Druid Leader within Own Counter Magic?

[Ruan]

When determining the effects of a spell or ability that affects models within a specified distance of a model, the effect is a circular area extending out from the model’s base and including the area under the model’s base. Unless the spell or ability says otherwise, however, that model is not considered to be within the distance itself.

While within 3˝ of this model + 1˝ for each other model in this unit that is in formation, enemy models cannot cast spells and friendly models cannot be targeted by enemy spells. Counter Magic lasts for one round.

We've been discussing this on the Circle forums here.

The question is whether or not the Druid Leader is, himself, affected by Counter Magic. If I am reading things correctly, he is not. In other words, he is targettable by enemy spells.

My own attempt at explaining how this works:

Counter Magic specifies 'while within X" of this model'. The 'this model' part is the key word, near as I can tell. It means that while models close to the model may be effected, 'this model' is not. Look at the wording and forget the assumption that the Druid Leader is automatically included in the 'within' area, and it does make sense.

It's models within a distance of him, but not him, himself.

Some people are confusing the 'within X"' with 'within control area' or 'within AoE effect'.

The first includes the model inside of it because a warcaster/warlock is always included in his control area.

"A model is always considered to be in its own control area."

Primal, pg. 75

The within AoE effect is because that's where the model is - inside of an AoE effect that includes it.

So a Druid that summons a Vortex is inside of the Vortex cloud effect, and gets its' benefits.

---

TLDR version:

The Druid Leader is not affected by his own Counter Magic. He is targettable by enemy spells.

Is this correct, or incorrect?

If this is correct, then try and explain why - I've tried, but I'm having trouble doing so in a way people will understand it.

If incorrect, same deal - try and explain why.

[smw356]

If he's targetable it does kind of defeat the purpose.

[Thunder_God]

Not entirely. You still can't cast spells from "range" of any Druid, so if you keep him say, 5-6" behind the front line Druids... you can get him, with arc-nodes, or after you already get some of the other druids.

Regardless, that's not a valid rules-point, just a case for "RAI in this case can't be the same as RAW", which would also be supported by the fact that I doubt anyone played it in this manner thus far, including in tournaments.

[Ruan]

If he's targettable, that would also mean that the Krielstone's aura does not the Krielstone Bearer itself as well. I've known a few Trollblood players that've missed that.

And Tremor does not knockdown the Ironclad that used it. Which is fairly obvious, but it's an example of the same sort of rule working IN one's favor.

An example of something that gets around this is the Sure Foot spell:

Target friendly Faction model gains +2 DEF and cannot be knocked down. While within 3˝ of the affected model, friendly Faction
models also gain +2 DEF and cannot be knocked down.

If the spell specifically states that the model it radiates from is affected by the spell, then it is affected by the spell. Else, it would not be.

[Shadowspite]

Read as written would imply that no he is not effected by the counter magic aura, nor the Krielstone by his aura.

I don't think it is intended to work that way however.

[Strange_Eric]

Read as written would imply that no he is not effected by the counter magic aura, nor the Krielstone by his aura.

I don't think it is intended to work that way however.

agreed. Good catch. Would need to read "This model and models within 3" + 1" ..."

[tuttleboy]

I'm sorry but it seems you all are over thinking within 3". How can a thing not be within 3" of itself? Doesn't within 3" mean anything 3" or less from the model? The model is certainly less than 3" from itself.

...or maybe I'm underthinking this.

[PG_Xardian]

Well, I wouldn't have thought it before, but reading up in the book, I have to agree with the OP. As written, the Overseer does not affect himself. Page 30 as quoted by the OP is pretty specific and clear on the point. "Unless the spell or ability says otherwise, however, that model is not considered to be within the distance itself."

It does seem a tad silly to me, but that's the Rules as Written. Intention, I'll take a pass on. Might be it's an oversight, or might be an intentional weakness to offer the opponent a crack in the armor. I couldn't tell you. But since the Countermagic ability is worded as a "friendly models within X inches of this model..." that does indeed exclude the unit Leader who is using the ability.

Against Hordes, it's not as big of an issue when a full unit gives a 10" bubble of no casting. Less useful against warmachine or the Barknode since it doesn't stop channelling.

Handily though, arc nodes and most casters have a difficult time seeing through cloud effects, making the guy hanging in the back difficult to target anyway. Exceptions may apply (*cough *Vayl* cough)

I'd still like an Errata that changed it to, "...this model and friendly models within X..."

[Shadowspite]

I'm sorry but it seems you all are over thinking within 3". How can a thing not be within 3" of itself? Doesn't within 3" mean anything 3" or less from the model? The model is certainly less than 3" from itself.

...or maybe I'm underthinking this.

it has to do with the definition of "within," not just the game definition. to be within something, you have to be inside of it. something cannot be inside an area you measure from that object.

ex: Within the Castle Ramparts, the Castle ramparts aren't within themselves, but the area is encompassed by them, or Within a house, the house isn't within itself, but the area it sits on is.

so by strict reading, the area you must be within is the edge of the models base to however many inches out. the base of the model you are measuring from cannot be included.


and because of all the *** backwards crap, and weird ways I had to word that are why I think this is unintended.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Based on the rules for Measuring Distances on pg 30 of Primal (last paragraph). The Overseer would not be effected by counter magic.

[Blaque]

Random things on this thread:

Terminology - The one iwth Countermagic is the Warder, not the Overseer.

And secondly, is this an issue of RAI v. RAW and while we aren't garunteed a Checking anymore, is this going to be looked into further? Seems that this, like the Hunter issue with Grim, is something not considered and kind of missed during the FT.

And stuff.

[sepher32]

The krielstone is not effected by how own aura and if the druid's ability reads the same he is not effected by counter magic.

[CG]

If this isn't an oversight, why is it this way? It seems to limit the benefits because the effects go away if the origin model (who isn't effected) dies.

[Thunder_God]

Maybe that's why it's not an oversight You consider it a bug, I'm sure non-Circle players will consider it a feature.

Thus, discussion here should be limited to rules, which at this time, has no new information coming.

[NmoLvr]

The krielstone is not effected by how own aura and if the druid's ability reads the same he is not effected by counter magic.

Emphasis mine, chris.

Is there a thread on this? I can't find one. I've always played that the stone was also affected by the aura. Doesn't mean I'm right, but I am curious.

Edit:

Never mind. Found a rule to answer the question. Not sure why I didn't check the rules first...... I'm blaming Monday.

[Thunder_God]

KSB has the same language as the Druid leader, so if one works like this, so does the other.

[NmoLvr]

KSB has the same language as the Druid leader, so if one works like this, so does the other.

Agreed. That's why I wanted clarification on the krielstone bearer.


Edit:

Here's a quote:

When determining the effects of a spell or ability that affects models within a specified distance of a model, the effect is a circular area extending out from the model’s base and including the area under the model’s base. Unless the spell or ability says otherwise, however, that model is not considered to be within the distance itself. For example, when an Ironclad uses its Tremor special attack, it affects all models within 2˝ of itself, but Tremor does not affect the Ironclad.

Emphasis mine, chris.

Neither Krielstone nor Druid specify the model itself is within the effect, so according to this they are not.

Edit again:

This rule was already posted in post #8 and confirmed by Redphantasm immediately thereafter.

Read the thread, check the rules, THEN post in the thread. I'll try to remember that for the future.

[Thunder_God]

Well, right now, RAW says the KSB does not benefit from its own aura.

[NmoLvr]

Well, right now, RAW says the KSB does not benefit from its own aura.

Yep. Now that I've read that rule, this seems pretty clear. The ability does not say that the Druid is affected, so he is not. There's the answer to the OP.

Also, my krielstone bearer stays at ARM 13. Gotta remember that....

[Saerko]

Also, my krielstone bearer stays at ARM 13. Gotta remember that....

It's worse than that, actually. He also doesn't gain the Stone Warp benefits, so you're looking at also losing the ability to shrug off continues effects under Combat Warding. That's huge against Menoth carpet-bombers and Cryx sprays because they can nuke your KSB and shrink the aura.

[PG_thegreatblah]

It's worse than that, actually. He also doesn't gain the Stone Warp benefits, so you're looking at also losing the ability to shrug off continues effects under Combat Warding. That's huge against Menoth carpet-bombers and Cryx sprays because they can nuke your KSB and shrink the aura.

Which is why it seems counterintuitive and most likely an oversight. Though we will see when/if they clear it up.

[NmoLvr]

Which is why it seems counterintuitive and most likely an oversight. Though we will see when/if they clear it up.

Doesn't seem counter-intuitive to me. That's just the way the rules work. Just means we've got to be mindful of where we place our models.

[Strange_Eric]

Doesn't seem counter-intuitive to me. That's just the way the rules work. Just means we've got to be mindful of where we place our models.

Its only because you're used to the odd within rules. Ask a new player how to read that and they'll think he's affected. That's intuitive.
Hell intuition on the tremor attack says it doesn't hit the model doing it just because common sense would lead you to think that.

Both krielstone and druid counter magic go against common intuition. And either it stays as is and we have to explain that to players constantly to get everyone on the same page. Or it gets erratad so the rules match what people assume.

Either way, waiting on purple.

[NmoLvr]

It has been demonstrated many times here that common intuition has nothing to do with the rules.

And, purples don't usually interject when the rules are clear. Like it or not (and I don't, in this case) the rules are clear.

[PG_TSpot]

Im just starting Circle and myself and all my opponents have never thought that the leader was not affected. As much as your right and the raw is that he isnt it is so easily mistaken that a different wording might have been used to make it clearer.

Cheers, T

[Strange_Eric]

It has been demonstrated many times here that common intuition has nothing to do with the rules.

And, purples don't usually interject when the rules are clear. Like it or not (and I don't, in this case) the rules are clear.

Uh.
You said:

Doesn't seem counter-intuitive to me.

And it clearly _is_ as demonstrated by TSpot right above me. And while the rules may be _clear_ in this instance, the rules were also clear about Blackhide Wrastler being able to stand up Molik Karn, and that got changed. Just because a rule "works" doesn't mean it won't change. Hence the desire to see a Purple drop on this.
I don't expect one to pop in and rule on it, I just expect PPS to look it over internally and then , hopefully, issue errata on it.

[NmoLvr]

I guess I've just grown accustomed to the rules not necessarily making sense.

When I used the word 'clear', I didn't mean 'logical and straightforward.' I just meant 'not open to alternate interpretations.' The rules clearly say the druid (and the krielstone) are not effected by their own auras. I can see where this could be counter-intuitive, and as I've said I've been playing it wrong with the krielstone. This thread has opened my eyes to the error of my ways.

[Khador247]

I imagine this issue will be addressed in the next FAQ but since we just got an updated FAQ I'm guessing that we'll have to wait a while. I really hope that this is ruled in the "common sense" fashion that the Druid Warden and the Krielstone Bearer are both affected by their respective abilities.

[Thunder_God]

The case with the Blackhide Wrastler had nothing to do with common sense, but with game balance. That was not a rule being nudged to the way it "should read", but a real change.

Strange Eric, you come to the rule knowing ahead of time what you want it to say, and then try to nudge it there. That's not what's done here, where we look at what a rule does say.

[PG_joedj]

It's worse than that, actually. He also doesn't gain the Stone Warp benefits, so you're looking at also losing the ability to shrug off continues effects under Combat Warding. That's huge against Menoth carpet-bombers and Cryx sprays because they can nuke your KSB and shrink the aura.

They not only shrink the aura, but completely eliminate the aura on a turn if the Bearer model himself is destroyed (if not saved by Self Sacrifice, but instead moved via 'leader' formation rules, then the aura goes away "this model" rule )

If the Bearer is not affected by his own aura, I and the other 2 Troll players at our venue have been playing this wrong for all of MK II

[tuttleboy]

Has anyone PMed an infernal to bring this thread to their attention? It seems like that's about the only way we see purple names in the forum anymore.

And that stuff I said earlier about a model being within 3" of itself still applies, but I should have read the rules blurb posted by the OP a little closer. Right now after reading and paying attention I believe the druid leader isn't affected by his ability the way it's written.

[Lanz]

Has anyone PMed an infernal to bring this thread to their attention? It seems like that's about the only way we see purple names in the forum anymore.

And that stuff I said earlier about a model being within 3" of itself still applies, but I should have read the rules blurb posted by the OP a little closer. Right now after reading and paying attention I believe the druid leader isn't affected by his ability the way it's written.

They know. They don't just skip the threads over and not read them.

Anyways, I could see this going both ways. It's counter-intuitive to say the least, but it could also be a deliberate Achilles' heel that allows the model producing that effect to be surgically removed in order to end the effect. The anti-magic effect is pretty brutal as far as anti-magic goes. Cannot-target and cannot-cast-within? Very crippling in some cases, and understandable why they might have singled out the leader to still be targettable. Even then, it's basically implied that you'd have to use an Arc Node to pull it off due to the actual size of the zone.

[ResurrectioN]

This clarification is huge buff for Cryx' spell-slinging casters.

[YabaBaga]

I thought it was ruled on a while ago that a model is within its own command range which would be similar to the situation here. If it isn't, it could potentially alter a lot more models.

[bouncymischa]

I thought it was ruled on a while ago that a model is within its own command range which would be similar to the situation here. If it isn't, it could potentially alter a lot more models.

The ruling either way could affect a lot of models. Consider *Attacks that affect models within X" of the model -- not just Tremor, but Vent Steam, Combustion, etc. Do models suddenly start getting hit by their own attacks? Or spells that accomplish the same thing, such as Blazing Effigy?

It could be that certain abilities will be errata'd to affect themselves, but a reinterpretation of the "within X"" abilities may cause a lot of headaches...

[vintersbastard]

I thought it was ruled on a while ago that a model is within its own command range which would be similar to the situation here. If it isn't, it could potentially alter a lot more models.

It wasn't ruled on, there simply is such a rule in the book regarding Cmd range. (Prime, p. 84, second sentence under Command Range)

But there is another rule (located on p. 30, at the bottom right) that states that this does not apply to effects that affect models within an otherwise specified distance of a model, which was quoted in the very first post.

[PG_n00buaddib]

While within 3˝ of this model + 1˝ for each other model in this unit that is in formation, enemy models cannot cast spells and friendly models cannot be targeted by enemy spells. Counter Magic lasts for one round.

Tremor (��Attack) - Tremor affects every model within 2˝ of this model and does not require a target. Make one melee attack roll. If the roll equals or exceeds the DEF of an affected model, it is knocked down. This attack roll cannot be rerolled. This model can make a Tremor special attack if it charges.

As was already pointed out, if he's immune to magic, Ironclad and Rowdy knock down themselves each time they use tremor. Unless we get an errata saying otherwise, I'd say the case is pretty clear. Sorry Circle and Trollblood dudes.

[Valander]

I thought it was ruled on a while ago that a model is within its own command range which would be similar to the situation here. If it isn't, it could potentially alter a lot more models.

No ruling required; Command range is a special case and called out specifically:

Every model has a command range equal to its CMD in inches. A model is always in its own command range.

Others have provided this quote, but I'll paste it again, because it seems to answer the question as written:

When determining the effects of a spell or ability that affects models within a specified distance of a model, the effect is a circular area extending out from the model’s base and including the area under the model’s base. Unless the spell or ability says otherwise, however, that model is not considered to be within the distance itself.

[PG_Tionas]

its a clear rule, and the only thing that could change it is that the Units would have "including this model" added to the wording. it'd be simple and easy, and would not have ramifications. actually, after doing a search, I cannot find a single "including this model" phrase in either set of models. Why include a caviat that exists for no reason, eh?

[Mod_Redphantasm]

its a clear rule, and the only thing that could change it is that the Units would have "including this model" added to the wording. it'd be simple and easy, and would not have ramifications. actually, after doing a search, I cannot find a single "including this model" phrase in either set of models. Why include a caviat that exists for no reason, eh?

Read wind wall. It discusses the effects that apply to models completely within 3" of this model, then in a separate sentence applies those rules to the casting model itself. The casting model is not affected without that sentence. Even though he is within 3" of himself, he is not affected because of the rules for auras.