Thoughts on Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper

[raptor1313]

Kaelyssa is the Retribution's toolbox anti-stealth warcaster with a side of denial. She's no front-liner, but if your enemy has tricks, you have a counter for them in her.

Stats, Weapons & Attacks
SPD 6 and Pathfinder are sufficient to keep up with most retribution units. She has a solid DEF 16, but ARM 14 and 16 health boxes do not a durable caster make. Her FOCUS 7 and spell list mean that she's got a solid enough control area, and that she doesn't belong on the front lines from a durability standpoint.

Her melee melee capability is so-so with MAT 6 and POW 12; it's enough to KO enemy troopers but this should be a holdout weapon. She's more at home with the Runebolt cannon, a RNG 12 POW 10 magical weapon with ROF 3 and MAT 7. It's not got a lot of punch, but you can always use it to KO annoying solos. Be ready to boost damage, though, if you want the solo to stay down with one shot.

Overall, she's quick enough to keep up and has a solid focus pool, but she's squishy and only slightly above-average in terms of hitting things with a gun.

Skills & Abilities
In addition to Pathfinder, she's got three neat abilities: True Sight, With Hound and Energy Siphon. Pathfinder at least lets you get Concealment with some ease.

True Sight means you can hit Stealth models. This works even when arcing, so you can snip annoying solos or lay down fire on units with stealth. You can also snipe solos with your rifle, if it comes to that. This is her major anti-stealth ability in person.

Witch Hound is neat, but situational. If someone hits Kaelyssa's battlegroup with a magic attack, someone in the battlegroup gets to make a full advance and an attack after the spell is resolved. It's a bit more fun when the enemy has plenty of magic attacks that they want to use on your jacks, though.

Energy Siphon lets you pull Focus or Fury off any target you hit with one of Kaelyssa's weapons. This lets you de-buff warcaster armor, and deny Warlocks transfers. If you are in melee, you can pull Fury off of models and keep hitting them, and/or boosting damage. Energy Siphon is potentially risky in melee (since you are not, y'know, that durable) but can be a solid source of debuffing.


Spells
This is where it gets fun: she's got something for everyone.

Arcantrik Bolt
POW 12 magical attack with RNG 10. IT's for sniping annoying solos/magical models via arc nodes. If it damages a warjack, then the warjack is rendered stationary. It can make the enemy pay Focus to shake the effect, which is somewhat useful.

More useful is the part where you hit the bloody thing without really trying, so it's a setup for offing a jack. DEF 5 is pretty much an auto-hit, so a boost on K's part can save your jacks focus, especially if you tag a high-DEF target.

Arcane Reckoning
If the enemy misses the model/unit holding this buff, then they are in turn hit with the attack. Higher-defense models love this, because the enemy can’t dump a magic AOE on them and game the deviation. It will force boosting, and it’s a deterrent for non-caster magic attacks.

Backlash
When the warjack suffering this effect takes damage, the caster takes a point of damage each time the jack gets hit. You probably won’t kill the caster with this but you can knock a chunk out of them. The trick to getting the most mileage is to paper-cut the jack to death. Just don’t expect a knockout punch with it at this point, unless the Retribution gets some units with Feedback on their weapons. Combine with Arcantrik Bolt and a Mage Hunter Strike Force to put some damage on the caster and screw up a warjack.

Banishing Ward
Banishing Ward renders a model/unit immune to being targeted by enemy spells/animi, and knocks off any enemy upkeeps on them. Bottom line, it can keep a unit from getting a nasty upkeep on it, or remove it after the fact. If you didn’t put it on something preemptively, then they get one turn to enjoy the debuff.

Phantom Hunter
Someone in the battlegroup ignores LOS when making attacks, and laughs at concealment and cover when shooting.. This can let Kaelyssa hit anything she can range. It also lets most of the jacks be a little more accurate; RAT 5 becomes a little more effective at hitting stuff but probably still wants boosts. It’s a neat upkeep for 2 focus, but somewhat situational.

Rift
This is her most expensive spell at 4 focus, but it’s a 4” AOE with POW 13. That’s not bad for thinning out troops with lower armor (and/or stealth), but the real bonus is that the AOE is difficult terrain for a round. IF you can make it hit, and the enemy doesn’t have pathfinder (or reach, dependong in speed/distance), then it’s wonderful denial.

Feat: The Vanishing
Friendly faction models in her control zone gain Stealth and cannot be charged for a round. This is purely a setup feat, and can potentially deny both ranged and shooting. Just make sure the enemy isn’t so close that they’ll simply walk up and smack you, and keep a look out for any ranged attacks that ignore stealth. Also, be ready for the feat's utility to vary based on matchups.

What to bring with her?
Warjacks
Kaelyssa wants heavy hitters. The Phoenix gets a mention because it’s an arc node and has a pretty reasonable damage output. You can get around MAT 6 by smacking the target with an Arcantrik bolt if it’s a jack.

The Manticore goes nicely with Rift, since Covering Fire + Rift = unhappy infantry plus slow jacks. It is also, of course, a great heavy hitter and you need that as well.

The Hydra can bank its focus and use Phantom Hunter to great effect with its Force Cannon; unless you’re stealth you can’t hide from a POW 15, RNG 15 gun with RAT 5 (potentially 7 with the aim) and a boost. It’s not really for hunting casters, but solos and UAs probably won’t do well with a boostable POW 15 hit.

Units
Typically, you’re bringing Kaelyssa because she doesn’t have as many problems with Stealth as other casters. Retribution has two ways around stealth: melee and AoEs. To this end, I suggest starting with Dawnguard Sentinels, and look elsewhere once you’ve filled them out and added the UA. This also means you don’t absolutely, positively HAVE to use your jacks for all the big game hunting.

The only unit-borne AoEs come from Stormfall Archers, and Kaelyssa doesn’t really buff those. However, an Arcantrik Bolt makes the Brutal Shot more likely to hit, which can help set up Jacks for explosive deconstruction.

MHSF don’t really have a way around stealth, but a minimal unit + UA are excellent support hunters, and can combo well with Arcantrik Bolt and Backlash against casters.

Solos
Eiryss is excellent support against Warmachine opponents. pEiryss is more of a caster-kill setup or sniper, as eEiryss + multiple arcantrik bolts = 2-3 stationary jacks a turn if they’re close by.

I suggest an arcanist per heavy jack, or the max of two. Early on, they let you run myrmidons into position without taxing her, and once she starts running them they buff the damage output or fix busted systems.

Beyond that, current solos tend to be support-hunters of one stripe or another, so flavor as needed.

Overall Thoughts
The word I use most in this writeup is ‘situational.’ Kaelyssa has something for most every situation, which is what makes her versatile. Her edge lies in denying the enemy neat tricks. She can deny movement, charges, shooting, stealth, and warjack usage, which is a pretty solid list.

[Bl00dw0lf]

Good writeup. Sorry nobody has yet to comment on it. The forums have been a bit sluggish of late. She is pretty much eveyone's "anti-stealth" caster for that "anti-stealth" list.

[ReaVeD]

I often use Kael as the second caster to my Rahn. She's a great anti-stealth and anti-magic caster (yes Denny I'm looking at you) and the energy siphon is just amazeing against hordes. She has a decent chance to pull an assassinations with her gun if opp caster is ARM ~14 or lower. Models I often play with her:

Sentinels - her feat lets me get the first hit and with these guys it likely that there's not going to be a second needed. Also i prefer them over MHSF because they tend to be underwhelming against the armies this list is going to battle (i mean stealth and hordes).

Hydra - Phantom Hunter and you threat range is 21'', great at takeing bits of larger things or hunting the caster.

Now Discordia is joining the team as a obv go to anti stealth model.

[raptor1313]

@Bl00dwolf
Thanks for the kind words.

THough, I'm curious, what in particular makes her anti-stealth? The only thing I see on her intrinsically is the True Sight, and it's not THAT uber on her.

@ReaVed
I'm not a fane of the Hydra on paper, but I think I"d be willing to give the thing a shot with Phantom hunter to menace a caster. Then again, the Hydra seems to fall in between the 'heavy hitter' category and the utility category, and it's still just one shot. Those three focus turn into an ok-ish shot, or more like a boost hit, boost damage (if it hits, which isn't that great, but at least Phantom Hunter cots out the potential terrain defense) and then repair field if applicable. I suppose the arcanist behind it can always punch it for another focus.

In general, though, I'm sold on Sentinels with her because she can set 'em up on the charge, and NEEDS some heavy hitters. My first outing or two with her suffered from a lack of that, and when there's more than one Khadoran jack, you kinda WANT the heavy hitters.

[Bl00dw0lf]

@Bl00dwolf
Thanks for the kind words.

THough, I'm curious, what in particular makes her anti-stealth? The only thing I see on her intrinsically is the True Sight, and it's not THAT uber on her.

.

She is our only caster who can SEE stealthed models. So, like you mentioned in your writeup, she can either SHOOT annoying solos like Lord Tartarus or ARC an offensive spell at other threats who have stealth.

All of our other models/units/casters have to hope for deviations with templates to nail those pesky models with stealth. Either that, or just hope to run in and kill the stealthed models before they kill you. This can be hard, though, if not impossible when playing a crafty opponent as most stealthed models have the annoying habit of being able to SHOOT US with some type of ranged attack. The modelscan just keep shooting our Sentinels (or whatever) and then backing up until all the Sentinels go bye bye.

Also, most good players won't run Tartar Sauce out in front. They usually screen him with Bane Thralls and pop him out ONLY when he can assure his player that he WILL KILL a few of our models and this get some MORE FREE BANE THRALLS.

Discordia is awesome and gives the other casters more versatility, but unfortunately we can't even USE Discordia officially until she is released to everyone later on this year.

So, for now, if we are facing a stealthy army or need to kill Tartar Sauce we need Kaelyssa.

[raptor1313]

Bl00dw0lf,
makes sense in that context.

Also, I might've discovered a reason to roll a Hydra with her, if it works the way I think it does (amazing what you think of in pointless staff meetings...)
Energy Siphon + ROF 3 gun + Jack that gets focus every time you hit = up to 3 free focus a turn for shooting a Hydra in the back.

Keep an Arcanist near the Hydra to fix it up if necessary, or shift its PS to a respectable 16 for punching stuff.

[Stachelbaer]

Bl00dw0lf,
makes sense in that context.

Also, I might've discovered a reason to roll a Hydra with her, if it works the way I think it does (amazing what you think of in pointless staff meetings...)
Energy Siphon + ROF 3 gun + Jack that gets focus every time you hit = up to 3 free focus a turn for shooting a Hydra in the back.

Keep an Arcanist near the Hydra to fix it up if necessary, or shift its PS to a respectable 16 for punching stuff.

Only problem here: a Hydra only gets Focus from enemy attacks.

[raptor1313]

Well, durn.

What I get for not having the cards in front of me, but I suspect stuff like that is EXACTLY why it's just enemy attacks. Otherwise the Hydra becomes a focus battery for her, provided you spend your shots on it.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Well, durn.

What I get for not having the cards in front of me, but I suspect stuff like that is EXACTLY why it's just enemy attacks. Otherwise the Hydra becomes a focus battery for her, provided you spend your shots on it.

No, it's because you can plink the Hydra with a full unit of Houseguard Riflemen. POW 10 hits won't do much damage, and with aiming and back strike you easily hit. At the end of that bombardment is a warjack with 14 focus who's RNG 26" POW 26 gun can hit anything on the table with impunity (Phantom Hunter). Hit DEF 17 on average rolls (because with 26" range and Phantom Hunter who needs to move) and one shot warcasters on a fairly regular basis.

There are very good reason's why the Hydra only gets focus from enemy attacks.

[raptor1313]

::shiver...just shiver::

Considering that would be the 'I win' button and all...

Anyway, that goes back to making me ponder the Hydra with her at all. I default to the Phoenix for an Arc Node that can hit things, though I wonder if a manticore/chimera wouldn't be a better start. Then again, the Chimera doesn't get a cookie for durability, so...thoughts on arc nodes?

[Turtle]

Give the Chimera some extra focus, even a single point to get its DEF up to 13 and you'll be amazed what it can survive. Keep it's generator up and it can dash away on the next turn ready to arc again.

The hydra is definitely useful. I don't use the Pheonix as much because even though it has a lot going for it, it's not a master of any of them. If you move it up to arc something, and maybe shoot, it's now a 10 cost model that the enemy will not hesitate to slaughter now that it's up front. Besides her feat, Kaelyssa has no other way to protect the pheonix.

The manticore, on the other hand, can slaughter single targets with P&S 20 fists with arcanist support. The Hydra, used less often, has Chain Attack Grab and Smash, which is one of my go to abilities for all sorts of things, especially to double handed throw heavies away from Kaelyssa since a common tactic against her is to run and engage her in melee. It's also focus efficient and pairs excellently with Kaelyssa's phantom hunter. I've killed many a model that thought itself safe with the hydra and phantom hunter. Just the threat of the Hydra with Kaelyssa does wonders for making the enemy avoid parts of the board.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

I like the Hydra with her. I do the standard Hydra + Phantom Hunter, but I rarely go after warcasters/warlocks. The gun on that warjack is for pegging whatever I want, where ever I want. Is that Gerlack across the field behind those blood gorgers? Dead. Vilmon moving up the flanks? Dead. Enemy officers with Granted things? Dead. Warcasters are often too high in DEF or ARM to blow your few big shots against. He makes a much better sniper. And when things get close, he has Grab and Smash, which works wonders for clearing charge lanes.

[NaZ]

I use a hydra and a phoenix with kalyssa every game. Being able to store focus really helps her out. and a Phantom hunter blast from 15" away is quite nasty. I agree with the statements here about pegging individual solos. Gives it a good thing to do before the assassination run. I also find it useful for tearing down warjacks (especially stationary ones)

Some other thoughts on Kalyssa.

I use her consistently as my "B" list, when I think rahn will be a bad matchup. I have been running her at tier 3, but the MHA's have been inconsistent. I cannot decide if its worth it to run them at tier 2 with 2 ghost snipers to assist eEiryss with her duties.

here is the list I'm playing

Kalyssa
Hydra
Phoenix
MHSF (6) w/ UA
MHSF (6) w/ UA (free due to tier 2)
eEiryss
Narn
2x mha for tier 3 or 2x ghost sniper at tier 2

she provides a surprising assassination opportunity. I have in several games been able to backlash an enemy warjack, hit it with an alcantric bolt, shoot it twice then unload with 2 full squads of MHSF against a stationary target. it is not that difficult to produce 12-15 points of damage on the enemy warcaster. follow up with a shot from the hydra to finish him off (perhaps next turn if you need to cast rather than upkeep phantom hunter) it becomes a difficult game of survival for the other player. I've had her get splattered before too, but she performs well against a variety of armies

NaZ

[Bl00dw0lf]

I'm with Naz.

Hydra AND Phoenix.

The Hydra for the Range+Power 15 shots through walls and the Phoenix to arc spells, Trogdor Burninate things, and generally be a bad mambajamba.

Remember in Pulp Fiction, when Samuel L. Jackson's character would recite fake scripture at foes before wrecking their faces? Well, that was really a Phoenix, but Tarentino couldn't get rights from Privateer Press so he ended up just using CGI and superimposing Samuel L over the Phoenix.

Another amazing and true story from Hollywood!

Here's my most likely "anti stealth" list I am taking for my upcoming 50 point tournament. Some serious swag is on the line (signed book, posters, etc), and I think this will be a good list against stealth based armies:


Army:
Type: Skirmish (1 caster, 50pts)
Points: 50
Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper (*7pts)
* Hydra (9pts)
* Phoenix (10pts)
* Phoenix (10pts)
Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts) (10pts)
* Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard (2pts)
* Soulless Escort (1pts)
Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
* Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard (2pts)
Arcanist (1pts)
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)

[serrasin]

If you are making an anti-stealth list then you want to minimize normal ranged attacks and maximized aoe and spray attacks, and melee. Discordia is an obvious choice for this, but Skarrath isn't bad either.

[Bl00dw0lf]

If you are making an anti-stealth list then you want to minimize normal ranged attacks and maximized aoe and spray attacks, and melee. Discordia is an obvious choice for this, but Skarrath isn't bad either.

Discordia isn't allowed as she hasn't been released yet and this is an "official" steamroller tournament.

I COULD sub a phoenix for the WORM (I have them already and am already a big fan). I like the 3 RET jacks, though, as they benefit from K's feat and her special ability that lets something in her BG whack an enemy out of turn if hit with magic.

For that matter I could drop the 'Vics and add in Dahlia and Skerath...and KEEP the second Phoenix...the Vics are a great unit, but having that many models could make my short timed turns scary...and by dropping them and adding a heavy warbeast....


Good Call. I think I will do that.

[PaintVagrant]

Have you ran her with 3 heavies before? I know all 3 are pretty focus efficient, but thats still a ton of points in heavy jacks. Does she need 2 arc nodes? combust is awesome, but for 10 points you can put a bunch of nasty solos or another unit in that list.

Ive got an upcoming game against my buddy's khador, and Im taking this, I think:

Points: 50
Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper (*7pts)
* Phoenix (10pts)
* Discordia (10pts)
Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
* Griffon (4pts)
* Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard (2pts)
* Soulless Escort (1pts)
House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
* Mage Hunter Commander (2pts)
Arcanist (1pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Mage Hunter Assassin (2pts)
Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)

[AJ the Ronin]

This is the Kaelyssa list I used on the last local 35 points SR tournament:

Kaelyssa
Hydra
Phoenix
Arcanist x 2
Full Sentinels with UA
Full MHSF with UA

How I used the list?

It depended on what my opponent fielded. If his caster was in the 14 to 16 DEF and ARM range I removed focus with Kaelyssa, try to do some damage with th MHSF and finish the game with the Hydra (I pull this off against eKreoss).

If my opponent had light 'jacks I would backlash one of them and try to damage the caster with the MHSF and when the caster was in range I would try to hit with the Hydra if I get the aiming bonus (I pull this off against eDenny and Amon).

The game I lost was against eKrueger. I lost mostly to bad decisions on my part since my list was a bad match up to the Circle list (his only unit were the Druids and I had the Sentinels with banishing ward and the MHSF with whiplash just in case).

For my play style this list had enough resources to adapt to different situations. I was fearing a stealth army yet I was ready to use the Hydra as a melee threat and all thing considered my army was fast enough and tough enough to go in melee against a stealthed army if necessary.

[Bl00dw0lf]

Just to make sure....



Kaelyssahas True Sight, so she can see stealth.

If she uses an arc node to shoot an offensive spell at a model with stealth, it hits, right?

The arc node itself doesn't need to see the model, correct?

This came up in a game tonight, and I was just checking.

[PaintVagrant]

Im almost positive she can, because when you channel the spellcaster is still the attacker.

[Bl00dw0lf]

I confirmed it on the rules forum. Thanks paint!

[Demeritus]

I confirmed it on the rules forum. Thanks paint!

Could you post a link to this? For some reason I thought it didn't work that way.

[Bl00dw0lf]

Could you post a link to this? For some reason I thought it didn't work that way.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...-and-Arc-Nodes

[FearLord]

Could you post a link to this? For some reason I thought it didn't work that way.

You could be thinking of Phantom Hunter (which doesn't work when arcing - either cast on her or the arc node)... True Sight does work, because the model with it simply ignores what it ignores when attacking, which you still do with an Arc Node (all it needs are line of sight and range).

[raptor1313]

Alrighty. I've made some changes in the main post. Thanks to the commnity for some excellent contributiosn to this; I'd missed some stuff the first time around. Let me know if I missed anything, though I think I'm about at the length limit for the post as-is.

[Bl00dw0lf]

Best way to use Arcantrik Bolt IMHO? USe it on the higher defense jacks and beasts out there (that little invisible Cryx crab jack with a defense of 15 comes to mind).

Have K arc arcantrik bolt on it. Boost to hit.

For the rest of your turn, all of your units that CAN hit it are hitting it at DEFENSE FIVE as it now cannot move.

Spending 3 focus from one unit to save all of your jacks and other units the focus and aggravation is a nice ability!

[serrasin]

Its also fun to channel through an arc node to pop stealthed targets, or to hit a jack with and knock them out of the casters control range.

[mindflayer]

I wanted to add that Backlash is good against stealthy casters. Even if Kaelyssa can't get within 12" of them, she can probably get a node within 8" of a 'jack. Then you kill the caster by killing the 'jack. Looking at the Kaelyssa tier list, I also want to point out that the list answers stealth pretty well since almost everyone in the list has stealth themselves. You're basically ensuring their will be plenty of melee combat in such a game, but the MHSF can actually handle themselves well enough against most of the other stealthy units. In other words, we counter their threat by presenting the same threat to them. Off hand, I can't think of too many stealthy units that are really equipped to fight other stealthy units.

[Bl00dw0lf]

I wanted to add that Backlash is good against stealthy casters. Even if Kaelyssa can't get within 12" of them, she can probably get a node within 8" of a 'jack. Then you kill the caster by killing the 'jack. Looking at the Kaelyssa tier list, I also want to point out that the list answers stealth pretty well since almost everyone in the list has stealth themselves. You're basically ensuring their will be plenty of melee combat in such a game, but the MHSF can actually handle themselves well enough against most of the other stealthy units. In other words, we counter their threat by presenting the same threat to them. Off hand, I can't think of too many stealthy units that are really equipped to fight other stealthy units.

Could be wrong...it has been a looooong day....but I think Backlash only gives the enemy caster ONE point of damage per attack. So if you hit a jack in nemo's BG and do a gazillion damage, Nemo still only takes ONE damage.Now if Eiryss and 2 Ghost Snipers hit that Jack and do the 3 "auto damage," then Nemo takes 3 MORE damage...and so on and so forth...

So a good assassination run from this spell....not likely. But if you could walk a phoenix up, combust, damage jack (one point to nemo), then buy three attacks, 3 more to nemo....that could be 7 in a turn with the 3 snipers/one phoenix method.

If you UPKEEP that, and do all the damage to a jack until it splodes, THEN you could cast the spell AGAIN on another jack, shoot it with K for some more damage to nemo (assume 2) and do ANOTHER phoenix 4 points to nemo combo...

That's already 13 damage...more than enough to "soften" him up for Narn, who may or may not be base to base with maddie Corbeau....then finish things off either with a phantom hunter shot from a hydra (if hes within range) or maybe just wait till next turn...

either way could be awesome and I never fully appreciated just HOW awesome till now!

Thanks!

[NaZ]

you are correct that it is 1 point of damage per incident of warjack damage regardless of warjack total damage accrued. however the kalyssa MHSF attack works around this through sheer number of shots.

backlash must be boosted (cant risk missing) leaving her 3 focus. alcantric bolt for 2 more and fire gun 2 times. total 3 dmg
small squad of 6 MHSF plus UA shoot, missing only on double 1's. 7 hits is likely but we'll go with 6. with boosted dmg odds are 5 successful hits. total 5 damage
second squad repeats above action, for a total of another 5 damage

Eiryss takes a shot, for another damage to the warcaster

from there you still have (at least in my 35) 2 more ghost snipers or MHA's and narn, a phoenix, and a hydra to hit it further. that should bring you up to between 17-20 damage on the warcaster in a single turn.

if they lived, it will be just barely. since we dropped feat this turn, retaliation against this attack is very difficult for most armies. next turn all of those units are going to shoot the warjack or the warcaster (MHSF ignore LOS, phantom hunter, true sight) so really the warcaster's only option is to slay kalyssa outright (you played your attack badly if this is possible) or to run. is that going to get a way from a 6" move and a 15" Phantom hunter shot from a hydra? probably not.

the great thing about this strategy is most players play their warjacks forward. if a single one steps into range of kalyssa or of the arc node, then you can pull this attack off with relative ease.

NaZ

[Bl00dw0lf]

Stealing the last two posts for the "Thinking outside the box" thread.

Although, this isn't lateral thinking.

This was the obvious sitting right there before my eyes the whole time.

Anyway, a new player can now benefit from the Backlash Assassination Run.

[raptor1313]

you are correct that it is 1 point of damage per incident of warjack damage regardless of warjack total damage accrued. however the kalyssa MHSF attack works around this through sheer number of shots.

backlash must be boosted (cant risk missing) leaving her 3 focus. alcantric bolt for 2 more and fire gun 2 times. total 3 dmg
small squad of 6 MHSF plus UA shoot, missing only on double 1's. 7 hits is likely but we'll go with 6. with boosted dmg odds are 5 successful hits. total 5 damage
second squad repeats above action, for a total of another 5 damage...
NaZ

Side note, I'd use Arcantrik Bolt first, just to get the Stationary on there so Backlash only misses on snakeyes. If you can guarantee Stationary on there, the rest of the attack is likely to go much better.

I will definitely have to use this trick, though, against my WM-playing buddies. Most of them DO roll with jacks forward.

I'd also caveat that the Backlash assault won't work so well against Karchev because he's about half again as tough as the other guys, and he's bringing ARM20+ jacks, but Special K is also likely to be a bit more aggressive, with his whole 'Tow' gig.

[Bl00dw0lf]

Side note, I'd use Arcantrik Bolt first, just to get the Stationary on there so Backlash only misses on snakeyes. If you can guarantee Stationary on there, the rest of the attack is likely to go much better.

I will definitely have to use this trick, though, against my WM-playing buddies. Most of them DO roll with jacks forward.

I'd also caveat that the Backlash assault won't work so well against Karchev because he's about half again as tough as the other guys, and he's bringing ARM20+ jacks, but Special K is also likely to be a bit more aggressive, with his whole 'Tow' gig.

True on the Special K/Backlash thing.

But he usually has his Berserker cronies with him in droves, so we could at the very least weaken down to the realms of "normal," non God like casters.

[NaZ]

the thing is it isn't a 1 trick pony. just a natural function of the tier force. I'm convinced the ghost snipers are better than the MHA's, but being able to redeploy an entire unit of MHSF throws people off and makes flank or refused flank deployments AFTER they've done their advance deploy very possible.

[raptor1313]

Regarding the MHSF/Backlash/Stationary combo:

I think it's got some great potential against Warmachine, but is there really anything a Tier list can do against Hordes? It seems like the tier list's relying on jacks and MHSF to do the damage, and I'm not really convinced that a bunch of POW 12s will do much to warbeasts that tend to be DEF 12, ARM 16-18. POssible, yes, but without the additional dice...maybe I"m missing something but I think it's a terrible matchup (but that's what multiple builds are for, yes?). I'm not sure in that situation that redeploying a MHSF is really enough to back it up.

I also think that in general, heavier armor kind of laughs off the ARM20+ that Khador can put out.

Regarding Karchev, he ALSO tends to have at least one unit of mechanics, which makes him STUPIDLY resilient. The ability to heal 1-3d6 is ridiculous on him, since his base ARM is pretty much a regular caster half-camping. (Makes up for the fact he often doesn't camp and is a big target). I think I'd rather leverage any MHSF or Phantom Hunter shenanigans on killing the mechanics as fast as I can, as I think assassination is pretty much the only way to go against Big K because he's probably got Khadoran jacks on/near/in the objectives pretty quick.

While MHSF do have the lovely phantom hunter shenanigans for support-hunting, I think it's worth noting they can get a lovely 9+4d6 charge off against Khadoran jacks, and unless they've got access to boosted attack rolls, DEF 14 is "Ha! You missed!" territory, and frankly armor is irrelevant on single-wound infantry against Khadoran jacks.

Also, I will vouch for the Hydra + Phantom Hunter combo. Even doing something as simple as removing Kovnik Joe from the equation with a winter guard blob is so totally worth it. Took a few focus, but considering his effectiveness...yeah.

I will also forward on the Hydra in general the abject joy of "Oh, you hit me. Thanks for the focus," which is even better when the other guy is nicking it with blasts and sprays.

[knight_actual]

Kovnik Joe will take an arcantrik bolt to remove

[NaZ]

I've gone up against trolls and assassinated his caster on the 2nd turn when it strayed too close. a couple of good rolls from 2 squads of mhsf, a Hydra with phantom hunter, and kalyssa's shots were more than enough.

that being said, I use kalyssa almost exclusively against warmachine, and use rahn against hoards.

NaZ

[raptor1313]

Kovnik Joe will take an arcantrik bolt to remove

I would've shot Joe with an Arcantrik Bolt, but there was a spriggan in the way...

I think I'd have to agree with NaZ on the Hordes matchup. Arcantrik Bolt and Backlash lose their lustre (and relevance, with the latter). Other than Parasite on pLylyth, I can't think of a lot of Hordes de-buffing anyway, so the odd offensive spell might get negated by Banishing Ward, but beyond that...I'm just not seeing a whole lot of use for Banishing Ward, which leaves Phantom Hunter shenanigans and Rift for trying to shut down the slow stuff...

[NaZ]

yup! While kalyssa is my A list and great efforts against warmachine, she loses a lot to hoards :/ So I use a rahn list instead which throws off a lot of hoards players.

She can be surprisingly brutal against WM lists, and true sight is fantastic with an arc node. Pair that up with phantom hunter on her and you can arc spells on to targets you cannot see but are within spell range of your phoenix.

always fun to walk up, combust a bunch of things, then arc spells now that the phoenix isn't in melee range.

her fury stealing gun is good, can be quite effective against warbeasts and mess up fury allocation next round. In melee this can be devestation!! I assaulted a beast with 5 fury on it and destroyed it with a nearly unlimited number of attacks that steal focus on each hit. so charge, boost attack, steal focus, use to boost dmg. buy an attack, hit repeat etc.

even more fun if you can slam the warbeast with a jack first so you cannot miss in CC against it. then its 1 focus to buy an attack, nic a focus to boost damage, repeat.

however she can be FRAGILE!!! and you have to watch out for aoe spells. If they deviate they do not trigger witchhunter!

NaZ

[ReaVeD]

Remember that if Phoenix is engageing but isn't engaged (i.e. when you're 1'' from a model without reach ) you can still arc node spells.
As for her peformance against Hordes, sure she looses some of her spells like Arcantrik Bolt or Backlash, but Phantom Hunter, Rift and Banishing Ward remain good. Besides most of Hordes locks are bit more squishy than WM casters so are easier to assassinate especially when you steal their fury camped for transfers.