Strategy Musings / Thunder_God Opines

[Thunder_God]

Now, don't me, and I really don't intend to get too big of a head, but this thread is for a combination of two things: My musings, and a strategy primer. Some of these ideas will be useful in all sorts of strategy games, some will be useful for general WM/Hordes purposes, and some will be useful just for Legion. I will be using Legion examples for the main part.

I am going to try and cover basics, such as list construction consideration for two-list Steam Roller events, deployment considerations before you even see the table you're going to play on, comparison of models, the use of terrain, etc. I'll also post here musings that I think are interesting, such as regarding models which I think deserve a more in-depth look and may change the way Legion plays.

I will post at most one post a day, but most posts should be quite more infrequent. I'll try to get this post, or specific ones linked at the sticky. I will use this post to link to all of the main posts I make. They will run from the more basic to the more advanced. I am not attempting to cover any topic in its entirety, but just in-depth enough to get people started, to provide food for thought, etc.

Now, a request: Please do not run long nit-picking arguments in this thread. Often we see people "Arguing for points", where they accept one model is good and another crap, or one's better 95% of the time, yet they keep bringing up those 5%, even though they know it's just flat-out worse. Don't do that here. Take it to another thread, because here I want to keep discussion on each mini article before moving to the next one.
We accept every model has its uses, and can be better in some situations. Don't make this the point. Also, when I make an example, such as "Scytheans and Ravagores with Vayl" in the first post regarding Buffs? Don't mistake the specific case for the whole thing. The real point is "Buffing", and those two models are just going to be used as an example to get you thinking. Of course the Scythean also adds extra things. That's not the point.
We're not arguing for points here.

Table of Contents:
1. Post #3: On Buffing.
2. Post #4: How The Scythean Came Along and Kicked Out the Angelius.
3. Post #10: Starting Legion.
4. Post #26: Points, (Support, Fury). Part 1 of 2.
5. Post #29: (Points,) Support, Fury. Part 2 of 2.
6. Post #31: Infantry 1: On Concentration of Power.
7. Post #37: Why the Seraph and Slipstream Rock.
8. Post #48: Tech Trees - Laying Groundwork for Future Turns.
9. Post #51: Tempo - Posting Pointed Questions and Controlling the Pace.
10. Post #56: Addendum: Discussion; Interlude: The Fruitful Void of List-Building (addendum to the previous post, and a general point/stepping stone to the next couple of posts).

[Thunder_God]

Space saved, one post, just in case.

[Thunder_God]

There are two main ways to buff models, and not surprisingly, these may also be the two ways to build lists. When you build lists, you often include models that work with your Warlock, or rather, that your Warlock buffs in one of two ways, so it?s not surprising the two issues are so intertwined.
This is because another word you could use instead of ?buff? is ?complement?.

The two ways to buff models is to either strengthen their weak-spot, so they?ll be more all around great; or, to take the thing that is already their strong suite and make them really good there. Often such overcharging will leave the opponent with little they can do to counter it, or will require a huge amount of resources to deal with.

Consider Absylonia?s spell Forced Evolution that gives a beast +2 DEF (and +2 STR, but that?s less important for now). Going on one of our Serpentine heavies who have DEF 14 naturally, it takes them to DEF 16. This is stacking a bonus on a model?s good side, especially considering these models can?t be knocked down in order to negate their high DEF. This is also why we later add a Shredder?s Tenacity, because at this point if you?re overcharging, you may as well go all the way.

Now, let?s look at the Carnivean frame heavies. They have DEF 11, which is quite low. If you give them the Forced Evolution + Tenacity treatment, they go up to DEF 14, which for heavies is very respectable.
Of course, the real trade comes because the spell also has a second part, the +2 STR side, which shores up the serpentine heavies? low STR, and overcharges the Carnivean frame?s high STR, which is also useful for power attacks.

With Absylonia, you usually want all of her buffs on all the heavies you take, simply because while they overcharge some models, they shore up weaknesses of others. With Forced Evolution, you?ll always overcharge something, so you always want it to go on almost everything.

When you build a list, you always take the buffs into account, and it?s important to note that this is an example of where you begin planning your in-game strategy before you even see what the opponent brings to bear. People often bring more than one model that can benefit from a buff, in case one gets taken out (often less relevant with units). It might also be interesting to take both models where you overcharge one and shore up another?s weaknesses with the same buff, so you could have different options in the game ? provided of course, that it won?t just tempt and confuse you on which one to use the buff. You should usually err on the side of over-charging with offensive buffs, and shore up with defensive buffs (such as giving Stealth to single wounder infantry over a high DEF serpentine beast).

When you build a list, you often do these same things, though you are more likely to try and do both rather than just overcharge your buffs ? you try to make whatever strong suites you have more pronounced, while also counter some of your downsides. Unless you go for a one dimensional and often spam list, which kills everything that?s not prepared, but is at a serious disadvantage to other builds (just infantry, just heavies, just ranged, etc.).

The last point to consider are ?universal buffs?. Upkeeps go on one model, two if you swap them by upkeeping, activating the first model it?s on, and then re-casting on another unit (usually not that feasible with defensive buffs). Universal buffs work on everything, so you don?t have to worry about whether you overcharge or shore up, you can do both.
A good example for this sort of thing is the effect Saeryn?s feat has on beasts, making them all more surviveable, but also overcharging those with Flight. Or pLylyth?s feat making things with good RAT/MAT even better, and things with low capable of hitting at all, or Incite and Manifest Destiny.

Now, let?s look at Incite. You can of course just over-charge your list when you build it, or just shore up ?weak? models to make them actually adequate (they?re not really ?weak?, you just fix the things that are less amazing with them). Consider the Scythean and Ravagore with Vayl.
The Scythean has a really good threat-range, high damage output, and with Incite, it?ll be even better at taking out infantry (with MAT increase) and heavies (via PS increase), and even casters (through both, and chiller too). So you?re overcharging this melee beast.

The Ravagore has a really nice gun, and you usually take it for the gun. The Ravagore is lacking in melee, as its PS 16 is not enough to tackle high ARM heavies (which you will face), and with MAT 5 you?re going to face issues with anything from some heavies to most infantry. Enter Incite, transforming the Ravagore into MAT 7, two*PS 18 with 4 Fury to burn. This is better than most melee oriented jacks/Beasts can go. Now, it gets there with support, and other things can get there (and better!) with support, but usually it?ll be a dedicated support spell, and not something that they could benefit from ?for free? as you?re going to use it anyway to buff other things.

There are break points, once you reach a certain PS that is ?Enough?, certain MAT that is ?enough?? more is always better, but sometimes you are ok with paying less for that so-called enough, or taking a multi-tasker, such as the Ravagore with its awesome gun, when such a buff could crank it up like this. Now, I?ll be honest, if I had a +2 MAT/+2 PS single warbeast spell, I?d probably put it on the Scythean over the Ravagore, as I?d try to get everything out of it. But with Incite? If points allow, I?d actually consider taking Ravagores over Scytheans, though I might just default at taking both.
With global buffs, consider what?s good with them, not just what?s over-the-top. Because many of the things that become good/great with them (but not amazing), have other things that they?re already great at - a Ravagore under Incite is great in both melee and ranged, rather than great at ranged and very lacking in melee without it, or just really great as the Scythean is in melee under Incite.

I would like to circle back and mention something I?ll expand later on: Animi. Animi, especially those that are range: Self are all about either fixing holes, or making some advantage even more pronounced. And sometimes, you only need a part of an animus, so you get less from paying for it (and the model it?s on), but you still want the whole package. But this will be discussed later on.

[Thunder_God]

Back during the FT people outside Legion complained about how auto-include Typhon was. I told them, that Legion only has 4 heavies (and did at the time), with only two being really melee capable of tearing out enemy heavy jacks without any form of support, and seeing as Typhon was just 1 point over the Carnivean, there really was no reason that we wouldn?t take Typhon.
I also added that I was sure that as MK 2 releases rolled along and we got more options to fulfill this role, cheaper, we?d see less and less of Typhon.

So MK 2 came out, and with it Typhon was weakened, the Carnivean got two open fists, and we have received the Ravagore and Scythean. And what do we find, but it's that instead of Typhon being replaced, it's the Angelius getting replaced, and mainly by the Scythean. Of course, with time and as more people will be able to buy the Ravagore, the Angelius will also get threatened from that direction.

The Scythean is not really an Angelius replacement, as they fulfill different roles, it is true. The Scythean and the Angelius are both replacements for the Carnivean, surprisingly enough.
When you look at the Scythean, it does one thing, and it does it well: It butchers things in melee. When you look at the Angelius, it is a versatile warbeast that does many things; some of them it does well, and others are very situational but can rock when they come to light.

The Angelius has a boosted handcannon, it can really maim heavies and lights, it can kill infantry and then keep on moving, it has a HUGE unaided charge (or even walk and hit) range, it has an animus that can move things out of the way, and it can block LoS with its serpentine body.

It can?t really kill too much of most infantry, as with MAT 6 you?re going to fail to hit most infantry after a couple of attacks, so you won?t get the whole package out of the Angelius. With PS 14 you?re not going to do much to most heavies after the initial AP attack, and you?re going to have some issues with small-base casters (being most of them), due to a combination of MAT 6 and PS 14 (after 16 on the first attack) making it quite unable to seal the deal on its own against numerous casters. The animus can be quite potent, and is certainly better than on the Dire Troll Blitzer, but it?s exceedingly situational. Finally, if you?re taking a Seraph (which you usually should), you already have a large based Serpentine model to hide behind.

To sum it up, the Angelius is a versatile beast, being the jack of all trades and not really the master of any beyond killing light jack/beasts, and the really low health/ARM heavy warbeasts. For a 9 point warbeast, this is about what you can expect.

Now, I said he?s a ?replacement? for the Carnivean, but this is mostly from a design stand-point. The Carnivean can kill things in melee, the Carnivean has a ranged weapon, the Carnivean has a large threat range (due to assault and spray 10?), and the Carnivean has situational shenanigans (two open fists, on a beast you usually want to be killing things with its combat action).
But being 11 points, which is 2 more than the Angelius (2 points being A Big Deal ? in MK 2) it does most of what it does pretty well, and the spray is more of a bonus.
The Carnivean seems like a melee beast and nothing else, but it?s a melee beast, who also does extra things. It is versatile, if only for being able to perform all power attacks (compared to the Angelius only being able to use Push/Headbutt, and to do that will give up on its AP, its only saving grace).
I would mention Typhon here, but being a character Warbeast with as many special rules/situations as he does kind of precludes him, but he?s even more versatile.

The Scythean is also a replacement for the Carnivean, one which is certainly worth its price, and does bring less to the table. When you bring the Scythean, you know what you are getting ? raw damage output, and it doesn?t matter what the opponent?s base-size is. You?re going to whack things in melee. There aren?t really many tricks/shenanigans to use with the Scythean, and you?re getting something very close to the raw melee damage output of the Carnivean. This is a ?replacement? in the sense that it fulfills the main role of the Carnivean (in most lists) but does so for less points.

Now, if you want a versatile beast, the Angelius is more tool-kitty than the Carnivean, but it doesn?t really do what the Carnivean does. And most of its roles are not fulfilled that well. But since it?s still 2 points less than the Carnivean, and does different things, you could still take it. In the end though, the Scythean didn?t replace the Angelius because the Angelius was merely a bad replacement for the Carnivean, and the Scythean supposedly isn?t, but because the Angelius had failed to impress on too many occasions, me and others.
Too often the Angelius either fell short of its goal (killing a heavy or not removing enough infantry due to MAT) or felt like overkill (taking too many resources to kill a heavy infantry model in melee, or a solo with his melee/handcannon). I almost never was happy with the Angelii in my lists, and so the Scythean had stepped into an open door ? a 9 pt heavy beast slot looking to be fulfilled.
The Ravagore really is the final nail in the coffin. While it doesn?t have the maneuverability of the Angelius (1 less speed, no Flight), it has a much stronger gun, so if you took the Angelius for its gun, you probably won?t anymore. And if you took the Angelius for its gun but also its ability to melee, then the Ravagore might be surprisingly effective as well, with its two open fists, or what it does with support (compare a Ravagore with Incite in melee to an Angelius with Incite in melee. Also consider power attacks such as Trample. I?d take the Ravagore.).

Now, the final point is Saeryn. If any caster should make the Angelius work, it?s Saeryn. In the end, Saeryn doesn?t really return MK 1 Wings back to us with the Angelius, if the opponent has anything to do about it and didn?t bring a list really light on models. In MK 1, you?d fly the Angelii to the front lines, feat to keep them safe, and next turn you?d fly to the enemy caster and whack them. In MK 2 with Flight, you either keep them safe as they position to kill the enemy next turn, or you enable them to fly over the protection and whack the enemy caster - but not both, not against an opponent who knows what he?s doing.

But, there is one extra point of light that Saeryn gives the Angelius, and that is the turn of invulnerability, which you should often use for the time honoured tradition: If you can?t kill the enemy this turn, try to make his situation as bad as possible while keeping yours as good as possible; in other words ? attrition. First strike is all about this, if my force can kill 50% of yours and yours can kill 50% of mine, if I get the first strike and reduce you to half of your strength, your retaliation (ignoring the fact about charges and such for the sake of the point) will only remove 25% of my forces. So you use the feat and the superior range of the Angelii to charge inside, half-kill his jacks, and then sit there safely and kill them the next turn, with the enemy army now having as many heavies less as you have Angelii. This is a good tactic with Saeryn, mind you, and back in the FT days I?d have suggested you utilize it.

There are several issues to note about the above, however. First, your Angelii have PS 14, so many enemy heavies might even risk taking a free-strike to disengage. Second, you usually don?t have a lot of models in such a list, and if you take two turns to kill those 3 heavies, how will you deal with all the extra infantry that a Warmachine list can bring? Legion in general and Saeryn in particular have a lot of infantry-clearing techniques, but when 18-27 of your points are invested elsewhere, it really becomes dicey.

The real issue, at least with regards to the Scythean (the Ravagore might prove even better, but I?ll let some time pass on that) with Saeryn, is this: Two angelii will kill two enemy heavies over two turns. Two Scytheans will kill 4 enemy heavies over two turns (one of them is a turn of invulnerability). They don?t have Repulsion so could get stuck, but there you could use Blightbringer/Forsakens. You can point your Scythean at something and be more sure it?d kill it. If nothing else, you can all but guarantee 2 Scytheans will kill 3 heavies, whereas you can?t really get that promise with 2 Angelii. Having those heavies off the table a turn earlier will free your Scytheans next turn, and remove all sorts of options the enemy player may have to free and/or heal his heavies.

The Scythean does not do what the Angelius does, it is true. But when you look for heavy-removal for 9 points, for the ability to kill casters you get into melee with, etc., the Scythean is your model. The Angelius offers more options, but so do the Carnivean and Typhon, and if I had to only pick one versatile model, it probably wouldn?t be the Angelius. Even with Absylonia, you don?t really take it for being versatile, but for a specific interaction it has. Versatility costs points, in 35 points you rarely have the points to spare. In 50 points? I?d usually go for versatility by way of having different beasts that fulfill different roles, instead of one beast that attempts to fulfill several roles (Ravagore and Scythean for instance, often a Seraph is already there).

[Supergeek]

Really interesting stuff. I wish I'd read this before my games yesterday. I Look forward to more.

[Thunder_God]

I'm glad you find it useful

But yeah, the point I think I tried to make in the last post was that from my experience and that of some others, even with Saeryn, if you were going to take 3 Angelii? I'd take 2 Scytheans and 1 Angelius instead. And that one Angelius is because some versatility is still good, and taking different beasts instead of 3 copies of one heavy is also a form of encouraging versatility.

[Lord Gordonis]

Very good Thunder_God I like the buffing topic especially. Can we either sticky this or put this in the tactica threadd as I htink this is very useful for new players who are getting into legion.

LG

[blitzmonkey]

Added to the sticky!

[Thunder_God]

Thanks! Glad you guys like it!

I think the next one will be about animi, it'll be a bit more wide-ranging, covering pre-game thoughts... well, it'll have some stuff to do with the Nephilim Bolt Thrower, and several relevant topics.

[Thunder_God]

Disclaimer: This thread is called "Thunder_God Opines", so it should be obvious these are my thoughts and personal tastes. This post might be even more so. The "rules of thumb" for list building are how I start my lists, the collection covers what I think are the models that should be going into most of your lists, etc. But it's a place to start.

List Building:
Here are some “Rules of Thumb” on how I build a list. Note, each Warlock obviously comes with stuff they do better, stuff they do worse, and specific models they want. This does not cover it, but it covers things that are pretty universal in Legion, and work well.
It will not yield any optimized list, but it’ll give you good lists for most casters that you could use to explore how you like to play them, and what is optimized for them.

1. Do I have a Seraph? Do I have a really good reason not to bring one? If not, bring one. Strongly consider bringing two.
2. Do I have 3 heavies? No? Is there a really good reason not to? If not, I bring 3 heavies. 2 heavies, a light and a couple lessers also works now and then.
3. Do I have how to deal with infantry? Do I have enough models on the board? If not, and I have 9 pts, I take Striders+UA. If list has 4 heavies, or 3 heavies and lights or some such, 2 Deathstalkers. If I am really tight on points and just want space? Eye the Legionnaires.
4. A Shredder, unless I really need the points elsewhere and I have a good reason not to take it (ranged killy before the Shredder is expected to make much impact, or Tenacity is needed), then I take it.
5. Does my list have a lot of Fury going around? Notice, with 3 heavies and a Shredder, the answer is probably yes, with about 14 Fury going around. Do I want to be able to force all my beasts to the max, for at least one turn, and expect to still need them around next turn? Hell yes. So in go 2 Forsakens.
6. Does my list have a high Fury caster with ways to dispatch of infantry (Saeryn)? Then I can consider 1. Does my list for some reason have 2 heavies and a Shredder only and a good Fury stat? Consider 1. Does my list have not enough points OR a lot of anti infantry powers? Consider 1-2 shepherds instead.
7. The heavies you take can change based on caster. Some weird lists (eThag shredder swarm+Scytheans) don't look like this, or if you decide to go with Swordsmen/Warspears instead of Striders. But this is a good way to begin a list. In the case of 35 pts, it'd fill most of it, and could last you for a year or so of playing. For 50 pts, it's a really good way to begin your list. Raptors can switch Striders+UA too, for instance....
The above is mostly for 35 points. It will yield you with a pretty typical 35 point list, one where you often can switch out the caster and 1-2 other models and still get a good list. It also helps you get 2-3 lists for a SteamRoller tournament early without a lot of different models.

You will also note I’m not really going “Caster Fury Times XYZ”, or “For every XYZ beasts include N amount of fury control.” I take more or less the same amount of beasts with most casters, and more or less take Fury mitigation tools with them all. Beasts are our forte, so they go in. Fury mitigation always helps when you want to force them all.
Don’t sweat too much about it, unless you’re trying for an infantry force and trying to calculate the minimum number of beasts/Fury to bring.

Which Models to Buy:
Now, looking at the above, and seeing what things start most lists, you will also have an inkling on what I want my collection to look like. I’ll try to cover it here.

Starting Collection:
These are the things you should buy as a beginner, read on for some caveats at the end:
Battlebox (pLylyth, 4 Shredders, Carnivean)
Seraph
Striders+UA
Scythean
2 Forsakens
1-2 other Casters.

This will enable you to field a 35 pt list with most casters that’d have teeth to it, be pretty competitive. You will probably tire quite early of the specific build it’ll contain you to, even with 2-3 different casters at your fingertips. I want to put “Ravagore” and a second Seraph on that list, but a second Seraph means you like the first enough, and the Ravagore is still too new. Regarding the Carnivean and the battlebox, I’ll explain later.
You can also get two Shepherds instead of the Forsakens or in addition, but I believe Forsakens are better, especially for the small collection player.

Big Collection:
Take the above collection, now you want to be able to make most competitive lists, for most casters, at 35 or 50 points (and 75 point lists will be easily doable as well). So take the above list and add the following models:

Complete to owning all casters.
2nd Seraph
2nd Scythean
1st Ravagore (perhaps second)
Typhon
2 Strider Deathstalkers
2 Shepherds (if you didn’t get them before)
Raek
Angelius
Legionnaires OR Swordsmen (and the UA)
1 Heavy Infantry unit of your choice (Warmongers, Warspears, or Gatormen Posse). Get the Warmonger War Chief if you went with Ogrun.
Full Raptors unit.

Now, this list has most things you need, with little chaff. And now for plenty of notes:
· Angelius is auto-include or nearly so with Absylonia, and you might want one with Saeryn at 50 points.
· You may want the Nephilim Soldier, and also the Bolt Thrower. Bolt Thrower is too new, and the Soldier I’m waffling on.
· The heavy infantry opens different avenues to you, and also work well with some of our casters (mainly pThagrosh), but they’re far from always taken.
· I prefer the Legionnaires over the Swordsmen as they’re a mass of bodies you can throw in any list. Min Swordsmen+UA is more of a priority over full unit without the UA. If you want infantry wrecking capabilities, they’re probably your guys.
· The Seraph is a heavy, an 8 point model, for $22. He’s one of the best “points per dollars”, so that’s another reason to get it early, or double up on it.

The Carnivean. I’m going to explain the Carnivean’s role in Legion right now, right here.
The Carnivean is usually not the first choice of most casters. pLylyth and Vayl would rather have Typhon, eLylyth would go for the Ravagore, most casters who have their first choices would go for a Scythean/Ravagore as the second choice, etc. But if each of those casters couldn’t get their first choice, the Carnivean will probably be the second choice. And some casters do want it (Rhyas, pThagrosh, 3 Carni chassis lists – the animus is sweet). So from a monetary perspective, a Carnivean might not be something you use often once your collection is big enough, but until that stage, you’ll probably use it all the time instead of what you don’t yet own, as it can cover all those holes. More-over, you get one with the battlebox that’s just a good purchase.

You can obviously keep getting more things after (or even instead) of this list. More Scytheans, more Angelii, going with 2-3 units of heavy infantry. Minions which I didn’t get into here, a third and even fourth Seraphs…

[PG_Countmoore]

Top notch write up Chief! Thing I like best is that it makes me think, I may not agree with everything but I'm going to read over a few lists and see what changes I could make and thats always good.

T

[Thunder_God]

Getting people to think about things, before and after games, is what I'm aiming at! If people would just copy what I write instead of thinking things through for their own, I'd be really sad with what I'd have wrought. Now, I do want and think my writings will help beginners by cutting the learning time; providing them with lessons the combined community had spent time to learn.

Now, I don't think, and I think I said so before, many lists will actually look like what you'd get if you'd follow my "Rules of Thumb", once you tune them to a specific caster. But if you build from the ground up it'll take longer, whereas many casters only need a few changes from where that'd lead you. pLylyth and Saeryn for instance can easily get a good solid list from those steps.

[Mezzanine]

I'm curious on your thoughts towards making the hard decisions with ELylyth list building. She has so many ranged options at her disposal its almost hard to narrow them down to which ones are most ideal. The 3 heavies that i like with her are 2 Ravagores and 1 Angelius (supported with one Forsaken) but is there a more ideal setup than that?

[blitzmonkey]

I'm curious on your thoughts towards making the hard decisions with ELylyth list building. She has so many ranged options at her disposal its almost hard to narrow them down to which ones are most ideal. The 3 heavies that i like with her are 2 Ravagores and 1 Angelius (supported with one Forsaken) but is there a more ideal setup than that?

I know the question wasn't directly towards me, but if you don't mind, I can offer some of my insight. The hardest part in making an E-Lyl list is determining if you want to put all of your eggs in one basket. If you want to go all out ranged or if you want some more balance.

With that, what I mean is what do you have that can handle their own in melee. Yes, the Ravagores are sitting on 16s, which are nothing to sneeze at, but something that can kill heavies are nice. The angel is a good beast for this IF you soften up the target with ranged. The Carni and/or Typhon does well in this role as well, depending on how many points you have to spend.

Nephlim Bolt Throwers are a gift. I would field at least one.

Teraphs actually are pretty good with her, and the Ravagore's animus actually makes them a very nice threat.

Again, the hardest decision is "do I want to go all ranged? (Angel) or do I want some more melee ability? (Typhon/Carni)"

[Mezzanine]

Well, I guess the downfall of playing the 'flexible' list is losing out on rate of attacks. Ravagore, Ravagore, Angelius only nets 6 attacks on Decimation turn while something like Teraph, Teraph, Teraph, Teraph, Scythean nets 8 attacks and still has the Scythean to take on heavies in melee.

Im not really sure the Bolt Thrower is a better option than the Teraph and since I don't own any Bolt Throwers, that makes it a hard sell in my eyes. The non elemental arrows seem to be the selling point but maybe I can give them a whirl even if Im skeptical. The Teraph does seems to have the same targets as Lylyth but thats not really a big problem at all.

I've toyed with using Wrong Eye/Snapjaw as that melee tank to free up Fury but its not worth dipping out of faction. I feel like Im losing too much synergy even if Im freeing up Fury. I don't like the Sprays because of the low RAT and I only ever use Pin Cushion on Jacks and heavy warbeasts. Sprays do have the perk of getting around a lot of annoying barriers and can be good in certain matchups, though. And, as always, its feels odd playing without a Seraph.

Not sure if there is a right answer. What I haven't done at 35pts is say 'forget the Striders' and just pile on the warbeasts and Fury support solos. Maybe just throw in a couple of Deathstalkers instead and save 5 points. Not sure how that would work out. Hmmm...

[blitzmonkey]

Well, I guess the downfall of playing the 'flexible' list is losing out on rate of attacks. Ravagore, Ravagore, Angelius only nets 6 attacks on Decimation turn while something like Teraph, Teraph, Teraph, Teraph, Scythean nets 8 attacks and still has the Scythean to take on heavies in melee.

Im not really sure the Bolt Thrower is a better option than the Teraph and since I don't own any Bolt Throwers, that makes it a hard sell in my eyes. The non elemental arrows seem to be the selling point but maybe I can give them a whirl even if Im skeptical. The Teraph does seems to have the same targets as Lylyth but thats not really a big problem at all.

I've toyed with using Wrong Eye/Snapjaw as that melee tank to free up Fury but its not worth dipping out of faction. I feel like Im losing too much synergy even if Im freeing up Fury. I don't like the Sprays because of the low RAT and I only ever use Pin Cushion on Jacks and heavy warbeasts. Sprays do have the perk of getting around a lot of annoying barriers and can be good in certain matchups, though. And, as always, its feels odd playing without a Seraph.

Not sure if there is a right answer. What I haven't done at 35pts is say 'forget the Striders' and just pile on the warbeasts and Fury support solos. Maybe just throw in a couple of Deathstalkers instead and save 5 points. Not sure how that would work out. Hmmm...

Don't take wrongeye/snapjaw. Bolt Throwers are nice because its 16 inch range on feat turn at a nice POW. The animus gives Elyl some nice movement options as well. AND it can open up LOS targets.

[Thunder_God]

I think you're both right.

Several things. Nephilim Bolt Throwers are nice POW, non-elemental shots, so they're definitely money with eLylyth. Might be a bit tougher to include them in 35 points, due to points. eLylyth may have gained "Too much" from the new MK 2 releases: You want Ravagores, and after Ravagores you want Teraphs to benefit from the animus, and you also want Nephilim Bolt Throwers.
At 50 points you probably want both Teraphs and the Bolt Thrower.

Wrongeye and Snapjaw were something we took before, when we had points to spare and wanted to expand our line-up. Now we just don't have the points to spare to him. I think controlling Fury with eLylyth will be more... exciting in days to come. Shepherds can be shot off, but Forsakens who can stay farther back can't handle the same amount of Fury.

Personally, if I went with 3 heavies, it'd be two Ravagores and a Seraph. Now, to put my cards on the table, I just love the Seraph. While eLylyth may not need Slipstream as much (speed 7, pathfinder, Evasive), Strafe still opens some options for those who hide behind.

Regarding Angelius versus Ravagore: Two Angelii on feat turn kill 95% of the casters (at least if they get to aim, assuming not a lot of focus camped). This is what people ran until the Ravagores came out. Ravagores deal considerably more damage, at slightly more range (and even more if they aim). Angelii are better versus infantry in melee, but what the Ravagores do to infantry in range blows it out of the water, especially with their animus. When it comes to battling enemy heavies in melee, if you want to not spend a lot of fury, the angelii are better. If you don't mind spending all 4 Fury on the beasts, then the difference shrinks. Also, access to power attacks.

Due to the cost of Ravagores, I'm still not sure that eLylyth can really handle 3 heavies in 35 points without it becoming an issue. She can, but it won't be anything like a balanced list. Well, actually she might, looking at it. But will probably have some holes somewhere.
The final thing I want to say (before some data) is, eLylyth got very impacted by the new releases. I'm not entirely sure there's a "correct build" for her right now. I think there are several builds that are all viable, roughly equivalently. As time will go by, as we'll have a chance to give her a shake, we'll slowly see which builds are better universally, and which are better against X while worse against Y.

Finally, some data. Angelius versus Ravagore damage output in melee. Assuming you're willing to spend all your Fury. Angelius is also more likely to get the first strike in.

DEF 12, ARM 18:
Angelius: Double boost AP, buy and boost damage, 19.48 damage.
Ravagore: No charge ? 6 attacks, 17.5 damage. Charge ? buy 3 extra (4 normal total), 16.625 damage (0.20 or so over double boost the charge attack and buy only two extra; 1.2 extra over double boosting both initials).
Difference: Angelius 1.98 over no charge, 2.855 over charge.

DEF 10, ARM 19:
Angelius: Same, 20.44 average.
Ravagore: No charge ? 6 attacks, 20.13 average damage. Charge ? buy 3 extra (4 total normal attacks), 19.67 damage.
Difference: Angelius 0.31 over no charge, 0.77 over charge.

DEF 10, ARM 20:
Angelius: Charge/boosted damage on AP, buy and boost damage, buy. 18.9 average.
Ravagore: Charge/boost damage on both initials, buy and boost damage. 16.26 average.
Difference: Angelius 2.64

The Angelius really doesn't "outshine" the Ravagore in raw damage output. More likely to knock out systems/branches, and get the first strike though.

[blitzmonkey]

Lots of helpful stuff.

In reading this, what would your opinion be on running a Ravagore, Angel, and Seraph? The Seraph gives Ravagore an impressive 22 threat range. It also gives E-Lyl the ability to run her heavies in waves, if that makes sense. Ravagore for long range with some melee, Angel as Mid-Ranged/Finisher, and Seraph as close ranged Rate of Fire. That would be 27 points out of her 40. 13 points left would be good for Stalkers w/attachtment, DeathStalker, and a Forsaken.

What would you get rid of for lights? Any redundancy that is glaring to you? I have my own opinions, but I'll let it simmer a bit more before I post them. I might add this is at 35 points, not 50. Do you think that Ravagore/Seraph might be the only 2 heavies to go with at 35?

[Thunder_God]

1. I don't think there's what to cut for the lights in 35 points. eLylyth, especially in 35 points, is a rock-paper-scissors kind of caster. You could cut the infantry unit and totally rely on the feat turn for make or break, but I like having a wee bit more options. Neutralyze suggests Raptors, and in this list, they may be very good.
eLylyth is Rock-paper-scissors, she does well against things that hate stealth, or bring few models with relatively low ARM (he swears by eLylyth versus Legion, for instance). And she loses to things that are a whole load of high ARM, and fast enough to engage without losing too much on the way in.

2. There's really no reason to take an Angelius. I didn't post this before, but here is the data for Ravagore ranged. This is for two attacks, so covers two Ravagores on a regular turn, or one Ravagore on feat turn. Another thing Neutralyze pointed out is that Pin Cushion is very necessary when killing heavies, on whom eLylyth can even hit with it (perhaps even cycle it among two):

TWO ATTACKS:
Ravagore Ranged:
DEF ARM Damage Aiming DMG
12 18 13.611 14.722
10 19 12.768 12.949
10 20 10.841 10.995

With Pin Cushion:
DEF ARM Damage Aiming DMG
12 18 17.975 18.417
10 19 16.427 16.478
10 20 14.44 14.487
(Note: Fully boosted attacks, both attack and damage rolls)

Note it takes on feat turn two Ravagores to kill, say, a Reckoner in range, with the help of Pin Cushion. But if you kill the right systems, you can leave it crippled (we'll ignore a menite jack wall is a nightmare match-up for this).

Now, I posted this in order to get to my point: You are not going to take an Angelius, for any sort of reason, with eLylyth. On feat turn, the Seraph is pretty far ranged as well, well, as mid-ranged as the Angelius, basically.
The Angelius is not a "finisher". Sure, it only tugs in terms of Fury to kill something that's mostly dead, but once you're in melee, you may as well give it your all. As you see from the "Difference" line in my post above, the Angelius really is not going to deliver much more damage than the Ravagore will. If all that's needed is someone to "finish" the enemy, then the Ravagore can do it just as well in melee, and considerably better at range (with +3 POW, and much better to ensure less infantry arrives at melee to begin with).

There really is no place for the Angelius in this list at 35 pts and above.

ETA:
3. You could remove a heavy/units for the lights, cause let's face it, each Ravagore = 2 Teraphs. If two Angelii can kill a caster on feat turn, then four Teraphs do it better (each Teraph has +1 POW, +1 RAT, -1 FURY, and -2 RNG) - so rather than 4 double boosted POW 12 and possibly aiming bonus (RAT 5/7), you get 4 fully boosted attacks and 4 attack roll only boosted POW 13 shots, (aiming yes/no being an interesting question, due to lower range but AD?). Also +2 cost.
Thing is, it probably does worse at killing heavies at range, though I need to do the math, even if it's better at killing casters. There's a reason people took the Angelii over the Teraph-spam, and not just cause they think Teraphs suck, it's because they wanted to be able to deal with heavies later.
Ravagores probably deal better with heavies at range, and if you do 2 Ravagores or 4 Teraphs probably do better against infantry as well (fire and scathers from farther away). Switching 1 Ravagore for 2 Teraphs may be interesting. I'll run the math later. You can assume against casters the two Teraphs will do better.

Ok, the results do not support my hypothesis. 2 Teraphs far out-damage 1 Ravagore versus heavies on feat turn:
TWO TERAPHS!
Teraph Ranged:
DEF ARM Damage Aiming DMG
12 18 18.51 21.12
10 19 17.47 17.98
10 20 14 14.41

With Pin Cushion:
DEF ARM Damage Aiming DMG
12 18 27.785 28.717
10 19 24.8 24.975
10 20 20.95 21.097
One attack fully boosted, one only damage boosted, PER TERAPH

Now, two things to note: You could just boost the damage, and then it'd be the same fury load as each Ravagore, per two Teraphs. But as you can see from the difference in "Aiming DMG", it will actually change your expected damage output. This is considerably more fury intensive (6 fury instead of 4), but the damage output gained versus heavies is about 4-7 without Pin Cushion, and 6-10 with Pin Cushion.
You will also note that the higher the ARM goes, the less benefit two Teraphs provide over one Ravagore (doubly so in melee). If you're facing an enemy with ARM 21 jacks via support, or such shenanigans, the returns on the Teraphs will be diminishing quickly. When fighting against ARM 18 or lower heavies (warbeasts, Cryx, Cygnar without Arcane Shield(?!), Retribution), the two Teraphs will allow you for considerably more damage. Three Teraphs with pin cushion are only a few points of damage short of crunching a khadoran heavy, and will ably kill a Menite jack stat-line.

So, more fury intensive, higher damage output, but diminishes the higher the enemy ARM is. Also works differently once you enter melee, or versus infantry. So think about it... The Nephilim Bolt Thrower are in between due to their lower RAT, higher POW, and their in-between cost. They also run the issue that multiple of them may end up throwing your beasts outside of the range of your next beasts.

[Shadowtide]

I think that people have undersold the nephlim bolt thrower. Its ability to push back enemies makes it vastly superior to the teraph in an eLylyth list. Consider the fact that each shot pushes back an enemy d3 inches, an average of 2. This means that two bolt throwers could push an enemy back 4 inches each turn, or 8 inches on the feat turn. With 18 inch range on the feat turn they wont have trouble staying in range, and if you accidentally push them back to far, then you can use your remaining shots on something else. Chances are, an enemy beast that is over 18 inches away wont be a problem for at least another turn or two. This is also helpful in scenarios where the objective is to control points, because heavily armored enemies can be pushed back to prevent them from contesting points.

Compared to the teraph, the extra range on the bolt throwers means that you can deal with faster units before they get within charge range. This can be helpful against light cav, like the kind emplowed by legion or circle. Combined with the push back, this means that you could get a bare minimum of two turns of shooting at a fast beast like the angelius.

Collectively, bolt throwers and ravagores can deal with just about anything the enemy can bring to the table, and I will go through several common types of enemies.

Heavy beasts
Repeated pushback + pursuit from eLylyth should give you enough time to either kill them, or line up an assassination on the enemy caster.

Light beasts
Anything with armor 16 or under should get destroyed by the ravagores range 14 pow 15s, and their armor is often low enough to be threatened by fire as well. Arcnodes running down the flanks stand little chance.

Light infantry (troops with one hp)
Between scather and flaming aoes, light infantry will have a hard time, especially considering the fact that they can't hide in forests because of eyeless sight.

Heavy infantry (troops with multiple hp)
Highly armored infantry are the largest concern for an eLylth list that doesnt have a typhon, however they can still be delt with. Even heavily armored troops can be vulnerable to fire because it ignores the effects of shields and therefore shieldwall.

Based on this reasoning, I have made the following list:
eLylyth
2 Ravagore
2 Nephlim bolt throwers
Min striders
2 shepherds
I like the strider UA, but the list is tight on points after getting the beasts, and the shepherds are an essential furry management tool for a furry 5 caster.
The key to this list is that you don’t have to deal with every unit on the field, just the ones that are protecting the enemy warcaster. Once those are dealt with the game is over.

Edit: That's right thag-rush, for some reason I was thinking about arcing fire

[Thunder_God]

Ok, I'd like to note that eLylyth had been a tangent, and all discussions regarding what works best with eLylyth should be taken to another thread, at this juncture.

Cheers.
I posted the data, because it's numbers, and they may be useful elsewhere.

[thag-rush]

IRavagores are large bases, so they can target enemy warcasters behind a heavy infantry line unless the caster is within 1 inch of them.

wachoo talkin' bout, Willis?

[Tsaimath]

wachoo talkin' bout, Willis?

Well, it actually is half true if the Ravagore is on elevation
If the Ravagore is on elevation he can target the enemy warcaster regardless of Infantry blocking (or in this case don't block) LOS

[Shadowtide]

I'm into mathing out this game, and I would just like to know how you calculated the damage bonus from abilities like manifest destiny and pin cushion?

[Thunder_God]

Look at my signature.

I spent some time the last two days also covering the DTM, FWW, Scythean. And yeah, actually doing all the chain attacks exactly. I'll probably put it in that thread (the calculator one) at some point.

[Thunder_God]

This will be a more general post, which will cover topics regarding the whole game, including some highly debatable points. Please contain yourself and remember that this is a thread for learning and evoking thoughts on topics, rather than a place to argue about those points. And then, I will make points that make some comparisons between Hordes and Warmachine that will follow the points made before them.

1. Removing Lynchpins:
In a recent tournament I’ve played Vayl against pButcher. I went first, ran a Rabid Shredder up, a Slipstreamed Vayl hit it with her Oraculus, and one Hoarfrost later, 3 out of 4 Widowmakers were dead. Widowmakers that were the only real ranged trouble-shooters in the list, who can eliminate models from afar, especially support models. Widowmakers that cost one point per model.
If you go first, and are willing to spend the Fury, you should be able to get 3 Druids of Orboros, or 2 Strider Deathstalkers (with lucky deviation rolls, boosting damage). You could potentially get several regular Striders.

Points in our game matter, a lot. Since the transition to the Mk 2 point scheme, 2-4 points are a considerable shift in power. This is especially so as many people make lists and then end up with 2-4 points, into which they insert “problem-solvers”. Models that help control their Fury better, models that help deal with the enemy infantry when you have less models on the board, models that help deal with upkeeps/focus campers. These models just as often make an integral part of the list, but they often get the points at the end, as “problem solvers”.

Killing them before they activate costs you resources, both Fury, health on the Shredder, and positioning (your models would be elsewhere if you didn’t try to deal with the enemy’s models in this way). Now imagine that you could have eliminated those models, for free, before the game began.

Now, this is not to say that if a player was three points down these “problem solvers” would go out, because often you must deal with certain situations. But think about what an effect on game-play there is if you can remove these models from the game really early, before they have any chance to fulfill their role, the specific role only they can really fulfill in the list. Remove Strider Deathstalkers when you have a lot of single-wound infantry, or eEiryss when you want to camp focus and hold defensive upkeeps, and the game is already heavily tilted in your favour.
This is a general good plan for game-play.

2. Points Matter:
The above was to showcase just how important 2-4 points are, in our game. 3 points make the difference between a Seether and a Slayer, between a Seraph and a Teraph, between two Titan Gladiators and a Titan Gladiator and Molik Karn, between Striders having their Unit Attachment to not having it. Three points really shift the balance in our game.

Now, due to the compressed nature of points in Mk 2, it’s easier to imagine some models are at least half a point over-priced, or half a point underpriced. That’s really not hard to imagine and accept.
If one player has three models/units that are half a point overpriced, while their enemy has three models/units that are half a point underpriced, then suddenly there’s a 3 point difference between the two forces. This, as we noticed before, is actually something major. This is why even if two models seem very close, the slight disparity in power really matters.
This is mostly a theory discussion, and one that leads to much flames, let’s try to avoid it overmuch here.

Another point that comes from this is that “overpriced” and “underpowered” mean the exact same thing. Imagine the Scythean was priced at 12 points, or at 6 points. You can’t really argue the model had changed, since its rules would have remained identical. “Underpowered” does not really describe a model, but its place. Same as “overpriced” does. “Underpowered” should actually translate in your heads to “Underpowered, for its cost, in its faction.” But since a player can lose a whole 4-pt unit of Widowmakers and still win the game (he didn’t, that game), that an army has such a benefit does not mean that they are “unbeatable” or anything of the sort. They have a benefit, however.

3. But Only When List Building:
I think it’s important to ignore points while playing a game, for the most part. I think a useful image to be holding is that of a sheet of rubber, with weights on it. The more influential a model is to the game, the heavier the weight, and more it “warps” the area around it by its mere presence.
Models that cost more should theoretically warp the sheet, the game-play on the table more – either warping the area around them to a larger degree, or spreading the warp further. Often, it is a case of both.
As such, if players use more expensive models, that weigh more heavily on the sheet of power, or of the balance of power, they are expected to have less models, less weights distributed across the sheet. This also helps you form another image of why models being underpriced or overpriced is so important. This also ties into what is called “Projection of Force”.

Now, it makes sense that if your Raek can weapon-lock a 10-12 pt model from behind (With Absylonia, via Playing God), you’ll be ahead. Thing is, you won’t be ahead because your Raek is 4 points and the enemy’s model 6-8 points more expensive. If the enemy still has enough weights elsewhere, then all of this is meaningless. The upside you gain is by using a small weight that is rather specialized to neutralize a more heavy weight. This should get you ahead in the game by shifting the balance of power on the rest of the board – that it is a 4 pt model holding a model costing 2.5-3 times as much is irrelevant, as to what it makes the situation on the rest of the board.

While it may later frustrate you that you had to use a Carnivean/Typhon to deal with a model costing about half as much (Slayer, Ironclad, Nomad, Crusader, etc.), if the model best suited to deal with their model is one that costs half as much, and especially if you must deal with it, then deal with it. On the table, aside from for the purposes of Steamroller tiebreakers, models have no cost. Once you leave the list-building phase, wipe the models’ costs from your mind.

The next post will continue this topic, and discuss the concepts of support models/units, a general Hordes versus Warmachine game-play difference, and how the two issues combine.

[OrsusSmash]

Sorry to break up the flow of the two part post, but I just wanted to comment that this is a fantastic post for players looking to elevate their game. These concepts are what I've noticed beginner players getting hung up on, and they're ideas that "skilled" players understand implicitly.

Also, these points are even more relevant in a faction such as Legion, which relies more often than not on surgical attacks that need to cripple/maim the opponent.

Great work in this thread Thunder_God!

[Thunder_God]

That's the goal of these posts. I also try to make them useful to non-Legion players, thus some non-Legion examples as well.

Discussion at this juncture is perfectly welcome, as I decided this was enough for today's post, and the second part will come tomorrow, or possibly the day after, as part of the "One post a day at most," in part to allow some discussion of the post before the next one; though I expect discussion of both of them combined will also occur.

It's not really two parts of one post, but two posts, that are two parts, of a larger idea. The stop between the two parts, even if they are related, will be logical.

[Thunder_God]

This continues the discussion we made before, as it is an outgrowth of the concept of points, and the stark difference only a few can make. We also touched about removing specific models that perform a special role that cannot be replicated, in an enemy?s list. Another type of models that perform this role, apart from special ?Problem Solvers?, are ?Support Models?.

4. Support Overdose!
You remember my first post? On Buffing? If you take something mediocre and pour super-growth juice into it, it will turn to be anywhere from good to great. If you take something that?s already great and pour more resources into it, it can become amazing. This is the role support plays in the game, by taking things and making them better. They deal more damage, they take less damage, they are able to perform different roles, they are able to get somewhere to actually do what they need to do. The roles of support are as varied as the models that provide them and the models they are provided to.

Let?s take for example the Vassal of Menoth. This model can make a magical attack, give Enliven to a friendly Jack (a defensive buff) or enable it to make an extra attack outside of activation. The Vassal of Menoth costs 2 points. Let?s assume we include the Vassal in our shooty list in order to increase our volume of ranged attacks. The least expensive Menite jack with a ranged attack is the Repenter, packing a potent spray (with the aid of a Choir of Menoth, another support unit) for 4 points.
In order to get 4 Repenter sprays per turn, you could spend 16 points on 4 Repenters, or you could spend 10 points on 2 Repenters and 2 Vassals. Now, you don?t get all that 4 Repenters actually give you, but you do save 6 points, and the Vassals can also perform other tasks when you need them to, such as making your jacks safer should you not get the alpha strike.

Now, some things can be priced. For the cost of one extra Repenter, we got the number of ranged attacks you?d normally get from two (minus the ability to boost, however). But should we lose a solo that is squishier than a jack, we?d immediately lose one spray. Should we lose one Repenter, we?d lose two sprays, rather than merely one had we lost a Repenter. We pay less, but we are also taking a risk. Support models support, and should the support models be taken out, or should the models they support be taken out, we could possibly be worse off compared to where we?d be if we had skipped the support and just got the extra models.
Support is a risk, a calculated risk.

Sometimes support gives us so much for so little cost, and is often considered to be factored into our faction?s ?base abilities?. Consider for instance the Choir of Menoth. For every 0.5 points, a jack can get +2 to all attack and damage rolls, or one of two very potent defensive buffs. For the cost you pay, the rewards are too great not to take. Also, here as well as with the Vassal, the defensive buffs are unique, and are something you cannot simply get by getting more models ? in fact, this support can make the models you have survive longer than if you had simply got more models!

Support is good. Support is tempting. It?s quite easy to take a Menoth force, load up on jacks, load up on the (minimum sized) choir, load up on the vassals, load up on Vassal Mechanics to keep those jacks up and running, load up on the Covenant of Menoth to avoid doling out focus to shake knock-down from all of them, etc. Just the models listed will be 10 points, if you took all the solos at their maximum field allowance; 10 out of roughly 40 points (factoring in Warjack Points on the Warcasters). This may not leave enough room for the models who actually do all the heavy lifting.

Having choices is a good thing. Having choices is a hard thing. When I began playing Magic: the Gathering, I couldn?t decide what to take out, and my deck was 160 cards large, in 3 colours. I could see that each card could be useful, in some situation, and likewise, any model ?can be useful?. After my first time out with my deck I quickly downsized to 120 cards! And then began the grueling cutting down to 80, and then 70, but when I had new cards at a convention my deck always bloomed back up to 80 cards big. It was a long time until I mastered the ability to cut down to 60 cards, and not a single card more (for a period of time I?ve played with 64 cards, which used to be acceptable).

Having choices also means you can make the wrong choices. Having too much support is a nebulous term, of what is ?Too much?, but it does exist. Warmachine with their largest model selection have had this issue for a while, combining support and the previously discussed ?problem solvers? (?That are just so useful in Situation X!?), and there is always the desire to include more and more of them, rather than the bread and butter models, who do most of the heavy lifting in any list.

As Hordes gets along the release cycle, we too keep getting more and more choices, both support and problem solvers (Thrullg, Nephilim Bolt Thrower somewhat falls here due to untyped damage type). And it is important that your support models do not outweigh the models they support, that you are still capable to withstand the assault by the usually numerically superior Warmachine forces. It also helps when your support is multi-purpose, such as the Forsaken helping with Fury, dealing with infantry, damaging warbeasts/solos, and threatening Warcasters who camp Focus.

5. The Hordes Answer:
?When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.?
A friend recently asked me ?How does Legion deal with X?? After giving him the regular old answer, ?Most times, when you ask how Legion deals with X, no matter what X is, Saeryn is probably the correct answer, or one of them,? I sat down and thought about it, and lighted up on a different answer, to which I?ll get shortly.

All-comer lists try to deal with everything. They have things that deal with infantry, things that deal with heavy warjacks/warbeasts, things that protect against assassination to a degree, that can attrition to a degree, things that can handle warcasters camping a moderate amount of focus, etc. They are designed to take on most things they come across, and through superior play and some luck, pull ahead and win.

Then you have the heavily stacked lists: Lists that have almost nothing but infantry, or almost nothing but heavy warjacks. These lists give a certain rock-paper-scissors vibe: Those who are unprepared for what they bring get annihilated, while they in turn are helpless against enemies who happen to bring their brand of poison.

The question of ?How does this army deal with X Feat or Y Spell? is less relevant to such armies, who rather than come to the game with multiple tools, comes with a pre-made plan and try to execute it no matter what. No matter what the opponent does, they will try to force through using their superior X, X being the element that they had stacked in their list.

Hordes, due to how robust and potent the Fury mechanic is, tend to load up on Warbeasts. The fact that in order for the Warlocks to function properly they must take up more Warbeasts feeds into this as well. Now, warbeasts cost more than warjacks that are supposed to perform the same role. Even though we began the first article by discussing overpriced and underpriced model, we will work under the premise that warbeasts are not overpriced and warjacks are not underpriced.
Even if there is no aspect of models being overcosted or undercosted, there is the simple matter that combining the fact that Hordes factions take more beasts than Warmachine factions take Warjacks, and that these beasts are more expensive, we quickly realize Hordes have less points to spend elsewhere ? on problem solvers, on support.

Seeing as having different models and different types of models helps solve answers, and that the other main source of problem solving is a caster?s list of spells, which is generally shorter in Hordes compared to Warmachine, you can see how in comparison, many Hordes lists, and most Legion lists, could be considered ?Stacked lists?. The answer thus, to how Legion ?Deals with X? is usually always the same ? Legion takes its heavy beasts, and by forcing them all as much as possible tries to hammer through its opposition, whatever it is. In the case of Legion, and Hordes in general due to its relative attrition deficiency, the ?Hammer through? means not to take out the entire opposing army, but take out whatever stands between you and the enemy caster, and kill that caster.

Support in Hordes should be rarer, simply because there are fewer points to spare for it, especially if you want to be able to have some attrition resiliency (either through infantry or surplus beasts). The main support that you should be taking is the one that feeds into your win condition ? Fury Control, that lets you get as much out of your beasts, turn after turn.
Of course, in larger games the Hordes factions, and even Legion, grow more capable to both play to their strengths and cover their weaknesses. But having began with what an effect 3-4 points can have in a 35 point game, know that should there be a 5 point difference, even if seemingly insignificant in comparison, it still has an effect; but so does having the option of loading up on even more beasts, and stacking the board even more to your list?s strengths, but also its weaknesses.

[Thunder_God]

Remember my point on "Points Overdose"? Well, now you all want to take the Blackfrost Shard, don't you? Or add Anyssa to lists, or have both Hex Hunters+UA and your Striders. See, this is fun, isn't it?

[Thunder_God]

This will be a post about infantry, one which purposefully will be true for Legion two weeks ago, so you could draw your own conclusions as to how things changed. The second half about the Swordsmen had been cut for length, and will be added after a general post regarding the roles of infantry, written by a friend.

Concentration of Power/ Footprint - Infantry versus WarNouns:
The concept of concentration of force is a truly vital one in the game of Warmachine/Hordes. Even in MK 1 when the game was often derided as ?InfatryMachine?, there was one good reason to bring heavy jacks ? concentration of force. The concept refers to how much damage you can concentrate on a single point on the board ? most relevant for killing enemy casters and WarNouns (Warjacks/Warbeasts).

Infantry on the charge, especially weapon master infantry, can cause more damage than a single heavy warbeast, certainly if you don?t fully force the warbeast, or for Warmachine, where the amount of focus you have to work with is quite limited (especially across multiple warjacks). But how will that damage happen? It?d be spread across the board. You?ll cause a lot of damage if you combine it all together, but not that much to any one target.

Non-reach infantry have a hard time clumping around a target, especially with the straight-line limitations charges imposes. Reach infantry does better, especially if it?s against a larger base target so they can see over one another. But still, you can?t get a lot of infantry models attacking any one target.
Infantry also reaches issues when the target has high DEF or high ARM, DEF of 16-17 or higher, ARM 18-19 or higher. And if they have DEF 17 and ARM 20, then infantry is WAY out of its depth in taking down these, usually multi-wound, models.

Warjacks and Warbeasts, especially the Heavy variety of either, now, they usually bring high POW attacks to the table; when POW 16 is considered middling (especially amongst Warjacks), you know they mean business ? often the business of taking other models with ARM 18-21 and 30 or more damage points!
So the damage issue of those special targets? Covered. Most charging infantry don?t reach this POW, or weapon masters not charging.
When we come to high DEF targets, Warjacks and Warbeasts have the expensive (at least for Warjacks) option of boosting.

Finally, a heavy Warbeast with 4 Fury that reaches its target, it can deliver ~6 attacks with high POW against the target, it can make ~3 attacks that are highly accurate due to being boosted, and natively high POW. A heavy, it?s about concentration of hurt in one point on the board.

Thing is, when you need to cover a lot of ground with models, or deal with enemy infantry that covers a lot of ground, Warjacks/Warbeasts suddenly begin failing, especially when each trooper killed is a waste of precious Focus, and a model that should often be used doing other things.

And so, infantry is often used to control other infantry models, and the board, and warbeasts and warjacks are used to combat other warnouns, and kill casters. Light jacks and beasts are more commonly used for some support aspect they bring to a list. A specific problem solver (see post #26).

[Arasaka]

As a neophyte LoE player, I have been finding these posts to be very insightful, and I look forward to reading the next installment!

[PG_Pszito]

Congrats on Sticky, TG! Keep it rollin! ;-)

[sassmaw]

Thanks alot TG for the insite. It has been helpfull. In your list building article you say take a sereph, but i don't understand why. Why would you say the sereph is so good/ usefull in a list? What tactics would you use with it? The only reason i ask is because i just picked one up but i don't see its usefullness for it's points.

[Thunder_God]

Well, since it actually comes up a lot, that'll be my entry, likely for tomorrow.

[sassmaw]

Okay cool i will be sure to look that up.

[Thunder_God]

Now, it may seem to some that there is actually one question above, that the Seraph rocks because of Slipstream, and that the Seraph rocks entirely due to Slipstream. These people would say that explaining why the Seraph rocks could be explained entirely by explaining why Slipstream is great.
Now, Slipstream is great, but paying 8 points for Slipstream is pushing it (though if we got a lesser for 2 points with Slipstream I’d likely take 2-4 in almost every list that’s 50 points, and still take 1-2 in every 35 pt list). The Seraph is also a good beast on its own. There’s not a lot the Seraph does exceedingly well, but it does a lot of things, which end up making it more than worth its 8 point price-tag.

Slipstream:
Well, we should begin with Slipstream, which is something many players new to Legion ask about. They don’t see why it’s touted as so great.

First, how Slipstream works, because many players get it wrong:
The model who casts Slipstream (Warlock or Seraph; "caster") casts it, paying 1 Fury. Then the model moves. After the caster finishes moving you can move one friendly model (“target”) 2”. The target can be placed anywhere within 2” of the target’s current location.
Being a placement effect it doesn’t trigger free strikes, the model is not counted as having advanced, and you can choose the target’s facing.
A model can only be moved by Slipstream once per turn.

The most straightforward application of Slipstream is giving a model an extra 2” range on its movement.
Look at the Titan Gladiator and its “Rush”, which gives +2” to a beast and Pathfinder. Now, when your beast doesn’t have pathfinder, is slow (speed 4-5) you can really appreciate what Rush does. Rush costs 2. Then you look at Slipstream, and see it as 2” extra, and which requires the Seraph/Warlock to move within 2” of your friendly model, rather than cast it from 6” away.

When you play Battlebox games, there are often less models on the table, and as Legion we enjoy a rather large threat range, so it’s hard to see why you’ll need an extra 2”. The extra 2” will come to be seen as more important as you keep playing, and people will begin using combinations that give them longer and longer threat-ranges. Being able to still get the first strike with your Scythean against their heavy (11” without Slipstream, 13” with) will prove invaluable. Being able to move your model so it will get to shoot the enemy before they can run to engage you.
Any ability that can increase your threat range, especially charge ranges, is really powerful in this game. Especially for Legion that relies on the alpha strike.

Another relatively straight-forward and potent use of Slipstream is to avoid free-strikes. You Slipstream a model engaged by a couple of enemy models out of their melee range (works on a single reach model that is not base-to-base with your own model), and then it can keep doing whatever it wants to do without taking free strikes. Free strikes hurt, so this is good.

A more subtle use is the ability to change your model’s facing. A model that has to forfeit its movement can’t turn around and shoot, or turn around and attack something in its back-arc. Slipstream would enable you to change your model’s facing and still get to do what it wants to. A ranged model can be given an additional 2” and still retain its aiming bonus, for instance, because it does not count as having advanced.

This is very valuable to charging models, for two reasons: The first is that they need to have LoS to their charge target before they begin their charge, so if they’re facing the wrong direction you can give them a hand, and you can also shift the would-be-charger. Rather than giving it 2” forward, you can move it 2” to the side, to get a (better) charge lane. A shooter will also need this at times to be able to get the line of sight it needs to put a shot through some gap in the enemy lines.

Imagine a model needed to get ahead to shoot someone, affect someone with a feat, a spell, etc. but the forward position is obviously dangerous. Slipstreaming would allow your caster, for instance, to end an additional 2” from the enemy, which is often a good thing.

The final application is more subtle, I like to liken doing this with Vayl to opening more tech-paths in Starcraft – you may not have an immediate application for it now, but it’ll give you more pathways later. Your caster will often cast upkeeps first turn, so you will have to walk/charge it rather than run to position (assuming you go first). Slipstream a model first turn that is not very fast will amount to up to 4” the next round, and will open a lot more options for you.
If your caster would be 14” from people it wants to spell with range 10” spells (after moving), you’ll have had to have used Slipstream on it both the previous turn, and this turn. You can choose not to Slipstream the second turn, but doing so first turn, for your caster, for your Forsaken, will open a lot of options for them later on.

Slipstream has many uses, and the more games you’ll play with the Seraph, the more you’ll see situations where you can use it. Because the number of situations is so vast, and they so different from one another, consider the above as archetypes which come up more often.

The Rest of the Seraph:
The Seraph is still an 8 point model, so we need to see how it fills those shoes.

First, let us talk about what the Seraph doesn’t do: The Seraph does not make power attacks. At PS 14 with critical poison and MAT 6, it doesn’t do a whole lot in melee either. The lowly Nephilim Soldier has the same offensive stats, one less Fury, and Reach. It can kill some troopers, hurt light warbeasts, and kill an enemy caster if you’re desperate. To do well in melee it’ll usually require buffs, both accuracy and damage, but you’d rather buff a dedicated melee model, or even the Ravagore.
If you look for melee presence, don’t look at the Seraph. He helps your other melee beasts shine by giving them an extra 2” threat-range, but he’s not a doer.

Its defensive stats and its health means non-boosted non-elite attacks have a good chance to miss it, but most things that hit it and are over POW 10 will begin hurting it. Once the enemy begins hurting the Seraph in melee, it’s not long for this world. Luckily, as a ranged beast, it should probably not enter melee that much.

The Seraph has Serpentine, which as noted above is going to stop it from making most power attacks (it can still head-butt though). It’s not all bad though, as the Seraph can’t be knocked-down, which combined with its high DEF (14, 15 if you use Tenacity), can help keep it from being shot/hacked to death as would otherwise by the case.

The Seraph is a ranged beast. It’s on a large base. It has Serpentine. These things add up together to make the Seraph a good way to block LoS from your caster that is not as easy to work around as most other options. An Angelius can also do it, but since it likes being in the thick of things and your caster doesn’t, it’s an issue.

Finally, Strafe. Strafe means you have at least 2 shots every turn. Strafe means you have at least 1 shot that can be “bounced” off every turn. A Seraph that gets a bead on an enemy caster (especially one not camping focus) can often spell its death. A Seraph can be used to get rid of annoying Unit Attachments, support solos, or hurt casters that are hiding behind other models. It can also ding heavy infantry.
The Seraph’s strafe works better with buffs, as neither its RAT or POW are that impressive. Having a minimum of 2 shots per turn and 4 Fury means that if you did not use Slipstream, you’re guaranteed the option of having two fully boosted shots. And as the saying goes, “Boosted POW 12s kill casters.”

If you get lucky enough to get 4 shots on an enemy caster, it’s often best to boost all the attack rolls. Especially against ARM 15 casters.

The Seraph does a lot of things, it brings Slipstream to the table, it kills casters – even with direct shots or bringing down their health as they hide (just like sprays, in a way), and it helps keep your caster safe; through a combination of Slipstream and its Serpentine large base.
Get to know the Seraph, and it will serve you well. I rarely make a list without one. Two for pLylyth.

[Necra-Chi]

There are so many other great situational uses of slipstream. Or combinations of the above.

Combinations. Simultaneously free a carnivean from melee and place him in the perfect position for a spray with aiming bonus.

Other - fake charge slipstream. If your warlock has a melee weapon you can cast slipstream, charge your own model for distance and then use slipstream to save the model you charged, without it causing a failed charge, so you can still do stuff afterwards, including your initial melee attack! You can combine this with getting that model 2" ahead for better position as well. Very useful first turn.

[Cannotcope]

Another slipstream use I didn't see in my quick read of TG's post:

Slipping a model engaged out of combat and in position to charge right back in (works best against opponents that used reach to engage your model).

Oh, you engaged my Carni so I can't spray your caster? Watch me slipstream out, charge back in, assault the formerly engaging model, spray your caster and eat whatever that was that used to be engaging my Carni...

Seriously, if slipstream was on a 2pt lesser, I would just consider it a 2pt increase to all my other beasts and take one for each light and larger beast...

[Thunder_God]

As I said, there are endless uses. I did not attempt to exhaust all of them, as there are as many as game situations.

As for charging, on the whole, unless you charge for free, it's better to not charge. More fury efficient. Sure, you sometimes would boost the damage roll anyway, but it's better to only pay for that if the attack hits.