Khador Tiers: A Brief Overview

[GlassJaw]

I’ve been taking a closer look at the tiers lately, mostly out of curiosity, and I’m intrigued to give a few a try now. Some tiers are obviously more effective than others, and I think a few actually have the potential to be fairly competitive.

So here’s my take, which includes both effectiveness and practicality of actually fielding the models required. This also assumes you are trying to hit tier 4. Keep in mind that much of this is purely theorymachine so if you have any experience with any of them, feel free to add your thoughts!

pSorscha – Sorscha’s tiers are good, as the options available support her feat fairly well. The tier bonuses are decent, letting you include Kovnik Joe for free, extending your deployment zone, and granting heavy jacks Advance Move. The latter two are nice for extending the threat range of your bombards.

Getting to tier 4 is difficult at less than 50 points because it requires 3 jacks (one of which has to be Beast09). It can be done but you will have an extremely jack-heavy list with a caster that doesn’t do much to support jacks directly. At 50 points, your options are greatly increased and allows you to build a well-balanced force. Beast09 works great with because he’s focus-efficient and his affinity with Sorcha. You can’t include the Behemoth but Destroyers (bombard) and Kodiaks (also focus-efficient and chain attack knocks things down) are good choices. A Marauder would also work if you want more knock-down.

The other major requirement is 3 or more WG units. That sounds steep but it also includes mortars and field guns. A full WGI Death Star (UA + 3 rocketeers + Joe) will be brutal on the feat turn. I’d also include 2 mortars to further maximize her feat. You could also include WG Rifle Corps, but since Widows are allowed, I’d probably use them instead.

eSorscha – Compared to normal Sorscha’s tiers, the requirements for epic Sorscha’s tiers are more challenging to meet: 2 units of WGI, 2 MoW units, and 2 Kodiaks. That’s the bare minimum. Even with all min units, you are already at 34 points (leaving 7 left in a 35 point list). Needless to say, your list will be much more balanced and effective at 50 points.

If you can field all the units required, an epic Sorscha tier 4 list should be fairly effective. It also may be competitive in scenarios, since the tier bonuses let you place additional forests, grant your army Pathfinder on the first turn, and grant MoWs Advance Move, letting them get up the table more quickly. Between the Kodiaks and MoWs, you’ll have a lot of hard-to-kill models if you can get them on control points.

You can also round out your army with other WG units, Widowmakers (and Marksman), the Drakhun, Manhunters, and Beast09, which should let you create a balanced army.

pButcher – I like pButcher’s tiers a lot. He supports MoWs really well and can run multiple jacks because of Full Throttle (although focus-efficient jacks with multiple attacks are still best, like Kodiaks). The tier bonuses help the MoWs and jacks get up the field more quickly, although tier 4 is tough to make in games at less than 50 points. The Jacks + MoWs provide the Butcher with a lot of screens.

Lots of Khador’s heavy hitters are allowed (Widows, Manhunters, Yuri, etc). WGI are also allowed but unfortunately, Joe is not. Throw in some Kossites in larger games for added fun. The tiers don’t allow Beast or any models with magical attacks though, other than the Butcher himself. Requirements aren’t too difficult to meet, other than owning 2 MoW units.

eButcher – DOOMIES! This tier wins for pure crazy. 1. 3+ units of Doomreavers. 2. ??? 3. Profit! Not very practical because of the all the Doomreavers required, although those that have run it have had success with it. The rest of the requirements are easy to meet. The tier bonuses are so-so, the reduced cost of the DRs being the main reason to meet the requirements.

pVlad – pVlad’s tier is great if you like Berserkers, IFPs, and Greylords because you’re going to need a lot of all of them. The requirements are very steep - probably the steepest of any Khador caster - needing 2 units of IFPs (that’s a lot of brass-rodding), 2 units of Greylords, 3 Koldun Lords, and ONLY Berserkers. You’re going to want Drago too. All Iron Fang units are allowed though, giving you some options (and the War Dog!).

IFPs gain a speed boost turn 1, getting them up the field quickly, and the reduced cost of Berserkers allows you to bring a bunch, assuming you own them. If you add Drago (which you obviously should), all those Berserkers get Advance Deployment. Coupled with Vlad’s feat, all those Serkers can be in your opponent’s face FAST. Berserkers and Greylords are amazing with S&P as well.

pVlad’s tier list could be competitive, as the speed of the Serkers (and Uhlans, if you take them; no Markhov though) and sheer number of models and spray attacks (all under S&P) could overwhelm your opponent. It will work best in larger games (50-pt+) as the requirements are extremely tough to meet in lower point games.

eVlad – eVlad’s tiers are fairly easy to meet, although you miss out on some of the better choices for his feat, namely Manhunters, Assassins, and MoWDC. You do get lots of IFPs and Uhlans though, both of which work great with eVlad. eVlad is one of the few casters in Khador whose tiers can be met (and work) at 35 points. The bonuses are decent, the best of which is the extended deployment zone. This is a fast list so the extra distance will put the pressure on your opponent that much quicker.

[GlassJaw]

pIrusk – Meeting the requirements of Irusk’s tiers is fairly straight-forward but does require a lot of models: 2 units of IFPs, 2 MoW units, and 2 jacks. That makes for a solid foundation for an Irusk list but your options are limited after that. Unfortunately, both WG or Kayazy aren’t allowed, which are normally the best targets for Iron Flesh. You can include AKs and Uhlans, however. It should also be no surprise that meeting the tier 4 requirements is extremely tight at 35 points.

The tier bonuses are rather lackluster. The cost of Devastators and Spriggans is reduced slightly, MoWs gain Advance Move, and your deployment zone is extended. MoWs definitely benefit from the tier bonuses the most.

eIrusk – Like normal Irusk, eIrusk’s tiers also require a lot of metal: 2 WGI units, 2 MoW units, and the Behemoth. You can squeeze it into 35 points, but it won’t leave much room for anything else unless you take all min units. There aren’t many other options either: non-character jacks (other than the Behemoth), WG units, Kayazy, and Widows, that’s about it.

The tier bonuses are so-so, the best of which is probably AD on the Kayazy. Getting them into melee as soon as possible is always a good thing. You also get a WGI UA for free and jacks in Irusk’s battlegroup start with 1 focus. I guess they can run for free on turn 1, although if you go second, you could cast Energizer and trample with the Behemoth and maybe catch something in range of its bombards. The extra focus would let you boost and attack or damage roll.

Overall, I’d avoid the Epic Irusk tiers. He benefits from a variety of troops and the tier requirements are too limiting to justify the marginal bonuses.

Karchev – I find Karchev’s tiers pretty intriguing. The biggest hurdle is 2 units of MoWs, which normally wouldn’t be able to keep up with Karchev, but Advance Move mitigates that slightly. MoWs do help with infantry control and provide good targets for Blizzards for extra screening. The tier also lets you take more than one Koldun Lord, and during turns that you cast Unearthly Rage, the Kolduns can give your jacks focus (charging, running, extra attacks), taking some of the load off of Karchev.

The biggest bonus is the reduced cost for jacks, although tier 4 is fairly tough to meet at less than 50 points. At 50+ points, I think a Karchev tier list would be pretty brutal. Tons of armor and wounds, lots of magic attacks and sprays, plenty of room for a variety of jacks (although Beast isn’t allowed), and mechaniks to repair them. Since the tiers don’t allow for a War Dog or mercs (so no Bokur), take a MoW Drakhun as Karchev’s personal bodyguard.

Old Witch – The Old Witch’s tiers have a lot of flavor, and looks like it would be fun to play: lots of wizards, clouds, forests, models with Pathfinder, and very sneaky. Fielding 2 units of Kossites is the most difficult tier requirement to meet, which is quite possibly a deal-breaker for many people.

The allowed models are great at clearing low/mid ARM infantry but there aren’t any tarpit/anti-armor options other than warjacks. Her tiers also lack good targets for Iron Flesh (no Kayazy, IFPs, or WG allowed), although it would make Kossites or Widowmakers (especially in concealment) very difficult to hit. An Old Witch tier list is going to have to rely on jacks to crack armor and jacks. The Behemoth isn’t allowed, which is unfortunate because it makes great use of Augury. Kodiaks, Destroyers, and Spriggans are all good choices in her tier list.

Update: I have had some experience running OW tier 4 at 35 points and found it incredibly frustrating. It has no attrition and really struggles against armor and jacks. Relying on jacks to crack armor puts additional burden on her focus, which she usually wants herself for spells and upkeeps every turn. Not being able to take the Behemoth is a significant loss and the tier bonuses aren't worth the extremely limited tier requirements. My recommendation is to avoid her tier completely.

Strakhov – The biggest obstacle to meet the tier requirements is 2 units of AKs. The effectiveness of AKs is highly debated to begin with so the chance of fielding a Strakhov tier list seems low. However, if you like AKs, the rest of the options are fairly good, allowing you to build a cool list along the “Black Operations” theme: AKs, Assassins, Kossites, and Widowmakers. Aside from the 2 units of AKs, you’ll need to add 2 more units of your choice and 2 non-character jacks (Torch is allowed so you definitely want to bring him along).

The tier bonuses are potentially beneficial, especially in scenario games because you can place trenches on the table (and Advance Deployment helps the AKs get into them quickly). You do get a free Manhunter or Marksman, both of which ignore FA. Having 2 Marksman could be pretty cool. The tier 4 bonus allows models to start the game affected by Strahov’s upkeep spells.

Zerkova (Wolves of Winter) – Her tiers seem like a cross between Karchev and epic Butcher: Doomreavers, Greylords, and Koldun Lords. I know very little about Zerkova to begin with but she doesn’t seem like a jack caster to me so meeting that tier 4 requirement (3 jacks in her battlegroup) feels out of place.

The odd thing about the tier bonuses is that at tier 3, the bonus is only good if jacks are marshaled by a Koldun Lord. Perhaps a couple of marshaled Destroyers is an option. However, as mentioned previously, tier 4 requires 3 jacks in her battlegroup and the tier 4 bonus only affects those jacks. That means to actually make use of the bonuses from each tier, you would need more than 3 jacks: 3 in her battlegroup and at least one marshaled. You need to meet all these requirements for a speed bonus to her jacks on your first turn and a free Doom Reaver UA.

Zerkova (Hunting Wolves, NQ #34) - Zerkova's theme force is unique in that it includes a merc jack (Vanguard) and a merc solo (Gorman) to meet the tier requirements. It's also considered by many to be a huge jump in effectiveness for Zerkova. In my opinion, this tier is now the best way to run her.

The models allowed in this new tier are very good (Assassins, Widowmakers, Greylords) and the tier bonuses are fairly easy to meet (Gorman, unit of Assassins, 3 jacks). Tier 4 is probably the most "difficult" to meet (3 jacks) but considering Vanguards are available, it's not that difficult at all. Plus, the tier 4 bonus is huge: jacks are reduced by 1 point. That means 4 point Vanguards! Only non-character jacks with ranged weapons are available though, plus the Marauder. This still leaves a lot of good choices for Zerkova (Spriggan, Destroyer, Decimator, Marauder).

The Vanguard is a huge boon for Zerkova. Since Khador doesn't have an arc node, she needs to play fairly close to the front and the Vanguard's Shield Guard greatly increases her survivability. Gorman also provides a lot of great tools for Zerkova: his smoke cloud can block LOS, the Rust bomb helps crack armor, and Blind provides an additional debuff. The tier bonuses also increase the FA of Greylords and Assassins, including UAs and extend your deployment an additional 2", which increases her ability in scenarios. All-in-all, this new tier is exactly what Zerkova needed.

[Khador247]

Karchev– I find Karchev’s tiers pretty intriguing. The biggest hurdle is 2 units of MoWs, which normally wouldn’t be able to keep up with Karchev, but Advance Move mitigates that slightly. MoWs do help with infantry control and provide good targets for Blizzards for extra screening. The tier also lets you take more than one Koldun Lord, and during turns that you cast Unearthly Rage, the Kolduns can give your jacks focus (charging, running, extra attacks), taking some of the load off of Karchev.

The biggest bonus is the reduced cost for jacks, although tier 4 is fairly tough to meet at less than 50 points. At 50+ points, I think a Karchev tier list would be pretty brutal. Tons of armor and wounds, lots of magic attacks and sprays, plenty of room for a variety of jacks (although Beast isn’t allowed), and mechaniks to repair them. Since the tiers don’t allow for a War Dog or mercs (so no Bokur), take a MoW Drakhun as Karchev’s personal bodyguard.

Good write up. This is the one I have the most experience with. The only other one I've tried thus far is PButcher. Karchev's list has three big things going for it that I see. First, it has lots of melee between himself, his jacks, and the MOW. The second big thing is mobility. Between TOW and advance move on the MOW this list gets across the table rather quickly. The third thing is sprays, lots and lots of sprays. Sure you'll miss having a Bokur, Reinholdt, Epic Eiryss, and the Wardog but theme lists involve sacrifices. I'll be curious to replace one of my MOW units with the Bombadiers if and when we ever actually get them.

[Evilmerlin]

The best part about eIrusk's tier is being able to field 4 Mortars and a Behemoth. That's 6 bombard rounds landing somewhere your opponent's general direction each turn. 2 of which will probably benefit from Fire for Effect.

[PG_Draxos]

Zerkova– Her tiers seem like a cross between Karchev and epic Butcher: Doomreavers, Greylords, and Koldun Lords. I know very little about Zerkova to begin with but she doesn’t seem like a jack caster to me so meeting that tier 4 requirement (3 jacks in her battlegroup) feels out of place.

The odd thing about the tier bonuses is that at tier 3, the bonus is only good if jacks are marshaled by a Koldun Lord. Perhaps a couple of marshaled Destroyers is an option. However, as mentioned previously, tier 4 requires 3 jacks in her battlegroup and the tier 4 bonus only affects those jacks. That means to actually make use of the bonuses from each tier, you would need more than 3 jacks: 3 in her battlegroup and at least one marshaled. You need to meet all these requirements for a speed bonus to her jacks on your first turn and a free Doom Reaver UA.

Im actually working on a t3 list for her that works on the theory of "run advance deploy and nothing else". the idea behind it is to have destroyers AD and just run the first turn (or if you went second, have them walk) and then start popping bombards at your enemy. also the doom reavers will be AD so they will wreck face on any enemy that gets near. Great for senerio play but i can seem to get it to 35 pts

[OrsusSmash]

Very good "at a glance" write ups! Just wanted to chime in with a little play experience I've had with two of the tiers:

Sorscha1: I actually loved running this theme. Nothing OTT, but it was definitely solid, and I felt like I had a very flexible army. Also, an observation: while Widowmakers are a great anti-troop unit, I ended up going with the Rifle Corps for Sorscha1's theme list.

Reason being: with 3 heavy warjacks (in my case, it was Beast-09, Kodiak, and Destroyer,) I was concerned that I wouldn't have enough troop clearing to deal with voluminous armies. I also don't like having to commit my warjacks to troop clearing if I can help it (unless its a Devastator,) so for me, the Rifle Corps were a natural fit (plus, I had just painted them. ) For what its worth, the Rifle Corps were ultra effective in the list (no surprise there ) and they were able to provide a great mass of early game gunfire to thin out enemy formations, or pick off support. Plus, if worst comes to worst, you can use the Suppressing Fire template to help ward your warjacks from non-multi-wound infantry.

Butcher1: I ended up loving this list, though it took me awhile to come around to it. A few important points for those thinking about using this theme:

- This theme is the definition of attrition. When properly constructed, its very durable, and thanks to Butcher1's buffs, it can smash absolutely anything that it can close with. Your goal is simple: whittle down the enemy's army while holding objectives (if applicable,) and wait for the inevitable moment where your opponent can't afford to put anything more between Butcher1 and their army leader. Apply axe. Shake hands.

- This theme is out-paced/threatened by damn near everything else in the game. You need to learn to maximize positioning, setting up layered counter threats both within your units and between the different models, and you need to be willing to use bait and pressure to force your opponent to engage. Despite its appearances (BIG ANGRY SMASH) against a balanced list and a canny opponent, you need to play smart to have this theme work, but its definitely possible. All you need to do is get a hold of them, and they'll fold neatly in half.

- This theme rocks at taking objectives. Take 1+ Devastators, AD them, then run those suckers into the objective zones (works well going second in SR2010 with the 12" deployment zone.) If your opponent doesn't have some way to slam/push/throw them handy, your warjacks are going to be firmly planted on the objective(s), which gives you the time you need to shuffle your army into place for the 2nd/3rd turn charge of doom.

[GlassJaw]

Great stuff guys! My goal is to round-up the comments every once in a while and incorporate them back into the original write-up.

[Dropkickduffy]

I've had a few games with a Tier 4 Strakhov list to good effect. I might dare say it's even competitive.

Strak
Kodiak
Torch (can alternate w/ Spriggan depending on mood)
Min AK +1 flame thrower (2 units)
Min Kayazy + Underboss
Widowmakers
Free Marksman (or alternate w/ Manhunter)

AD AKs + the two free trenches really helps. Plus, the ability to begin the game w/ Strakhov's spells makes it a lot more cost effective to upkeep Superiority on Torch/Spriggan and Sentry on the Marksman. While AKs are underrated by many, if you can get Assault & Battery off, the three generated attacks more than make up for their meager Rat and average Mat when clearing single- wound troops. Shield wall + trenches make them rather difficult to kill with ranged attacks if you want to play on the defensive. Also, don't be afraid to blow up your own flame throwers as the 5" cont. fire can really screw up infantry.

Kodiak's ability to run for free helps w/ focus efficiency and his two open fists allow for throwing key targets (e.g. Casters, Deathjack, Avatar) for Torch to mop up, although this is less of a necessity if Torch can just charge w/ his Mat 7 Sustained attack. Torch/Spriggan does the standard Overrun shenanigans. Kayazy w/ underboss have the same awesome caster-killing potential on Strak's feat turn. Widowmakers + Marksman plink jacks and clear charge lanes. Bonus: Legion and Menoth fire-themed lists have a hell of a time with this. And besides, it's fluffy!

[Musketeer]

Karchev– I find Karchev’s tiers pretty intriguing. The biggest hurdle is 2 units of MoWs, which normally wouldn’t be able to keep up with Karchev, but Advance Move mitigates that slightly. MoWs do help with infantry control and provide good targets for Blizzards for extra screening. The tier also lets you take more than one Koldun Lord, and during turns that you cast Unearthly Rage, the Kolduns can give your jacks focus (charging, running, extra attacks), taking some of the load off of Karchev.

The biggest bonus is the reduced cost for jacks, although tier 4 is fairly tough to meet at less than 50 points. At 50+ points, I think a Karchev tier list would be pretty brutal. Tons of armor and wounds, lots of magic attacks and sprays, plenty of room for a variety of jacks (although Beast isn’t allowed), and mechaniks to repair them. Since the tiers don’t allow for a War Dog or mercs (so no Bokur), take a MoW Drakhun as Karchev’s personal bodyguard.

I can live with the tier for Special K in a tiers only game. It can be passable in scenario play. In caster kill it is a dog in my opinion.

1. Wow, I can get extra Kholdun lords except... I need to take unit after unit of Greylords to get them.
2. Fast off the line MoW, nice. Two units of them eats a lot of points and... no bombardiers in sight.
3. Wow, tier three gives me cloud effects which I will already be in by the end of my move on turn one and which I would simply create with my Kodiak otherwise.
4. -1 point for jacks. HOORAY, except it is at TIER FOUR!!!! You got to be kidding, Vlad had this as a veritable freebee in his tier for Berserkers and Karchev needs to be loaded down with so much byt the time tier 4 comes up he has a limited jack selection available below 50 points.

I really think K's tier took a fire hose to his rectum. Some disagree but in my opinion it was poorly done.

[PG_ChainGun]

Some experience and thoughts.
1. pButcher's tier list is the most competitive. It gives you much needed speed, being able to reach mid board by the end of the second turn with both your MoW and warjacks. Additionally, PP was generous enough to give us access both to Widowmakers and Kossites so you even have respectable ranged options. Feel free to ignore T4 and get some Destroyers for a deadly fire base. The only down side of this list in my opinion is the lack of mechaniks. Played with it against non Tier lists and won.

2. Karchev. Hmm...you get a speed boost for the MoW and additional Koldun Lords to help Karchev with focus and the greylords for providing concealment and help in crowd control. On the flip side, paying 12 points on MoW just to get in the game...I don't know. I find it useful if you want to play a Sidearms turtle with MoW guarding your flanks but inefficient if you opt for a more fast playstyle.

3. eVlad. I really want to give this one a go. One of the most annoying things for me when playing eVlad is how you run out of focus on your first turn due to the price of his upkeep spells. Getting them for free is a very nice bonus. Additionally, I'm thinking of camping focus on the first round and run eVlad forward, luring my opponent into shooting him and giving me Might of Kings and Blood Trials bonuses. The choice of units and warjacks is decent enough.

[bitmatic]

1. pButcher's tier list is the most competitive. It gives you much needed speed, being able to reach mid board by the end of the second turn with both your MoW and warjacks. Additionally, PP was generous enough to give us access both to Widowmakers and Kossites so you even have respectable ranged options. Feel free to ignore T4 and get some Destroyers for a deadly fire base. The only down side of this list in my opinion is the lack of mechaniks. Played with it against non Tier lists and won.

Actually. If you take it to tier4 you will have 10" deployment + 6" AD + 8" run = 24" - Three heavy jack at the center of the table in turn 1.... Just brilliant in scenario play.
It forces your opponent to react, and by the time they reach the middle of the table, your MOW's (who ran 12" in turn1) will be close enough to be a magnificent second wave.

I think the main downside to a pButcher tier4 is the lack of ranged magic attacks against cryx. Just feels like such a waste to use 4 focus on obliteration to (possibly) take out a single Pistol Wraith.

[whitt37]

pVlad[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]pVlad?s tier list could be competitive, as the speed of the Serkers (and Uhlans, if you take them; no Markhov though) and sheer number of models and spray attacks (all under S&P) could overwhelm your opponent. It will work best in larger games (50-pt+) as the requirements are extremely tough to meet in lower point games.

This is the list I play and it does fine at the lower points as well. The key is not to OD on getting to Tier 4. The real gold in this list in Tier 1 and Tier 2. Being able to poke Focus onto Berserkers without taking any from Vlad is awesome. Being able to poke Focus onto a Berserker well after the control phase when you know where it will be used to the best effect is even better.

You already tagged the S&P synergy, but there's also the benefit of Ice Caging harder to hit models with the GLTs to make the Berserkers MAT of 5 effectively 7 or 9... with S&P on top of that. With a KL putting in one focus, the Berserker can make two P+S 16 (boosted) attacks on the charge against a nearly defenseless opponent that will be left knocked down (head-butt) even if it isn't dead. Worried that knocked down isn't good enough? Add one more Ice cage (go ahead you've got 8-9 models that can do it...) and your opponent will need to burn 2 focus just to get up. heh.

At higher points, I think the Tiered List actually weakens. The rest of the units work so well with the addition of other jacks (Devastator/Spriggan), marshalled to the KLs that hitting Tier 4 at high points seems... less than cool. On the other hand, around 50 points... well, not much wants to deal with a heavy warjack for every 10 points in the list plus all the other killers this list packs.

[GlassJaw]

Heh, cool to see this thread pop up again.

1. pButcher's tier list is the most competitive.

I agree it's one of the top contenders. But as bitmatic mentioned, it seriously lacks in magic attacks. It's great in a two-list format or if your meta doesn't have much Cryx (or at least Cryx without a ton of incorp).

2. Karchev. Hmm...you get a speed boost for the MoW and additional Koldun Lords to help Karchev with focus and the greylords for providing concealment and help in crowd control. On the flip side, paying 12 points on MoW just to get in the game...I don't know. I find it useful if you want to play a Sidearms turtle with MoW guarding your flanks but inefficient if you opt for a more fast playstyle.

It's definitely makes for a defensive/attrition list, and really doesn't shine until you higher point values to maximize the jack discount. It's also very fun and freaks people out when you put that much armor on the table. I've found that people tend to focus on taking out the MoWs, giving you time to put Karchev and his jacks in position.

3. eVlad. I really want to give this one a go. One of the most annoying things for me when playing eVlad is how you run out of focus on your first turn due to the price of his upkeep spells. Getting them for free is a very nice bonus. Additionally, I'm thinking of camping focus on the first round and run eVlad forward, luring my opponent into shooting him and giving me Might of Kings and Blood Trials bonuses. The choice of units and warjacks is decent enough.

Camping focus and running is definitely a cool idea. I've run eVlad a lot non-tier and I've never had a problem casting on turn 1. I usually cast Hand of Fate, Assail, and Transference, which is exactly 7 focus.

[Loki_333]

eVlad ? eVlad?s tiers are fairly easy to meet, although you miss out on some of the better choices for his feat, namely Manhunters, Assassins, and MoWDC. You do get lots of IFPs and Uhlans though, both of which work great with eVlad. eVlad is one of the few casters in Khador whose tiers can be met (and work) at 35 points. The bonuses are decent, the best of which is the extended deployment zone. This is a fast list so the extra distance will put the pressure on your opponent that much quicker.

It's worth noting that his tier is the only way to get 2 units of Calvary with only one caster and w/o mercs. It is a very fast list (for Khador) and I find that I usually want to take both units of Calvary; kinda hard when you only have a single max unit of them.

Keep in mind that with eVlad I'm a bit of a liberal. I like to take a Marauder just for Assail and I personally feel that Uhlans are the best choice for his feat. This is one tier that actually has the local "Molik Bullet" players frustrated.

Edit: I'd give Chaingun a cookie. This thread has potential to be a great resource I think

[mlambie]

what about zerkova's NEW tier list!?

Zerkova (alternate)

Zerkova's new tier list offers a much different way to play this much maligned warcaster. With the addition of kayazy, widowmakers, gorman, and vanguard light warjacks, there's a lot to like about this new tier list. But with the addition of all this stuff, you lose out on doom reavers, fenris, and a lot of your warjack options. For those of us who don't mind picking up a model or 2 that you will only use with one list (or just start mercs!), the zerkova tier easily hits T4 at 35, and seems (based on my first few experiences) to breathe some new life into zerkova. The vanguard offers some much needed survivability, but many will opt out of the tier list to be able to throw in wardogs/ drakhuns/ juggies. Losing everyones favorite watcher target hurts, but the spriggan or decimator fill in nicely, especially at a discount. 6 pt marauders could be interesting as well... On the infantry side, kayazy are great without any support, so perform nicely with zerkova, and can benefit from icy gripped or ice caged foes.

[mlambie]

also, shouldnt this be stickied? i think a lot of new players (and old) would benefit from reading through this, as the tiers helped me a lot to plan my purchases when i was starting.

or at least linked to in the "everything you need to know about khador in one place" thread

[PG_ChainGun]

Edit: I'd give Chaingun a cookie. This thread has potential to be a great resource I think

Thanks mate. I remember feeling disappointed for GlassJaw when people mostly ignored his great post when it was first posted, so when I wanted write my thoughts on Khador tiers I used my search-fu skills and resurrected it

[Teufelhunde]

Well, I know the original post is quite some months old, but for my first post (and hopefully a contributing one) I would like to point out that pVlad's T4 simply says Zerkers/Drago in his battlegroup. I'd consider pairing destroyers with the koldun lords. That way you activate the bearded guys first, use power booster on the destroyers, and enjoy the psudo-focus. Fully boosted to hit and damage.

If you wanna get really rediculous, pop of S&P before using the destroyer and just enjoy the slaughter.

[GlassJaw]

Thanks mate. I remember feeling disappointed for GlassJaw when people mostly ignored his great post when it was first posted, so when I wanted write my thoughts on Khador tiers I used my search-fu skills and resurrected it

No worries, it happens. Thanks for the bump though. I was going to start adding some updates but it kind of disappeared.

How do you get a thread stickied anyway? If it is, I'll definitely update it with the suggestions people have made.

[PG_Draxos]

talk to a mod. also i WANT to run a t4 butcher list but i cant justify buying the number of MoWs needed when i wont use them anywhere else

[GlassJaw]

i WANT to run a t4 butcher list but i cant justify buying the number of MoWs needed when i wont use them anywhere else

You just need 2 units. Get one unit of Demos and one unit of STs. You can use either unit with a variety of casters. You can also use both to meet Karchev's tier requirements.

[PG_Draxos]

while this is true and i like that i am lacking the money to afford them. even as min units so the cost $$$ wise doesnt equal usage gamewise

[Crazy Uncle Doug]

pVlad's T4 list looks like one to counter the "Khador is Slow" argument. With his battlegroup getting Advance Deploy, and the Iron Fangs getting +2 SPD at turn one, his melee forces can, for all practical purposes, run to 14" (his Warjacks running 8, with a 6-inch head start). That's nothing to sneeze at. Don't let yourself get too excited, of course, as at this rate, it'll be easy to outrun your slower units. If your mechaniks can't reach your Warjacks, they're just 2/3-point cannon fodder. I suspect this is why our Greylords get Stealth at turn 1. They'll be more exposed as they will have to run to stay close enough to the Warjacks and IFPs to use spells on your next turn.

I've run numbers and though it's possible to field pVlad's list at 35, it really doesn't take off until 50 points. There you can fit the Uhlans and possibly even the Great Bears. You can even place a non-Berserker Jack with a Koldun Lord as T4 only applies to Vlad's battlegroup. Adding in those factors, you can get in a rapid first strike, then part the waters for the second beat-down.

Hmm. I need to try this.

[Loki_333]

Doug has an interesting point on the Koldun Lord marshaling a jack I'd say that it almost screams for a Destroyer. Although I personally might argue that the mechaniks might be a moot point for use on the berserkers. I look at a 5pt Berserker as a cruise missile under Vlads feat; Fire and forget.

[phoenixflame]

I've used the Epic Butcher Tier 4 list to great effect. While the lack of ranged attacks is rough, the multiple Doomreaver units almost make up for that. The key to this theme is to layer your threats. Your opponent HAS to deal with the Doomreavers, which depending on his list may be difficult. Again, I run them in layers, so if the front row gets killed, the back row may survive. And if they are engaged in melee, all the better for you. Then after the Doomreavers have been dealt with you have Fenris, Epic Butcher and 2 or more heavy warjacks.

This theme requires a little finess, I know this sounds contradictory to normal theories, it can be devastating. As a good friend pointed out to me before, at 35 points this list shines. Most armies can't recover well from taking heavy casulties that can be delivered. However this theme can recover well. Doomreavers die so quickly it's not funny, but when you only need 1 or 2 to make it to the enemy to be cause havoc. More times than not, you will be winning by assassination

[PG_ChainGun]

I've just noticed something interesting. Let's say our units are divided into three categories: ranged (widowmakers, Winter Guard), magic (Greylords) and melee (Iron Fangs, doom Reavers, Kayazy, MoW). Apparently no warcaster is allowed all three types in their tier list. Some examples, from memory:
-Karchev: only magic and melee, no ranged
-pButcher: only ranged and melee, no magic
etc'

Note: While one could argue that winter guard infantry posses melee abilities and Doom Reavers have magical weapons, these units usually don't fill these roles (melee and magic respectively) as efficiently as the dedicated ones.

[Loki_333]

I'll have to take a closer look at the tiered lists because that's an interesting point, ChainGun.

I must say, our magic selection is mighty low with one unit, one solo and a unit attachment for a bunch of nut cases. (Plus you choice of casters)

[Pook]

Interesting note, you can run eVlad t4 at exactly 25 pts. 6 Ulhans, Great Bears, Drago, Wardog, Markov. Charging 19" on feat turn and i think your min threat range is 11" (Great Bears). The list is crazy fast with loads of potential KD.

**Edit: Sorry Drago only has 9.5" threat (still better than usual though)

[trolldrengi]

I've used the Epic Butcher Tier 4 list to great effect. While the lack of ranged attacks is rough, the multiple Doomreaver units almost make up for that. The key to this theme is to layer your threats. Your opponent HAS to deal with the Doomreavers, which depending on his list may be difficult. Again, I run them in layers, so if the front row gets killed, the back row may survive. And if they are engaged in melee, all the better for you. Then after the Doomreavers have been dealt with you have Fenris, Epic Butcher and 2 or more heavy warjacks.

This theme requires a little finess, I know this sounds contradictory to normal theories, it can be devastating. As a good friend pointed out to me before, at 35 points this list shines. Most armies can't recover well from taking heavy casulties that can be delivered. However this theme can recover well. Doomreavers die so quickly it's not funny, but when you only need 1 or 2 to make it to the enemy to be cause havoc. More times than not, you will be winning by assassination

This theme requires basically zero finess. It does benefit from practice... learning to spot 2" reach. I ran it consistently for a year, at GenCon Hardcore 2010 (went 3-1 w/168 AP), at Templecon 2011 (went undefeated in the team tournament and won with this list in round I used it in the finals), at MATT 2010. It's a bulldozer, with a small selection of bad matchups (eHaley gunlines, anyone?). It plays great at board control scenarios, it can deal with infantry swarms and heavy armor alike, and in a pinch it can deliver a vicious caster kill.

The mistakes I see people make when playing the eButcher tier are:
1. Playing it at tier 4 (at under 75 pts). It's not worth ~12 doom reavers to take 1 more warjack... with little real use and a negligible tier benefit. The warjacks are largly superfluous in this list.
2. Using more than one Greylord UA. The UA is cute as a flavor piece, but honestly they just eat up points that could be better filled by more doom reavers. I sometimes run one. He gets to hang out with the unit I designate as the 'bodyguard' unit for eButch.
3. Not using enough doom reavers. I run 6 units, a berserker and Fenris at 35, and 7 units, 2 manhunters, Yuri, Fenris and a Marauder at 50. The Marauder is a "just because" piece, and I like the way my paintjob came out.
4. Using eButch to do anything. Seriously, the best way to set yourself up to lose with this tier, is by trying something cute with eButch and leaving him exposed. Most games he throws Fury on Yuri and goes to hide in the corner while the doom reavers kill everything.

It's not that this can be devastating... it is completely brutal. The only list I've had a regular problem with is eHaley with all shooty. Harbinger, eDenny and a few others can present special challenges, but they are not nearly insurmountable.

-- Tom

ps. Cagey tactic #1, also called "why I don't need Silence": When charging in with a unit of doom reavers in a situation where you think they are likely to end up destroying their target and berserking on each other, put the unit leader in a position where he will be an eligible target for the berserking model. Attack him with the first berserk attack you're forced to make when no enemy models will be available. When you remove the leader, field promote the berserking model to be the leader. Models having been field promoted cannot make attacks on the turn they were promoted. Berserking complete. The above takes a little forethought, but it isn't too hard when you're charging the better part of a unit at a single hard target, and you don't want them killing off 4 friends after the target is dealt with.

[Ender_Melchior]

I just ordered two units of Kossites, and will probably pick up another unit or two of Ternions. I'll be giving the Old Witches tier list a try. It seems like it could be crazy fun. Especially with the free upkeeps? Heck yea.

[PG_Draxos]

Having run an OW T4 once before all i can say is that it needs either sencerio play or you to be amazing with her on a gencon level.

[GlassJaw]

I just ordered two units of Kossites, and will probably pick up another unit or two of Ternions. I'll be giving the Old Witches tier list a try. It seems like it could be crazy fun. Especially with the free upkeeps? Heck yea.

I abhor her tier list with a passion. I was very excited about it because it is super-fluffy but it almost made me put the OW away permanently. It just plain sucks. It's super-squishy and has no way to deal with armor other than jacks. The problem with that is the OW is a focus hog and has no way to buff or speed up her jacks other than focus.

It didn't work for me at all.

[Ender_Melchior]

The way I play, I tend to rely on 'jacks to crack heavy armor, so I don't have a problem with her taking a lot of 'jacks. It seems like her list might require me to pick up Berserkers. Coupled with a Kodiak, that could mitigate part of the focus problem.

Yes, she is a focus hog, but if I run the tier list, I'll at least start with all upkeeps in play, with the AoS on Scrapjack, and Iron Flesh on herself, and Weald Secrets on either the Destroyer or someone else.

[PG_LonelyMonk]

Thanks for the advice... My new painting project is Karchev T4 50 pt and more for options...

http://lonelymonk.wordpress.com/2011...hus-it-begins/

Karchev? I find Karchev?s tiers pretty intriguing. The biggest hurdle is 2 units of MoWs, which normally wouldn?t be able to keep up with Karchev, but Advance Move mitigates that slightly. MoWs do help with infantry control and provide good targets for Blizzards for extra screening. The tier also lets you take more than one Koldun Lord, and during turns that you cast Unearthly Rage, the Kolduns can give your jacks focus (charging, running, extra attacks), taking some of the load off of Karchev.

The biggest bonus is the reduced cost for jacks, although tier 4 is fairly tough to meet at less than 50 points. At 50+ points, I think a Karchev tier list would be pretty brutal. Tons of armor and wounds, lots of magic attacks and sprays, plenty of room for a variety of jacks (although Beast isn?t allowed), and mechaniks to repair them. Since the tiers don?t allow for a War Dog or mercs (so no Bokur), take a MoW Drakhun as Karchev?s personal bodyguard.

[GlassJaw]

Thanks for the advice... My new painting project is Karchev T4 50 pt and more for options...

I saw that! Very cool. I approve of your choice. I'll be watching your progress.

My original plan was to bring it to Templecon for the Hardcore tournament but that didn't happen. Oh well.

I also wrote a semi battle report for one of the games I played. Let me see if I can find it...ahh, here it is:

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...hlight=Karchev

[Grizwald]

I've just noticed something interesting. Let's say our units are divided into three categories: ranged (widowmakers, Winter Guard), magic (Greylords) and melee (Iron Fangs, doom Reavers, Kayazy, MoW). Apparently no warcaster is allowed all three types in their tier list. Some examples, from memory:
-Karchev: only magic and melee, no ranged
-pButcher: only ranged and melee, no magic
etc'

The new Zerkova tier list does just that. Kayazy, Greylords, Widowmakers, all in one neat package.

Although at this point the magic category is a bit underwhelming because it has 1 unit and 1 solo in it. But there's always room for more Greylords

[PG_Draxos]

I would like to thank Mod_Not Dice for stickying this thread.

[Ector]

GlassJaw, when I consider using a theme force, I have to evaluate three parts:

a). Limitations. If they are too harsh, and we cannot use the minis that are very good for the caster, that's very bad, especially if there are no real alternatives. For instance, Old Witch really needs Behemoth, and her theme force should provide HUGE bonuses to repay for its prohibition.
b). Requirements. Would you take the required forces willingly? If you would, then the requirements are logical. Unfortunately, they are often far from logic...
c). Advantages. What do you get for following the Limitations and Requirements? Sometimes the gain can be measured in points, but some forces allow the unique things that cannot be bought by points - like unlimited Doom Reavers, second WGI UA or even Vanguards.

Unfortunately, your overview often misses the mentioned information, or it's hard to decipher. So I've decided to make my own

pSorscha
Limitations: average. You will miss War Dog, but there are some good options. You will definitely miss Behemoth...
Requirements: logical until T4. She really needs some Mortars, and WGDS is always welcome.
Advantages: free Kovnik Joe, Advance Move for some jacks, +1 on your starting roll.
Overall: T4 is generally impractical, since pSorcha cannot feed 3 jacks, but T3 is quite playable.

eSorscha
Limitations: light-average. Same as pSorscha, but you also have Man-o-Wars and Manhunters.
Requirements: even T2 is a bit strange, since WGI without UA isn't as good (and the UA has FA 1).
Advantages: cheaper Kodiaks, placing 4" forests on the table, Advance Move for Man-o-Wars.
Overall: I don't think eSorscha needs Man-o-Wars, so it would be better to stop at T2. If you actually planned to use only the theme force troops, why not get cheaper Kodiak and some forests? Unfortunately, having to field a WGI unit without UA ruins the idea.

pButcher
Limitations: light. You have Winterguards, Widowmakers, Man-o-Wars and Manhunters... and even War Dog!
Requirements: logical for T2, and quite logical for T3. T4 is a bit steep and should be used only in 50+ games.
Advantages: cheaper and faster MoW Shocktroopers for T2, redeploying Yuri with Manhunters for T3 (if you play T3, you should have them). Benefit of T4 isn't worth the price IMHO.
Overall: Excellent T2 and T3, if you like MoW:ST and Manhunters. Butcher really needs some good cover, and Yuri's brigade is always good, especially with redeploying.

eButcher
Limitations: harsh! Besides Doomies, only Manhunters/Yuri and War Dog are allowed.
Requirements: absolutely logical for T2, more-or-less logical for T3 and very strange for T4 (why would you need jacks if you can add unlimited number of cheap Doomies?)
Advantages: unlimited cheap Doomies! T4 advantage doesn't worth the price IMHO.
Overall: T2 or T3 is a famous Doomies theme force. It can win a tournament if the meta isn't prepared.

pVlad
Limitations: average-harsh. Only one good combat infantry unit type is available. Solos are also limited.
Requirements: hardly logical. Berserkers, IF and Koldun Lords aren't going to mix into a good army.
Advantages: cheap Berserkers, some speed for IFP.
Overall: not very good, but interesting. A horde of Berserkers can win sometimes, but usually it's easily stopped by infantry.

eVlad
Limitations: harsh! Only Iron Fangs and Widowmakers, plus War Dog.
Requirements: quite logical for T3, but hardly for T4.
Advantages: more Uhlans, cheaper Uhlans, larger deployment zone (T4)
Overall: great if you like (and have!) two units of Uhlans, and know how to use them.

pIrusk
Limitations: average. A lot of good units and solos are available, but, alas, not WGI. Behemoth is allowed.
Requirements: hardly logical. Normally you aren't going to use two IFP units or MoW units with pIrusk.
Advantages: very strange. Your two IFP units get nothing, your Man-o-Wars get Advance Move, and you get cheaper Devastators and Spriggans.
Overall: I wouldn't recommend even T2 here. T1 itself isn't worth the limitations, IMHO.

eIrusk
Limitations: light-average. You will have a good choice of infantry and solos, plus Behemoth.
Requirements: logical until T2, but T3 forces you to take a Kayazy unit without UA, which is stupid.
Advantages: unlimited Kayazy (not very good since Underboss is still FA 1), more WG guns, free and *extra* UA for WGI, Advance Move for Kayazy. T4 bonus is little, but the requirement isn't difficult at all.
Overall: I'd recommend only T2, since that's the only way to have two WGI units with UAs. Considering eIrusk's abilities, they are going to be pretty mean.

Karchev
Limitations: harsh! Nothing besides MoWs, Greylords and Mechaniks. Behemoth is allowed, though.
Requirements: illogical. Why should Karchev need MoWs or Greylord Ternions?
Advantages: more Koldun Lords, speed for MoWs, some minor clouds, and (at T4) the main prize: all warjacks become cheaper!
Overall: I don't recommend this theme force for 35 points and below. Karchev doesn't need MoWs, and their cost greatly outweight the benefits. But for 50+ points you can really save a lot to think about it...

Old Witch
Limitations: average-harsh. Only Widowmakers and Yuri/Manhunters are available among the popular choices.
Requirements: illogical. Too much Kossites and Greylords.
Advantages: free Yuri and some extra forests. That's all!
Overall: forget about this. OW really, really needs Behemoth, which is prohibited.

Zerkova
Limitations: harsh.
Requirements: stupid. Having 3 jacks in her BG and two Koldun Lords without marshalling?
Advantages: minimal.
Overall: play this if you really want to provide an extra advantage to your opponent

Strakhov
Limitations: average-harsh. At least you have access to one good infantry unit and snipers.
Requirements: not very logical. Assault Kommandos really hurt.
Advantages: some trenches, and extra Widowmaker Marksman.
Overall: if you're a big fan of AKs, try this. If you aren't, forget about it.

Zerkova's new theme force
Limitations: original. Most of our best forces are prohibited, but there are Gorman and Vanguard!
Requirements: logical. You would take the required things anyway... are there better choices?
Advantages: bigger deployment zone and... all jacks are cheaper at T4!!!
Overall: this would be much better with Mechaniks, but they are prohibited. Taking a horde of cheap jacks without Mechaniks is unwise... unless you're playing a horde of Berzerkers, but they are also prohibited. This force looks great only at the first sight.

[SpiralingCadaver]

I'd say Zerkova's new theme is very solid, at least at medium-small games.

Vanguards are exactly what she needed, to be able to run where she needs to be w/o access to an arc node (and Gorman's smoke can help), and, while you don't have a lot of armor cracking potential, you still have access to Spriggans, and Gorman may be the lynch pin to your offense, as he can compensate for low accuracy or P+S. Combined with greylords, and Zerkova's own spells, it means you have enough options to up your accuracy and potentially your armor. Your units all function on their own or support your other units, so you're not shooting yourself in the foot by not getting any buffs from Zerkova.

It isn't perfect, but it's pretty solid. I'm probably only going to be fielding Zerkova in her theme list now.

[Leo_the_Rat]

I find it a lot of fun to run pButcher at the 35 point level.
Beserker, Juggernaught, Kodiak = 21
2 Min units ST = 10
Yuri, Manhunter x3, Dog =10
Total 41 - 6 = 35
The real fun is being able to Advance Deploy the 3 Jacks with the Man hunters and Yuri. And if you go 2nd you can even rearrange the Solos to a more advantageous position.