Bronzeback and Gladiator

[Scalpel]

First up I want to say I again I really don't like the changes to the Paingivers and Bronzeback. However if this is the direction PP are going to take, then I'll have to accept that.

So after a weekend of testing the Bronzeback and Gladiator (both on their own and together), these would be my suggestions.

- Gladiator loses Follow Up
- Gladiators Animus is returned to the previous version of Train Wreck. (i.e. Follow up and boosted Slam Rolls).
+ Gladiator gains +1 SPD.
+ Gains Stampede

~ Bronzeback's Leadership changes to either: A Titan can charge/slam/trample for Free ... or they may cast their animus for free ... or any small bonus where you don't feel like it's needed to make other titan's good.

I'm still unsure what to suggest for Berserk ... part of me thinks it's pointless without Overtake, so remove it ... and the other part thinks giving him Overtake would be too much for 10pts ... either way it needs to be looked at.

Anyway ... the reasons for these suggestions are to make the gladiator viable on its own, and to make the Leadership bonus minor and not to feel like it's required.

I'm still not 100% happy with even the above suggestions but I feel they would at least make both beasts viable on their own, and when combined still competitive.

[DeathnGlory]

Solid suggestions. It is weird how much I feel has been lost by the SPD buff of pain givers.

[planescapedm]

I really love the gladiator's animus and the gladiator as a whole. I'm all for tweaking the bronzeback though. I'd like to give the +2 SPD back to paingivers and get rid of rush.

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Why does everybody want to get rid of Rush!? Keep it, and let us have something good on a 10pt BEAST. Man, I'm really happy with how the titans turned out. I mean, I only played how many years without it before? If you can't figure out how to play without Rush you haven't been playing Skorne long enough. Now, that we have access to it, I'm happy. Paingivers do need to return the plus 2" to movement though. Otherwise we're much slower than we were, and we lose all the mobility that we supposedly had.

Draekon

[planescapedm]

Why does everybody want to get rid of Rush!? Keep it, and let us have something good on a 10pt BEAST. Man, I'm really happy with how the titans turned out. I mean, I only played how many years without it before? If you can't figure out how to play without Rush you haven't been playing Skorne long enough. Now, that we have access to it, I'm happy. Paingivers do need to return the plus 2" to movement though. Otherwise we're much slower than we were, and we lose all the mobility that we supposedly had.

Draekon

You're not going to get rush and the paingivers +2 inches of movement. It's not that people dislike rush it's that people want to get +2 inches of movement without taking a 10 point alpha.

[Cronix]

I am happy with Gladiator and Bronzeback they are fine. The only thing that needs to be removed is beserk and replace it with breaktrough ability. Something like this:

Rampage - When this model destroys one or more enemy models with an attack, immediately after the attacks are resolved this this model can make a full advance. Rampage triggers once per turn.

[Razhem]

Campaign for the coming back of old enrage, but don't cry again when the fallout comes.

And let us not castrate the utility of the BB leadership ability, we already get all the free charges and slams we could ever want.

[Cronix]

You're not going to get rush and the paingivers +2 inches of movement. It's not that people dislike rush it's that people want to get +2 inches of movement without taking a 10 point alpha.

They can return it but must come with a great side effect, the old version was to good. I have tought about different versions and how to balanced without making it complicated so did my brother, I think this version would be verry balanced comes with a heavy price. But current version is fine.

[viperidae99]

From the games you've played this weekend Scalpel, what problems did you have playing the Bronzeback and Gladiator,
together and separately, specifically?

How did they prove they weren't worth their points?

[planescapedm]

Paingiver Ideas... I would also like to ask, how long does Enrage last? Does
the +2 STR benefit me during my opponents turn? I wasn't sure if the
wording meant that the free charge/slam/trample was only for this turn or if
the +2 STR was also.

Paingiver Beast Handlers
Skorne Unit

LEADER & GRUNTS
SPD???STR???MAT???RAT??.DEF??..ARM???CMD
6?????4????.5???.??3???..13???..11?.?.??.8

FA: 2
Point Cost: Leader & 3 Grunts: 2
Leader & 5 Grunts: 3
Base Size: Small Base

LEADER & GRUNTS
Anatomical Precision - When this model ʼs melee damage roll fails to exceed the ARM of the living model hit, that model suffers 1 damage point.
Beast Manipulation - A warbeast can be affected by only one Beast Manipulation special action each turn.
?Condition (★Action) - RNG 3. Target friendly Faction warbeast. If the warbeast is in range, place any number of fury points on or remove any number of fury points from it.
?Control (★Action) - RNG 3. Target friendly Faction warbeast. If the warbeast is in range, it gains +1 MAT and +1 DEF for one round.
?Enrage (★Action) - RNG 3. Target friendly Faction warbeast. If the warbeast is in range, it gains +2 STR and must charge or make a slam or trample power attack without being forced during its next activation this turn.
?Medicate (★Action) - RNG 3. Target friendly Faction warbeast. If the warbeast is in range, it heals d3 damage points. A warbeast can be affected by Medicate only once per turn.
?Push (★Action) - RNG 3. Target friendly Faction warbeast. If the warbeast is in range, it gains +2 SPD and can run without being forced during its next activation this turn.

WEAPONS [LEADER & GRUNTS]
Barbed Whip [1x] (None) POW: 3 P+S: 7
Reach
Inflict Pain - When it hits a warbeast with this weapon, this model can place 1 fury point on or remove 1 fury point from the warbeast.

[Tionas]

I think 5 abilities is a little much. I like them as they are. the only thing that the enrage was "neccesary" for was the titans. and even then, there was only 2 that were going to be out charging things: Gladiators and Bronzebacks. Bronzebacks got the ability to Self-buff speed, and the Gladiators are now dependant on spells and abilities. I've no probelms with this. I like the way it works. and I think that the Bronzeback being the buffing beast is ok. I'd rather have an Auto-include beast than an auto-invlude unit, overall.

[AlGouhti]

I realy think Hyper Agressive would be more apropriat on the Bronzeback than Berzerk. and change the Leadership abillity from +1 SPD, to Hyper Agressive.

and lose the 5 SPD on the BB it looks wrong.

[Scalpel]

From the games you've played this weekend Scalpel, what problems did you have playing the Bronzeback and Gladiator,
together and separately, specifically?

How did they prove they weren't worth their points?

The Bronzeback on its own is probably worth 10pts when compared to other Warbeasts. It has 3 attacks at P+S 16/1, MAT 6, and ARM 19 with 30 wounds.

Berserk is almost wasted, because unless I've just trampled if I'm going for anything other than the enemy caster or Jack/beast ... I feel I've wasted his damage output.

He still goes down faster than I expect him too ... so still think he should be 32 Wounds.

Other than some really minor tweaks (i.e. HP and/or Berserk) with that Animus now and SPD 5, he is up there with the big boys.

---

The BB & TG combo, works fine too ... in fact probably a little too good. Also there is very powerful way to use both Animi's on the TG in one turn.

Cast the BB's animus on the TG.
TG is forced to Slam (or if you have PG's Enrage him)... if done correctly you should have 10" Slam move.
Due to the new MK2 casting rules, you can then cast the TG's animus on himself before you make the attack roll, but after the move. Therefore getting the +2" movement, pathfinder, and all the slam bonuses.

---

The Titan Gladiator on his own, (and I used him with Zaal and Hexeris) doesn't work for me personally. A max SPD 4+3" Charge/Slam is one of the slowest about. It's probably even worse than Primal.
Yeah Skorne had 9" Slamming/Charging Titans, but Trolls had 10" Heavies with the Axer, and Legion/Circle both had 9" without any buffs ... Legion had Slipstream and Circle had woods to hide in.

I then used him with pMorghoul but all the issues with Morghoul came to the surface ... I slammed a model so far that if I had followed up I was going to be outside his control area ... damm 6's!! How I cried and my opponent lol'ed! ;-)

Finally I used him with eMakeda ... and yeah he works fine. Although that's part because I still think Leash is too good for a spell (should be 4" and no up to its SPD) and I could only keep thinking ... for 2 more points I could have a BB or for +3, Molik! Both I'd pay more for with her.

---

Getting the charges on the targets when you want them is major plus in this game, and the TG is just too slow compared to any other Warbeast we have. And if someone mentions Khador 'Jack's I swear I will punch something

I see myself running most lists with the BB if things stay the same ... he just is great value at 10pts, and he really is our main heavy hitter, as he should be. It's just I can't see taking the TG without the BB ... so for me that's really 50pts games or more.

Rampage - When this model destroys one or more enemy models with an attack, immediately after the attacks are resolved this this model can make a full advance. Rampage triggers once per turn.

Wow ... that seems a bit broken ... a 10" Charge, then another 5" move ....

[Deathraven]

What about if grandslam on the gladiator was changed from adding 2 inches to the slam distance, to +2 movement when slamming?
That way the gladiator could slam 9" on his own but wouldn't be as powerful as the old paingivers enrage as he wouldn't have the charge option. Also his followup wouldn't be as far due to losing the +2 so in the end he would travel the same distance but have a slightly longer threat range.
If that makes his threat range too good with the BB, then I'd also suggest dialing back his leadership to granting stampede.

[Scalpel]

I don't always want to slam stuff ..... rather not have the +2" movement on slams only.

[Captain Badtouch]

Personally I think the Gladiator is fine as is at the moment , I've gotten about 7 caster kills off follow up recently , the problem I have is rush is not worth losing +2 spd on enrage , as not not only do I have to take a Bronzeback to maintain our old threat range but I can't use it on as many models in a turn unless I use a few shamans just to spam it. I would prefer to see the Bronzeback get an animus something like this:
Headstrong- range 6 cost-2
Target model gains pathfinder on charge , slam or trample attacks. Target model must charge , slam or trample this activation at no fury cost.
Then have enrage go back to its previous form of +2 str and +2 move.

[Deathraven]

I really don't think enraged's movement bonus and rush on the BB were a direct trade in the dev's minds. If I'm wrong, sure trade them back but I doubt it's that simple.

[Pantheon]

It was not that simple.

In exchange for the paingiver and Tyrant nerf.....we gained ground on almost every other model in the faction.

If the price of variety is the paingiver's speed boost so be it.

To be honest it adds to the rhinodon's niche. If I want a cheap heavy to go solo I take the rhino. If I have more points the Bronzeback is a great buy at 10. If I want to melee heavies the BB and Glad work very well together.

Would I take a glad solo....prob not. But then we have other choices then...and I'm ok with that.


If any model suffered form this its the savage...who lost the most from the speed loss IMHO

[Citizen_Nutter]

Unless I'm mistaken the Glad is still quite nice with casters who can give speed buffs and cover its greatest weakness. So its a beast whos stronger with some casters now and...well dont most armies have some beasts stronger with certain casters?

Enrage is gone forever methinks. Kaput.

If you want a more middle road between the Titan and Rhinodon, perhaps look to help the Rhinodon maintain a stable "faster than a Titan, but less of a beats muncher" role.

[ketsugami]

Glad solo is definitely viable with some casters -- you've got Abuse with pMorghoul, Savagery with pMakeda, Road to War AND Leash with eMakeda, so that's three casters at least who can speed him along without the BB. He can also be useful in a "counter-charge" capacity; threat range is vital, but it is not the be-all and end-all of a model.

I think all five heavies have a role now -- a big improvement over when I would always reach for MK first. You can build an alpha-strike army with eMakeda and the Bronzeback if you want to, but that's not the only viable build.

[Scalpel]

Glad solo is definitely viable with some casters -- you've got Abuse with pMorghoul, Savagery with pMakeda, Road to War AND Leash with eMakeda, so that's three casters at least who can speed him along without the BB.

pMorghoul only gives back what we lost with the Paingivers.

pMakeda only gives him an 8" Run and attacks ... which means no slams.

eMakeda works really well. However she works really well with all the Heavies, especially Molik.

Just because some casters can improve on the Warbeasts, they improve all warbeasts ... in fact the BB works better with all the above casters than the TG.

Please try and balance stuff on their own merit, but just keep in mind any broken combo's with Warlocks. I should would wan't to take the Gladiator with most Warlocks, not just a few.

[Razhem]

pMakeda only gives him an 8" Run and attacks ... which means no slams.

Allows it to advance 9"

[Moonblade]

pMakeda only gives him an 8" Run and attacks ... which means no slams.

But double attacks and Grab & Smash?

[Dolomyte]

Please try and balance stuff on their own merit, but just keep in mind any broken combo's with Warlocks. I should would wan't to take the Gladiator with most Warlocks, not just a few.

No, I don't think we should. I think we should want to take the gladiator in certain lists, which can involve multiple warlocks. but I do not want it to be Molik Karn 2.0. The autoinclude beast for every situation. It works beautifully in its current incarnation as a counter strike model. (alpha with certain combo's)

[Pickles]

No, I don't think we should. I think we should want to take the gladiator in certain lists, which can involve multiple warlocks. but I do not want it to be Molik Karn 2.0. The autoinclude beast for every situation.

Leave that role for the Bronzeback

[Citizen_Nutter]

Its not that he "only works" with certain casters, its just some casters will bodge his weakness up. Its not an "omg" weakness its just he now needs to be played differently.

No model can and will always be able to stand on its own two feet. The military still uses infantry alongside tanks (really dodgy analogy yes).

I just dont see the Titan gaining anymore speed. Ok I'll admit, losing the Bronzeback Leadership so its merely fluff (Titans can breakdance down the frontlines) and all Titans gain a natural 5" movement. The downside is now Rush is quite a net gain and every scarier with our movement based Locks.

I personally, would lament the loss of Rush now that we have it, which is perhaps another reason why some of us are hesitant to expect the Titans speed to go up because I foresee there WILL be a cost. Perhaps again we need to look elsewhere (Basilisks maybe, Rhinodon) to get a faux movement style ability.

[Scalpel]

No, I don't think we should. I think we should want to take the gladiator in certain lists, which can involve multiple warlocks. but I do not want it to be Molik Karn 2.0.

You seem to think there are only 2 options, an auto-include Warbeast or one's that only work for certain warlocks.

Why can't a warbeast be balanced enough that it is viable option for most Warlocks, instead of just a few.

The problem is you all say he is fine with pMorghoul, and either Makeda (and yeah soory a 9" move with the new pMakeda) .... but this is the point you are missing ... both the BB and Molik are better Warbeasts with those casters. In fact almost all warbeasts get better with those Warlocks.

What's better than a 9" charge or Full Advnace? A 10-12" one .. that's what!

Yeah for 25pts games you might have room for a 10/11pt heavy and have to take the TG .... but in 35-50pts you won't take it over the BB, unless you are taking both of them.

That's the problem right there, once you are past the 15-25pts games you'll never take a TG without taking a BB as well ... or the BB instead.

Some of you may take it because of fluff, or you like the model, or you don't own other one's ... but in a competative list it's not going to be taken.

There is no reason at all that all models and the faction as a whole can't be balanced for competative play, fluff players still have their options but the gamers can also have different tactical choices instead of taking the same combo's in almost a lot of lists.

TBH I'm done here. Either people can see the point and problem, or can't, so there is no ground to be made from either side.

I'm going to send in my feedback and leave it there for now.

[ketsugami]

I repeat that there is more to a model then threat range -- if that's the only criterion, then just take MK every time, he starts at 11".

Gladiator has two big advantages over the BB -- chain attack, which is excellent against low-DEF targets like other heavies, and train wreck/follow up for slams. Yes, the two of them together are awesome, and yes, the BB is faster, but it doesn't automatically follow that you'd pick the BB over the Glad in every situation; it depends on the army list.

[Verjigorm]

You seem to think there are only 2 options, an auto-include Warbeast or one's that only work for certain warlocks.


The problem is you all say he is fine with pMorghoul, and either Makeda (and yeah soory a 9" move with the new pMakeda) .... but this is the point you are missing ... both the BB and Molik are better Warbeasts with those casters. In fact almost all warbeasts get better with those Warlocks.

They're also 2 and 3pts more expensive. That's a Tyrant Commander, Paingivers or more troops, or whatever. That's why they're better, because they are more espensive beasts!

I take a Mangler over a Nomad, everytime, unless I need those 2pts for something vital. Lotsa people take Rowdy over the Ironclad, unless they need the points.

[Deathraven]

Saying that everyone would take a BB over a gladiator to me does not take into account their different roles and point cost as much as it should. What's giving up those 2 pts for a start? Sure a BB is better than a Gladiator but what about a gladiator and a unit of beast handlers? Or a BRMT?
This arguement always seems to boil down to threat ranges, but if threat ranges are all people are worried about stuff the titans and take Molik! Different beasts for different jobs I say.

[Yertle4]

- Gladiator loses Follow Up
- Gladiators Animus is returned to the previous version of Train Wreck. (i.e. Follow up and boosted Slam Rolls).
+ Gladiator gains +1 SPD.
+ Gains Stampede

~ Bronzeback's Leadership changes to either: A Titan can charge/slam/trample for Free ... or they may cast their animus for free ... or any small bonus where you don't feel like it's needed to make other titan's good.

This sounds pretty good.

[cunningweasel]

I'm happy with the Gladiator, although a way to make him faster would be nice as I don't own a Bronzeback and am not sure if I really want to. Model wise I do, but cost wise and the amount of use I would get out of him, am not sure.

[viperidae99]

I'm loving the Gladiator. He's not a frontline alpha striker, but when he slams, man is it awesome.

And he can always charge for the chain attack if you just want to hurt the old fashioned way.

[kantoboy]

Why can't a warbeast be balanced enough that it is viable option for most Warlocks, instead of just a few.

I agree whole heartedly with this. In my opinion eMakeda really skews attempts to make warbeasts balanced. The extra movement is too good to put on something on par with a death jack or say a seether. I think right now she is one of the better beast casters, (even when her feats says something else).

In my games with eMakeda, with the fast movement, my opponnents have to play defensively. This can be a huge advantage, and I think our beasts are toned down to reflect this advantage.

I think somehow, RTW and leash needs to be toned down a little. That way the beasts and / or pain givers can get a little boost so that they are able to function well on their own.

[Wolfbane]

One Warlock doesn't make a Faction.

Please, feel free to continue with the "shoot-in-our-own-knees" feast.

[kantoboy]

Please, feel free to continue with the "shoot-in-our-own-knees" feast.

Well sometimes I find it helpful to voice out what the designers MAY be seeing. Perhaps eventually figure out how to HELP them make Skorne fun and interesting to play.

[Wolfbane]

There had been 3 updates so far. While I am very satisfied with the last (even with the paingiver nerf), I feel that we will be nerfed some more through the feedback that players of other factions will send. We need to focus on the tweaks that are left in our models. eMakeda is fine where she is, maybe tweak her feat to differentiate her from pMakeda and she's done. I don't see the need to nerf our ONE and ONLY SPD buff, except Rush. No need at all.

[kantoboy]

There had been 3 updates so far. While I am very satisfied with the last (even with the paingiver nerf), I feel that we will be nerfed some more through the feedback that players of other factions will send. We need to focus on the tweaks that are left in our models. eMakeda is fine where she is, maybe tweak her feat to differentiate her from pMakeda and she's done. I don't see the need to nerf our ONE and ONLY SPD buff, except Rush. No need at all.

I find her lacking as a caster still. All her spells help the army get "there". Now that the army is there . . . what now? I think she needs to be buffed.

[Hasten]

I find her lacking as a caster still. All her spells help the army get "there". Now that the army is there . . . what now? I think she needs to be buffed.

I like the idea of bumping her melee prowess up a bit. That's what I liked most about her old incarnation -- she helped her army get there, and she could slice-and-dice things herself once they're there.

-H