Thagrosh, The Messiah MKII Discussion

[blitzmonkey]

I don't claim to have a monopoly on this discussion, but as he is my fav lock, I looked at him and did a comparison from his MKI rules.

The first change is that his Spray Template is now a SP 10. Awesome

Glory of Everblight just changed name to Manifest Destiny and now affects models in his battlegroup.

Black Chasm changed to Scourge. It went from a 4 inch AOE to a 3 inch and lost a point of POW.

Unnatural Aggression changed to moving during maintenance phase and must move towards the nearest enemy model, as well as triggering on damage of any kind.

The most disappointing thing of the Big Guy is that he has the fewest beast points of the casters.

On a side note, he DID lose Hubris. Not that it was that difficult to deal with, but still nice.

[Shadowspite]

also, Scourge always knocks over, Black Chasm only knocked over when damaging the model, so a change, not really a buff or nerf. I'm honestly surprised he kept blood spawn.

other than that, he stayed pretty much the same.

oh, his breath is now critical Stationary, not critical frost (have to forfeit movement) so thats better against some things, but now it can be shaken...

[Loveless]

oh, his breath is now critical Stationary, not critical frost (have to forfeit movement) so thats better against some things, but now it can be shaken...

Well, that's one less Focus point for a Warcaster and one more Fury for a Warbeast/Warlock to spend. I don't mind shake off - it costs resources, and I enjoy making my opponents pay

[Konradexius]

Well, that's one less Focus point for a Warcaster and one more Fury for a Warbeast/Warlock to spend. I don't mind shake off - it costs resources, and I enjoy making my opponents pay

And more importantly than that, it lets you charge in with a Carnivean or Typhon and trash whatever was frozen with auto-hits.

[Zerosoul]

Epic Thagrosh is still pretty amazing. His lack of beast points kind of hurts, but it's workable. He still looks like a -very- strong caster to me. I'm just curious to see if GoE...err...Manifest Destiny is still as amazing a spell without Seraphs.

[Neutralyze]

hey now, one seraph isnt that bad........

[Hjelmen0]

And more importantly than that, it lets you charge in with a Carnivean or Typhon and trash whatever was frozen with auto-hits.

Exactly! Stationary and KD is not for denial anymore, it's for setup. And even if it is a crit, it's a damned tasty one!

[Lazlo]

I don't mind his low warbeast points. He's still a pretty awesome fella, and he has the chance to get a free lesser, so that mitigates his low points somewhat.

[blitzmonkey]

Only got one game in with him tonight. The interaction between Manifest Destiny and Dragon Storm is still lethal. S&P from Vlad is 4 as we know, but it affects his entire army. The problem comes in that it only affect warbeasts, but with Thag, I only mainly run beasts.

[Necra-Chi]

He looks like our best warlock to me. I just can't decide what to put with him. he's a beatstick, he supports beasts, and all of his spells are awesome.

I can't believe he got scourge.

[blitzmonkey]

This is what I did tonight:

Typhon
Crex
Terraph
Raek
Shredder
Harrier
Forsaken
Shepard

Did fairly well. The forsaken stays near Thag to collect fury while the shepard goes with the Crex/Terraph to help pull of fury.

[tonyzahn]

About the spray attack:

It's both fire and cold damage now. If you spray a unit of assault commandos, they still take damage since they don't ignore the cold? but they don't suffer from continuous fire?

[Necra-Chi]

Good question

I think it does nothing because it has damage type fire.

[Spleen Hammer]

Does Thags himself still benefit from Manifest Destiny? I forget the exact wording of "battlegroup" and thus do not know if he is, indeed, part of his own battlegroup.

[Lazlo]

Warcasters are part of their own battlegroup. Haven't read that in the Hordes book, but I can't imagine it changed.

[Lazlo]

Good question

I think it does nothing because it has damage type fire.

I think it hurts them because it has damage type cold.

[Necra-Chi]

Read the AK's rules. If it says you take no damage or effects from an attack with damage type : fire then it doesn't matter that E-Thag's spray also does cold.

[chrsjxn]

pg 8, under Immunities:

If the damage has multiple damage types, a model that is immune to any of the types will not suffer the damage.

[King Markov]

They should take damage as the damage type is cold and fire and they are not immune to cold but they would be immune to the continuos fire effect though. That's what is nice about EThag is it does 2 types of damage, note that some like the Druids get Elemental Immunity so they would not take any damage at all

slow computer I guess they would be immune so giving it 2 types of damage makes it less effective as a weapon and that would go for any weapon not just his I think I will sugest that they change it and remove one or the other

[tonyzahn]

I've never liked the MK2 damage type rules, and this is a good example why. It's never a positive thing to have typed damage, and it looks like dual-typed damage even less so.

[moz]

The dual damage type vs. immunities is definitely counter-intuitive.

[alchahest]

at first glance, "awesome, he freeze AND burns dudes!" is very exciting

unless they're wearing a parka, then he doesn't do either. PG_moz is very correct - counterintuitive. I can understand if it's a balance thing, but it just seems very backwards to me.

[Primus]

The dual damage type vs. immunities is definitely counter-intuitive.

It's definitely going to factor into my feedback after this weekend's fights. As written right now, dual-typed damage is only flufftastic, which is odd considering how much PP has done to remove fluffy rules.

I'm thinking that this kind of slipped through the cracks, because AFAIK Thag2 is the only unit in the entirety of WM and Hordes that has dual-typed damage.

[Konradexius]

I think that the field test would be a good time to incorporate elemental weakness - winter troll vs fire anyone?

Because as near as I can tell, the real only point of elemental typing right now is for Cygnar Storm army hijinks.

[blitzmonkey]

It's definitely going to factor into my feedback after this weekend's fights. As written right now, dual-typed damage is only flufftastic, which is odd considering how much PP has done to remove fluffy rules.

I'm thinking that this kind of slipped through the cracks, because AFAIK Thag2 is the only unit in the entirety of WM and Hordes that has dual-typed damage.

I could see them making it damage type FIRE and then having just the CRITICAL effect of ICE, but it is still pretty hokey imo. I know they are trying to simplify the rules, but this needs some kind of re-wording as it is.

[Aries37]

The dual damage i fine. It's meant to act as balance. Do you realise how powerful a crit stationary 10" spray is? On someone with rat 5 + manifest destiny? It would hose everything. Now at least several units have immunity to it.

I'm liking the look of this guy, I think he's going to be my first warlock for hordes.

[blitzmonkey]

The dual damage i fine. It's meant to act as balance. Do you realise how powerful a crit stationary 10" spray is? On someone with rat 5 + manifest destiny? It would hose everything. Now at least several units have immunity to it.

I'm liking the look of this guy, I think he's going to be my first warlock for hordes.

The Manifest destiny isn't as bad as you think. We have to drop the LOWEST. Had a situation last night in which I boosted to hit. Rolled to 3s, a 4, and a 6. Had to drop one of the threes. Lost the crit effect.

[dorsai2008]

Played EThag (with CREX and shredders) last night in a quick 15 pt game against the Butcher and his 3 heavies.

Manifest Destiny is still brilliant and the dragon blood topped with spiny growth works well to beat Khador 20 ARM. The reduction of the shredder ARM was significant. However the shredders still shone under rabid and manifest Destiny. My army tore through a Juggernaut, Beast 09 and disabled another Juggernaut however a failed critical freeze meant that Butcher charged and annihilated EThag. CREX works well to, the ability to buy bite attacks now is great.

EThag is still great fun to field and likes to run beat heavy. Looking forward to some bigger games now.

[Bearded Dragon]

Had a situation last night in which I boosted to hit. Rolled to 3s, a 4, and a 6. Had to drop one of the threes. Lost the crit effect.

Having an extra die and dropping the lowest still increases your chance of a critical overall. Just think that the Manifest Destiny die was one of the 3's if if makes you feel better.

Also, of course he has lower warbeast points. That's because he was over 100 points in mark 1. He's akin to Terminus and Harbinger.