Who's Who of the Iron Kingdoms" and put X new warcasters for each faction in the book. That would diversify the game alot I think.

[PPS_Mod:Polar_Bear]

And as a follow up, if they do indeed get to the point where there are too many units, solos, etc. They could always release a book called "Who's Who of the Iron Kingdoms" and put X new warcasters for each faction in the book. That would diversify the game alot I think.

They did that already. It was called Apotheosis.

They'd also stated, at the time, they never want to do that sort of thing again, if they can avoid it.


But as has been mentioned, people have been saying "Is the game almost over with!?" since... well, Josh says Escalation. I'd bet if I looked I could find one that said that back with just Prime, to be honest.

PB

[Lord of Death]

I don't know about that. Even Merv was a positive force on the forum during the just Prime Era.

[Alienated One]

They did that already. It was called Apotheosis.

They'd also stated, at the time, they never want to do that sort of thing again, if they can avoid it.


But as has been mentioned, people have been saying "Is the game almost over with!?" since... well, Josh says Escalation. I'd bet if I looked I could find one that said that back with just Prime, to be honest.

PB

That being said, they could also go the route of the Pirates book, and put a book out of mercs that will work for every faction.

[thesavage]

You guys are forgetting that somewhere way, way down the road, they could add another faction, like they did with Retribution of Scyrah. My guess is, that if they do add another faction, it will be with Hordes first, but who knows, we may see a Llael guerrilla force.

[Gorbad]

Another thing to remember with the "every faction can do everything" argument is that even when we do get new options, we are not getting everything at once. I won't be able to make a traditional Cygnar shooty army with the high armour of Khador and the synergy and denial of Menoth. I just won't be able to fit everything into one army, and invariably you end up with an army focus on something specific with a dash of something else. We get more options for that something else but that's it.

[CT GAMER]

Warmachine is my favorite miniature wargame, however I've begun to think that soon the factions will be pretty much complete when it comes to 'caster, 'jack, unit and solo choices. Besides resculpts and plastic remakes.

Do you agree? If so what do you think should come next? If not, why?

I was thinking either add a third game using a new mechanic and four new factions or making a time skip and starting up again with newer technology, (Not sci-fi) while still allowing the old models to be fielded.

I have always said that i would love to see a sci-fi game from PP based upon the hordes/WM rules engine. That being said I would want a new setting and not "IK40K".

I'd like to see a Vor style game with humans and alien races donr PP style battling it out in an interesting futuristic setting...

I'd also love to see PP's take on a "Weird War II" skirmish game again using the WM/HORDES rules engine.

As for the IK/WM: I'd like to see a new alternate time WM expansion (sort of a "WM historical") maybe set during the Orgoth invasion or what not. Have Orgoth as a faction, as well as some of the current factions but presented as they would have been then. Battle of The Tongue era Warmachine, etc. ,etc.

[Aries37]

Everytime the game gets stale just rewrite the rule book and redo all the cards. Worked from mk1 -> mk2, works for GW products, it will work here.

Also many more factions are needed. When you can own 2 different armies things get stale far less quickly, and due to a far greater variety of armies to play against everything stays fresh.

[Redphantasm]

My hope for what's next? A Mordheim/Necromunda style skirmish game. Pull back, get away from the armies, get away from there always being named characters on the field. Get a group of guy doing small unit actions. Make the stats more specific, the rules more detailed, and add an XP system. You could do some right sick things with a system like that....

[Alienated One]

My hope for what's next? A Mordheim/Necromunda style skirmish game. Pull back, get away from the armies, get away from there always being named characters on the field. Get a group of guy doing small unit actions. Make the stats more specific, the rules more detailed, and add an XP system. You could do some right sick things with a system like that....

Amen. I would buy this game up in a heartbeat.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

My hope is that they'll finally have multiple UAs for each unit. Shoot, add 1 for each unit into a book and you're set.

[Gorbad]

My hope for what's next? A Mordheim/Necromunda style skirmish game. Pull back, get away from the armies, get away from there always being named characters on the field. Get a group of guy doing small unit actions. Make the stats more specific, the rules more detailed, and add an XP system. You could do some right sick things with a system like that....

They already have a game like that. The IK RPG.

[Redphantasm]

They already have a game like that. The IK RPG.

The IK RPG is a small squad mordheim esq skirmish game? I don't think I got that memo.

[saxondog]

I don't see how PP would ever stop adding casters and solos.
Even units seem pretty open ended at this point.
6-8 years from now when MKIII is being released and every book release between now and then this subject will keep coming up.
I personally think we have years of quality products to come.

SFK

[sholthaus]

Imagination has no limits

[Brandubh]

My hope for what's next? A Mordheim/Necromunda style skirmish game. Pull back, get away from the armies, get away from there always being named characters on the field. Get a group of guy doing small unit actions. Make the stats more specific, the rules more detailed, and add an XP system. You could do some right sick things with a system like that....

Or they could go the other way, streamline the whole thing and make it a large scale table-top game where you can field 4-5 casters and hundreds of infantry and still get the battle over in a reasonable amount of time. At that point, you could add all sorts of new ideas in like naval warfare, siege rules or even larger engines of war.

[Alienated One]

Or they could go the other way, streamline the whole thing and make it a large scale table-top game where you can field 4-5 casters and hundreds of infantry and still get the battle over in a reasonable amount of time. At that point, you could add all sorts of new ideas in like naval warfare, siege rules or even larger engines of war.

And they could make a campaign system, that is customizable, where you can control your army and fight battles.

[HellecticMojo]

Everytime the game gets stale just rewrite the rule book and redo all the cards.

Also many more factions are needed. When you can own 2 different armies things get stale far less quickly, and due to a far greater variety of armies to play against everything stays fresh.

you make this sound so easy.

do you remember the FTs?

to those who think WM might be getting bloated. Until Cryx get a arm 20 non unique heavy, cygnar gets electric railguns, Khador get a arc node light, Protectorate get a deliverer choir UA the game won't be bloated.

"It's that guy, that flies that plane!"

[Khador247]

People have been saying this for years but PP has done a great job of bringing out new products that keep us buying. Now there is a new edition of the game that has me more excited about WM than I have been in a long time. I really like what I'm seeing with MKII. I can build a balaned list and be competitive. I can't go troop heavy and be competitive. I can go jack heavy and be competitive. I can use more of my casters and be competitive.

I'm pretty much locked in to buying new casters, solos, and jacks for Khador. The only things that I pause on are 10 man infantry units. I use a commission painting service and 10 man units can be pricey. If I like the rules enough though I'll still buy them.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

And they could make a campaign system, that is customizable, where you can control your army and fight battles.

I'd love to see smaller, Escalation-style campaign systems. That was a really neat idea.

I'd even settle with those once a year in lieu of a few models.

[psycnarf]

I still don't see any steam powered vehicle models so the end is still far

[Jack Spratt]

I believe that "critical mass" is many years into the future, but I also think that there is a possibility, that the quality of the game wil be reduced as we get closer to "critical mass". I like the limitations in each faction and hope that they stay pretty much unchanged, any reference to reality and what people "really do" in war are completely irrelevant here.

My personal hope is that PP will reduce the additions to the "old" factions to just a few things each year and instead focus on the smaller factions or simply come up with new factions. Extra love for Pirates, Retribution, and Merc contracts. Maby some extra love for the Horde factions, most of all some new warlocks and a lot of stuff for minions now they seem to get their own "true" warlocks.

Hordes was a brilliant idea and a new "game" sometime in the far far future would just be really cool. Something with dinosaurs please, I like dinosaurs, they are so cool. They were cool when I was a kid and now with kids of my own I still think they rock. Dinosaur cavalry, how about that? Everybody wants it even if they will not admit to it. You just know it.

On a different and slightly irrelevant note I hope they will focus on updating old models and convert a lot of them into plastic. The quality of PP plastic is really good.

[Jack Spratt]

Ahh, if I could choose a new and really seperate game I would go for something in a really small scale akin to Epic. It holds a lot of possibilities and could really open up for new things.

[artificer]

Are we back at DOOM already? The actual Mk2 book hasn't even hit shelves yet

[Rosicrucian]

I do wonder about the impact of a constantly growing number of models on retailers who want to stock the full line.

[Azurath]

Everytime the game gets stale just rewrite the rule book and redo all the cards. Worked from mk1 -> mk2, works for GW products, it will work here.

Also many more factions are needed. When you can own 2 different armies things get stale far less quickly, and due to a far greater variety of armies to play against everything stays fresh.

I think this is exactly what they should NOT EVER DO! It doesn't work for GW. I know many people, myself included, who have abandoned very large WH/WH40K armies because of GW's practices of redoing things for no reason other then they couldn't come up with anything genuinely new. I don't want to have to learn a new system every couple of years that made changes for the sake of making changes. Mk I --> Mk II works because there were legitimate changes that the community at large felt were needed. You only fix things that are broken. Change just for the sake of change would, I believe, be an actual downfall for this, or any, game.

[Azurath]

I think the way for PP to continue moving forward, while not neglecting the main factions, is through the Allies mechanic. You can still add options to the existing factions while also giving some support to an independent force. That mechanic provides for a large avenue of expansion.

I also think we are going to see, likely through the Ally mechanic, other major organizations, such as the Church of Morrow, Thamarites, and maybe (hopefully) the Cult of Cyriss.

But while I do think they need to be careful, I am confident that they can move forward without glutting the game for a few years at least.

[petetsm]

I think this is one of the primary reasons Privateer moved to MKII. One of the design goals of MKII was to simplify and consolidate the growing "rules bloat" that we were seeing with the release of each new book. Its a case of simplifying in order to grow. I dont doubt that there are folks out there that knew every MKI model rule like the back of their hand, but how many more expansions would it take before those people's "mind space" starts filling up? Let alone for the rest of us, or new players, or for the playtesters who are trying to tease out all the broken combos?

While we will all mourn the loss of all the flavorful little rules left behind with MKI, by simplifying Privateer has pushed the boundary of "critical mass" out by many years. It allows them to come out with new models, new rules, and new themes, without the factions becoming generic. In short, MKII paves the way for the coming years of excellent tabletop gaming.

[megatron0]

The good thing about having an open ended story line is that they could always do something really dramatic and do a 'what if' scenario for example Cygnar invaded Khador and kicked the empress out. WIth that you could have a book with new rules for the same models but reflecting the flavour of new and strange events
while still being able to keep the original Khador

[PuppetRebel]

Someone had mentioned military resources running out and it gave me an idea of a possible expansion. In Mechwarrior clix, I believe it was Dark Age they had agromechs, mechs not designed for war but shanghaied into military service as it were. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure I've read mention of similar 'jacks and I think that would be cool to see.