Assault and Battery + Aiming

[Cardboard]

Okay, search turns up nothing, so I figured I'd make this question here.

Now, you can sac your movement/action at any time in the turn. So I sac movement to aim at the beginning, then give the A&B order. Can the guy who sacced movement shoot with the aiming bonus, even though he's not going to be able to charge/run? There's nothing in A&B that seems like it would prevent aiming; you don't have a movement phase to run/charge in, but it was a gray enough area that I thought it wise to rules forum it.

[admanb]

I believe Orders have to be given at the beginning of a unit's activation, well before you would choose which to sac. Check the timing section in the Appendix.

[Cardboard]

Issue is that we know you can sac stuff before orders, as you can sac to stand up before giving orders, as per the infernals

[TheUnknownMercenary]

Issue is that we know you can sac stuff before orders, as you can sac to stand up before giving orders, as per the infernals

The reason is that orders and standing up happen at the beginning of the unit's activation. It was ruled that you can stand up and then make an order because if it was the other way around, order then stand up, the unit cannot give/receive an order because it would be knocked down at the time it would have to give the order and a knocked down model cannot give orders.

That is the only time you can "sac stuff" before orders. At any other time the order is the first thing you have to do with the unit.

[Mr_Smigs]

really, the stand up thing is very clearly laid out in the timing section.

3. Resolve all required forfeiture...

aiming is not required.

[Cardboard]

really, the stand up thing is very clearly laid out in the timing section.


aiming is not required.

Stand up isn't required either

[Mr_Smigs]

which makes standing a unique case which was ruled on,
you cannot apply it to aiming.

[Cardboard]

which makes standing a unique case which was ruled on,
you cannot apply it to aiming.

What makes it so you cannot sac during step 2 but can during step 5? Seriously, saccing is an anytime ability, and as as ruled on here
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nockdown+order
You can do anytime things before orders.

[Mr_Smigs]

What makes it so you cannot sac during step 2 but can during step 5? Seriously, saccing is an anytime ability, and as as ruled on here
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nockdown+order
You can do anytime things before orders.

your assumption that "forfeiting is an anytime ability" is incorrect.
according to
pg 65

"anytime before it moves"
however, same page, as soon as it forfeits, it resolves end of movement effects
putting the model in timing step 6 or 8
well after the "give orders" phase normally.

again, a special ruling for standing up.

[Cardboard]

your assumption that "forfeiting is an anytime ability" is incorrect.
according to
pg 65

"anytime before it moves"
however, same page, as soon as it forfeits, it resolves end of movement effects
putting the model in timing step 6 or 8
well after the "give orders" phase normally.

again, a special ruling for standing up.

You're making a logical leap there; the phase is "anytime before it moves." Thus, you can forfeit pre-orders. The wording for resolving end of movement effects is a clear cut case of special rules changing the order, or else it wouldn't even be there. Also, do you have the link to the ruling on saccing to stand where it says "this only applies to saccing to stand up, and no other sorts of saccing at all?"

[whats82]

Hmm.. not convinced of either way.

1. Both saccing movement to stand up and aim are anytime ability.
2. Both are optional and not required.
3. Saccing movement to stand up(or other anytime abilities like fell calls) was ruled to be allowable prior to given order step. (and not skip to end of movement effect)

How does one not extrapolate from (3) that saccing movement to aim prior to order giving step is allowed ?

[Mr_Smigs]

sadly, no, don't have the link (i don't recall ever seeing it, i'm using the comments made in this thread)


secondly, where in the forfeiting rules does it say you CAN give orders after forfeiting movement?

it clearly states you are in the "end movement" phase, but nowhere days you then rewind to the "give orders" phase.

[Cardboard]

sadly, no, don't have the link (i don't recall ever seeing it, i'm using the comments made in this thread)


secondly, where in the forfeiting rules does it say you CAN give orders after forfeiting movement?

it clearly states you are in the "end movement" phase, but nowhere days you then rewind to the "give orders" phase.

It does not state you are in the end movement phase. It says you then resolve effects related to ended your movement, which very clearly does not say "this is considered to be your movement phase."
Your argument that the knockdown ruling cannot be applied to this situation, which may or may not be warranted. We'd need to check and see what the infernal ruling actually was. Regardless, the infernal ruling that I linked (http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nockdown+order) sets a precedent that at the very least suggests that you can aim while issuing the A&B order.

Let's review why you can forfeit pre-orders step.
1. Forfeiting for whatever reason is an anytime ability you can do before your movement phase (pg. 65)
2. You can do anytime abilities before your order phase (see link posted earlier)
3. Thus, you can forfeit movement to aim before orders.

Okay, and now looking at your argument of when it happens. If you could only forfeit in stage 5 (the pre movement stage) as you seem to think, then saccing would not be an anytime ability. The "resolve end of movement stuff here" is clearly put in the rules to break the normal order, or else there would be zero reason to include it at all.

Really, I see no reason you cannot aim when doing it; it just felt like such an odd way of doing things that I wasn't sure if it was intended and thus felt that it needed to be Rules Forumed

[drugar101]

forfeiting movement is very clearly not an anytime ability. You can't forfeit movement after moving. so trying to use rules for 'anytime' abilities for arguing that you can forfeit movement before you give an order isn't entirely accurate.

[sepher32]

removed for reading comprehension fail, carry on

[Mr_Smigs]

Okay, and now looking at your argument of when it happens. If you could only forfeit in stage 5 (the pre movement stage) as you seem to think, then saccing would not be an anytime ability.

don't put words in my mouth.

i didn't say it was limited to one phase,

i said it moves the model past the movement phase and thus if you forfeit before the orders phase, then giving orders is not possible for the model.

i agree, it needs its own ruling,
as your link points out,
anytime abilities set a standard,

but so do other abilities (like countercharge)

[Cardboard]

So if you cannot receive the A&B order, you end up acting the exact same as if you had received it but couldn't move; you shoot and then stand still. Okay, so it's really just why that happens which we're disagreeing on. So I guess basically we just need to wait for an Infernal ruling on it then to see why.

[drugar101]

i said it moves the model past the movement phase and thus if you forfeit before the orders phase, then giving orders is not possible for the model.

That can't be entirely true because we know a knocked down leader can forfeit movement or action and still give orders.

"standing up" is not an anytime ability. its something that can be done anytime before the model moves.

Orders have to be given at the beginning of the activation right after any required forfeits. If models start to voluntarily forfeit movement, you have moved passed the beginning of activation and no longer can give any orders.

The activation time sequence on page 244 prime means you can't voluntarily forfeit movement until step 5.

[Mr_Smigs]

That can't be entirely true because we know a knocked down leader can forfeit movement or action and still give orders.

we do? there was comment about this before, but no link. proof?

"standing up" is not an anytime ability. its something that can be done anytime before the model moves.

Orders have to be given at the beginning of the activation right after any required forfeits. If models start to voluntarily forfeit movement, you have moved passed the beginning of activation and no longer can give any orders.

The activation time sequence on page 244 prime means you can't voluntarily forfeit movement until step 5.

incorrect. the forfeiting rules clearly state you can forfeit movement at any time before movement, you just immediately go to resolving end of movement triggers.

[drugar101]

we do? there was comment about this before, but no link. proof?

Here is your link...:
http://www.privateerpressforums.com/...7785#post67785

incorrect. the forfeiting rules clearly state you can forfeit movement at any time before movement, you just immediately go to resolving end of movement triggers.

You can't ignore the rule that the orders are at the beginning of the activation. In fact the book gives us a nice little sequence of chart with the details on how to fully handle things during a units activation.

When reading my link you'll see how the infernal originally said you can't give orders if knockdown since orders have to be issued at the beginning of the activation. However it was ruled that knockdown forfeitures was a beginning of activation required forfeiture so the active player gets to choose to forfeit before or after the order.

Optional forfeits for aiming etc are not required. Thus they can't be done before orders.

[Cardboard]

Here is your link...:
http://www.privateerpressforums.com/...7785#post67785



You can't ignore the rule that the orders are at the beginning of the activation. In fact the book gives us a nice little sequence of chart with the details on how to fully handle things during a units activation.

When reading my link you'll see how the infernal originally said you can't give orders if knockdown since orders have to be issued at the beginning of the activation. However it was ruled that knockdown forfeitures was a beginning of activation required forfeiture so the active player gets to choose to forfeit before or after the order.

Optional forfeits for aiming etc are not required. Thus they can't be done before orders.

No, you do NOT have to give orders during a turn, hence it is not required forfeiture. In addition, we've already gone through why you can sac to aim pre-orders, just by quoting the rules drugar and using the activation chart to show exactly when you can sac. The "beginning of activation" he's referring to is composed of multiple steps, as is shown in Appendix A, and saccing can be done at any of these steps due to the link I posted above.

I think this is pretty well clarified; you can sac to aim, but you cannot advance during the A&B movement, which is how I thought it worked. Unless an Infernal wants to communicate on this matter, we can consider the matter closed.

[drugar101]

No, you do NOT have to give orders during a turn, hence it is not required forfeiture. In addition, we've already gone through why you can sac to aim pre-orders, just by quoting the rules drugar and using the activation chart to show exactly when you can sac. The "beginning of activation" he's referring to is composed of multiple steps, as is shown in Appendix A, and saccing can be done at any of these steps due to the link I posted above.

I wasn't trying to say a unit had to give orders. in any case that has nothing to do with this discussion. we are talking about trying to get an aiming bonus with the orders Assault and Battery.

If you are using the link for anytime abilities, that has no relevance to this discussion. Any time abilities are special abilities that a model can do given special rules on the card. "standing up" is not an ability never the less an anytime ability, its a player defined term. You are making a apple and oranges leap. There is only a 'knockdown effect' and the concept of 'forfeiting'. The game concept of 'forfeiting' happens to be something required to get ride of the 'knockdown effect'.

I think this is pretty well clarified; you can sac to aim, but you cannot advance during the A&B movement, which is how I thought it worked. Unless an Infernal wants to communicate on this matter, we can consider the matter closed.

Well this issue crystal clear to me too yet I come to a different conclusion. You can't forfeit for aiming bonus before giving the order.

Once the A&B Order is issued. maybe you can or maybe you can't forfeit movement for aiming bonus. But my gut says no, because you have to follow the order.

However maybe you can still forfeit movement for aiming bonus and 'claim' the model is going to 'charge' and you simply follow the rules for charge when you can't charge. But that seems to be breaking the spirit of the order however perfectly legal it may or may not be, i don't have anything to add on that aspect of this issue.

[Cardboard]

I wasn't trying to say a unit had to give orders. in any case that has nothing to do with this discussion. we are talking about trying to get an aiming bonus with the orders Assault and Battery.

If you are using the link for anytime abilities, that has no relevance to this discussion. Any time abilities are special abilities that a model can do given special rules on the card. "standing up" is not an ability never the less an anytime ability, its a player defined term. You are making a apple and oranges leap. There is only a 'knockdown effect' and the concept of 'forfeiting'. The game concept of 'forfeiting' happens to be something required to get ride of the 'knockdown effect'.



Well this issue crystal clear to me too yet I come to a different conclusion. You can't forfeit for aiming bonus before giving the order.

Once the A&B Order is issued. maybe you can or maybe you can't forfeit movement for aiming bonus. But my gut says no, because you have to follow the order.

However maybe you can still forfeit movement for aiming bonus and 'claim' the model is going to 'charge' and you simply follow the rules for charge when you can't charge. But that seems to be breaking the spirit of the order however perfectly legal it may or may not be, i don't have anything to add on that aspect of this issue.

Please look at the step by step and syllogism I put up earlier. We know that saccing is an anytime ability, as it says so in the rules. We know that anytime abilities can come before orders, as shown in the link. You've brought no evidence that contradicts what is plainly stated in the rules on these matters. In addition, your argument falls back on the "spirit of the rules," a concept that WM is built around avoiding. If it's legal, you can do it. For this to be illegal, you'd need to change the rules.

[drugar101]

Please look at the step by step and syllogism I put up earlier. We know that saccing is an anytime ability, as it says so in the rules. We know that anytime abilities can come before orders, as shown in the link. You've brought no evidence that contradicts what is plainly stated in the rules on these matters. In addition, your argument falls back on the "spirit of the rules," a concept that WM is built around avoiding. If it's legal, you can do it. For this to be illegal, you'd need to change the rules.

syllogism != rules. You even stated yourself that link is nothing more than

very least suggests that you can aim

Forfeiting movement is something that can be done anytime before you move. Not an "At Any Time During This Model’s Activation" ability. The only reason you can sac movement before orders is there the rules say

A knocked down model can stand up at the start of its next activation

which happens to be at the same time that orders are issued. so the active player gets to choose the order of that resolution.

The order says you must do one of 2 different movements. Willing forfeiting movement is clearly going against what the order says you must do.

But I am going to end with this and say nothing more. I frankly hope you are correct. If so my winter guard can start forfeiting movement for aiming bonus and use bob and weave at the same time. But the last time I tried to ask that question they came out of the wood works to shoot that idea down. An infernal never came in to say you could forfeit movement willingly before the order that required a movement be performed.

Here is the bob and weave thread if you care:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...t=aiming+weave

[TheUnknownMercenary]

Orders are giving when the unit activates, which is before you activate any models in the unit. A model can only forfeit movement or action during it's activation. So it goes unit activates and then you activate individual models in the unit.

[Cardboard]

To answer your questions: drugar, you're referring to the wrong link; the KD link means nothing, but the one that I've posted twice about being able to do anytime abilities pre-orders very much applies. Unknown, that also applies here. Absolutely nothing says that you can only forfeit during your activation after orders or that models may only do anytime abilities during their part of the unit's activation; if so, then Boomhowler could not use his Fell Call to stand up without saccing anything and still give orders. For all intents and purposes, "anytime before you move" and "anytime during your activation" are the same thing, with the key word anytime. Aiming simply has the caveat that once you've moved, you no longer have a movement to sac. In effect, we could rename those into "anytime before you move" and "anytime before you end your activation."

As it is, the precedent shows the aiming side to be correct. I'm sorry you got jumped on drugar, but with no infernal warning, we can pretty safely ignore that topic when it comes to precedent.

[Mr_Smigs]

the problem here is they keep using "start of the activation" when the timing chart clearly shows orders are NOT at the start of the activation,
that there are notable resolutions before the order step.


the big questions here are:

1. Does forfeiting movement before Orders move you to after orders on the timing chart?
2. Does the "yes you can stand before orders" ruling apply to all forfeitures?
3. If an order would normally deny the model a forfeit option, is it legal to make the forfeit BEFORE the order, then give the order (entirely dependant on rulings for 1 & 2 )

[drugar101]

the problem here is they keep using "start of the activation" when the timing chart clearly shows orders are NOT at the start of the activation,
that there are notable resolutions before the order step.

yes it is. step 1 is before activation steps 2-4 are all at the start of the activation. but since you can't actually do different 'start of the activations' simultaneously they give us an order to do them

1. Does forfeiting movement before Orders move you to after orders on the timing chart?

This is clearly not the case, the infernal stated that a knocked down leader could forfeit something to stand up then give the order.
As i linked here: http://www.privateerpressforums.com/...7785#post67785

questions 2 and 3, i have said all I have to say on that.

[Macallan]

Orders should definitely come at the beginning of the unit's activation. You cannot Aim and also Bob and Weave.

[drugar101]

Thanks for your clarification. I trust getting the aiming bonus before any order is given is just as clearly not legal.

That leaves us with trying to get the aiming bonus after receiving the Assault and Battery order. The models 'must' do what the order states. Seems likely they clearly can only charge or run. in other words no aiming bonus for assault and battery.

[Cardboard]

Macallan, does that mean that we're saying that forfeiting is not as shown on pg65, an anytime ability? Or that you simply do not receive the defensive bonus, so you could fully well do it with either order, you just wouldn't be able to charge/run/advance with Assault and Battery?

[Mr_Smigs]

yes it is. step 1 is before activation steps 2-4 are all at the start of the activation. but since you can't actually do different 'start of the activations' simultaneously they give us an order to do them


This is clearly not the case, the infernal stated that a knocked down leader could forfeit something to stand up then give the order.
As i linked here: http://www.privateerpressforums.com/...7785#post67785

questions 2 and 3, i have said all I have to say on that.

again. a specific case. the general ruling (above)

Macallan's ruling seems to be in the favor or "it moves your model's ativation to the post-movement phase"

[wulfwyn]

Macallan, does that mean that we're saying that forfeiting is not as shown on pg65, an anytime ability? Or that you simply do not receive the defensive bonus, so you could fully well do it with either order, you just wouldn't be able to charge/run/advance with Assault and Battery?

I think that you are confusing some things...pg 65, under forfeiting does state that "A model can forfeit it's movement anytime before it moves." When you look at pg 244 (thanks drugar101) though, under Activation timing, you have step 5. which states: "Resolve effects that occur before moving." Step 5 seems, at least to me, to imply that forfeiting movement would happen at step 5. Since step 5 happens after step 4, which is the step where you declare orders, it seems impossible to me to get an aiming bonus and a & b (unless if models in the unit are out of formation, in which case I believe they don't receive the order and can sit and aim).

Macallan's response (at least to me) seems to clarify this point.

[Cardboard]

I think that you are confusing some things...pg 65, under forfeiting does state that "A model can forfeit it's movement anytime before it moves." When you look at pg 244 (thanks drugar101) though, under Activation timing, you have step 5. which states: "Resolve effects that occur before moving." Step 5 seems, at least to me, to imply that forfeiting movement would happen at step 5. Since step 5 happens after step 4, which is the step where you declare orders, it seems impossible to me to get an aiming bonus and a & b (unless if models in the unit are out of formation, in which case I believe they don't receive the order and can sit and aim).

Macallan's response (at least to me) seems to clarify this point.

Not really; anytime before aiming doesn't mean that step; it means that step or before (hence anytime before moving rather than immediately before you move). Key wording difference. Also, I don't get if Macallan means that you don't get the bonus, or that you cannot aim in a turn you bob and weave.

[Crate123]

I understand it so that you cannot Aim and Bob & Weave since non-required / optional forfeiture happens after orders.

[wulfwyn]

Not really; anytime before aiming doesn't mean that step; it means that step or before (hence anytime before moving rather than immediately before you move). Key wording difference. Also, I don't get if Macallan means that you don't get the bonus, or that you cannot aim in a turn you bob and weave.

If you can't aim and bob and weave (which is an order btw), then I'm pretty sure that you can't aim and assault and battery (another order if I'm not mistaken). It makes sense to me that both situations are pretty much the same as far as orders and aiming go...

[Cardboard]

If you can't aim and bob and weave (which is an order btw), then I'm pretty sure that you can't aim and assault and battery (another order if I'm not mistaken). It makes sense to me that both situations are pretty much the same as far as orders and aiming go...

Which goes nowhere toward answering the question. The question is now whether the ruling is to the bonus or to the idea that you cannot aim at all in a turn in which you plan to bob and weave. Maudlin's previous ruling is out of date, as Prime mk2 does not make issuing orders a mandatory step; it's a "may." Thus we know that forfeitures may be done pre-orders; if we say that a model may not aim before orders, then we are errataing what's in the book right now, and Macallan's statement right there doesn't say whether we're talking about not being able to bob and weave as in follow the order (so you get to aim, just no +2def, so bob and weave can be given on a turn models sac movement to stand and they can still shoot) along with Assault and Battery (you get to shoot, but you may not move), or that we lock forfeitures into Step 5 and after, thus making it so you can not give an order if the leader was knocked down, as standing to give an order is not mandatory now.

[drugar101]

Which goes nowhere toward answering the question. The question is now whether the ruling is to the bonus or to the idea that you cannot aim at all in a turn in which you plan to bob and weave. Maudlin's previous ruling is out of date, as Prime mk2 does not make issuing orders a mandatory step; it's a "may." Thus we know that forfeitures may be done pre-orders; if we say that a model may not aim before orders, then we are errataing what's in the book right now, and Macallan's statement right there doesn't say whether we're talking about not being able to bob and weave as in follow the order (so you get to aim, just no +2def, so bob and weave can be given on a turn models sac movement to stand and they can still shoot) along with Assault and Battery (you get to shoot, but you may not move), or that we lock forfeitures into Step 5 and after, thus making it so you can not give an order if the leader was knocked down, as standing to give an order is not mandatory now.

Knockdown model can't give an order. Knockdown requires that you forfeit movement or action at the START of the models activation. Thats why it gets to be resolved at the same time as orders.

The infernal just stated rather clearly that orders come before you have the option of getting the aiming bonus. Your assumption about forfeiting aiming bonus is the same as an 'anytime' ability must be wrong. I get that forfeiting movement rules use the words 'any time before movement' yet that choice is not an any time ability like you are trying to compare it to.


The idea that models can choose to get the +2 aiming bonus then receive the order but for some unexplainable reason don't follow the order makes no sense. There isn't a rule that even hints that an order is disregarded if for some reason some aspect of it is not going to be done. The models simply can't forfeit movement for the aiming bonus before orders are issued.

[Cardboard]

Knockdown model can't give an order. Knockdown requires that you forfeit movement or action at the START of the models activation. Thats why it gets to be resolved at the same time as orders.

The infernal just stated rather clearly that orders come before you have the option of getting the aiming bonus. Your assumption about forfeiting aiming bonus is the same as an 'anytime' ability must be wrong. I get that forfeiting movement rules use the words 'any time before movement' yet that choice is not an any time ability like you are trying to compare it to.


The idea that models can choose to get the +2 aiming bonus then receive the order but for some unexplainable reason don't follow the order makes no sense. There isn't a rule that even hints that an order is disregarded if for some reason some aspect of it is not going to be done. The models simply can't forfeit movement for the aiming bonus before orders are issued.

Ah, I see you on the knockdown point; eyes were slipping over the "start of" phrase. That said, it does mean that the wording on "anytime before" on forfeiting is simply wrong them; for it to be "anytime before" it must be able to be done pre-orders; it is not an assumption so much as incorrect wording in the book. For it to work this way, the wording should "when it would normally move" or wording to the like.

[Masanori]

also i'm pretty sure u can't double up forfeits so if u were KD u can't forfeit movement to both stand up AND gain aiming bonus.