Mk2 Things I noticed.

[Necra-Chi]

Just thought I'd put all the things that I noticed in one place, as i read it. This is stuff that is significantly different to Mk1 or was speculated about or just caught my fancy or whatever. If I make an exclamation please take it only as a first impression. I'm not commenting on power levels or anything like that.

Warlocks have battlegroups!

pLylyth +6
Eyeless sight
Didn't her feat use to be a pulse?
Parasite!

eLylylth
+5 (they must think she's good)
Eyeless
Feat is much easier to use and buffs shooting only.
Pin cushion becomes death sentence
Shadowpack is battlegroup and easier to use.
Gets Pursuit

pThag
+5
The feat allows the resurrected beast, which can now be a charcter, to advance.
Death shroud got split into passive -2 STr and the fog of war spell - Nice!
Spray attack is type fire but no continuous

eThag
+3 (and for good reason)
Spray 10 that does continuous fire and crit freeze and has fire and cold type. Amazing
Flight
Manifest destiny, new name, still fantastic
Scourge! Holy crap!
Unnatural Aggression gives a maintenence move - Wow.


Vayl
+4
Her feat is totally different. And I don't get it. She can extract a heavy from combat after a turn. Its a lot of advances but no attacks. Wierd.
Immunity cold.
Dark snetinel survived, surprisingly
Talion absorbed into passive ability. Nice!
Spellbound is channeling. Good. Much clearer.
Hoarfrost is just a little AOE with crit freeze. I liked that spell.
Gains Leash. Themey
Gains Rampager

Edit: Incite is control range now. Very good but I wonder why E-thag and vayl didn't just get the same spell.

Rhyas
+6
Feat doesn't allow infinite placement anymore, just one placement. Problems solved
Gets force barrier from sister and is channeler for her - nice
Full decap, but no befeit to army, and she isn't weaponmaster.
Deathshadow makes her incorporeal. That can be useless or useful.
Mind ripper downgraded to malice.

Most underwhelming so far.

Saeryn
+5
Feat isn't trumped by magical melee attacks. Yay. But is battlegroup only.
Force Barrier (didn't see that coming)
Gets some of rhyas abilities when with her and can channel for her.
Blightbringer got more expensive because its still awesome. Is corrosion typed as expected. I can't figure out if it goes away if the target dies.
Breathstealer didn't change to rebuke
Otherwise mostly unscathed. Wow.

Absylonia
+5
The warp effects all got toned down
Gets grievous wounds on claws.
Did blight field use to stop channeling?
Mostly the same.

Harrier
2
Fly by becomes sprint. Very nice.
Still has true strike
Cheap slippery lesser with great animus

Shredder
2
Rabid is much the same and faster on the run.
No adelphophagy but also no pack mentality.

I say totally spammable.

Protector
5 as expected
Shield guard as expected
Animus changed and rather useful.

Its a bodyguard but it can still frenzy on your warlock.

Soldier
5
Animus movement reduced to 1"
Glide become relentless charge.
No hypersenses and will still gut your warlock.

I'm thinking this should be 4 pts or less. Will have to test it out.

Raek
4 (yay cheap)
Shadowstalk much easier to use.
Pathfinder Yes!
Stealth Yes!
Good MAT

The jaw doesn't help the tail. And it didn't get extended control.

Teraph
5
Counterblast didn't improve
It gets Advanced deployment Yes!

I notice no crit poison on tail.
I like it. AD dig in is nice. I can use that.

Seraph is a heavy!
8 (ouch)
It got a few more boxes and a slight ARM buff for being heavy
Slipstream survived
Serpentine didn't get a no free strikes benefit. It now can't even slam. And doesn't get the benefit of being a heavy.
The gun got the treatment expected (and has damage type fire) and the tail got stronger.

The nerf is on a scale even I didn't expect. Even the threshold is lower.

Forces himself to go on...

Angelius
9 wow cheap.
Same damage as seraph. Its just a warped seraph really.
Avenging angel still weak
Ravenous is overtake. 1"
Otherwise unchanged Ok not so cheap.

I notice that flight allows movement through obstructions. We're paying a lot for that.

Carnivean
11 (The avatar's cost? Really?)
Spiny growth affects warjacks too
Spray 10 fire no benefit
No more lockjaw.

I think its the combo of so much offensive power, staying power with a massive assaulting spray. But difficult to believe its worth an Avatar. needs lots of testing I think.

Typhon
12
Regen D3
Critical pitch but nice POW on the bites

Can't say I was expecting much different. It seems normal and fair now.

Archers
5/8 standard price
Concentrated volley becomes suppresisng fire. This is the kind of thing I was worried about.
UA is cheap
Comined arms is nice.
Pathfinder
No poison minifeat

Legionnaires
4/6 Yes!
Vengeance yes!

Very very good, exactly what I wanted and expected.

Raptors
6/10
No dual shot but poison

Don't know what to think about these guys.

Scather
3 so the more expensive artillery
RAT 7 decent POW long range AOE that lingers. Solid

Swordsmen
5/8
No change, but was expecting them to cost less for that.
UA expensive
No discernible change

Spawning vessel
2/3
Construct
Still seems difficult to use, because its exactly the same. And if the vessel is destroyed the acolyths go poof.

Striders
6 pts and no real change. This was what I expected.
UA is expensive
They gain hunter which is very good because it ignores cover now.
No extra shots of course
No minifeat. Just makes the unit able to spread out more, if the musician is too close to the commander.

So they got toned down too.
9 pts Hmmm

Warmongers
5/8 so not the cheapies I was hoping for
Nothing changed except ARM decreasing. Huh?
Edit: Mat increase nice

Warspears
6/10 more than warmongers
Assault instead of ambuscade.
Same defensive stats as Warmongers but have set defense.

Wow our infantry is very... um... straight forward.

Forsaken
2 yay!
Nice! she can buy attacks now, and can take fury from 8" away. Still total auto-include.

Incubus
5 for 5 Fair
Incubus pop out in maintenence phase.
This means none of the old tricks but still very intrigueing. Indeed. Yay something to test! Nice and themey too.


Shepherd
1! An army filler. Yay! Except that I want 2!
Is now like a paingiver. Totally different but cheap and even more fury management. VERY good fury management

No torpor

Warchief
3 as expected
Gives blooddrinker so the warmongers can heal and stop berzerking. Nice.
They still need LOS to get the to hit buff.

Deathstalker
2 That's actually a relief, expected higher cost.
Much the same but doesn't move striders with its shots, rather give sthem the ability to do so. That's cool.

Sorceress
4 ouch
Free charges for flyers for free
Blight storm still badass
Wind ravager is command range so quite good.
Gains frostbite.
Magical weapon.

Minions that interest me
Bonegrinders
Talisman gets less range
They can arcane bolt!

Swamp gobbers cost 1 so nice filler but they ahve to be inside their own cloud. But at least they have camo making DEF 19.

Feralgeist is the same.
Gudrun is the same

Totem hunter gets AD, Prey, Sprint with jump built in. Love it!

Pendrake's dismember got toned down. yay!

[chrsjxn]

I think you're reading Vayl's feat incorrectly (which is, admittedly, very easy to do).

I'm pretty sure it's:

• At the end of your turn (...)

• For each enemy model in your control area
  
  • one friendly faction model gets to make a full advance
  
  

[Shadowspite]

warmogers are mat 7 now!

Deathstalker is now a swift hunter and grants it to striders...VERY good. for very cheap.

Thagrosh -2 str aura is command ragne now (so 9)

Vayl incite is CTRL now! not 8"

Rhyas + Shadow stalk is so amazing.

Absylonia's playing god now makes all the warbeasts weapons Open fists. so Carn has 3 fists, Raek and teraph can 2h-throw!

[tonyzahn]

Gudrun isn't quite the same. There's nothing saying he can't take damage when he's knocked down, so you can kill him in one turn if you've got the extra melee attacks.

[Necra-Chi]

Ah yes. That definitely needs to be clearer. Its typical of vayl that nobody understands her rules though.

It should say "for each enemy model..." then "one friendly non-warlock blah blah" otherwise my interpretation is correct. It says one model can act, and it acts for each enemy model.

I didn't notice the nice MAT on warmongers. Their cost makes more sense now. Nice.

Why on earth does Gudrun have binge drinking then?

[freekittens03]

angelis are fa U now...could be useful with saeryn/vayl on feat turn

[Hjelmen0]

Why on earth does Gudrun have binge drinking then?

Because of Feign Death? So you can't shoot him when he's down. The change is that the first time he's "killed" he can still take damage (but being knocked down, not from ranged or magic attacks that target him), which he couldn't in MK1.

[Bobby Hostile]

I think you glossed over this on the Shepard;

Beast Master - This model can force friendly Faction warbeasts in its command range as if it were their controlling warlock

So yeah... they got much better and aren't dependent on being in a Warlock's CNTRL range to use it either.

[Necra-Chi]

Yeah I see feign death now. I even looked for it. :lol:

Didn't I say I wanted 2 and that they have fantastic fury management? Beastmaster is just a more free way of doing what she used to. Still has the same risks.

No targeted frenzies though.

[Defenstrator]

Why on earth does Gudrun have binge drinking then?

Because he also has Feign Death. So he runs up, falls over due to Binge Drinking, and then can't be targeted by Range or Magic attacks.

I think the new Shephed is worth the 1 point, but I'm going to miss the ability to pick frenzies alot.

[freekittens03]

No targeted frenzies though.

frenzying is crap now its only 1 normal melee atk with boosted dmg and atk.

also this just got pointed out in another thread that typhon has a dead space from .5" till 2" in which he cant target ne1 with his sprays due to gunfighter

[Necra-Chi]

That's ok.

[Hjelmen0]

Hm, Breath Stealer lost a little range, and so did Craft Talisman. Probably a good thing for balance, since range 15 Breath Stealers was a little OTT.

[freekittens03]

Hm, Breath Stealer lost a little range, and so did Craft Talisman. Probably a good thing for balance, since range 15 Breath Stealers was a little OTT.

Ok im getting a little annoyed see this all over the place in the legion forums. that stuff was a little OTT so it was ok. If you look around at the other factions most of their broken things are still around. The biggest one is circles lightning spam which is very alive and well.

Guess i wish that we would of kept a bit more from mki. esp with some of the things we abussed

[Hjelmen0]

Don't get me wrong, I loved locking down two units at a time so I could do practically what I wanted. What I didn't love was the look on my opponents face when I did so.

Three 3" AoE's that don't move can be handled, so I'm not too worried about that. Other than Krueger I don't see much lightning "spam" in Circle.

On another note: It seems that our ability to go very beast heavy is still very much alive and well. Lower thresholds, the changes to shepherds and general frenzying is a bit of a pain, but still being able to run all-beast or almost-all-beast was the most important thing to me, so I'm basically happy :P

EDIT: Lylyth lost arcing fire. Not a big deal, since wings no longer ignore free strikes, but I thought I'd mention it anyhoo

[Necra-Chi]

My first impression is that our warlocks are our strength, our warbeasts all seem overcosted when compared with warmachine, and it looks like we are expected to make up the difference by taking beast support solos that allow us to force a lot. We're paying a lot for the ability to move over obstructions but not ignore free strikes.
The infantry are as bland as you would expect from legion, except that it appears that PP want us to take hordes of Legionnaires. So its up to the interaction of our warlocks and beasts to make something happen I think.

Anyone noticed that the MAT RAT of beasts didn't improve, but neither did the defensive stats or number of boxes, and the warlocks have low free warbeast points.

I'm excited to put some models on a table and see what this all means now.

[freekittens03]

Yeah i would be happier if most of our bsts were 1-2 points cheaper. I still dont understand how atleast our angeli doesnt have parry when something like a cankerworm does?

[katadder]

well carnie definately isnt worth an Avatar with a MAT of 5, whats that all about, is there even a jack with that MAT now?

[Hjelmen0]

Some beasts improved a little bit in MAT or RAT, but there was no blanket increase like in WM. OK by me, since fury still makes it easier to get a boost where you need it most.

I agree that LoE infantry is as uninteresting as they've always been, with the notable exception of Striders + UA which look just fine to me. Raptors look good too. Good thing I play LoE to run with as many beasts as inhumanly possible

[mongre36]

It does not surprise me that warbeasts are on average 1 or 2 points more expensive that warjacks. After a few years of having the games mix I expect privateer has re-examined the value of reaving, transfers and that most heavy beasts start at Fury 3 and go from there. In contrast warcaster or other support almost all warjacks are limited to 3 focus and lack the transfer ability.

I seems as well, at least for legion, part of the issue could be the relatively low number of heavies.

Even with the Seraph being added Legion is limited to Angelius, Seraph, Typhon and Carnivean for heavy warbeasts. That is a small number compared to the 10 heavies in Khador and is even low compared to other Hordes factions like Circle which has itself a lower average heavy beast cost at 7 and 8 for the two Satyr.

On the other hand there are 2 point shredders and harriers.

The points costs for the Warmongers is about what I would expect too given the MK2 rules and costs for their closest references in WM the Man of War. At 6/9 for both of those units the Warmonger unit is actually a bit cheaper with the war spears being a bit more. Play testing hopefully will show if the warspears are worth that cost or not but I suspect Warmongers are probably about right for 8 wound troopers.

[Necra-Chi]

Woah. E-Lylyth's feat gives the extra attack to battlegroup only.

[freekittens03]

Woah. E-Lylyth's feat gives the extra attack to battlegroup only.

only battlegroup get an extra atk but everyone gets snipe

[mongre36]

All models get snipe, only the beasts get the extra shot. Interesting.

[freekittens03]

All models get snipe, only the beasts get the extra shot. Interesting.

Interesting=that sucks...

[alchahest]

does the feat mean that a carnivean will have TWO 14" sprays?

[freekittens03]

Yeah but with a rat of 5 thats not the greatest of things...

I havent read through the rules for mk2 hordes or wm but u still cant make a ranged atk and melee atk in the same activation correct? unless the card says otherwise

[Necra-Chi]

No 2 x 10" sprays

I'm really struggling to fit enough stuff in 50 pt lists to give any confidence that I can take on a typical warmachine army. I'll be doing most of my testing against some of the best of Protectorate, and first impresisons is that Protectorate are going to have it easy.

The first two lists I want to try out are:

E-Thagrosh
2 Angels
3 Seraphs
2 Forsaken
Full Legionnaires
Shepherd

Yes, that's all we get. The list actually has less than I used to be able to fit in 750. Unprecedented.

E-Lylyth
Teraph
2 Angels
10 Incubi
Striders with UA
Striders
2 Deathstalkers
Totem Hunter

With this list I was pleasantly surprised how cheap the strider module is, but trying to fill the rest of the list with beasts that synergise, beast support and still find some way to deal with armour, is difficult with what I own.

Edit changed the second list.

[zpavlov]

quick note, wasn't eLylyth's feat granting a second attack (well, different effect, but similar idea) on all models, not just her battlegroup?

edit, nvm, answered while typing

[freekittens03]

snipe wont add to sprays?

[freekittens03]

quick note, wasn't eLylyth's feat granting a second attack (well, different effect, but similar idea) on all models, not just her battlegroup?

yes it was and it wasnt limited to only ranged atk if i remember correctly

its also killing me that the seraph is only fury 3. its the only heavy in all hordes with fury 3

[Necra-Chi]

E lylyths feat is also nerfed in that it affects models (not model/units) and is an aura.

Wow. Really different.

[blitzmonkey]

I am personally trying to grasp some of the units. As you mentioned, Necra, the units seem pretty meh. Raptors have a reason to be fielded as well as legionaires.....but for the most part it doesn't seem like anything has drastic new roles.

[Top]

I am personally trying to grasp some of the units. As you mentioned, Necra, the units seem pretty meh. Raptors have a reason to be fielded as well as legionaires.....but for the most part it doesn't seem like anything has drastic new roles.

I think you're right on about not drastically changing roles for units/ models. Different nuances.

What PP seemed to try and achieve over on the WM MK 2 was to make all of a factions units/ models viable choices again. I think they succeeded. I am keeping that in mind as I read and re-read both the unit cards and rules for Hordes Mk 2.

-Top

[Necra-Chi]

I am personally trying to grasp some of the units. As you mentioned, Necra, the units seem pretty meh. Raptors have a reason to be fielded as well as legionaires.....but for the most part it doesn't seem like anything has drastic new roles.

I'm actually finding that on paper, most of the things I want, that I don't feel like I'm being ripped off, come from the infantry and solos. On paper at least.

[Arkady]

I'm not sure about the Warspears, since they lost ambuscade, the critical effect and no longer benefit from the War Chief. Yeah, they have a bit more threat range, but we have other options for ranged attacks. Two CRAing archers/striders out-threat, are way more accurate and only lose out on one POW.

[Mezzanine]

My only problem is that Nyss Swordsmen and Archers dont have any defense against AOEs and AOE attacks are everywhere in Warmachine right now. Other than that, the infantry and especailly the solos look fantastic.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

Warspears gained 8 hit points and i think a point of arm...

EDIT: to add, they don't just throw the spear. they throw the pow 13 spear at rat 5, and then jab another boosted pow 13 spear at mat 7 into what they threw the first spear at.

[Necra-Chi]

They're ranged set defense versions of warmongers, same defensive stats.

[Arkady]

My only problem is that Nyss Swordsmen and Archers dont have any defense against AOEs and AOE attacks are everywhere in Warmachine right now. Other than that, the infantry and especailly the solos look fantastic.

AOEs aren't as scary with the new formation rules. What IS scary is the increasing prevalence of suppressing fire templates. And of course, Menoth makes all one-wound infantry meaningless. :P

[OldOneEye]

I think Warspears have their place, and are a good contrast to Warmongers. Warmongers can clean out single-wound infantry thanks to Reach and Berserk. Warspears are better at taking out bigger targets like cavalry and warjacks/warbeasts. With Assault, that's two pretty solid attacks per Warspear against a single target.

2 points more than the Warmongers, though?