eGoreshade

[mellchia]

Seems like he's come up a lot recently in the threads as one of our worst. So for a tournament this past weekend for 50 pts, I threw a list together for giggles to kick around:

eGore
-Harrower
-Leviathan
Max Bane Thralls
Max Bane Knights
Overlords
Revenant Cannon Crew
Bloat Thrall
Tartarus
Pistol Wraith
2x Necrotechs.

I won the tournament, playing this list once against a Beast Heavy eMorghoul list and once against a slightly less beast heavy Kaya list. I played a Coven list the first game.

A few things about eGore first. 1. If you take him, it means you WANT to play him. He is by far the most boring caster in terms of performance and what you'll get out of him. He has a few gimmicks (Phantom Hunter for the battlegroup and Sudden Death), which are not as powerful as other caster gimmicks that we can bring to the table. His feat is powerful tool, but you have to know when to use it. Often times, you'll find it's your army that wins you the game and not him.

I see two ways to play him (maybe three). The first is maximize the utility of the feat. This is done as suggestions exist in other threads by taking Mechanithralls and a Necrosurgeon. Since we have Mechani's, taking Brutes for a Brute delivery system isn't bad at all (plus side, you can bring them back). Then take a lot of multi-wound troops - Soul Hunters, or expensive, such as Bane Thralls or Bane Knights. Phantom Hunter an arc node to run up and cast Curse of Shadows so your models can charge through. Nightmare or Deathjack are excellent warjacks to compliment this kind of list. Pitfalls are going to be ranged lists that can ignore Stealth or lists great at dealing with infantry (eFeora comes to mind).

The second is to use the feat as more as a way to reposition at the end of your turn. This utilizes mostly just Banes. It's more a balanced list in respects to range & combat than the one that tries to maximize his feat. The Leviathan becomes the best candidate for Phantom Hunter. Ranged components include Pistol Wraith, Revenant Cannon Crew, or Bloat Thralls. Arc nodes aren't a necessity, but you should have something to deal with solos as spending Banes is a waste. Black Ogrun have their place in this list as well, if you think you can spare the points somewhwere. Assassination is just brutally bringing Bane after Bane back. While I can be outranged most cases, I bring something to the table.


I say a third playstyle and it's whether or not to include Bane Thralls in the list. Including them nearly requires you to include Tartarus, which isn't a bad choice at all. But feeling the point constraints, could you do without? The answer is of course, yes you could. However, if you want to maximize your feat, adding more bodies is awesome. On the flip side, it is costly combination since you can fit in three units of Mechanithralls in for the points.

I'll go indepth in a following post on why I took the models I did, what I found, and what would change.

[mellchia]

So for my list, I absolutely knew I wanted to play eGore, for several reasons. I love the model (and he is painted). He was my go-to caster in Mk I for the brief time he was out for it and he was the first caster that I would state absolutely got the ball rolling on Bane Thralls.

Having played both styles of attrition that I listed above, including with or without Bane Thralls, I decided that the 2nd playstyle best fit for what I wanted. First I needed my melee component. eGore is the host of Banes, so I went with the max unit of Bane Thralls. Since I'm including Bane Thralls, Tartarus was chosen next. Excellent Sudden Death model and he also produces Banes. Third choice was Bane Knights. I wanted another target that my opponent had to deal with and I wanted something that is autonomous almost. The core of my melee component I felt was complete for now.

For my ranged portion, I looked at the warjack choices. Reaper, Leviathan, and Harrower. Had I wanted Black Ogrun, Reaper would compliment them nicely I felt, but given Curse of Shadows, the BK's ghostly, and the lack of range, I dropped that idea for now. Knowing that I'm not popping spells every turn, I nabbed the Leviathan instead, for the range. However, if the Leviathan gets mobbed by high def infantry, I have a problem. So I grabbed the Harrower as well, to make a deadly duo. Warjacks aside, I picked up a PW for solo hunting and to stall pieces of my opponents army. I also picked up the Revenant Cannon Crew & Bloat Thrall. I only have one of each model, so that determined that choice. I didn't need LOS for the RCC and the Bloat benefits from the 5" AOE. I just wish he caused corrosion. Oh, and if I had to, my Leviathan could throw the Bloat thrall as a last ditch effort.

So now I have 6 points left and I nearly took a Defiler (solo hunter/arc node) and a Necrotech. However, as I did so, I came across a couple of threads that pooled eGore in the same category as the Cephalyx. Wow - I had forgotten about the Overlords. The critical decision came down to provide an Arc Node or not to - I opted out. For one less point, you have three models that can span a total of little more than 18". Influence, while not quite as useful, I found had a purpose from time to time and the Magical attack sprays are great (especially if in combat). 2 points left over, I could have taken McNaile, but opted with two Necrotechs to block LOS and since I had two heavies, why not. Plus Scrap Thralls are great feat fodder.

In tournament format, the list performed admirably. The Leviathan underperformed I felt, but I'm not sure what else would be useful. Maybe a Seether, but given all the models, I was glad to poke some damage where I could. Best part was the Harrower nearly killing Kaya. The list tore Beasts apart. Shifting Stones are EXCELLENT targets for Scrap Thralls as are Standing Stones.

However, I felt that eGore didn't do too much to facilitate the wins. His support was limited:
1. Phantom Hunter on the Leviathan
2. Sudden Death on a Bane Knight. Sudden Death I opted not to trigger until late game, which hurt my opponent more
3. Curse of Shadows on annoying Shifting Stones that were trying to block charge lanes.
And of course 4. the ability to produce more Bane Thralls.

He didn't win me the game, but he helped facilitate my opponent's downfall. Given my list choices, I think it'll be easy for the list to translate to the Tiered format or the inclusion of new models. (I'll add that the Overlords were worth their weight in GOLD. Bypassing Krea's animus, killing a Totem Hunter and using Influence on Tharn Ravagers was fun - my opponent was more worried about them than the BK's).

I would probably drop the Harrower in favor of a Defiler. The Bloat I continue to find to be a liability (potentially), so I would drop in favor for another RCC. I'd like to take Darragh. That's it for the changes to my lists.

[blakeh1]

I know this is an Epic Goreshade thread, but it's nice to hear some encouraging news about the Overlords.

As far as Epic Goreshade. I have played him twice and both times and I definitely agree with the "If you take him, it means you WANT to play him" sentiment as well as "Often times, you'll find it's your army that wins you the game and not him."

As far as creating more Banes though, I found having to be in his CTRL area somewhat restricting. In fact, my one game despite the number of stuff my banes killed, they never killed in his CTRL area so I never actually created more.

[mellchia]

I believe it's order of operations. Never once was he in the deployment zone after first turn. Most of the time, by turn three, he was halfway across the board. I don't use him as a beat stick, but he can do a lot for himself. Usually I just activate him first, get some Bane Thralls in there to create more Banes. Never really been an issue for me. Bane Knights on the other hand for Tartarus...

And yes, I actually almost derailed my own thread for the Overlords and their participation. I won't state more than that.

As far as winning you the game, there are better support casters. Coven, Mortenebra, and even sometimes pDenny are in that category. Their spell list is geared to cater to the army. eGore's...just a mix. Phantom Hunter isn't going to win you the game, although it'll help. The poor RAT on the Leviathan and Harrower usually isn't enough, although it helps. CoS is a great way to get there, but it's not spectacular. Sudden Death isn't going to win the game...not like Infernal Machine or Death Race.

[blakeh1]

I believe it's order of operations. Never once was he in the deployment zone after first turn. Most of the time, by turn three, he was halfway across the board. I don't use him as a beat stick, but he can do a lot for himself. Usually I just activate him first, get some Bane Thralls in there to create more Banes. Never really been an issue for me. Bane Knights on the other hand for Tartarus...

I guess that was the difference. I tended to activate Goreshade afterwards since he didn't really have much to offer in the way of support. Most times I would have my Bane Thralls charge, only then realizing they are now out of his CTRL area. It is definitley something you have to be aware of.

[SkinnyGuy]

I have some various questions and curiosities...

1) What kind of repositioning would you use eGore's feat for? I mean clearly a lot of factors would play into this, making it hard to entirely describe, but even a vague description would be nice. I've always seen the pure repositioning move to be a really costly one, and thus, of limited usefulness.

2) What kind of opportunities were you getting for your techs to make Scrap Thralls? Is there a particular tactic you were specifically using to try to set this up, or did it just sort of happen naturally?

3) While I don't want to derail the thread, I have a subset of questions about some of your model choices. Like...
-Overlords. I can never justify them over the Combine. While you sing their praises above, did they achieve much the Combine specifically wouldn't?
-Cannon Crew. What kind of models were they hitting?

[69Lazarus]

1) What kind of repositioning would you use eGore's feat for? I mean clearly a lot of factors would play into this, making it hard to entirely describe, but even a vague description would be nice. I've always seen the pure repositioning move to be a really costly one, and thus, of limited usefulness.

Certain scenarios may affect how you look at his feat for reposistioning....

I'm still holidng out for our new stuff....

[mellchia]

In fact, my one game despite the number of stuff my banes killed, they never killed in his CTRL area so I never actually created more.

I had that problem once - when I had 22 Bane Thralls on the table in one unit and they all charged. Naturally some were going to be out of the control area...

But yes, I tend to be more aggressive (unnecessarily so) with my casters. I mean, heck, I have the Coven operating in the center of the table most of my games.

1) What kind of repositioning would you use eGore's feat for? I mean clearly a lot of factors would play into this, making it hard to entirely describe, but even a vague description would be nice. I've always seen the pure repositioning move to be a really costly one, and thus, of limited usefulness.

Sure. There's two ways to look at this - before or after the unit has activated.

1. Before the unit has activated. Example: I sacrifice some models (Overlords, RCC, Bloat - all after they have activated), in order to gain models in my Bane army back. I strategically place them so that they have an advantage of an attack come next turn. I activate the Banes and run them further, making them a further threat.

2. After the unit has activated. I charge the unit, then sacrifice models in the unit and additional models to bring back destroyed models. Typically I find the best use of Bane Thralls, where I'll have 8-10 destroyed (and still a unit of 8-10 on the table), which I then place to prevent or gain scenario objectives or to defend eGore, depending on how bad the game is going.

I look at 1. assassination potential or 2. scenario/defensive maneuvering. I personally like 1. but I'll mix it up with 2.

2) What kind of opportunities were you getting for your techs to make Scrap Thralls? Is there a particular tactic you were specifically using to try to set this up, or did it just sort of happen naturally?

It's a fantastic by-product of the threat level you produce with the Leviathan. Leviathan is getting two to three shots off a turn and I never boost damage (only in rare circumstances). It's always at a beast or warjack, so it becomes a perceived threat over the host of Banes. In both games, my Leviathan was destroyed but my Harrower was not (for some reason or another). And in both games, it was the highest ARM target my opponent went after and ignored all the BK's or Bane Thralls. As a result, the end by product was a nearby Necrotech was able to produce 1-3 Scrap Thralls.

Short answer: It was never intentional, but after seeing the product, I wouldn't give it up. If another, it's more feat fodder, which to me is just gravy.

3) While I don't want to derail the thread, I have a subset of questions about some of your model choices. Like...
-Overlords. I can never justify them over the Combine. While you sing their praises above, did they achieve much the Combine specifically wouldn't?
-Cannon Crew. What kind of models were they hitting?

See, here's the difference between the choices. When presented with the Combine vs the Overlords, to me they fill an entirely different role. The Combine are support staff - Puppet Master, Hellfire, buff to CMD, free upkeep, etc. They also act, for me, as a last stand against Warjacks. Given the small-based army, it's not hard for a well-timed trample to ruin my day.

Based on that, if presented the choice of the Withershadow Combine OR the Cephalyx Overlords, I would take the Combine. Hands down no argument. But I see the Combine functioning similarly closer to that of the Pistol Wraith than the Overlords.

Instead, my option was this: What do I have to get through Stealth? I ask, because there is a host of models that are going to be hard for me to kill - Eiryss, Harlan Vash, Totem Hunter, etc. These are models that have assassination potential or just ruin my day. The Combine cannot see these models until too late most of the time.

To that end, it was either do I want a spray attack with an arc node (Defiler @ 5 pts) or do I want 3 spray attacks with a questionable unit that has a potential coverage instead of 15" (Defiler SPD + RNG) of 13" (A single Overlord SPD+RNG) AND the potential coverage of an 18" area (leader CMD of 9"). While squishier, the Overlords were 1 pt less, I get 3 sprays (and a by-product of 3 Influences) and greater area of coverage.

Then I had to look at how the Defiler and the Overlords interacted with the army. An arc node is always going to be prime target for my opponent. Additionally, it's a medium base, harder to hide behind the horde of small based models I have. However, I can sling out from eGore Curse of Shadows and Hex Blast. I have cast Hex Blast once in my lifetime and that was when eGore needed to debuf Krueger for the kill myself. For the Defiler to hit anything, I needed to provide it focus, but I was already giving out a potential 5 per turn, with a definite 2 upkeeps. Something was going to be slightly focus deficient.

On the other hand, the Overlords are autonomous - I don't need to give them focus and they have a better chance of hitting with their sprays (Magic 7 ability). It's magic, so it does get by certain DEF buffs and I can shoot it in combat, instead of relying on their poor MAT. Most importantly, I can use them for feat fodder, which the army was limited at this point, or use the army to bring back Overlords, if I determined it was the best way.

In the end I made a VERY controversial (I believe) decision, in which I was better off without an arc node in favor of the Overlords.


As for the RCC, I'm not sure what I would have taken instead. More melee was out of the question. I needed something else to be very versatile at RNG, without having to move around since my board was going to be swamped with models. Targets I chose typically were beasts, just to add damage. I found it very effective to do 5-8 points of damage to various beasts, then have the Banes charge in and tear them apart. It also made Vengeance activations very devestating. And there were times I missed, but clipped Paingivers or other light targets. At the end of the game against Kaya, she was next to the Warp Wolf and that was a beast I had a better chance of hitting. So she was taking collateral damage for each blast. While she and the Warp Wolf hid behind a building.

If anything, it's more psychological. Overlords, Harrower, PH + Leviathan, and RCC all ignore LOS. Bloat thrall ignores intervening models. And BK's can walk through the stuff you're hiding behind.

I would love to field Nyss too btw. I may drop the Harrower and a Necrotech for a unit. Hunter seems too good to pass up and CRA's would make my life a little bit easier.

[69Lazarus]

It's a fantastic by-product of the threat level you produce with the Leviathan. Leviathan is getting two to three shots off a turn and I never boost damage (only in rare circumstances). It's always at a beast or warjack, so it becomes a perceived threat over the host of Banes. In both games, my Leviathan was destroyed but my Harrower was not (for some reason or another). And in both games, it was the highest ARM target my opponent went after and ignored all the BK's or Bane Thralls. As a result, the end by product was a nearby Necrotech was able to produce 1-3 Scrap Thralls.

I too have seen my opponents really begin to view the Levi as a threat (which is why I babysit it w/ Necro techs)


As to the Overlords - That might have motivated me to try them again....however, I'm still trying to figure out why you weren't simply lynched by the mob for even suggesting it. That's usually how it works around here...lol

[SkinnyGuy]

I look at 1. assassination potential or 2. scenario/defensive maneuvering. I personally like 1. but I'll mix it up with 2.

As stupid as it sounds I never really considered it much for scenario (as I rarely play such things). Though we have such solid scenario casters already I doubt it's going to convince many to run him even then. I guess my follow up question would involve how often you seem to get a solid assassination setup out of it, as it takes a whole turn before anything can come of it. I've never liked his feat though, so it might just be biased via my natural dislike for it no matter what.

It's a fantastic by-product of the threat level you produce with the Leviathan. Leviathan is getting two to three shots off a turn and I never boost damage (only in rare circumstances). It's always at a beast or warjack, so it becomes a perceived threat over the host of Banes. In both games, my Leviathan was destroyed but my Harrower was not (for some reason or another). And in both games, it was the highest ARM target my opponent went after and ignored all the BK's or Bane Thralls. As a result, the end by product was a nearby Necrotech was able to produce 1-3 Scrap Thralls.

Short answer: It was never intentional, but after seeing the product, I wouldn't give it up. If another, it's more feat fodder, which to me is just gravy.

I'm a bit surprised people would actively choose to hunt the Levi over the Banes, actually. Banes are like living Levi shots without the focus investment, after all, but they do so much more too. I wonder how the games would have gone had it been the other way around - hunt the Banes (which would also reduce the amount of replaced dudes from eGore's ability and prevent cheap Thralls for feat fodder) and leave the Levi for later, if at all. I'm not saying the list would necessary suddenly fall apart as such, just that it could have considerable impact on how things went down.

*snip Overlord vs Combine discussion for sake of length*
In the end I made a VERY controversial (I believe) decision, in which I was better off without an arc node in favor of the Overlords.

I think in this very specific instance I can agree that the Overlords are actually decent here. eGore doesn't need a costy node, which helps free up the space to run the fragile spray unit. Though the Defiler is pretty maligned again once the initial spray fascination wore off. Anyway, while the Combine and Overlords definitely do very different things, they're both essentially a trio of unique guys on the board. So whenever I consider the Overlords for anything, I think of the Combine for 1 point more who have a TON of tricks to offer over a good spray and the "meh" Influence. They serve different roles, sure, I just don't like the Overlords simple mindedness as it were. Had the Overlords been 3 points, or otherwise had more tricks at their disposal, it might have been a different story.

As for the RCC, I'm not sure what I would have taken instead. More melee was out of the question. I needed something else to be very versatile at RNG, without having to move around since my board was going to be swamped with models. Targets I chose typically were beasts, just to add damage. I found it very effective to do 5-8 points of damage to various beasts, then have the Banes charge in and tear them apart. It also made Vengeance activations very devestating. And there were times I missed, but clipped Paingivers or other light targets. At the end of the game against Kaya, she was next to the Warp Wolf and that was a beast I had a better chance of hitting. So she was taking collateral damage for each blast. While she and the Warp Wolf hid behind a building.

If anything, it's more psychological. Overlords, Harrower, PH + Leviathan, and RCC all ignore LOS. Bloat thrall ignores intervening models. And BK's can walk through the stuff you're hiding behind.

It's a shame the Cannon doesn't help hit rolls anymore, then I could really get behind that tactic more easily. Or if it ignored stealth. Or a variety of other things, probably. It's just another one of those models that doesn't do enough for me - it only hits what my opponents let it, and even then only hard targets with any sort of consistency. The Overlords I can definitely understand in your list, but the Cannon I'm not sold on at all. I'd probably drop it to help pay for some Nyss or something.

...however, I'm still trying to figure out why you weren't simply lynched by the mob for even suggesting it. That's usually how it works around here...lol

Personally I think the Leviathan is an ok threat, the problem with him being he's just an absurd focus hog in a faction that wants its focus arguably even more dearly than most. And we have melee models that do the same thing for the same cost (or cheaper!), and a general lack of ranged support to otherwise boost the Levi to a damage potential to surpass that. Honestly if he had a Soul Drive like his 9 point brother Seether I'd be all about the Levi, since then the fact he's doing it at range could shine with less input from the caster.

[mellchia]

As to the Overlords - That might have motivated me to try them again....however, I'm still trying to figure out why you weren't simply lynched by the mob for even suggesting it. That's usually how it works around here...lol

I'm waiting for it. I was half tempted to start a separate Overlords thread, then decided the unholy burning that would come with it wasn't worth the effort.

As stupid as it sounds I never really considered it much for scenario (as I rarely play such things). Though we have such solid scenario casters already I doubt it's going to convince many to run him even then. I guess my follow up question would involve how often you seem to get a solid assassination setup out of it, as it takes a whole turn before anything can come of it. I've never liked his feat though, so it might just be biased via my natural dislike for it no matter what.

Again, I didn't take eGore because of scenario or assassination reasons. I took eGore with the premise that I wanted to play him and I'll make him work for me.

As for Assassination, it's pretty much a brutal setup. You add models to the units on the flanks and just run them up, so the warlock/warcaster is pretty much surrounded from anywhere between 2-8 inches, nearly 360 degrees of Banes. Again, psychologically damaging position, knowing that 30+ Banes are going to be charging into you. Or 16+. Or 8. The number really doesn't matter, just that it's a combination of Bane Thralls and Bane Knights.

I'm a bit surprised people would actively choose to hunt the Levi over the Banes, actually. Banes are like living Levi shots without the focus investment, after all, but they do so much more too. I wonder how the games would have gone had it been the other way around - hunt the Banes (which would also reduce the amount of replaced dudes from eGore's ability and prevent cheap Thralls for feat fodder) and leave the Levi for later, if at all. I'm not saying the list would necessary suddenly fall apart as such, just that it could have considerable impact on how things went down.

They didn't actively hunt. Models charged into Banes alright. But after two or three turns of shooting without LOS, they had to silence the guns or else run risk of losing outright. The Harrower was popping 11pts of damage onto Kaya in one turn, while the Levi did 12pts each turn. Again, it's psychological. The threat range of any Bane is going to be 10" or 12" with Tartarus. The threat range of a Leviathan is 18".

I think in this very specific instance I can agree that the Overlords are actually decent here. eGore doesn't need a costy node, which helps free up the space to run the fragile spray unit. Though the Defiler is pretty maligned again once the initial spray fascination wore off.

Spray fascinations have not worn off on me. You should see what my eMorghoul opponent did to my list first turn with two Drakes.

Anyway, while the Combine and Overlords definitely do very different things, they're both essentially a trio of unique guys on the board. So whenever I consider the Overlords for anything, I think of the Combine for 1 point more who have a TON of tricks to offer over a good spray and the "meh" Influence. They serve different roles, sure, I just don't like the Overlords simple mindedness as it were. Had the Overlords been 3 points, or otherwise had more tricks at their disposal, it might have been a different story.

The problem of comparing the two units is exactly as above. When I make my comparisons, I do so in context of a) what my army needs to be filled with and b) what I view as performing similar roles. Usually when I take the Combine, it's "Do I want a free upkeep and the ability to remove upkeeps?". To be honest, I haven't reached for the Overlords in any other game.

It's a shame the Cannon doesn't help hit rolls anymore, then I could really get behind that tactic more easily. Or if it ignored stealth. Or a variety of other things, probably. It's just another one of those models that doesn't do enough for me - it only hits what my opponents let it, and even then only hard targets with any sort of consistency. The Overlords I can definitely understand in your list, but the Cannon I'm not sold on at all. I'd probably drop it to help pay for some Nyss or something.

It is a shame the cannon lost that ability. But Nyss are too expensive for me to really play around with the list and the cannon did exactly what I wanted it to do...

Personally I think the Leviathan is an ok threat, the problem with him being he's just an absurd focus hog in a faction that wants its focus arguably even more dearly than most. And we have melee models that do the same thing for the same cost (or cheaper!), and a general lack of ranged support to otherwise boost the Levi to a damage potential to surpass that. Honestly if he had a Soul Drive like his 9 point brother Seether I'd be all about the Levi, since then the fact he's doing it at range could shine with less input from the caster.

Emphasis mine. Melee, which means you have to get up there. With the Leviathan, I can afford to sit 18" back and let the Banes do all the grunt work. Here's a question though about the Levi's focus hog: On a given turn, are you going to give the Seether all your focus for an alpha strike? I believe yes.

Now take into context the Leviathan with eGore and look at eGore's spell list. Is there anything I'm going to be spamming? Sudden Death? Perhaps, but it works best if you upkeep it and then wait until turn 3, when he really needed that damaged beast to do something (it happened both games). Phantom Hunter? Not really, since it's battlegroup only. Occultation? Meh perhaps, but it's cheap. Hex Blast? Really?

So what are you going to do with all that focus. In both my games, I cast two spells first turn and didn't start casting anything else until turn 3, when I threw Curse of Shadows onto the Shifting Stones. And I still had enough focus to provide the Leviathan. My warjack pairing was meant for utmost efficiency actually - the Harrower was collecting souls and the Leviathan was receiving the focus. It works like that. I could easily drop the Leviathan for a melee warjack, but that requires me to be up there in the mess of Banes. Having played eGore MkII before, I knew that was going to be a disaster to try to maneuver, so I dropped that idea for balance of ranged.

It's true our ranged sucks compared to the likes of Cygnar or the hitting power of Khador. But you know what, our ranged psychs our opponents out because they aren't expecting it, every turn. Without LOS. Could a hex blasting Deathjack done the same thing? Sure, but it would require at least 3 focus, and I'd get only one shot out of it.

I'm actually waiting for the Corrupter....

And one last thing to remember, and I cannot stress this enough: I brought eGoreshade to the table with the purpose and intent of playing him and making him work. This isn't a die hard tactic I'd use with everyone, but I feel now that eGore is more about what the opponent thinks of him than what I think of him.

[Ghyrrshyld]

As to the Overlords - That might have motivated me to try them again....however, I'm still trying to figure out why you weren't simply lynched by the mob for even suggesting it. That's usually how it works around here...lol

The overlords aren't "Bad" like the Drudges are. Also, the RCC was in the list so that would have drawn the most fire.

Besides, this is clearly a list someone put together because they wanted to use the models, so why complain, or offer advice?

[mellchia]

I think 69Lazarus was referring to how he normally gets mob-lynched while I haven't...

And people complain for models everyone wants to use. How do you think the debates over the Leviathan got started? Because someone wanted to use one.

[Ghyrrshyld]

I think 69Lazarus was referring to how he normally gets mob-lynched while I haven't...

And people complain for models everyone wants to use. How do you think the debates over the Leviathan got started? Because someone wanted to use one.

No, because someone wanted to use one, sell the notion the community that it would work against a halfway competent opponent in a tournament setting while simultaniously pretending it was good instead of incredibly situational and inefficent.

But that's neither here nor there.

[Charbok]

No, because someone wanted to use one, sell the notion the community that it would work against a halfway competent opponent in a tournament setting while simultaniously pretending it was good instead of incredibly situational and inefficent.

But that's neither here nor there.

Because we're so overburdened with shooting options as a faction, we should just bin the Leviathan on the say so of a few noisy posters. Right.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:SkinnyGuy

Personally I think the Leviathan is an ok threat, the problem with him being he's just an absurd focus hog in a faction that wants its focus arguably even more dearly than most. And we have melee models that do the same thing for the same cost (or cheaper!), and a general lack of ranged support to otherwise boost the Levi to a damage potential to surpass that. Honestly if he had a Soul Drive like his 9 point brother Seether I'd be all about the Levi, since then the fact he's doing it at range could shine with less input from the caster.

I don't get your reasoning. Melee models do not do the same thing. The Levi's job is to deal damage at range.
I also do not get the "focus hog" stigma he gets. I'm usually not doing anything with that focus anyways if I'm setting that type combo up. The focus IS for the Leviathon.
We have plenty that boosts his damage potential (ARM debuffs)....





Posted by:Ghyrrshyld

No, because someone wanted to use one, sell the notion the community that it would work against a halfway competent opponent in a tournament setting while simultaniously pretending it was good instead of incredibly situational and inefficent.

I wouldn't call something "situational and inefficient" in a list designed around using that very model. I would certainly use it in a tournament setting. Would it be the best choice against every possible list? No, but that's why you get two lists.

[blakeh1]

I wouldn't call something "situational and inefficient" in a list designed around using that very model. I would certainly use it in a tournament setting. Would it be the best choice against every possible list? No, but that's why you get two lists.

In certain builds I have found them very effective and I would not consider them a weakness in tournament play in those lists either. It all depends on your caster/army choices.

[mellchia]

Well, since the discussion has moved to the usefulness of a Leviathan over lets say the equal costed Seether, I'm going to throw this one into the context of eGore (Seriously, I think we've beaten to death this subject in other threads).

eGoreshade has a lot of infantry, which causes a mess on the battlefield. Regardless how your normal playstyle is with eGoreshade, the typical list looks like:

Bane *******
Feat Fodder unit(s) (Mechanithralls say for simplicity. Brute Thrall and Necrosurgeon included)
Maybe Soul Hunters
Maybe Black Ogrun
Tartarus

Several melee units, either min or max, but still, we're looking at about 20+ models on the table. Both Bane types hit pretty hard as do Mechanithralls. Black Ogrun have an expressed and very niche purpose. Soul Hunters are good against infantry but can get bogged down.

So with that in mind, a Seether offers more melee. Large base, free focus every turn. Three attacks, no reach. Chain Attack, Terror, and charges/runs for free. Fairly focus efficient, thanks to the high MAT. P+S above a Slayer. However, it has to get there first - with DEF and a damage grid equivalent to the Slayer, it faces an uphill battle. Additionally, you have to make sure you leave the charge lane open and not mob it with Banes. Threat range on a charge is 9 1/2 inches. Downside is that DMG output decreases against high ARM targets, but better against high DEF targets.

What does eGore give the Seether?
1. Phantom Hunter allows the Seether to charge without LOS, but it lost it's ability to charge over rough terrain for free.
2. Occultation can ensure it'll get there, but you have other prime candidates to be Occultated.
3. Seether only requires 2 additional focus and charges for free.


The Leviathan on the other hand has two less MAT and one attack. But it has a gun. No chain attack, but ROF 3, so I can get three ranged attacks off at a not quite spectacular RAT. Effective threat range 18", or 13" and a +2 RAT for good shooting RAT. Damage increases against base size (and usually ARM value). It does have a higher P+S for combat. Needs at least one focus...

eGore provides
1. Phantom Hunter allows the Leviathan to shoot anyone on the table within RNG, ignoring DEF buff effects that terrain provides, for the most part.
2. If knocked down, it can still shoot, whereas the Seether cannot charge.
3. Occultation works not quite as well, but there are better targets for the spell.

Now then, eGoreshade's spell list needs to be determined as to the focus he has available to dole out.

1. Hex Blast is purely offensive and I'd rather use it against something I'm about to drop. I found that if I cast it, it's 3rd+ turns.
2. Curse of Shadows is used more as an assassinationi set up or just to really debuff a target, stacking with Bane Thralls. I find that I cast it if I have an arc node 2nd turn, otherwise 3rd+
3. Sudden Death. I cast it once a game, upkeep it from first turn on.
4. Phantom Hunter. I only cast once a game, upkeep it from first turn on. Although if I took a Nightmare and Stalker, maybe twice a game.
5. Occultation. First turn cast, upkeep. Drop it if the unit reaches combat.

So I have 3 first turn spells and based on the way I play, two 3rd turn spells. Upkeeps per turn - 3 usually, it can drop down to 1. Spells I need to cast offensively, 2, both of which cost 3 focus. 1 is upkeep, so I'll find that I'm at 1-2 upkeeps or 1 + spell of 4 total. The rest I'm not doing anything with, so that's 3 free.

I can give 2 to the Seether or 3 to the Leviathan. Or camp focus. However, for the Seether to be effective, I need to be up there. So that's one - two turns where the Seether isn't doing anything. As for the Leviathan? If I went first, there's only one turn of running. If I went 2nd, I can move and shoot usually at AD, maxmizing when it starts shooting and killing models. That's two turns before the Seether may start killing stuff. Potentially.

I also see the targets VERY different. The Seether I found has trouble taking on like-minded heavies, where as two Slayers, for only 3 points more, offers two Combo Strikes. The Seether is much better at getting rid of a threat by knocking it down either by throw, headbutt, and so forth. So if something is block LOS, getting the Seether up there is paramount. The Leviathan is much better at removing higher armor units or just seeing past the model and shooting the warlock/warcaster.



Now, an amazing concept is the use of the Seether in conjunction with the Leviathan or a Harrower. Seether runs up and tosses the high ARM model one way. Then the Leviathan comes up (after the model has been debuffed by Banes and/or CoS). Since it is knocked down, I'm not engaging it and therefore it's DEF is anything but snake-eyes. Pump three shots (or two boosted DMG shots) into the target at a +2 POW.

Additionally the Seether can be used to baby-sit the Leviathan, throwing away hard melee threats.

With that said, because of the amount of models in my way for my Seether, I'm apt to pick up the Leviathan instead. I could try a Seether instead of the Harrower (since they're providing the same roles), but based on focus left on eGore, I can easily drop upkeeps in favor of doling out focus, if I felt it was necessary and the upkeep was a waste that turn.

[Ghyrrshyld]

Because we're so overburdened with shooting options as a faction, we should just bin the Leviathan on the say so of a few noisy posters. Right.

No, but just because it's the best of a bunch of bad options doesn't make it a "good" option.

I wouldn't call something "situational and inefficient" in a list designed around using that very model. I would certainly use it in a tournament setting. Would it be the best choice against every possible list? No, but that's why you get two lists.

I would, if I could put less resources into something else and get a larger output.

It wouldn't be the same way (at range), but the unit would end up just as dead, with as little reprecussion, and with much less focus used.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:Ghyrrshyld

No, but just because it's the best of a bunch of bad options doesn't make it a "good" option.

I think it's a great option when I build for it. None of my opponents are rejoicing that I have chosen poorly when placing it on the table. It is never "I'm soo glad he didn't take a Seether".
It is the best option for ranged damage vs. heavies that we have. Period.

I would, if I could put less resources into something else and get a larger output.
It wouldn't be the same way (at range), but the unit would end up just as dead, with as little reprecussion, and with much less focus used.

There really isn't much use in arguing with you so I guess I'll just agree to disagree at this point.

[Ghyrrshyld]

If you are saying that I could not put less resources into something else and get a larger output, providing I built my list around it and providing that I played to maximize that effect, then yes, we will have to just agree to disagree.

Unless you are saying that the Leviathan is the greatest Cryxian Warjack ever, or that you are a better player than I am, I am absolutely unable to agree with your position.

[69Lazarus]

I just think it's strange that you seem to think that you can somehow make one model good if you focus your army around it (Leviathan), yet that I couldn't do the same thing with another model in a different list more effectively when it plays to our faction strengths.

I'm not saying that you can't make something else effective. What I AM saying is that you cannot match this at what it does which is heavy damage at range. If you feel that you can get by without a ranged element in your list that is great. However, it doesn't change what this option brings to the table.

Ninja edit:

Unless you are saying that the Leviathan is the greatest Cryxian Warjack ever

I'm not saying that. I do say it is our best ranged option for doing damage to heavy targets.

or that you are a better player than I am

I could be wrong, but I thought that I remember one of your posts (in another thread) saying you were relatively new to the game.....if that's the case (and I apologize if it isn't) then I am likely more experienced at this than you are. Maybe that is why you don't see it the way that I do?

[Ghyrrshyld]

a

I'm not saying that you can't make something else effective. What I AM saying is that you cannot match this at what it does which is heavy damage at range. If you feel that you can get by without a ranged element in your list that is great. However, it doesn't change what this option brings to the table.

And what I am saying is that you can deal equally heavy damage at a nearly equal threat range using our faction's strengths, and not comitting nearly the resources that you need for debuff + 3 shots.

I could be wrong, but I thought that I remember one of your posts (in another thread) saying you were relatively new to the game.....if that's the case (and I apologize if it isn't) then I am likely more experienced at this than you are. Maybe that is why you don't see it the way that I do?

Relatively new doesn't mean that i haven't played other wargames before and that I am not a good player.

Reading some of your posts, I think that maybe either you are far and away the best player in your area so you can do certain things to your opponents or, you don't play competitively.

I am willing to bet it's the latter.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:Ghyrrshyld

And what I am saying is that you can deal equally heavy damage at a nearly equal threat range using our faction's strengths, and not comitting nearly the resources that you need for debuff + 3 shots.

Sigh. Go ahead and do it then. Of course, situations may not allow you to do it that way. When I faced Haley utilizing Temporal Barrier my shooting came in very handy. What will your charging infantry / jacks do then?

Relatively new doesn't mean that i haven't played other wargames before and that I am not a good player.

Ok. playing other wargames doesn't mean that you'll be good at this one. It takes time to absorb everything in my opinion.....but hey, what do I know right?

Reading some of your posts, I think that maybe either you are far and away the best player in your area so you can do certain things to your opponents or, you don't play competitively.
I am willing to bet it's the latter.

I do play competitively and for many different systems but I've already been over that before.

I can't believe that you're not jumping on mellchia since he is also advocating Levi in a certain list. (oh the humanity!)

[Ghyrrshyld]

I could ask what your leviathan does when confronted by an opponent that possesses range himself, or is good at denying los or is playing the choir.

But I don't care. People will make up their own minds.

[Ghyrrshyld]

Doublepost

[SkinnyGuy]

Again, I didn't take eGore because of scenario or assassination reasons. I took eGore with the premise that I wanted to play him and I'll make him work for me.

...

They didn't actively hunt. Models charged into Banes alright. But after two or three turns of shooting without LOS, they had to silence the guns or else run risk of losing outright. The Harrower was popping 11pts of damage onto Kaya in one turn, while the Levi did 12pts each turn. Again, it's psychological. The threat range of any Bane is going to be 10" or 12" with Tartarus. The threat range of a Leviathan is 18".

I realize you didn't take eGore except to get use out of him, I'm just saying even in news of his success in this way it's not going to change much on the matter. Which is ultimately of no surprise I suppose, though I would love to hear some breakthrough on our more maligned models one way or another that would make them more legitimately competitive.

And I just realized how much more useful the Levi is against Hordes than WM. Beasts can readily heal, sure, but the Levi puts a solid amount of damage on them, and if it's a transfer target it's a significant amount even if left standing. Conversely, it always feels like a failure when I attack a jack and it's still up and about.

That said, I can only go by what you've wrote as far as the game went. I read it as your Banes got ignored for the sake of the Levi, and if that's the case you're already in a winning position. If they hit them first yet failed to neuter them effectively that's a different matter altogether, really.

Spray fascinations have not worn off on me. You should see what my eMorghoul opponent did to my list first turn with two Drakes.

I probably worded that poorly. I meant more along the lines of spray fascination on the Defiler, specifically. Sprays are great. A single RAT 5 spray on a model I'm not taking exclusively to spray things, not so much. I'll take the cheaper nodes 9 out of 10 times.

The problem of comparing the two units is exactly as above. When I make my comparisons, I do so in context of a) what my army needs to be filled with and b) what I view as performing similar roles. Usually when I take the Combine, it's "Do I want a free upkeep and the ability to remove upkeeps?". To be honest, I haven't reached for the Overlords in any other game.

Well of course you make your choices based on what your army needs and what else can do it (which is why things like Rev Crew never get much serious use). I even agreed with the use of the Overlords here. It's more that, though I feel they have a very small niche, it's at a bloated cost, particularly compared to the way the Combine fill their own niche.

Emphasis mine. Melee, which means you have to get up there. With the Leviathan, I can afford to sit 18" back and let the Banes do all the grunt work. Here's a question though about the Levi's focus hog: On a given turn, are you going to give the Seether all your focus for an alpha strike? I believe yes.

Now take into context the Leviathan with eGore and look at eGore's spell list. *snip*...Having played eGore MkII before, I knew that (a melee jack) was going to be a disaster to try to maneuver, so I dropped that idea for balance of ranged.

It's true our ranged sucks compared to the likes of Cygnar or the hitting power of Khador. But you know what, our ranged psychs our opponents out because they aren't expecting it, every turn. Without LOS. Could a hex blasting Deathjack done the same thing? Sure, but it would require at least 3 focus, and I'd get only one shot out of it.

And one last thing to remember, and I cannot stress this enough: I brought eGoreshade to the table with the purpose and intent of playing him and making him work. This isn't a die hard tactic I'd use with everyone, but I feel now that eGore is more about what the opponent thinks of him than what I think of him.

I don't get your reasoning. Melee models do not do the same thing. The Levi's job is to deal damage at range.
I also do not get the "focus hog" stigma he gets. I'm usually not doing anything with that focus anyways if I'm setting that type combo up. The focus IS for the Leviathon.
We have plenty that boosts his damage potential (ARM debuffs)....

I compiled these together since it's easier to respond to that way and because I feel this is quickly becoming about the Levi again. Two things I have to note: Firstly, it's another fortress of text and I'm sorry for that. Secondly, I use the word "efficiency" and "efficient" about a dozen times in one paragraph. Feel free to chuckle.

To begin and reiterate, I always thought the Levi was an ok threat. The problem is his cost for that ok threat. He's a good chunk of points for his cost, and then on top of that you have to be able to supply him focus because yes, he is a focus hog of the highest order. He needs it to maximize his shooting (which is all you're bring him for in the first place) and he often needs it to make sure he hits (which is again what you're bringing him for, right). For his cost, we can get jacks more focus efficient (Seether, almost Nightmare, Deathjack at a skip away). These are all jacks that can do better than the Levi if we are indeed focus short, and many don't cost as much to load up either. Or we can just get self sufficient units that do the same thing.

But you object here to what I mean by "the same thing." The Levi's goal is to put the hurt on heavy targets. Many of our other models put the hurt on heavy targets. This is what I mean by the same thing. The fact that the Levi does it at range is nice, but it doesn't mean his goal is different. The METHOD is different, the RESULT is the same (ideally). The Levi's problem isn't in either of those, it's in the cost for that varied method that simply gives us a result we can get elsewhere more efficiently. It won't be at range, true, but it is unarguably more efficient.

Between the two, efficiency is key in Cryx. We're the quick swarm who fall apart when sneezed on, so we have to be efficient. We already have one hundred and one ways to use our focus most of the time. The Levi fills our lack of range role fine, but he fails the efficiency test and thus is of limited use despite it.

Note the only times the Levi gets to shine is A) with casters with a lot of spare focus and B) with casters who can support its poor RAT. We have next to none in A (Coven with their high focus pool, nSkarre on a good roll, eGore because he's got nothing better to do and can thus ignore nodes anyway). We have very little of B (we lower ARM moreso than DEF, though eSkarre has enough synergy with it to be acceptable with her average focus). But, with these casters the Levi can be worth a try at least, because like in this particular list an abundance of melee eventually becomes inefficient in itself. So the Levi's poor efficiency becomes the most efficient answer left, not because he's anything but poorly efficient, but because melee models that don't reach melee are rock bottom in terms of efficiency.

Let's not pretend the Levi is taken just because he's ranged, either. We don't advocate Rev Crew over Mechanithrall because they have guns, even if a single unit of said thrall hit Crew costs once all the attachments are said and done. Doing damage at range is useful, but it's not the end all be all, and if someone was taking the Levi without first hitting the so called Cryx melee quota most people would advise to switch it out, possibly even if it was with one of the casters who could actually utilize it.

So. Is the Levi "lol worthless" like some Cryx posters think? I'd argue no. But he isn't awesome, either, and he's only truly worth using once a very specific set of conditions have been met.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:SkinnyGuy

But you object here to what I mean by "the same thing." The Levi's goal is to put the hurt on heavy targets. Many of our other models put the hurt on heavy targets. This is what I mean by the same thing. The fact that the Levi does it at range is nice, but it doesn't mean his goal is different. The METHOD is different, the RESULT is the same (ideally). The Levi's problem isn't in either of those, it's in the cost for that varied method that simply gives us a result we can get elsewhere more efficiently. It won't be at range, true, but it is unarguably more efficient.

My goal is different. I'm trying to destroy something at range but not expose my killing model to do so. It also opens up oportunities and often changes the playstyle of my opponent. He can't just manage my charge range becasue I've got a bg gun in the backfield putting significant damage on his damage dealers.

The Levi fills our lack of range role fine, but he fails the efficiency test and thus is of limited use despite it.

How much do you propose that it should cost to heavily damage or derstroy a jack at range?

Note the only times the Levi gets to shine is A) with casters with a lot of spare focus and B) with casters who can support its poor RAT. We have next to none in A (Coven with their high focus pool, nSkarre on a good roll, eGore because he's got nothing better to do and can thus ignore nodes anyway). We have very little of B (we lower ARM moreso than DEF, though eSkarre has enough synergy with it to be acceptable with her average focus). But, with these casters the Levi can be worth a try at least, because like in this particular list an abundance of melee eventually becomes inefficient in itself. So the Levi's poor efficiency becomes the most efficient answer left, not because he's anything but poorly efficient, but because melee models that don't reach melee are rock bottom in terms of efficiency.

I agree - the Leviathon works best in lists that help it overcome certain things. We've got several options really.

Let's not pretend the Levi is taken just because he's ranged, either. We don't advocate Rev Crew over Mechanithrall because they have guns, even if a single unit of said thrall hit Crew costs once all the attachments are said and done. Doing damage at range is useful, but it's not the end all be all, and if someone was taking the Levi without first hitting the so called Cryx melee quota most people would advise to switch it out, possibly even if it was with one of the casters who could actually utilize it.

Well, the Leviathan is primarily choose becasue of Ranged combat. Sure, it has a melee weapon but you want to be shooting with that jack 100% of the time if possible. My Defender for Cygnar is chosen for it's shooting role. Yeah, it has a hammer but my gunmage officer could care less about it. I don't think stuffing other melee options into our list is a problem either.

So. Is the Levi "lol worthless" like some Cryx posters think? I'd argue no. But he isn't awesome, either, and he's only truly worth using once a very specific set of conditions have been met.

Even when you build it into a list to maximize it's potential people don't like it. Meh, whatever. I'll use it.

[Sabin]

Laz, you said I could e-Slap you if you defended eShade. Please don't make me do it.

eShade is the Coven minus conjuntion and their two best spells, he is eDenny minus marked for Death and Predatation, he has combat potential but no more then Asphixious who can teleport, he is everything but at the same time nothing, he only ever comes into his own when you are facing armies full of single health spell casters.

The only partly redeeming feature Shade has is how abusive his feat can be, bring back two pistol wraiths, 9 brute thralls, 2 necrosurgeons, a skarlock and every other multi-wound model that isn't a character that you can fit into the list and other then that just let your army do the work because Shade will contribute jack-sh** himself.

[69Lazarus]

Laz, you said I could e-Slap you if you defended eShade. Please don't make me do it.

E-slap accepted.

I don't really think I was "defending" E-shade at all though....more like wishing that new stuff coming will help him out.

You know me though - I'll still try to mke something with him work but agree with most that he's not much "fun".

[mellchia]

I can't believe that you're not jumping on mellchia since he is also advocating Levi in a certain list. (oh the humanity!)

Eh, maybe they just like wringing you Laz? Or it could be my good looks.

I could ask what your leviathan does when confronted by an opponent that possesses range himself, or is good at denying los or is playing the choir.

You go after the Choir. Denying LOS with eGore is impossible (and yes, we have RCC & Harrower as well). Good range means I'm hiding and maximizing my Stealth up the field. Oh, and I'm shooting still while hidden. In a practice game I shredded the Menite Denial Loop ::Shrugs::. Oh well. I feel like I'm hitting a nail over and over again and it's just not going in.

So. Is the Levi "lol worthless" like some Cryx posters think? I'd argue no. But he isn't awesome, either, and he's only truly worth using once a very specific set of conditions have been met.

I'd agree with this and I think some people will get more out of him than others. I think we've been dancing around this point the entire time too...

Laz, you said I could e-Slap you if you defended eShade. Please don't make me do it.

E-slap accepted.

There's your problem Laz!

...he's not much "fun".

I'm going to agree - he's not fun for me and he's especially not fun for my opponent. I'm going to work on him a little more, but he's just blah. I made him work though, so time to move on...

[Sabin]

I took eShade to a 35 tournament, don't think I have not used him, he just really isn't that good, or entertaining for that matter.

[SkinnyGuy]

My goal is different. I'm trying to destroy something at range but not expose my killing model to do so. It also opens up oportunities and often changes the playstyle of my opponent. He can't just manage my charge range becasue I've got a bg gun in the backfield putting significant damage on his damage dealers.

Fair enough I guess, though if that's your goal I'm apt to say you chose the wrong faction to do it in. As Cryx we have to bring the game to our opponent, addition of Levi or not. Plus we're pretty good at getting our numbers across the board between the sheer amount we can start with, stealth, and/or replenishing our size once we start getting some kills in.

How much do you propose that it should cost to heavily damage or derstroy a jack at range?

Well, considering that breaking down single hard targets is almost a specialty of Cryx and how cheap some of our units are that are spectacular at it, I do think the Levi is overpriced since he pays the "Cryx is bad at shooting" tax. Looking at the price difference in Mechanithrall and Rev Crew, it appears to be a rather steep tax too. Like I said before, if he had a Soul Drive he'd be worth using a lot more often than he is right now. Not to say that'd necessary be an instant, total fix, just that he really suffers from his high cost and focus inefficiency.

Well, the Leviathan is primarily choose becasue of Ranged combat. Sure, it has a melee weapon but you want to be shooting with that jack 100% of the time if possible. My Defender for Cygnar is chosen for it's shooting role. Yeah, it has a hammer but my gunmage officer could care less about it. I don't think stuffing other melee options into our list is a problem either.

I meant more along the lines that we don't bring ranged models simply because they shoot pure and simple. Rev Crew, Cannon Crew, Bloat Thralls - I've never felt inclined to throw these in a list SOLELY because I don't have a ranged element. They have to help accomplish something the list needs first and foremost. Same thing here, we don't throw in a Levi for the ONE fact that it has a gun willy nilly. Presumably we need its heavy hitting power, but the Levi's cost is really bloated in Cryx in that regard.

Even when you build it into a list to maximize it's potential people don't like it. Meh, whatever. I'll use it.

I've found use for it with certain casters (mostly Coven and eSkarre). That said, it's still just so focus inefficient that you're always going to find people who don't like it. Not because it doesn't work, but because of the resources it takes to work. For an extreme analogy, you could try to make your house electricity run completely off of potato power for a month, and maybe even succeed, but it's not going to make people like the idea themselves much. Lol.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:SkinnyGuy

Fair enough I guess, though if that's your goal I'm apt to say you chose the wrong faction to do it in. As Cryx we have to bring the game to our opponent, addition of Levi or not. Plus we're pretty good at getting our numbers across the board between the sheer amount we can start with, stealth, and/or replenishing our size once we start getting some kills in.

I guess I just like having options. I still get to do those other things as well....

Well, considering that breaking down single hard targets is almost a specialty of Cryx and how cheap some of our units are that are spectacular at it, I do think the Levi is overpriced since he pays the "Cryx is bad at shooting" tax.

Cygnar is good at shooting and their best shooter (Defender) is priced the same. The Defender is arguable better vs. smaller, high DEF targets but the Levi wins out on pure damage potential - especially when you consider our debuffing capability.

Looking at the price difference in Mechanithrall and Rev Crew, it appears to be a rather steep tax too.

Do you honestly thing the difference in Mcthralls and Rev Crew is just the guns?

he really suffers from his high cost and focus inefficiency

It is just as efficient as a Defender is when firing one shot at a heavy target. It can greatly surpass the ROF of that Defender. I would imagine, that if a Defender had a ROF of 2 or 3 no one would be complaining about how it was horribly inefficient.
I'm playing a game against Khador tomorrow morning and I'll be using one likely with either Denny or the Coven. I guarantee my opponebnt will not think it is "inefficient".

I meant more along the lines that we don't bring ranged models simply because they shoot pure and simple. Rev Crew, Cannon Crew, Bloat Thralls - I've never felt inclined to throw these in a list SOLELY because I don't have a ranged element. They have to help accomplish something the list needs first and foremost. Same thing here, we don't throw in a Levi for the ONE fact that it has a gun willy nilly. Presumably we need its heavy hitting power, but the Levi's cost is really bloated in Cryx in that regard.

I think the Levi wins out over the other shooting options you just listed by far (who shoots w/ pirates??). Yeah, I don't just throw it into any old list because I want a shooting option. I put it into a list that can take advantage of what it does either by to hit buffs or ARM debuffs. 9 points in a list doesn't exactly cramp your ability to include "hitting power". Even my Coven "Battleship" list had a Deathjack and 6 Banethralls in addition to the 2 Leviathons. By being able to destroy a heavy jack in one turn from 12" away I need less hitting power to begin with. In addition, at 12" away they've still got ground to cover before melee is required anyways.


To get remotely back on topic:

I had considered a Levi w/ E-shade litterally for the same reasons shown here in this thread. In the end, in most of my test games with him I opted for mass infantry with the only jack being the Deathjack (to sort of act as my node). I might give the Levi a try with him though.

[Sabin]

I have run a Leviathan with him in the past, it makes for a decent solo killer, it couples well enough with phantom hunter firing two shots a turn with boosted hit rolls.

[SkinnyGuy]

Cygnar is good at shooting and their best shooter (Defender) is priced the same. The Defender is arguable better vs. smaller, high DEF targets but the Levi wins out on pure damage potential - especially when you consider our debuffing capability.

Throwing in our debuffing capability is precisely what makes the Levi the most inefficient focus user there is. Even a Slayer will do more damage on a debuff than a Levi if they're both focus starved, due to initial attacks. I'll comment on the Defender below, though it's not like Cygnar is at a lack of shooting options besides it or even feels like they have to cast spells to make a lone Defender work. Of course, you could easily get a pair of Chargers instead too, which do quite well at shooting for 1 focus a pop. I'm rambling a bit now, though, so moving on.

Do you honestly thing the difference in Mcthralls and Rev Crew is just the guns?

Lol, of course not. I do think the guns make up for a surprising amount of their cost difference, though, but this is hardly the time to get into the McThrall / Rev Crew analysis again.

It is just as efficient as a Defender is when firing one shot at a heavy target. It can greatly surpass the ROF of that Defender. I would imagine, that if a Defender had a ROF of 2 or 3 no one would be complaining about how it was horribly inefficient.
I'm playing a game against Khador tomorrow morning and I'll be using one likely with either Denny or the Coven. I guarantee my opponebnt will not think it is "inefficient".

Part of what helps the Defender is the +1 RAT and extra 3" it has over the Levi. That +1 RAT lets it viably hit more targets without boosting even when it moves, and the extra range means it won't have to a lot of the time (giving it a RAT high enough to be scary even to bonejacks without boosting, if strapped for focus). It might only get one shot, but it's largely for a different purpose. Partly because it also benefits from Cygnar having more ranged support to go along with it rather than being notable because it shoots at all, on top of the fact that more Cygnar lists can stay back and shoot (thus aiming) rather than plowing forward like Cryx does.

As far as the efficiency of the two goes, try using a Defender with the intention of giving it one focus all game and the Levi the same. Just statistically speaking the Defender will give the better results more readily, amplified by the difference the way the two factions play. An unloaded Levi is by and large a wasted Levi, where for the same cost you can have an unloaded Seether perform quite admirably. That puts it up against stiff competition regardless of the fact the Levi is shooting instead.

I think the Levi wins out over the other shooting options you just listed by far (who shoots w/ pirates??). Yeah, I don't just throw it into any old list because I want a shooting option. I put it into a list that can take advantage of what it does either by to hit buffs or ARM debuffs. 9 points in a list doesn't exactly cramp your ability to include "hitting power". Even my Coven "Battleship" list had a Deathjack and 6 Banethralls in addition to the 2 Leviathons. By being able to destroy a heavy jack in one turn from 12" away I need less hitting power to begin with. In addition, at 12" away they've still got ground to cover before melee is required anyways.

Of course it wins out over our other shooting options. It's the only one that can do real damage with any sort of consistency (albeit at a high cost). Our only other consistent shooter with real utility in the faction whatsoever is the Pistol Wraith, and even Death Chill can be mildly inconsistent just because you have to roll successfully three times.

Another thing to realize is you're talking about the Levi already in its optimal circumstances - a high enough point game to fit it in comfortably, with one of the few casters we have appropriate to use it. A lot of the dislike for the Levi comes in how little opportunity it has to shine at all, because its best use is so conditional. You seem to be trying to convince me how good the Levi can optimally be, but I don't need convincing in that regard really. I know already. I'm just trying to point out why many Cryx players don't care for it, which you've never seemed to grasp for some reason. Or maybe you do, but you always just seem so confused as to why the Levi gets hated on. It's not really that mysterious or unnatural, I promise.

[69Lazarus]

Posted by:SkinnyGuy

Throwing in our debuffing capability is precisely what makes the Levi the most inefficient focus user there is. Even a Slayer will do more damage on a debuff than a Levi if they're both focus starved, due to initial attacks.

We're using the debuff anyways. The rest of our army can also benefit from that debuff. Yes, a Slayer can do great damage but not at range. I really don't see why people continue to try and make that comparision. Also, the Levi does this damage while remining relatively safe. The Slayer (insert melee model here) has to be next to the target which means it is likey in a counter melee range for the opponent.

it's not like Cygnar is at a lack of shooting options besides it or even feels like they have to cast spells to make a lone Defender work.

I regularly cast spells and use gunmage office/Arlan to get the most out my Defender which still can't match the damage output of the Leviathion. Yeah, I'm more accuarate with it, but if you can manage ways around that (which I can) I'll trade that for the raw damage.

Of course it wins out over our other shooting options. It's the only one that can do real damage with any sort of consistency (albeit at a high cost). Our only other consistent shooter with real utility in the faction whatsoever is the Pistol Wraith, and even Death Chill can be mildly inconsistent just because you have to roll successfully three times.
Another thing to realize is you're talking about the Levi already in its optimal circumstances - a high enough point game to fit it in comfortably, with one of the few casters we have appropriate to use it. A lot of the dislike for the Levi comes in how little opportunity it has to shine at all, because its best use is so conditional. You seem to be trying to convince me how good the Levi can optimally be, but I don't need convincing in that regard really. I know already. I'm just trying to point out why many Cryx players don't care for it, which you've never seemed to grasp for some reason. Or maybe you do, but you always just seem so confused as to why the Levi gets hated on. It's not really that mysterious or unnatural, I promise.

I fully understand that it isn't for every list. I've said as much. What I don't understand is that even under "optimal" builds people still act like it is a waste or "horribly inefficient" and that is not what I've been experiencing at all.

All this talk of the Coven - A Levi should be a terrifying sight with Denny if that person has any clue at all of what they are doing. Not only can you seriously damage or destroy targets at range (in addition to still having the rest of your entire list) but you've got a nice long ranged platform to shoot from on the assassination run.

Meh. I'm just glad I've got a reason to field it now other than just when E-Skarre had her jack bond. Getting table set up right now and I'm using it against Khador. (this will be fun)