FAQ: Circle Orboros

[Archimedes the Dog]

Yeah, I last saw it used on a warden that charged a warcaster and popped animus; then Baldur cast the warden animus himself and forest walked to the warden.

[Ruan]

... that shouldn't have worked. Which might have been your point - not sure from the wording of your post.

Wild Growth on self is fine. That puts him completely in a single forest. However, wherever he pops out in the forest ALSO has to have his base completely within the forest. If the Woldwarden charged a warcaster and popped its' animus there, then the Wild Growth template would have been centered on the Woldwarden. As we just proved, there's not enough room for him to pop out of that forest completely within.

[Archimedes the Dog]

Yes, I meant it should not have worked, thus I had suggested it be added to the faq. Sorry for it being unclear.

[Ruan]

Ah! S'alright. I'll make the 'completely within' stipulation completely clear in the FAQ then.

[brokennecron]

what if you charge a model close to the warcaster and have sprint on the warden?

[Ruan]

Wouldn't work, I'm fairly sure. Let me check...

Yes, indeed. Lightning Strike would fade the moment that you used Wild Growth. It does not matter whether or not it isn't a buff or another affect - the moment that a model that has a friendly animus on it uses it's own animus, or has another animus cast on it, the prior animus fades away.

For a bit more in depth discussion, see here.

A good question though, added to the FAQ up in General Questions.

[brokennecron]

damn, this is harder than i thought

[Longbow]

Else, at the very least for Ram... what the heck is the point of the knockdown push on Ram if a knocked down model cannot be pushed?

If you really want to contest it, take it to the rules forum and check to see if the ruling still stands, since it did not make the newest Errata.

---

Alright, after thinking it over, I'm going to currently let the rule stand for pushing but slamming does not move. Gimme a bit and I'll change it up.

If they do errata it and it does say slam, I'll change it.

In other words...

Can push a knocked down model, but cannot slam.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but pushing knocked down models is fine. The rules for Ram, specifically says "..can be pushed...". Slamming is different, though. The text would be "...is slammed..." eg. Smite. Push is generally 1" (can be 1D3" as in Force Bolt) whereas slamming is 1D6 (plus clause for different sized bases).

You can always attack a knocked down model with Slam or Push, these will automatically hit. However, only Push will move the knocked down target whereas the Slam will only damage the knocked down target without moving it.

I'm not sure this rule needs an errata, though - it seems to be quite intentional. In Primal MkII it's in 2 places: pg.52 under Slam and pg.63 under Knocked Down.

It'd be difficult to argue with opponents on the basis of an unreleased errata when the ruling seems quite clear in the rulebook. I don't really want to contest it in the Rules forums either, for the same reason.

EDIT: The last Infernal post on that thread was way back in March. I'm not sure an errata is incoming any more at this point.

[Ruan]

Yeah, I'm going with slams as Prime says - can't get the slamming out of a knocked down model. Slam damage, yes. A power attack push's move, yes. Barring something new from the Rules forums, just going to go with what makes most sense.

EDIT!

I did some formatting (mainly, centering the main post titles).

More importantly...

I have added FAQ Quick Links to the OP. While I don't see any way to link to a specific -part- of a post in BBCode, I can, however, at the least link to the beginning post of each section.

[ucfan34]

This is awesome. Your efforts are much appreciated. Thanks.

[Longbow]

Ruan, please sticky this already! It's way past the point of being useful to being awesome! The reformatting has improved visual scan-ability. So, thanks for that.

[Ruan]

I'd love to sticky it, but don't you need mod-fu to do that? If not, then tell me how, if so... then I'd love some nice, kind mod to sticky this.

[Longbow]

Hmm, you're right. I guess you do need mod-fu. Sorry about that. So, any mods following this thread, please sticky this FAQ, thanks!

[dancater]

Ruan
Amazing work.
Cannot thank you enough, informative, concise, useful and well researched. Simply superb.
May I add my e-voice to those asking for this particular thread to be stickied(?spelling).

[Dark Fledgling]

Bump for great sticky justice!!

-DF

[Blaque]

This really should be stickied. I think we're the only forum community to have gotten something this lengthy and well-thought-out. So I grealty approve of its existance.

And stuff.

[Billingsly]

This is excellent (I'm impressed that you put so much time into actually compiling all of this and then posting it in such a user friendly way). This should definitely be stickied.

[Jacobus]

Looks great, only quickly skimmed through. One that might be worth mentioning, as there is still a little confusion for new comers. Is the Kromac Human form and Beast form are both medium bases. I know the two games I have played with him I did it wrong and used a small based figure as my Kromac sub.

Also.
Prowl VS Hunter.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...re+concealment

[Ruan]

Hmm.. suppose I can see the Kromac one, though generally that's fixed by looking at the gallery profiles on the website. I'll include it anyway though.

The Prowl vs. Hunter one though... -that- is a good one. I myself hadn't been aware of that distinction - good to know. I'll add that up in General Questions

[Jacobus]

Hmm.. suppose I can see the Kromac one, though generally that's fixed by looking at the gallery profiles on the website. I'll include it anyway though.

The Prowl vs. Hunter one though... -that- is a good one. I myself hadn't been aware of that distinction - good to know. I'll add that up in General Questions

This is the gallery profile, which is wrong.

Product Information Classification:
Warlock
Base Size:
30
Base Size:
40
PIP Code:
72020
Price:
$29.99*
Model Count:
2
Packaging:
Blister

And yeah. I myself had been doing the Prowl vs Hunter wrong.

[Ruan]

Really? Huh, go figure. I'd always known that Kromac was on a medium base even in Human form... when I put the model together I'm fairly sure they gave me 2 medium bases. Still, good to know, and if the gallery profile's off, then definitely should be in the FAQ to make that clear.

In any case.

I've added Kromac Human form on medium base and Prowl vs. Hunter questions.

[Jacobus]

Also, forgot to say. Fantastic what you're doing here Ruan.

[smw356]

I'd just like to echo that this is a great thread.

[Ruan]

Glad to be appreciated. I noticed there were a lot of random questions that people seem to come up with when one plays with or against Circle, and I myself got tired of having to hunt through myriad threads in the rules forum to find the right anwer (or, at the very least, where a consensus had been reached).

So, if you get a question that comes up in a game that you think is a good one and kinda wanted to know the case, check the FAQ, see if it's there. If it's not there, then try and find a ruling on it and then post the question and the answer to it up here.

I'll be checking this every one or two days for new questions, and updating the FAQ with those and any more I come up with myself as I myself play.

[Zazoo]

Must say awsome work.

[ShubNiggurath]

Great job collecting all this information.

[PG_LEJKaya]

On the -SPD question it may be worth clarifying that a SPD debuff prevents charging even if offset by a SPD buff.

This came up recently for us.

Also, would it be worth asking a mod who stickies this to delete all the replies to keep the thread clean?

[blue loki]

Do we have a ruling on Hunter vs Prowl?
My PG ruled the opposite at our last tournament.

[Calmdown]

Do we have a ruling on Hunter vs Prowl?
My PG ruled the opposite at our last tournament.

Your PG is wrong on so many levels, there's absolutely no reason to ignore Prowl, there's almost literally no way to read that that can make you come to that conclusion. Do PP run basic rules intelligence checks on Press Gangers? :/

[Zazoo]

Your PG is wrong on so many levels, there's absolutely no reason to ignore Prowl, there's almost literally no way to read that that can make you come to that conclusion. Do PP run basic rules intelligence checks on Press Gangers? :/

+1 to that.

[Banehollow]

looks like your PG probably needs to play some more games, and checked if he knows his stuff good enough to run a tournament while 'knowing the rules', you do get some interesting situations but there is no way around the prowl rule, he messed up.

[bilstein]

Mohsar

What does a Pillar of Salt being a Structure mean?

Melee, magic, and ranged attacks all autohit.

A ranged attack must be at least one of these in order to affect the structure:
1. POW >= 14
2. Has Fire or Corrosion
3. Is an AoE

where does it say POW >= 14 ?

[Blaque]

Mohsar

where does it say POW >= 14 ?

">=" means "equal to or greater then". There's a symbol for it, but its a ***** to put in a browser and not everyone's machines will see it.

The rules for the Pillars of Salt are in the structure rules.

And stuff.

[blue loki]

Woah woah woah, don't diss my PG. He's a great guy who knows more than most. He may have made a mistake here (who hasn't at some point?) and I'd like an official link if one exists (if not, I'll just ask in rules) to show him.

I believe the logic of the moment was, "since the cloud is ignored, your Stalker is not in the cloud right now as far as the Hunter is concerned".

EDIT:

Found it:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...nter-vs.-Prowl
links to Lunatic Calm ruling in-> http://www.privateerpressforums.com/...Phantom-Hunter

and for good measure since it's somewhat related
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...-with-awarness

[Ruan]

Ah good, I figured there was probably a Infernal ruling somewhere but couldn't seem to find it.

I would highly suggest that anyone who really wants to play Mohsar read and digest the structure rules found in Primal MK II. My bit is only the short form of them - the actual book goes into more detail.

I'll also clarify the -SPD debuff to note that even if something offsets the debuff, one still cannot charge.

... bah, going to have to expand down into the second General Questions post. Glad I left room to expand. Unfortunately as a result of going over the character limit I accidentally canceled and lost the stuff I put down...

Soon to be added, so I don't forget:

Clarifying that even a SPD buff does not cancel out a SPD debuff preventing someone from charging/slamming/trampling. Going to see if I can find a good rules discussion on that one...

Changes to SPD during Activation - important for Warpborn Skinwalkers. Do they benefit from the SPD buff if they take a free strike during an advance. Answer is no, you check to see what current SPD is at the beginning of the advance and that is what you use throughout.

Infernally ruled here.

For that matter, don't remember if I even had a Warpborn Skinwalkers entry... will check that later.

[Longbow]

Cripes, this thread is already sinking. Hello? Any mod? Anybody at all? Please sticky this thread, thanks!

[Jacobus]

Awesome. Thread be sticky!

[Menoth's Gambit]

This is great stuff. I think Ruan is officially a Potent now.

[Jacobus]

Something with Curse of Shadows I saw mentioned in another thread. Cast it on a unit you have out in front to screen a squishy unit. So then your squishy unit can move through them to attack the opponent.
I don't think you could charge, as from memory the spell does not stop its victims blocking LoS. To get around this though you could use units with Ranked Attacks or other similar tricks.

If I come across any other tips or tricks I will throw them this way.

[Ruan]

Thank you Mr. Mod, whoever it was who stickied this.

Curse of Shadows deal...

Hmm... definitely viable, and there's nothing in the wording for Curse of Shadows that makes me think it could not be used that way. You are indeed correct that CoSed models do not block LoS (which, in itself, is a potential FAQ question). Circle infantry is pretty squishy anyway, so -2 ARM isn't always going to be a problem when you're expecting the guys to die anyway.

Still though, I can easily see someone doing this to surprise an opponent - Curse of Shadows is something that you expect to be cast on enemy models, not friendly. So long as you realize that the Curse, in this case, would work both ways - no free strikes and -2 ARM - I see it potentially working to surprise an opponent.

--

Added more entries for Mohsar's CoS dealing with the above, copied/pasted CoS info from Mohsar to Cassius, as he has the spell as well. Moved Cassius down into the next thread below due to post size limit.

--

Also added a post on correct use of Reeve Hunter-fu, i.e....

A Reeve Hunter charges a model, benefiting from Powerful Charge.
He kills the model, triggering Quick Work, allowing him to make a ranged attack.
He takes that ranged attack, kills another model, which triggers Snap Fire and Swift Hunter, giving him another ranged attack and a 2" move.
He kills another model with a ranged attack, once again triggering Swift Hunter. Snap Fire does not trigger, as Snap Fire shots cannot trigger Snap Fire shots.
He uses the Swift Hunter movement to get into melee with another model.
He kills the model with his second melee attack, triggering Quick Work, allowing him to make a ranged attack.
He takes that ranged attack, kills another model, which triggers Snap Fire and Swift Hunter, giving him another ranged attack and a 2" move.
He kills another model with a ranged attack, once again triggering Swift Hunter. Snap Fire does not trigger, as Snap Fire shots cannot trigger Snap Fire shots.
He uses that last Swift Hunter move to go wherever it is he needs to go to hopefully do it all over again last round.

Granted, this is assuming everything hits/kills. If he doesn't kill, you can potentially choose to trigger Sic 'Em - it's off of hit, not damage.