Clarification of Defensive Formation

[PG_Mootaz]

There has been some confusion on what the erratum for Defensive Formation (DF) means.

Replace the second sentence of Defensive Formation with the
following:
Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this
turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full
advance, any previous orders this unit was issued expire, and this
unit is affected by the Shield Wall order.

What this erratum does is move the DF from AFTER the activation to IN the activation. As a consequence, only the models that have not yet ended their activation can perform the move. This brings DF and Reform to the same mechanism.

A running model can't "complete its action". If you run you do not have an action. If you do not have one, you can't take it nor forfeit it, so you can't complete it. Same would happen to a model which fails a charge.

If at least one model in the unit takes or forfeits its action, the other models may use DF (except those who ran or failed a charge or anything similar). This last sentence is telling that you don't need to have each and every trooper completing or forfeiting an action to trigger DF.

The movements for DF happen after all the actions are completed, so it is:
action model A
action model B
action model C
and THEN the DF moves for A, B and C.

Examples:
Unit with troopers A, B and officer C who uses DF.

Example 1:
All make a full advance and then make their action. Then they all get to make their DF move, except the officer. All are affected by Shield Wall.

Example 2:
All run. None of them gets to make their DF move and none are affected by Shield Wall as no one in the unit completed its action and thus never triggered DF.

Example 3:
They get the charge order. A runs, B fails the charge, C makes a successful charge. No one gets to move as the only model that has not yet ended its activation is
the officer who is not allowed to move. But all are affected by Shield Wall.

Example 4:
A is knocked down and forfeits action to stand up. They get the charge order.
Due to this

If a model cannot run due to some effect and is required to run, instead of running it makes a full advance, then its activation immediately ends.

A makes a full advance and then ends its activation. B fails the charge, C runs. None of them gets to move, none are affected by Shield Wall.

The same basic principles apply to the Reform ability (Kossites, Striders with UA, etc.).

[Ector]

A few questions here:
1). If the unit just advances and then performs no actions, will it be affected by DF or not?
2). Is there any way of moving more than 12" here? I see that DF doesn't move them if they run or charge.

[Barazhufatufafa]

If they charge, they still complete an action, and as a result, trigger the additional move. You may need a sacrifical piece to run out ahead of them to get that to happen.

And yes, even doing nothing is still an action. It simply means they can't run and then move again.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

[Kommissar Golovko]

If they successfully charge you mean. If they don't successfully charge, activation ends and they would not be able to trigger the additional move.

[thomwill]

i know its been said before, and i don't want to start a debate on this again, (and feel free to reprimand me for posting this here) as its pointless and has been beaten to death, and i also understand pp's wanting to bring the mechanic in line with changes to other rules, but this truthfully seems unnecessarily complicated now. it was so simple and clean before, and this clarification honestly does nothing to help me understand it. maybe i just need to see it played out in front of me with actual models to grasp it.

or maybe i'm just stupid and this makes perfect sense.

[osloco]

No, your not stupid Thomwill. I feel the same. A simple mini feat turned into something more complicated.

[Velcro Shoes]

......what?

@thomwill I must be stupid too. None of this made sense.

[whats82]

I think I understand the mechanics now, but the rule does feel more complicated than before by a large margin, and the wording isn't helping it separate what trigger and what effect are linked to individual model or the unit as a whole. I don't like it from mechanics point of view.

Just to confirm what I understand;

DF has 2 triggers and 2 results.
1st trigger is whether or not DF comes into effect at all. This is triggered by at least one model in the unit completing an action. The benefit is everyone get affected by shield wall, regardless of how many model satisfy the trigger.
2nd trigger is per-model basis, and only if DF comes into effect, the models that complete their action can make a full advance.

So you have to keep track during a charge which model actually got the charge, as those are the ones that get to move.

[quindraco]

1st trigger is whether or not DF comes into effect at all. This is triggered by at least one model in the unit completing an action. The benefit is everyone get affected by shield wall, regardless of how many model satisfy the trigger.
2nd trigger is per-model basis, and only if DF comes into effect, the models that complete their action can make a full advance.

Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this
turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full
advance, any previous orders this unit was issued expire, and this
unit is affected by the Shield Wall order.

Trigger: at least one model completes its action, and no other model is capable of completing its action (since we have to wait until after all actions are complete). If no model completes an action, then this can't trigger.
Effect 1: Models in this unit who are not the officer can make a full advance.
Effect 2: Previous orders expire.
Effect 3: This unit is affected by shield wall.

I don't see any way to disentangle effect 1 from the rest. The officer is the only one listed as obeying 3 but not 1. Other than him, *everyone advances*, just like *everyone gets shield wall*.

Basically, if everyone runs or otherwise gives up their ability to complete their action, no one completed an action, so you can't do it, but only one model has to not run or otherwise lose the ability to complete its action and you should be ok.

As I understand it.

[wargolem]

Anyone have any idea WHY they nerfed DF like that?

[Kommissar Golovko]

More to bring it in line with the other similar rules.

[IronChefZod]

This again? It's just easier to give the damn thing after activation and remove all the restrictions. It's needlessly complicated. Just change DF and Reform to after activation and avoid this crap. If you really don't want them running and doing it then just state it in the damn rule, but still have it after activation.

Also I don't understand why in example 3 the model that successfully charged wouldn't get the DF move? Glad this is nice and simple now.

[Velcro Shoes]

I am in no way stating "change it or else I won't play!" when I say this... This rule change is the only reason I haven't bought IFP. I just started Khador, had my first game ever yesterday (I won) and before that I was dying to pick up IFP. Now they have next to no resale value in case I decide Khador isn't for me, so they're a really bad investment. It's a shame too, the IFP models and Butcher were the only reason I wanted to play Khador so badly.

[PG_Angelicus]

why all the drama ppl?

i am a seasonend Khador player and the only thing that actually changes is this

1: a model thats failed its charge cannot benefit from DF
2: a model that runs cannot benefit from DF

all the rest you can do

it is not a big change since most players know how to get the best of their charge so maybe 1, 2 or 3 models do not make it into DF

i don't think i am wrong so pls say so if it is :-)

[schuwa]

This is how I've always played it, and seems clear to me. <shrug>

why all the drama ppl?

i am a seasonend Khador player and the only thing that actually changes is this

1: a model thats failed its charge cannot benefit from DF
2: a model that runs cannot benefit from DF

all the rest you can do

it is not a big change since most players know how to get the best of their charge so maybe 1, 2 or 3 models do not make it into DF

i don't think i am wrong so pls say so if it is :-)

[FoolishSpriggan]

Re: Angelicus - This is actually the best summary I've seen thus far, and probably just saved my IFP from being put on the shelf and ignored.

Just for consistency's sake, can anyone else verify that this is correct? No offense Angelicus, but I've seen so many different explanations and definitions of how they "changed" the feat, I'm not sure what to believe any more.

why all the drama ppl?

i am a seasonend Khador player and the only thing that actually changes is this

1: a model thats failed its charge cannot benefit from DF
2: a model that runs cannot benefit from DF

all the rest you can do

it is not a big change since most players know how to get the best of their charge so maybe 1, 2 or 3 models do not make it into DF

i don't think i am wrong so pls say so if it is :-)

Thanks Angelicus!

[Kayazi backstabber]

semi-double post

[Kayazi backstabber]

Re: Angelicus - This is actually the best summary I've seen thus far, and probably just saved my IFP from being put on the shelf and ignored.

Just for consistency's sake, can anyone else verify that this is correct? No offense Angelicus, but I've seen so many different explanations and definitions of how they "changed" the feat, I'm not sure what to believe any more.

I'm rather late to the party and I'm too new to Warmachine to consider myself an authority, but from just reading the original rule and the erratum, I have to disagree. Quindraco's summary seems correct to me - as long as it's triggered, every model in the unit potentially benefits from Shield Wall and every model aside from the officer gets to make a full advance. With the additional comment that the timing of this mechanic is stupidly vague - disregarding playing like you got a pair, with a simple bit of ruleslawyering this is totally abusable.

[SmellyTerror]

Also agree. I think it's actually this:

1: a model thats failed its charge cannot trigger DF
2: a model that runs cannot trigger DF

You can use DF as long as you've got one model that can be used to trigger DF, and the whole unit gets the benefit.

[Mustakrakish]

Also I don't understand why in example 3 the model that successfully charged wouldn't get the DF move? Glad this is nice and simple now.

Because model C is the officer and they never get the DF move, as per the rule.

[Verthantine]

So its been pointed out to me recently that the Circle Shifting stones can teleport other models even if they don't have a move action to forfeit for the teleport, because its a penalty to using the ability. I was thinking it feels a tad unfair that defensive formation requires a completed action to achieve a move and shield wall in comparison since its a mini feat we get to use once and only once and the shifting stones can shift models every turn. :S Thoughts anyone?

[sliganian]

Ridiculous question perhaps but here it is, I just bought the IFP UA and want to work this out before I play with them:

So all the IFP Charge and beat-up someone (except the Standard Bearer who doesn't have a weapon and therefore can never be in melee - odd). Check.
For ease of example, the IFP are all in a row 12 models wide with the Officer in the middle.
Then the Officer calls for Defensive Formation.
Everyone else in the unit BUT the Officer Advances ahead 6" and leaves the Officer hanging back with his arse in the wind (as it were), and are all 'affected by the Shield Wall order.'

Now, as the Officer is not in B2B with anyone, I take he does not benefit from 'Shield Wall'? The way I am reading the rule, it is not that Defensive Formation gives everyone the benefit of 'Shield Wall', they actually have to perform the B2B action to actually BE in Shield Wall.

Sound about right?

[Jack Hammer]

Sorry this is such a late post. I think this might be a dumb question, but reading the Post here I didn't see it mentioned.

A Figure in the Unit that Runs cannot take a DF Move. I understand this part.
After previous Orders Expire, the Unit is affected by SW.

So if I run two IF forward, keeping them in base contact with each other, they still get the benifit of Shield Wall even though they can't Move?

I think the answer is yes.

[Runge]

Ridiculous question perhaps but here it is, I just bought the IFP UA and want to work this out before I play with them:

So all the IFP Charge and beat-up someone (except the Standard Bearer who doesn't have a weapon and therefore can never be in melee - odd). Check.
For ease of example, the IFP are all in a row 12 models wide with the Officer in the middle.
Then the Officer calls for Defensive Formation.
Everyone else in the unit BUT the Officer Advances ahead 6" and leaves the Officer hanging back with his arse in the wind (as it were), and are all 'affected by the Shield Wall order.'

Now, as the Officer is not in B2B with anyone, I take he does not benefit from 'Shield Wall'? The way I am reading the rule, it is not that Defensive Formation gives everyone the benefit of 'Shield Wall', they actually have to perform the B2B action to actually BE in Shield Wall.

Sound about right?

If teh unit is affected by the Shield Wall order, and he can't move, then wouldn't someone need to move to be in b2b with him?

[twerkin123]

so this is me just rules lawyering or i cant remember and don't have my book on me, but i know running forfeits your combat action, but i thought running completed a movement action??? and i dont think that the minifeat stats that you have to complete a combat action.


can someone tell me where im wrong on this?

[marxlives]

I guess I have a hard time understanding, since DF happens in the activation it can be declared before the move action or between the move and action within the anatomy of a unit? So I declare a charge order, do everyone's move action, and then tell my opponent I am doing DF before I do my charge attacks, then after the attacks I activate DF. But if I do a charge order and it fails then I forfieted my action so it doesnt activate and if I order a run than my activation ends after my move so it doesnt activate. So basically this rule change is supposed stop people from declaring a run and then flipping the DF to get extra movement or to benefit from a failed charge? Okay I can roll with that, I thought thats how the rule worked anyway. So I guess you can basically do a normal move and use DF to get the distance of a run order with the shield wall (since not performing a combat action is not the same as forfeiting one), or to be able to basically reform after a charge before the end of each individual activation.

[Shadowdragon]

"Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this
turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full
advance, any previous orders this unit was issued expire, and this
unit is affected by the Shield Wall order."


Where does this say that DF doesn't affect models in the unit that didn't get to perform an action? From what I understand, if the unit charges, but only one model completes the charge and makes it's attack, then DF can be used and all models except the officer (the officer not being affected is absurdly stupid by the way) can make a full advance and gains shieldwall. Obviously, if all the models run, or ALL the models fail a charge, then none of the models in the unit will be able to complete an action, so you can't use DF.

[Khador247]

Just bump up their a tad and give them the Defensive Line rule. The Defensive Formation rule is garbage.

[HRM]

I think I'm just gonna go do something simple now, like quantumn physics. My head hurts.

[mcpolle]

Damn, as a new Khador player, that was not easy, must be an easier way of putting it,

What happens if you charge, do not kill what you are in contact with, and the defensive line is called, can you walk out of combat, without getting a free strike on you???

As a new Khador player am having a hard time, seeing much benefit from this rule, could someone more experienced make it simple for a new Khador player,

THx

[quotemyname]

"Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this
turn, models in this unit other than this one can make a full
advance, any previous orders this unit was issued expire, and this
unit is affected by the Shield Wall order."


Where does this say that DF doesn't affect models in the unit that didn't get to perform an action? From what I understand, if the unit charges, but only one model completes the charge and makes it's attack, then DF can be used and all models except the officer (the officer not being affected is absurdly stupid by the way) can make a full advance and gains shieldwall. Obviously, if all the models run, or ALL the models fail a charge, then none of the models in the unit will be able to complete an action, so you can't use DF.

Q: Where does this say that DF doesn't affect models in the unit that didn't get to perform an action?
A: It doesn't. That's the point of the errata.

Damn, as a new Khador player, that was not easy, must be an easier way of putting it,

What happens if you charge, do not kill what you are in contact with, and the defensive line is called, can you walk out of combat, without getting a free strike on you???

As a new Khador player am having a hard time, seeing much benefit from this rule, could someone more experienced make it simple for a new Khador player,

THx

To answer both these questions (as I understand it):

The bottom line for what is now the RAW is this: The unit begins the activation. You issue whatever orders you would like. You wait until all models have completed their actions (which comes after movement). You then select whether or not to trigger the mini feat.

-However- there are situations that could prevent this from happening. The officer is the one that must use the mini feat. Since he must use it after his action is over, any situation that causes his, "activation to immediately end," either before OR after he takes his action, will prevent him from using it (this includes 'after' because 'immediately' supersedes 'after'). If he cannot use it, none of them benefit from it, though it can be used next turn.
-- the situations that come to mind here all involve issuing a charge/run order to the unit at the start of their activation.
- A] The unit charges. The officer falls short, failing his charge. HIS ACTION IS FORFEIT AND HIS ACTIVATION IMMEDIATELY ENDS. No minifeat.
- B] The unit charges. The officer has no line of sight to declare a charge (presumably the grunts moved such that his LoS is suddenly blocked). He runs instead. After his movement, HIS ACTIVATION IMMEDIATELY ENDS. No minifeat.

Interestingly, it doesn't matter what the grunts do:

"Models in this unit other than this one can make a full advance"

"Models in this unit other than this one" affects all models in this unit other than the officer regardless of what previously happened during their activation, whether or not they forfeited an action or not. They may all advance. They all get shield wall.

What happens if you charge, do not kill what you are in contact with, and the defensive line is called, can you walk out of combat, without getting a free strike on you???

No. Nowhere does the minifeat state that they gain parry, or ignore free strikes. It's good, but it's not that good. Therefore, strategically you should aim to kill whatever is engaging the IFP after the charge movement first. They have reach, so this should be easy. Use CMA to make it happen. This should leave some if not all the models UNengaged and they will be free to move about as they please.

As a new Khador player am having a hard time, seeing much benefit from this rule, could someone more experienced make it simple for a new Khador player

The answer, put simply, is that this minifeat thrives in scenario play, mostly. It has uses outside of that, and I'll get to that, but it really shines when you need to deny your opponent their objectives.

So as not to risk derailing the thread, I'll drop you a PM.

[quotemyname]

Interesting idea I had the other day. I'm wondering if the situation I describe in this thread would work?

[Col_Festus]

Wow... some how I missed this thread for awhile. I just almost bought the IFP, but I think instead I'll always be using the IFP black dragon UA....

[x3tsniper]

It is also in the official errata.

[PG_Draxos]

I'm adding this to the sticky

[bupti]

I dont wanna beat a dead horse but i dont think the the explanation is correct. Yes i did searchfu and yes i do know that statements from the infernals are somewhat "written law". But i still cant get this into my mind.

[...] What this erratum does is move the DF from AFTER the activation to IN the activation. As a consequence, only the models that have not yet ended their activation can perform the move. [.... ] The movements for DF happen after all the actions are completed, so it is: action model A action model B action model C and THEN the DF moves for A, B and C.[...]

I think it should say "The movements for DF happen immediately after the acion of the model is completed, so it is: action model A, then DF move for model A, action model B, then DF move for model B....."

If at least one model in the unit takes or forfeits its action, the other models may use DF (except those who ran or failed a charge or anything similar). This last sentence is telling that you don't need to have each and every trooper completing or forfeiting an action to trigger DF.

I have to disagree here. But let me explain why.

[...]Immediately after models in this unit complete their actions this turn, models in this unit except this one can make a full advance, [...]

The way i understand this is that every model in the unit that takes or forfeits its action gets the DF move (except the officer). This trigger is independent from the other models and their actions.

[...]advance, any previous orders this unit was issued expire, and this unit is affected by the Shield Wall order.

However all are affected by the Shield Wall Order after the "actions" part of the unit activation (including DF move) is over. I cant see a trigger tied to the Shield Wall Order itself despite having Defensive Formation being used by the officer.

[Khador247]

If an Infernal rules on something consider it official. They communicate with PP about these issues.

[bupti]

If an Infernal rules on something consider it official. They communicate with PP about these issues.

I know, but the clarification contradicts itself.

As a consequence, only the models that have not yet ended their activation can perform the move.

The movements for DF happen after all the actions are completed, so it is: action model A action model B action model C and THEN the DF moves for A, B and C.

Models end their activation after doing their action especially if you switch to another model.

[Mod_Gemini]

This has been answered.