Manticore: an in-depth discussion

[Lord Xalys]

A good day to you, my fellow Mage Hunters,

Today’s installment concerns the Manticore, one of our heavy myrmidons. It is probably our most hard-hitting, but also most versatile ‘jack. The Manticore is an exponent of the Retribution’s attitude toward warfare: be ready for anything! Let me now what you think; feedback and discussion is welcomed and encouraged as always.

Here we go!


Manticore

”Calling this myrmidon after an ancient word for ‘maneater’ seemed to be dead on, don’t you say, Praxys?”




Stats
The three heavy myrmidons available to the Retribution to date, including the Manticore, all share the same chassis. They are fast for heavy ’jacks at SPD6, granting them a basic threat range of 9.5” on the charge. The STR of a heavy myrmidon is not great at 10, so for decent slam damage you’ll want to boost damage. Both these stats equal that of a standard Cryxian or Circle heavy. On a Manticore though, the STR stat is a little misleading (see Skills & Abilities)…
A heavy myrmidon has a MAT of 6, equaling that of a basic Khadoran or Protectorate heavy. You’ll hit DEF13 on average with 2d6, which means you are able to hit every non-Legion/non-Circle heavy out there without a boost to hit. Their RAT of 5 is on the low side relatively, like that of their standard Cryxian or Protectorate counterparts. You’ll need a boost to hit more often with a ranged attack, but luckily the Manticore also has a firing mode that doesn’t require a to hit roll at all.
The DEF12 and ARM18 of a heavy myrmidon are similar to that of a basic Cygnaran heavy. The Manticore won’t be missed by an attack often, but it’ll happen on more occasions then with a Khadoran heavy. When it gets hit, a heavy myrmidon’s armor will hold up to some beatings, but that’s not where its resilience comes from.
For a myrmidon’s defining aspect is its Field Generator. The Manticore’s damage grid might look like that of a Cryxian Slayer at first glance, but you should imagine another 10 boxes in it: this is the Arcantrik Field, which sucks up damage until it’s depleted. Luckily it can be regenerated d3 boxes by the ‘jack, with a focus point.
A Manticore will cost you 8 points, which means this is our cheapest heavy.


Weapons & Attacks
Looking at the model, you’ll immediately notice the huge arm blades of the Manticore. These Saber Fists are its defining weapons. They hit at a standard P+S15, which beats up low-ARM enemies just fine.
When you need a little more ‘oomph’ though, a Manticore can perform a Combo Strike *Attack. This means you can plant a P+S20 wherever you need it, which comes in handy when you’re in a situation where you probably won’t get more than one strike in (like against a Revenger with its Repulsor Shield), or when you need to kill the target in one hit.
Keeping in line with heavy myrmidon design philosophy, the Manticore also has a ranged weapon: the Cyclone Cannon. Being able to fulfill multiple rolls by being proficient in more than one attack discipline (in this case melee and ranged), is what defines the flexibility of a Retribution heavy. The Manticore’s unmatched in this approach, as the Cyclone Cannon has two firing modes. Both benefit from the Magical property, so wraiths and Menite ‘jacks beware!
The Cyclone Cannon’s normal ranged attack is a RNG12, POW12 shot. This is equal to a Handcannon shot, which is nothing to scoff at. Better still, the gun is ROF3! As the Manticore’s RAT isn’t spectacular, it will either need to get the aiming bonus, boost the to hit roll or pick a low-DEF target (or any combination of the three of course). A POW12 with boosted damage can put some serious dents in whatever it hits, so you should be going for medium/heavy infantry or light ‘jacks/’beasts. Warcasters and warlocks are fair game as well, obviously: as I said with the Stormfall Archers, “boosted POW12’s kill ‘casters (I believe it was Haight who coined this iconic phrase, though I’m not sure).
In normal circumstances, a Manticore with full focus allocation (3 points) can fire:

• One boosted (either to hit or to damage) shot and two unboosted shots;

• One fully boosted (both to hit and to damage) shot and one unboosted shot.

Apart from simply blasting holes in people and other random stuff, the Manticore can also focus its fire on a select part of the battlefield. This mode, the Covering Fire *Action, allows you to place a 3”AOE anywhere completely within the Cyclone Cannon’s current RNG (yes, Snipe affects this), whereby its center point has to be within LOS of the Manticore (ignoring intervening models). Every model entering or ending its activation in the AOE suffers a POW12 damage roll. This superb firing mode thus allows the Manticore to deny the enemy part of the battlefield: most infantry will simply die when they walk into this zone of death, while higher-ARM models (barring maybe heavy ‘jacks and ‘casters with overboosted power fields) will feel the hurt. The AOE stays put for a round or until the Manticore that generated it is destroyed, whichever happens first.
Covering Fire allows you to shield certain approaches to your battle line. Of course, this tool of denial increases in effectiveness with each Manticore using it: you can shield entire units or sections of the battlefield when placing multiple AOEs next to each other. Inversely, you can force your opponents to move his models away as you cover them with the AOE (like on, say, a unit of Long Gunners).
Moreover, the definition of entering also covers involuntary movement like pushes or slams: if a target model is pushed or slammed into the AOE, it will suffer the POW12 (see the Infernal ruling on this here).
Also, as worded, you can stack multiple AOEs on top of each other (see the Infernal ruling on this here), forcing enemies to take multiple POW12 damage rolls. In the event you will have several Manticore’s all shooting the same piece of land to hell, anyone dumb enough to go and/or stay there will receive as many POW12 damage rolls as there are Manticores firing.
Take note! The AOE does not discriminate, so don’t lay it there where your own models need to go (read: enter and end their activations) if their ARM can’t take the hit. You can still lay the AOE on top of friendly models, as long as they’ve ended their activations already. Remember, enemy models without Reach cannot attack a model that has the AOE directly on top of it without taking that POW12! This makes for quite an effective deterrent for non-Reach enemies: solos, unit leaders, and of course warcasters gain significant protection from a zone of POW12 damage rolls, allowing them to overextend themselves and mitigate the possible retaliation (thanks to thecsharian for reminding me to put this here).

Skills & Abilities
If you want even more power out of a standard attack or a Combo Strike, the Manticore has a beautiful ability called Force Generator. By spending 1 focus point, the Manticore can gain +3 STR. This brings the myrmidon to STR13, which is at the top of the spectrum for any ‘jack or ‘beast. With the Force Generator active, the Manticore’s Saber Fists become P+S18 each, and the Combo Strike even reaches a whopping P+S23!
The Force Generator doesn’t only benefit the Manticore’s punches though: this myrmidon is our best power attacker. Slam damage increases, Tramples can kill harder targets and (two-handed) Throws not only become far harder to resist but can also toss an enemy 1.5” farther.
All this flexibility and power comes at a price, of course. Just like every other myrmidon, the Manticore is Field Dependent. This means that when the ‘jack’s Field Generator is crippled, it loses access to systems that derive their power from the arcantrik field. In the case of the Manticore, a crippled generator denies it the use of the Force Generator and the Cyclone Cannon. So no +3 STR, no normal ranged attacks and no Covering Fire!

[Lord Xalys]

Synergy & Sample Tactics

• Dawnlord Vyros works very well with the Manticore. Not only do these two both hit like a freight train, which allows for some spectacular combo charges, but Bird’s Eye increases the Manticore’s effectiveness at both range and in melee. It can charge backwards from the other side of a Forest, or shoot from the same position through them trees. It can send multiple POW12 shots into a target while ignoring intervening models. Add Mobility to that, bringing the Manticore up to SPD8 with Pathfinder (which combos great with Bird’s Eye) and giving it a 11.5” threat range. Then cast Hallowed Avenger on it and let it escort a chosen infantry unit (or even Destors, which have the same SPD as a myrmidon with Mobility on it!). If you you’re playing all-‘jacks, or simply if you want to, Inviolable Resolve bumps the Manticore to ARM20. All in all great reasons to field this cheapest of heavy ‘jacks with the Dawnlord!

• Rahn likes the Manticore for the fact that it gives him the ability to take down high ARM, which his spell list doesn’t (not directly at least). Shielding advancing Houseguard and Battle Mages (in a tier list for example) is also a must. The Manticore in turn benefits from Telekinesis, which extends the ‘jack’s threat range with 2" (TK cast only on ‘jack) to 4” (TK cast on both ‘jack and target). This spell also allows the Manticore to move 2", then let it retain the aiming bonus during its activation, which mitigates its mediocre RAT without losing momentum (again thanks to thecsharian for this addendum). Furthermore a well-timed Force Blast can free the Manticore from a mob of enemies, so it can charge a more critical target. Force Hammer then can either set up a target for a devastating sequence of automatically hitting punches from the Manticore, or slam an unfortunate target into the Covering Fire AOE. Of course, Rahns abundance of focus also helps this ‘jack, which can be quite focus-intensive at times!

• If only because of the shared predilection for arm blades, I’d like to pair Garryth with a Manticore. But fluff reasons aside, the Blade of Retribution has a lot to offer to a ‘jack: both Mirage and Gallows increase its threat range, and Death Sentence increases its hitting effectiveness on both melee and ranged attacks. A solid choice.

• Ravyn’s focus on supporting ranged attackers increases the effectiveness of the Cyclone Cannon: Snipe extends the RNG to 16 (which affects Covering Fire as well!), while the Fire Storm feat grants the Manticore boosted ranged attack rolls and a 2” move after each kill. This translates into a Manticore that can shoot farther, is more focus efficient (free attack boosts means more focus for damage boosts or additional attacks) and could potentially move 6” during its combat action (after 3 kills). Ravyn can further increase the Manticore’s physical threat range by a maximum of 3” with Locomotion. Thanks to Veil of Mists the Manticore can shoot or charge from behind relative safety, and Vortex of Destruction increases focus efficiency when aiding Ravyn in hand-to-hand combat. What’s not to love?

• Kaelyssa as well could do worse than bringing a Manticore along. She has sufficient focus to power it, can shield it from harmful magic with Banishing Ward and allow it to damage a ‘caster by proxy due to Backlash (doing damage is no problem for a Manticore). Arcantrik Bolt makes hitting easy, saving precious focus for a savage beatdown, while Phantom Seeker allows for similar LOS negating shenanigans as Vyros’ hawk. Kaelyssa’s feat gives the Manticore Stealth for a round, as well as making it non-chargeable. Both benefits drastically improve survivability that one round. Again a very robust choice.

• Obviously the Arcanist is one of the most synergistic models to deploy with any myrmidon, because of its Repair ability. Fixing a crippled Field Generator to restore a ‘jack to full functionality alone is worth that measly 1 point the guy costs. The Manticore has even more to gain with an Arcanist at its side, with regard to its use as a frontline brawler: Concentrated Power allows the Manticore to make its standard melee attacks at an effective P+S20, which increases its effectiveness against ARM18-20 enemies (i.e. heavy ‘jacks) dramatically. Furthermore, it allows the Manticore to make a Combo Strike at an effective P+S25… which means you roll dice damage against a closed Devastator. Autch. The +2 on melee damage rolls also counts when resolving slam, throw or trample damage! The ability to give the Manticore a focus points with Power Booster when it can’t get any (e.g. because it was Disrupted, or if it’s being marshaled), is just the icing on the cake.

• The Gorgon is a Manticore’s friend. They make an excellent tag-team together: the Gorgon’s Force Lock keeps an enemy in place for the Manticore to come bearing down, giving the opponent the choice to either scrap the Gorgon and end up with an angry Manticore, or (try to) scrap the Manticore and be stuck for a while longer. Some interesting synergy also exists between the two at range: a Gorgon can lockdown slippery and squishy models, which can then be regaled with a Covering Fire AOE on their heads. If our opponent doesn’t succeed in freeing them, they are likely as good as dead.

• I’ll divide our units and solos into two groups for the Manticore: those that can marshal it and those that can’t. The first group, encompassing the Dawnguard Invictors, Sentinels and Scyir, can all benefit from a Manticore’s melee prowess (especially with an Arcanist tagging along). The Scyir in particular grants a Manticore a powerful reroll for those hairy Combo Strikes, and can send it (counter)charging through himself or a line of friendly Dawnguard. While Covering Fire benefits all models in our faction, it does more so for that second group, which can generally take a hit less well than a Dawnguard in Defensive Line. Shielding the enemy’s approach to your line of Houseguard Riflemen, or dropping the AOE dead center over a Mage Hunter Assassin after she’s made her attack run, can be golden.

• Hired help can take a Manticore to new heights. Lanyssa Ryssyl can provide a stationary target on occasion (Ice Bolt, Sorrow), but is more useful for a free charge or slam with +2”. Lady Aiyana can either grant the Manticore a set of Magical melee attacks (the Cyclone Cannon is Magical already) or add another +2 damage to the recipient of its wrath (oh man). Kiss of Lyliss also works on an enemy model/unit suffering from Covering Fire damage rolls, meaning effective POW14 damage rolls! If you’re feeling either really lucky (as DEF12 isn’t that hot) or just love to play psychological games, giving the Manticore Riposte with Dahlia Hallyr or Skarath can be fun: after all, a well aimed P+S15 smack on your opponent’s turn is never a waste.

• On a final note, consider once again the helpfulness of a good knockdown with the Manticore. The more chance it has to hit, the more damage it can do (which is always good in my book). The Battle Mages thus work well with a Manticore around, as does a Magister. As for the latter, try the ‘Moving Wall Smack’ on for size: take a small- or medium-based target and Combo Smite it into the Manticore (thus dealing it 15+3d6 damage). If the target is still alive after that, pound it into the ground with the waiting myrmidon… Both the Battle Mages and Magister also have synergy with Covering Fire, like Rahn does: a target that is pushed or slammed into the AOE takes the POW12 (as it counts as entering!
  

Koldun Lord Mayerovich grinned as he saw the feeble Iosan machine striding towards his position. He directed one of his Juggernauts towards it, fully expecting it to demolish the enemy ‘jack with contemptuous ease. As the machine these elves called Manticore reeled from the initial impact of the Ice Axe, its bladed arms started to shimmer with arcane power. Mayerovich frowned as he saw both a Iosan sword-wielding noble in armor and some mechanic give attention to their stricken ‘jack. Then, the Manticore clasped its fists and brought both arm blades down on the Juggernaut with an earth shattering strike. The Greylord’s face contorted with sheer disbelief as his ‘jack was nearly ripped in half and crumpled to the ground in a mass of plating and pistons. Seconds later, his disbelief turned into horror as a crystalline node on the Iosan monster released a blinding light in his direction.

Cheers,
LX

[thecsharian]

Another nice article.

One extra thing with Rahn, is telekinesis can often give it the extra rush it needs to forfeit its movement and aim with its guns... pushing it's effective RAT to the definitely hitting warrior models without boosts. With two focus it can be a pretty good method for thinning an enemy advance.

And with covering fire, onee thing I haven't seen mentioned much, is that you can place it over any of our warcasters, and they are then immune from melee attacks made by most non-reach warrior models. - handy when some casters like to get pretty close to the enemy,

[Demeritus]

Another great writeup man. Keep them coming. I dig the Manticore (both before and after this).

[Lord Xalys]

Another nice article.

One extra thing with Rahn, is telekinesis can often give it the extra rush it needs to forfeit its movement and aim with its guns... pushing it's effective RAT to the definitely hitting warrior models without boosts. With two focus it can be a pretty good method for thinning an enemy advance.

And with covering fire, onee thing I haven't seen mentioned much, is that you can place it over any of our warcasters, and they are then immune from melee attacks made by most non-reach warrior models. - handy when some casters like to get pretty close to the enemy,

Indeed things to mention, which I omitted because of the time of day I was writing (again). I'll post back when I made some changes. Thx!

LX

[ChristianAas]

Another great write-up!

There's nothing better to wake up, make your morning coffee and sit down with a new "in-depth" article.

The Manticore feels like a really great buy for the Retribution, well worth it's 8 points. The ability to finish off damage enemy heavies is a great asset, since as a quite shooty faction it can be hard to shoot down other heavies. Damage them, yes, but not finishing them. The Manticore can do that in one strike!

[Lord Xalys]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

Things I added just now:

- Extra text on Covering Fire, including involuntary entering and warcaster protection (thx thecsharian);
- Infernal rulings on involuntary entering and the stacking of AOEs concerning Covering Fire;
- Rahn's Telekinesis in regard to the aiming bonus (thx thecsharian) and synergy between Force Hammer and Covering Fire;
- Synergy between Battle Mages/Magisters and Covering Fire.

Cheers,
LX

[WombatJuggernaut]

In normal circumstances, a Manticore with full focus allocation (3 points) can fire:

• Two boosted (either to hit or to damage) shots and one unboosted shot;

• One fully boosted (both to hit and to damage) shot and one unboosted shot.

Nice post... is the math above right? I think you should be able to get 2 unboosted plus one boosted (either to hit or to damage).

[Lord Xalys]

Nice post... is the math above right? I think you should be able to get 2 unboosted plus one boosted (either to hit or to damage).

Thanks for the rectification, seems like I mixed up the numbers in that first example.

LX

[WombatJuggernaut]

So this brings up an interesting idea that I was having, of which I have no idea how feasible it might be, so bear with me. We have infernal ruling that 1) stacking covering fire causes multiple pow 12s, and 2) pushing someone into covering fire causes them to get hit. I think you probably see where I'm going with this...

Drop 2-3+ covering fires, and start pushing things in. That's an average 19 damage roll on each one, plus the 17 from the battle mages (they're pow 10 right?). That seems like it could stack up pretty quickly, and be pretty great for taking out multiwound or higher arm troopers (even if they are up to arm 19, 3 rolls should have a good chance of getting an above average hit). Even light beasts/jacks with their lighter armor could have some serious issues here. Sure, you're devoting a lot of points to this, but it's not like if it doesn't work your points are wasted, you've still got 2-3 myrms who can put out a serious melee beating. I believe the same synergy exists with rahn and his movement spells pushing things into the crossfire.

So what do you guys think, would there be enough push into fire opportunities, in an average game, to justify this strategy? Are there enough targets worth pulling through like that?

Does anyone feel like crunching some numbers to get a feel for how effective this would be against light jacks/beasts? Keep in mind that it may be possible to push/pull a heavier target through the fire multiple times in one turn with a unit of mages, or at least pull them into it and then put them behind it again.

Any other models that might synergize well with this strategy? I'm thinking that lighter heavies (or lights) would be good targets for this, and it might work well with kaelyssa-feedback type armies. That's a few extra pings off their caster's health, in addition to anything that your crossbows can plink off.

The really nice thing about this is that your manticores are firing off their covering fire for 0 focus. It would, however, get very focus hungry once you got into melee.

[Festablo]

Awesome! Thanks for doing these articles, they really help the newbies such as myself learn. If a moderator is reading these do you think we could have them stickied?

[WombatJuggernaut]

Awesome! Thanks for doing these articles, they really help the newbies such as myself learn. If a moderator is reading these do you think we could have them stickied?

Links to all of them are stickied in one post -

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=287

much cleaner and less obtrusive while still offering all the same ease of navigation.

[Lord Xalys]

Links to all of them are stickied in one post -

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=287

much cleaner and less obtrusive while still offering all the same ease of navigation.

Thanks, WJ. Yeah, while I'd love to have all of my articles stickied seperately, that doesn't improve navigability and all.

Also, if anyone still wants to reply to my articles, go ahead! Thread Necro ain't that bad in this case, as every feedback and discussion improves our faction and community IMHO.

Just don't turn articles into eldritch... then I'll have to kill you.

Ontopic: WJ's combination of pushing/slamming stuff into stacked Covering Fire templates would indeed work. The best targets for this would be multiwound enemies and/or enemies that potentially require multiple damage rolls. Exemplar Bastions come to mind, or Trollkin Champions ("Ha, I made my Tough roll!" "Good for you, now make another."

LX

[Lazlo]

Synergy & Sample Tactics

The ability to give the Manticore a focus points with Power Booster when it can?t get any (e.g. because its cortex is busted, it was Disrupted, or if it?s being marshaled), is just the icing on the cake.

Great article, as usual, Xalys.

Just one little nit...having an arcanist give a 'jack with a busted cortex a focus is useless, as a crippled cortex "cannot spend focus points for any reason."

[thecsharian]

WJ's combination of pushing/slamming stuff into stacked Covering Fire templates would indeed work.

The only problem with it is that it requires chunk of models to work - two Manitcores and a unit of Mages is 23pts, and those are the bare minimum requirements.

Just one little nit...having an arcanist give a 'jack with a busted cortex a focus is useless, as a crippled cortex "cannot spend focus points for any reason."

You'll just need a second Arcanist to repair it first then

[Lord Xalys]

Great article, as usual, Xalys.

Just one little nit...having an arcanist give a 'jack with a busted cortex a focus is useless, as a crippled cortex "cannot spend focus points for any reason."

Amended, thanks! Got nu excuse for that one...

The only problem with it is that it requires chunk of models to work - two Manitcores and a unit of Mages is 23pts, and those are the bare minimum requirements.

Two Manticores and a unit of Battle Mages cost 21pts (8+8+5). And I always factor in warjack points, so it would actually cost between 14pts (with Kaelyssa) and 16pts (with Garryth). Still, I never said it wasn't pricey...

LX

[ChristianAas]

I just get the feeling that you guys are taking it one step to far. Yes, it is possible to put out 2-3 Covering Fire (Requiring 2-3 Manticores) and then with the Battle Mages start to push things in the AoE's, but you are aware that with some Focus the Manticores are able to put out 3 shots each? With some Arcanists it is not that expensive. The main usage of the Covering Fire is to block charge-lanes, and it could be fun to sometimes push things as well, but it's very situational.

Often it is better to just shoot in the first place.

[thecsharian]

...it's very situational...

That it is, but it's worth mentioning for any situation it way occur in.

The thing to notice is that while the manticores can each hit three models, using the doubled "covering fires" and 'pushing' with the Battle mages (or otherwise) hits each model three times - this could be very useful against annoying tough trolls, or swarms of high DMG models.

It's not something to build an army around, but definitely something to remember just in case.

[Lord Xalys]

I just get the feeling that you guys are taking it one step to far. Yes, it is possible to put out 2-3 Covering Fire (Requiring 2-3 Manticores) and then with the Battle Mages start to push things in the AoE's, but you are aware that with some Focus the Manticores are able to put out 3 shots each? With some Arcanists it is not that expensive. The main usage of the Covering Fire is to block charge-lanes, and it could be fun to sometimes push things as well, but it's very situational.

Often it is better to just shoot in the first place.

The 'pushing stuff into multiple AOEs' is only a single tactic and requires many resources, yes.

But, personally, I'd say Covering Fire is a far better reason to take the Manticore than its normal ranged attacks. It costs nu focus whatsoever and does not require the Manticore to make attack rolls (it's RAT5 after all, so good chance that you'll need a boost). It's great that it can potentially pump out 3 shots, yes, but the uses of Covering Fire far outweigh that of standard shooting IMHO (see my article).

Also remember that a marshaled Manticore (which is not that strange) can use Covering Fire, but cannot shoot thrice.

LX

[rodders]

nice write up its cemented my choice for the start of my Ret force to go with Garryth I can see him getting real mileage out of a manticore

[WombatJuggernaut]

The only problem with it is that it requires chunk of models to work - two Manitcores and a unit of Mages is 23pts, and those are the bare minimum requirements.

You'll just need a second Arcanist to repair it first then

As Xalys points out, it should be 21 pts (or less) of your force. Granted, that's pretty much going to be your jack loadout, so I don't see any reason not to count the jack points.

The thing about this, as I had already mentioned in my initial post, is that it's not a one trick pony. You're buying some select models to get this done, but they're also models that are very versatile and can adapt to many different situations, it just adds one more trick to the belt.

I just get the feeling that you guys are taking it one step to far. Yes, it is possible to put out 2-3 Covering Fire (Requiring 2-3 Manticores) and then with the Battle Mages start to push things in the AoE's, but you are aware that with some Focus the Manticores are able to put out 3 shots each? With some Arcanists it is not that expensive. The main usage of the Covering Fire is to block charge-lanes, and it could be fun to sometimes push things as well, but it's very situational.

Often it is better to just shoot in the first place.

As others have mentioned, covering fire costs NO focus, that's a big advantage. Essentially the battle mages are freeing up your focus by allowing your manticores to shoot stuff with their covering fire. Yes, you could bring an arcanist into the mix, but they can only give a focus to a myrm that doesn't have any, so you're looking at 2 (max) shots with no boosts to hit. Not only does the covering fire autohit (as long as a battlemage brings someone into it, which gives you a few retries), but it ALSO stays there for the enemy's round and still acts as a pain in the butt. Pull a light jack/beast that shoots into a double covering fire for 2 pow 12 hits, if it wants to aim it's going to have to take 2 more.

Anyway, the real point is that I'm not saying "ahh! free pow 12 hits, game breaking", I'm saying that you should add this to your bag of tricks, and if you bring an army composition that allows for it, keep it in mind in case a situation comes up that could utilize it. I still see having 2 mantis and a unit of battle mages as very solid choices in their own rights, and I don't think you're going to have trouble making good use of them.

Bring 3+ manticores may be a little bit crazy here, and gets to be tough on points. On the other hand, it's still not a one trick pony - laying down 3 or more covering fires in a row can put down a really serious wall of "you shall not pass" for units and solos, and the manticores are still our best jack for cracking heavy armor.

I, for one, will be sure to do some testing with this once I get a second manti and a unit of mages all built up, and only the battlefield can tell how useful this may be. I just really like the idea of boosting up those battle mage attacks while also giving them a little extra defense (setting them up so that your opponent needs to charge through fire to get to them).

[thecsharian]

As Xalys points out, it should be 21 pts (or less) of your force.

yes, I cannot count, it's a side effect of my profession

Granted, that's pretty much going to be your jack loadout, so I don't see any reason not to count the jack points.

You shouldn't count the jack points as saying it is only 15pts worth of your army is deceptive. The fact part of it may be paid with jack points could be presumed but shouldn't be implicitly assumed.


To me it looks like it'd be a fun thing to run with Rahn and a line-centric army:
(I dont' know if this is actually a decent list at all).

Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
Chimera
Manticore
Manticore
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts)
1 Soulless Escort
Houseguard Riflemen (Leader and 9 Grunts)
3 Soulless Escorts
Houseguard Riflemen Officer & Standard
2 Arcanists
Ghost Sniper
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios
2 House Shyeel Magisters
2 Mage Hunter Assassins

Riflemen take polarity shield and form a line, flankend by Manticores. Battle mages and Rahn behind the line, pushing pulling what they can. Everythings else sweeps up the flanks to direct and harrass the enemies. When crunch time arrives you can drop your feat and pull everyone into covering fires. Or throw them about for a super charged Manticore crew.

[turok152000]

Also remember that a marshaled Manticore (which is not that strange) can use Covering Fire, but cannot shoot thrice.

Oh, but it can! All you need is an arcanist to give it one focus. It takes it first shot for free (of course), the marshal can give a second shot for free, and the one focus from the arcanist can give it a third shot.

Then again, all three of these shoots are unboosted, but if you forfeit movement, because you used Drive: Pronto, TK, Whip Snap, or one of the many other free movement abilities we have, you basically take these on MAT 7, which isn't too bad.

[bakaryu]

Adding my own contribution to this post:

- A manticore with 3 focus on it can make its covering fire action and still fire three shots as the covering fire does not use up any of its rate of fire.
- A manticore (or two) marshalled to a Sentinel Officer can be pronto'd, advance six inches, advance another six inches in its own turn, drop a covering fire template and still make an additional shot (two if you use power booster from an arcanist)
- I like to use pronto to push two manticores up six inches and then if the enemy is outside of my Sentinel's charge range I will run into melee combat and use the manticores to drop templates on top of what I ran into. Stay and hope to kill a few sentinels and likely die to either the covering fire damage or vengeance in my own turn or flee the templates and eat free strikes and die. Just try to keep the officer away from the fighting with one or two bodyguards to block line of sight to him.

[Kallas]

Covering Fire is a special action. As such, you cannot make additional attacks afterwards unless the special action specifically allows it.

When your model takes an action it does one of the following:
- initial melee attacks, buying additional melee if possible
- initial ranged attacks, buying additional ranged attacks if possible
- make a special attack, buying additional attacks of the type (ie, melee if from a melee weapon.) If no typed source, no additional attacks may be bought unless it states otherwise
- mage a special action. No additional attacks unless it states so.

[Old_one_ear]

Hi guys

Let me just say I'm lovin the postive energy of this thread, you've totally convinced me to buy a manticore!

Now, I may be new to the Retribution, and Warmachine in general, but I believe there is one Manticore trick yet to be mentioned: and that is the awesome combination of the Sentinals Drive-Pronto and a Combo-strike charge. Remember, special attacks counted under the weapon's abilities do not count as power attacks and can be used on the charge (see thread "Combostrike on a charge?" for details).

This affectively give the manticore a 15" charge with POW 20 + 3D6 (4D6 if the arcanist boosts it with a focus, and POW 23 + 4D6 if given focus from a second arcanist). Now, granted this is only at Mat 6, so you'll probably want to knock the target down with battlemages or a banshee first, but holy hell thats a hefty punch to pop on an unsuspecting opponent!

Not only that, but it allows the Manticore to switch from cover-fire duty to assassination run at a moments notice, catapulting across the table to smash an enemy's face in.

And don't forget you can Marshal two jacks to a unit. Manticore missles anyone?

[Old_one_ear]

Sorry, Newbie mistake
errata that:

POW 20 + 3D6 (charge is boosted)
POW 23 + 3D6 (focus from one arcanist)
POW 25 + 3D6 (+2 bonus from second arcanist)

[ReaVeD]

Manticore is mainly used for it's ability to deal with heavies. Marshalling it is a waste as it needs a lot of FOC to work as it's supossed to. If you do use her, it's better to keep Manti on the caster.

TBH i hardly play Manticore anymore. Most casters prefer Discordia or Phoenix as their first jack (well maybe exept Ossyan who probably wants Hypnos) and now that Vyre jacks are out i prefer Banshee or Daemon as the second heavy (i mean if i do take a second heavy, which is a big if in Ret, but with new SR2012 might just do that). The lack of reach is really a big deal for her.

[Kallas]

Now, I may be new to the Retribution, and Warmachine in general, but I believe there is one Manticore trick yet to be mentioned: and that is the awesome combination of the Sentinals Drive-Pronto and a Combo-strike charge. Remember, special attacks counted under the weapon's abilities do not count as power attacks and can be used on the charge (see thread "Combostrike on a charge?" for details).

This affectively give the manticore a 15" charge with POW 20 + 3D6 (4D6 if the arcanist boosts it with a focus, and POW 23 + 4D6 if given focus from a second arcanist). Now, granted this is only at Mat 6, so you'll probably want to knock the target down with battlemages or a banshee first, but holy hell thats a hefty punch to pop on an unsuspecting opponent!

Welcome to the Retribution, and glad you're finding useful information!

There are a couple of holes in your logic, a few rules inconsistencies and a little newbie-naivety. Don't take that as a bad thing, especially if you're still learning, as it's easy to miss things.

The 15" charge is nice, and certainly a fantastic draw for the Sentinels. You've already covered your number of dice inconsistencies, so I won't belabour that point.

The biggest thing about this is that the Combo Strike is decidedly less effective than the two initial attacks would be. The Manticore, with help from one Arcanist, can make three P+S 18 attacks (two initial plus an additional attack from jack marshal) or one boosted damage P+S 23 attack.

The big thing to remember with this is that with three attacks, you've got a much broader range of damage against a target.

Imagine the Manticore here against an Ironclad, so DEF 12/ARM 18:
Combo Strike;
- 72.2% chance of hitting, so likely, but a significant chance to miss
- Dice+5 damage, so a range of 8-23, likely around 14-17

Multiple swings;
- each of the three swings has the same chance to hit, which reduces the likelihood of your full resources being spent on a failed die roll. It's still possible to miss with all three, but you're unlikely to
- each has straight damage, so is looking at a range of 2-18, and your general range is 6-8. Assuming two hit (which is to be expected) then you're looking at around 12-16 damage, with a range of 4-36; significantly greater potential. If all three hit, a distinct possibility and not hard to achieve, then your likely damage and range are 18-24 and 6-54.

Best case scenario for the Combo is a crippled but alive enemy Ironclad. Best case for the multiple swings is a dead Ironclad and a damaged something else, possibly a second heavy!

Combo Strike has a great use; sometimes you can only get one hit (Menite Revenger pushing you away, for example) or sometimes you need to maximise your one hit damage (like against a closed Devastator) but it is definitely not the first thing you should go to for outright damage.

Finally, the charge that you spoke of is a little thing that can sucker you in; it sounds like you're getting a sweet deal - 1 focus for extra speed and boosted damage? Great! But wait, think it through. What are the restrictions?

When you charge, you do so in a straight line (so no weaving between things, like enemy models whose free strikes you might otherwise dodge), you stop at linear obstacles where walking would not and you must turn to face the model directly at the end of the movement. And the kicker? That point of focus you spent to boost your first damage roll must go there - if you miss your first attack, that damage boost is lost.

Certainly, when you aren't sure you can reach the enemy the charge is useful, but if you can walk to the enemy, you will be able to use that focus point much more effectively by ensuring that you have hit before boosting or, better generally, buying another attack.

Hope you get a bit more insight into how to utilitise the Manticore more effectively.

[serrasin]

Manticore is mainly used for it's ability to deal with heavies. Marshalling it is a waste as it needs a lot of FOC to work as it's supossed to. If you do use her, it's better to keep Manti on the caster.

TBH i hardly play Manticore anymore. Most casters prefer Discordia or Phoenix as their first jack (well maybe exept Ossyan who probably wants Hypnos) and now that Vyre jacks are out i prefer Banshee or Daemon as the second heavy (i mean if i do take a second heavy, which is a big if in Ret, but with new SR2012 might just do that). The lack of reach is really a big deal for her.

Been getting great use of the Manticore with Ossyan personally, but yes, Discordia and Phoenix are tough to compete against.

[Pinegulf]

I'd like to add one thought to the covering fire: It's hard counter against kayazy assassins. Once your caster/or anyone else important has activated you can drop the fire on top of them and make them immune to them. Sure they can attack something else, but no caster kill this round.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

When would people use a Focus to gain +3 P&S, and when would they just buy another attack?

[Pinegulf]

Throws Or trample.

[bakaryu]

As a general rule of thumb, if you are dice minus 3 of less, you are better off buying an extra attack instead of boosting up your strength.
Similarly as Pinegulf said, if you are going for any kind of power attack where STR can be important (throws, tramples or weapon/head locks) then it will usually be worth it.

[absent]

1 focus and 4 hitting attacks gives you +12 damage, so you actually need to be Dice + 5 before the str is a bad idea, or missing a lot or something. So you should just be doing it against another heavy.

[The Golden Arrow]

That is so not true. If you are full on focus and want to inflict as much dmg as possible always boost strength. If you only have one focus it's better to combo strike and boost obviously. Its basically never better to buy an extra attack, except when fighting soft targets (inf), but there might be some specific scenario.

[bakaryu]

Five attacks (assuming non charge, all hit, arcanist buff and vs ARM19) comes out at 25 damage.
Four attacks (assuming all of above plus the STR boost) comes out at 32 damage.
Four attacks (assuming combo strike plus arcanist buff and vs ARM19) comes out at 25 damage
Three attacks (assuming above but with STR buff) comes out at 29 damage.

[Kallas]

Buffing strength vs low DEF/high ARM.
Boosting to hit vs high DEF/low ARM. Probably still boost up strength anyway...