FAQ: Circle Orboros

[Jacobus]

A Reeve Hunter charges a model, benefiting from Powerful Charge.
He kills the model, triggering Quick Work, allowing him to make a ranged attack.
He takes that ranged attack, kills another model, which triggers Snap Fire and Swift Hunter, giving him another ranged attack and a 2" move.
He kills another model with a ranged attack, once again triggering Swift Hunter. Snap Fire does not trigger, as Snap Fire shots cannot trigger Snap Fire shots.
He uses the Swift Hunter movement to get into melee with another model.
He kills the model with his second melee attack, triggering Quick Work, allowing him to make a ranged attack.
He takes that ranged attack, kills another model, which triggers Snap Fire and Swift Hunter, giving him another ranged attack and a 2" move.
He kills another model with a ranged attack, once again triggering Swift Hunter. Snap Fire does not trigger, as Snap Fire shots cannot trigger Snap Fire shots.
He uses that last Swift Hunter move to go wherever it is he needs to go to hopefully do it all over again last round.

Granted, this is assuming everything hits/kills. If he doesn't kill, you can potentially choose to trigger Sic 'Em - it's off of hit, not damage.

Wow. I had sort of toyed with his ability to do this in my mind, but wow.

Also, CoS can it be Geomancied?
My thoughts were. Have is as the "striker" which as his after charge, before attack action chuck CoS on the unit he has surprised. This would A) remove it from your own unit. B) debuff his targets.
The warden could then hold them up while the blockers move into help mop up.

Of course, I am a slight novice with this, so my theory-fu could be devastatingly wrong.

[niceas]

A question re: Druids - does the cloud from Vortex go away after the druid who cast it dies?

Edit - and can berserk trigger off of a trample attack?

Getting back to the multiple animus stacking business, one trick you could use with a Gnarlhorn and Stalker is use the Gnarlhorn's animus on the stalker, trample with the stalker, and at the end of the sequence of trample attacks use the stalker's animus on itself, kill an additional model, and sprint away

Thanks for the FAQ! I really appreciate it!

[Ruan]

Wow. I had sort of toyed with his ability to do this in my mind, but wow.

Also, CoS can it be Geomancied?
My thoughts were. Have is as the "striker" which as his after charge, before attack action chuck CoS on the unit he has surprised. This would A) remove it from your own unit. B) debuff his targets.
The warden could then hold them up while the blockers move into help mop up.

Of course, I am a slight novice with this, so my theory-fu could be devastatingly wrong.

If you cast CoS twice in a round, via either Woldwarden/Megalith or caster/geomancy, yeah, should work. Upkeep cycling for the win. Noting that down on the friendly fire CoS entry.

A question re: Druids - does the cloud from Vortex go away after the druid who cast it dies?

Edit - and can berserk trigger off of a trample attack?

Getting back to the multiple animus stacking business, one trick you could use with a Gnarlhorn and Stalker is use the Gnarlhorn's animus on the stalker, trample with the stalker, and at the end of the sequence of trample attacks use the stalker's animus on itself, kill an additional model, and sprint away

Thanks for the FAQ! I really appreciate it!

Cloud remains in play, adding to FAQ for druids.

Berserk will trigger, once!, off of a trample attack, assuming you do kill something with it. A trample is not a series of attacks, but is instead rather a single long attack. As it's only one attack, you benefit from Berserk from exactly once.

Believe that's the correct wording on it. Will add to GQ.

Multiple animus stacking is covered, in roughly the same terms, under the Gnarlhorn entry. In fact, I think I used pretty much that exact example - bounding -> lightning strike

--

Also added in the Infernal ruling for the Berserk Trample - surprised I hadn't thought of putting that one in, honestly. That's one that's come up a good bit.

[Cyryst]

Re- Counter slam or slamming in general

Model A Slams model X and pushes it directly away 6 inches. Model A being a Gnarl Horn chooses to follow up model X the full 6 inches it was slammed
Model Y's melee engagement zone intercepts a portion of the path that model A would have to take to complete the follow up effect.
What exactly happens?
Does model A stop because he has entered a new engagement zone, or does model A move through taking free strikes from model Y

[Ruan]

The Follow Up movement is an advance move, and thereby follows the normal rules for an advance.

In other words...

You can (do not have to) follow up a slam with an advance up to (does not have to be full distance) the distance the model was slammed. As this is an advance, normal rules for free strikes are still in play.

In the scenario you propose, you would have two options - either 1) advance past the model, taking a free strike, or 2) don't follow up, or don't follow up completely.

The 'cannot Counter-Slam if engaged in melee' is only for the initial slam attack - the Follow Up is resolved as a normal slam would be.

Depending on the target, it might be a wise decision to hold off on a Counter-Slam Follow Up if the model isn't going to be knocked down after the slam, or following up could put your Gnarlhorn in danger.

Adding yet more the Counter Slam part of the Gnarlhorn's section.

[Cyryst]

Is the follow up distance optional? I believed he had to go the full distance if he "followed up"

[Ruan]

Follow Up - When this model slams an enemy model, immediately after the slam is resolved this model can advance directly
toward the slammed model up to the distance the slammed model was moved.

'Up to' is the key word. You don't have to go the full distance.

[Cyryst]

'Up to' is the key word. You don't have to go the full distance.

Ok so back to the first example but another question just to clarify something

A slammed X and moved {up to} being engaged with Y. Dont want to get stuck on the maths lets just say the slammer has Reach
Anyway now that A finished his follow up advance in engagement range of Y can he be forced to buy attacks against Y although his slam was on X?
logic says yes.

[Ruan]

Yes. This is why Gnarlhorns can and will get assassinations on casters. After the initial slam and follow up, everything rule wise is resolved. At that point, for all intents and purposes you proceed as normal - i.e, you can buy melee attacks against models in your melee range.

So, if for example, you slammed a Rhinodon over Hexeris, knocking both of them down, you could follow up to the point where Hexeris is in your melee range, and buy attacks on Hexeris.

Assuming some little beast handler doesn't free strike you on the way in and put fury on you so you can't buy more attacks. *shakes fist at local Skorne player*

Also, a key thing that I personally always forget with my Gnarlhorn... Gnarlhorns always slam for free. It's part of their grand slam rule.

A final, synergistic note. A Gnarlhorn given the Shadowhorn's Virility animus will slam d6+4", and can follow up however far that may happen to take him even if it is 10".

[Cyryst]

Yes. This is why Gnarlhorns can and will get assassinations on casters. After the initial slam and follow up, everything rule wise is resolved. At that point, for all intents and purposes you proceed as normal - i.e, you can buy melee attacks against models in your melee range.

So, if for example, you slammed a Rhinodon over Hexeris, knocking both of them down, you could follow up to the point where Hexeris is in your melee range, and buy attacks on Hexeris.

Assuming some little beast handler doesn't free strike you on the way in and put fury on you so you can't buy more attacks. *shakes fist at local Skorne player*

Also, a key thing that I personally always forget with my Gnarlhorn... Gnarlhorns always slam for free. It's part of their grand slam rule.

A final, synergistic note. A Gnarlhorn given the Shadowhorn's Virility animus will slam d6+4", and can follow up however far that may happen to take him even if it is 10".

Given this is the case you could easily set up a slam against one of your own models hoping to make your gnarlhorn travel in the direction intended. 6+3+4+d6 inches to sacrifice... i dunno a WoO or something.

[Ruan]

Nope.

Follow Up explicitly states that the slammed model has to be an enemy model in order to Follow Up.

Also, you need to make certain that you don't Follow Up out of your warlock's control if you want to force afterwards...

[E.R.O.K]

Im a new Circle player and this helped out a lot. Thank you.

This should be the norm for all the faction communities.

[Ruan]

Glad to be of service. Speaking of which...Druid Counter Magic issue.

If this is indeed correct, the Druid Leader would not be affected by the Counter Magic that he casts. This is conditionally going into the FAQ - I'll try and keep tabs on it, but if you see it's been ruled on in the rules forums differently and it's not been changed here, please bring it to my attention.

[brokennecron]

so with regard to advanceing abilitiees, when it says full advance you do need to go your full distance?

[Thunder_God]

Up to your full distance, you don't have to make it all.

Ruan, someone should bring it up on the rules forum, or there'd be no ruling.

[Ruan]

Yeah, I'll put it up. I'm fairly sure I'm reading it correctly, but I'll get a discussion up for it if there isn't one.

And TG's right - full advance is 'up to' your current SPD in inches.

[Thunder_God]

I sometimes fire up threads in the rules forum for things I know what RAW states, to help make sure the people writing the rules/errata see it, like Bethayne and infinite free animi on feat turn.

[Ruan]

It's good to have a discussion thread in the rules forum to reference with this sort of thing as well. I was originally going to leave it be, as the rule seems fairly self-evident to me, but it seems that others are having some trouble understanding it, so I'm firing it up.

See here.

Added full advance is up to SPD in inches, as I've run across that question several times from opponents asking about Kromac or the Shadowhorn Satyr. Also noting that a full advance cannot be a charge. See GQ.

Also came across an interesting tidbit here:

Jump vs. Counter Charge

Near as I can tell, the conclusion here is correct. After your full advance, but before the jump, there is a period where Counter Charge can trigger off of the full advance.

Basically, the general idea is that Counter Charge triggers after model's normal movement ends. Jump does not automatically trigger after movement, but rather occurs after movement and before action.

It's kind of like the idea of the timing between charge movement and charge attack. You could potentially cast spells or Geomancy things during that time period... but you could also be Counter-Charged/Slammed during that time period as well.

The way I see timing resolution is like this:

Normal Movement
Reaction to Movement
After Movement/Before Action Actions
Actions.

[gitbse]

*shakes fist at local Skorne player*

Join the club. Everybody at my LGS hates the Skorne player.

[cryocube]

Loving this thread as I branch out from Ios to Circle. I have just started and am focusing on Wolds (casters Mohsar and Baldur so far). While reading here, for clarity, I found two places were things might benefit from a rephrase. Perhaps change 'His' to 'Baldurs'? Took me a few read throughs of the cards to suddenly consider it was from a caster instead.

Woldwarden

Can you trample and then Geomancy a spell?

Yes. His Elemental Mastery means that they can trample for free and then Geomancy something like Earth Spikes. It's a good trick for getting every little bit of range possible from your Woldwardens.

Megalith

Can you trample and then Geomancy a spell?

Yes. His Elemental Mastery means that they can trample for free and then Geomancy something like Earth Spikes. It's a good trick for getting every little bit of range possible from your Woldwardens.

Again, loving this thread.

[Ruan]

Definitely a valid point. I think when I originally wrote those entries it was with Baldur firmly implanted in my mind.

Changed the two entries for clarity.

[Blaque]

The Trample + Geomancy thing I use all the time with Baldur. It leads to my preferred tactic of him lately, which I tend to call, "Orbital Bombardment" for a reason.

And stuff.

[niceas]

Here are a couple more questions - for clarity:

Can I do anything in between berserk attacks? (eg use an animus)
What happens if as a result of your assault attack you are no longer in melee with your intended charge target (eg they are dead)?

[Thunder_God]

Can't do stuff between berserk attacks, you're still in the midst of resolving the attack and its effects.
Assault triggers after movement, so you don't end your movement. You get to make a non-charge attack against anything in your melee range.

[PG_LEJKaya]

you can do stuff between berserk attacks, such as trigger warpath or whatever.

[Thunder_God]

You can resolve "Triggers", you can't use abilities, animi, anytime abilities, etc.

[Ruan]

Basically you can react, but you cannot act, is kind of how I personally thought about it. Think about it - you are berserking. When one berserks, one isn't thinking of much of anything but how to kill, maim, slaughter, and dismember as many people as possible.

Which is probably why I think the only thing you can usually do when Berserking is move via Overtake, Warpath, and other such abilities to bring more poor, unfortunate souls before your blades/teeth/right pinky toe of doom.

... I should probably stop posting at 5 am in the morning, it makes me silly.

In any case.

I have added:

Effects and penalties of being thrown or slammed during your own turn (a Shadowhorn throwing your own Woldwyrd, for example). General Questions

Berserk, resolution of triggers for the Warpwolf Stalker.

A checklist how-to-assault guide for both Wolf Riders and the Tharn Ravager Shaman, with particulars for both.
---double-check please, those who really understand the assault rule - think I got everything right, but it never hurts to confirm.

You must successfully charge in order to get the bonus for Powerful and Brutal Charge, noted on Ravagers and Ravager Chieftain UA, respectively.

[More Shooting]

So, if I've understood both Kromac's Jump and the Shadowhorn's Bounding, a spell like Admonition will trigger after the normal movement, not after the Jump/Bounding movement. That's useful to know.

Might be worth adding to the Woldwatcher that Stone Form does not prevent Shield Guard. I've been asked this a couple of times when using it.

[Ruan]

Correct. Admonition triggers off of an advance, so it has to be off of the initial full advance movement. Jump/Bounding Leap is a placement effect, not an advance, and thus does not trigger Counter Slam/Charge or Admonition.

And I'll add the Shield Guard/Stone Form bit. Been wanting to put -something- down for the little stone guy anyway.

---

Added. Had to shift things around in the Warbeast section to do it.

[Thunder_God]

I'd add again, you can't assault a model you began in melee with.

[Ruan]

Added that caveat to the 'assault ranged attack from less than 3" away' question, since that's where it'd come up anyway.

[Ruan]

Added Druid Wilder entry, which I somehow missed.
-Reiterated, once again, that you can't use SELF animi with Spirit Tap
-Also noted that a warlock attachment is NOT part of the warlock's battlegroup.

Added eKaya entry for a random thought that turned out to be valid and may completely change what I do with eKaya's feat turn.
-Sprint from Lightning Strike and her feat teleport trigger at the same time - at the end of a model's activation. You choose the order in which they trigger.

In other words... You can get teleported back to eKaya, and then trigger the Sprint.

[Astos]

I had a question about Baldur's Theme force that isn't in the FAQ. I'm perhaps just missing something, but the answer's not clear to me:

One of Baldur's teir benefits makes it so that Sentry stone units and Shifting Stone units start 20 inches from the back of Baldur's deployment zone. My question is, does this stack with Advance Deployment (which both of those units have) to give you 26 inches? Or is it "instead of"?

If I'm remembering my deployment rules correctly, it might not be a very impressive bonus if it is "instead of". IIRC, normal deployment is 10 inches for the first player, 12 inches for the second player, and advance deployment is 6 more, which means in some cases you'd only be getting an extra 2 inches... So I'm guessing they stack. But I thought this might be a good place to ask for sure!

[blue loki]

They do not stack. The back of Baldur's deployment zone does not change, so the distance is always 20" even in Steamroller (which has 8" and 12" DZs).

[Ruan]

20 inches from the back of Baldur's deployment zone

You answered your own question. Loki's correct.

[Astos]

OK. Thank you!

[Ruan]

We have an answer to the Counter Magic question. Is the Druid Leader affected by his own Counter Magic?

Answer is:

Krielstone is now on the list for the next errata update.
Druids are now on the list for the next errata update.

Both abilities will gain "this model and"

So the warder and krielstone bearer are affected by their respective effects.

Yes, he is. We've got an errata, folks. Cheers. Duly noted and linked under the Druids entry.

[Tsenzei]

It should be noted that that errata may not be in effect yet, so ask your TO to make sure (and if they're decent, they'll have it be in effect anyway) if/where applicable.

[Cyryst]

Got a question for ya on Cassius
Is there really no way we can flesh of clay (guardian animus) Wurmwood? Assuming that if Cassius casts it it effects himself, and him alone.

[Ruan]

That is correct, unfortunately. I'm going to write in something in the Rules forum, just in case - the only way I can possibly see it working is if the damage transferred to Cassius still counts as a 'ranged attack', but I am relatively certain the damage is going to be a property of Sympathetic Link. Stay tuned.

EDIT: Actually, never mind, even that would not work, not going to post in Rules forum.

Here's why.

Flesh of Clay triggers on HIT. In order for Flesh of Clay to trigger, it would have to be on Wurmwood, which is impossible. Flesh of Clay is a SELF range animus. This means it can only be cast on the Wold Guardian itself, or its' master, the warlock.

I thought for a second there it might be possible for Flesh of Clay to trigger on Cassius if Wurmwood was hit, but re-reading the rules really quick threw that out the window.

Question has been duly noted in Cassius' section, however.