Rhyas: Terminus Syndrome?

[CorporateSellout]

In the games I've PT'ed the latest Rhyas, I've found her to seem somewhat one-dimensional. Generally speaking, her single dimension mimics the MKI Terminus to the detriment (IMO) of her fun-ness. Particularly, my strategy has been to hide her amid a crowd of friendly troops making sure to shore up the line so it will hold against an opponent bold enough to try to assassinate her early (Rhyas uses occultation on herself and rapports a beast that will serve as a speedbump against big enemies). When the battle is joined, the strategy quickly shifts to Rhyas rushing though both armies right at the caster and chopping its head off. The end (although I see how warlocks can hold their own a lot better by being able to transfer and then assassination fails). Similarly, if she fails to roll well enough to make the assassination work, her strategy has required too much bravery and leaves her doomed where she stands (in the midst of the opponent's army). Rather than having Rhyas depend on the single killing blow, I'd rather see her have tools to destroy various targets so Rhyas players can utilize more strategies than just waiting for that moment that the enemy's caster enters 10".

I've seen significant discussion trying to increase Rhyas' warcaster killing power, but I pose the question: Will that really make Rhyas more enjoyable?

Please note, this discussion is expected to discuss Rhyas strategy and competitiveness as she is. I'd like to refrain from "Here's how to fix Rhyas" discussion... There are other places for that.

[Hjelmen0]

Dunno... a MAT 8 Carnivean or Swordsmen + UA with Occultation and/or Dash provide a pretty well-supported attack-vector, that I find quite flexible.

Rhyas is very competent herself, but she does support well to let other parts of the army do a lot of killing and assassination.

[blitzmonkey]

I for one cycle Occulation. I use it on the swordsmen to get them up the battlefield, then use it on her when she has to come out and play. Seems to work out pretty well.

[CorporateSellout]

Am I missing something with occultation? It's just stealth; how does it serve to help the aggressive maneuvers of her (usually) melee heavy force? With dash my troops are usually too close to the opponents to benefit much from stealth, not to mention that a unit with stealth doesn't block LOS to the non-stealth Rhyas behind/amidst them. I'm not a big fan of occultation myself, although I do admit it has its use: protecting Rhyas from getting shot before she charges across everyone.

[Hjelmen0]

Stealth helps one of our, if not the, hardest hitting melee units, Swordsmen, to get over the battlefield before they get shot to bits. Stealth is still a very valuable defensive mechanic, especially when you're able to spread out a bit more to provide better protection against AoE's (at least that's how it works out in my meta, so your mileage may vary). It's also very useful on Warmongers, or even Legionnaires, for some highly armoured stealthy models.

I'd put Occultation on the Swordsmen, and then cycle it onto Rhyas is she needs a turn of stealth before going in herself. Dash supports the Swordsmen well too, but it works out well for almost anything.

I'd run her with 10 Swordsmen + UA and (at least) 5 Incubi. You can easily include some Legionnaires to screen Rhyas as well.

[Angelust]

Occultation helps get your swordsmen in advantageous positions before they dash in and get multiple weapon-master swings on Rhyas' feat turn. In the multiple games I've play-tested her in, not once has she had an assassination run. 10-12" threat can be pretty easy to avoid, or simply block off with other units.

She's been great at boosting her melee troops to do amazing things however. Swordsmasters with cleave and 2 attacks can make a wreck of shield-walls and bunches of infantry, while Warmongers jumping around from Tide of BLood can really get into great berserk positions. MAT8 creatures can use their fury to boost damage, and Rhyas is a constant threat to enemy beasts that wander too close.

I think Occultation and Dash are the perfect boosts for her army, and her current problem is that it's pretty much all she's good for right now. If you're using her infantry as a meat-capsule to deliver her into melee range, than I think you're wasting some of her greatest current abilities. +1 SP, ignore FS, extra attack, and 1-2" placement effect can pretty much clear an enemy army on a feat turn if the swordsmen/incubi/mongers/etc have gotten up there unmolested.

At least that's my experience so far.

[Dance_Of_Death]

Occultation: It depends on the meta of your group/LGS. There are play groups that love shooting. Cygnar and legion aside, for many lists its difficult to circumvent stealth, and even for legion, where infantry shooting units are not able to get around stealth unless they advance to you.

But, some of your spacing questions are based on how your using her. I rarely put her behind a wall like anymore. She with a couple beasts are able to hold a flank by themselves. If I keep her more centralized I like using the spell with raptors that are able to move shoot and move back outside of 5" but close enough to charge on the next turn. Raek's animus works wonderfully in a case like this as you move around a forest. Preventing swordsman/other infantry from getting sniped as they advance into charge positions. Also another solid use of Occultation is when your setting up a bait charge, you don't want to just get shot to pieces by the opposing force.

As far as Rhyas goes, she's always been about Melee with a pinch of Mind Ripper on the side. Its always been like 90% melee combat focused (feat included) ~ 10% anything else. Unlike Terminus who is able to kill just about anything by himself, Rhyas has a hard enough time versus light jacks and

[Ger]

10-12" threat can be pretty easy to avoid, or simply block off with other units.

With acrobatics I'm surprised your having enemy units blocking charge lanes. Especially as the place effect of her feat could let her trade off the charge die for positioning.


With Sprint and Spd 7 are people finding they have Rhyas murder something that may have blundered in range and then escape?

[possiblyarowbot]

With speed 7, acrobatics and Raek's animus, I find she gets easier charge lanes when target models blunder too close to her.

[CorporateSellout]

So, we know it's possible to play her without going straight for the assassination, but I've been getting a suspicion that warcasters are so easily succeptible to Rhyas's charge that going for the kill is an easy-button win for her against WM.

Imagine you were playing your WM faction (or the one of your choice) and your opponent was a Rhyas player intent to go straight for your warcaster's throat. What could/would you do to stop Rhyas' direct approach from killing you out of nowhere?

[Neutralyze]

slam something over her and kill her, camp focus. .::shrugs::

[possiblyarowbot]

Cast admonition? Polarity Shield?

[CorporateSellout]

Alright, put simply, with Rhyas being a small base it's much more difficult to block the space for a charge than it was to block Terminus' approach. That said, there is a risk that Rhyas will be a warlock who typically just ignores the game and guns for your warcaster with only the dice deciding the winner. This would not be ideal for such a beloved character of the Legion's forces and though I love Rhyas' latest design; I have to admit to this likely becoming a problem.
I don't know what would be required to make sure that powergaming fun-killers don't throw sportsmanship under a bus and take advantage of Rhyas' assassination skills just to repeatedly win. I know it's not a guaranteed win, but her level of access is extremely difficult if not impossible (judging by the blank stares in this thread) to counter.

Thoughts?

[Jorek]

Drop her screen into a foxhole, shoot her to death with Siege/Twin Defenders. And doing from the very moment she enters 19" around Siege until she´s out of fury, beasts or both.

[Angelust]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm actually finding it kind of difficult to put Rhyas into kill position on casters. If you surround your caster by a light screen, even of some really light infantry like risen, Rhyas can't simply tide of blood onto the caster. You box a risen, and there's no way to place her in base to base with the boxed model to get into melee with the caster, because you can't place her on top of another model. You could do it if you were able to kill a model before her feat charge, but it's still difficult. If the opponent is using a beast or warjack to hedge himself in, than she's really out of luck.

10" charge range is okay combined with acrobatics, 12" with slipstream, but any opponent that knows what Rhyas can do can either hang back, or protect himself with meat shields if he's in the thick of things.

[Dance_Of_Death]

Alright, put simply, with Rhyas being a small base it's much more difficult to block the space for a charge than it was to block Terminus' approach. That said, there is a risk that Rhyas will be a warlock who typically just ignores the game and guns for your warcaster with only the dice deciding the winner. This would not be ideal for such a beloved character of the Legion's forces and though I love Rhyas' latest design; I have to admit to this likely becoming a problem.
I don't know what would be required to make sure that powergaming fun-killers don't throw sportsmanship under a bus and take advantage of Rhyas' assassination skills just to repeatedly win. I know it's not a guaranteed win, but her level of access is extremely difficult if not impossible (judging by the blank stares in this thread) to counter.

Thoughts?

If the enemy caster goes into terrain, Rhyas isn't going for the caster... she doesn't have pathfinder or any means of an ability like it and even when she had Death Shadow it ended her activation.

More over in boards without rough terrain, many faction/horde builds have some infantry. If I saw Rhyas on the other side, I'd set a protective screen around me. She doesn't have reach, the feat still requires the space to fit so, your opponent in many games would literally have to allow you an assassination run of the type you are worried about.

Against WM, if your worried about her coming for a charge, camp some focus, spells that minimize either her movement or damage dealing potential, and of course, you could also set your own defensive screens

As she is, Rhyas can pack a serious punch. But the caster assassination run, is much more difficult for her to actualize without your opponent providing that situation. Its much less of a concern then I think you reading into.

[Angelust]

I am personally okay with Rhyas being a heavy beast/jack killing ninja, and allowing her army to win through ninja-like attrition. I'm just not sure there's any way to translate ninja-like assassinations without it being unfun or overpowered. I think she's currently pretty good as is, though she could use something to help her when playing against Warmachine, such as arcane assassin.