Theme Forces Review

[PG_LEJKaya]

Ok, so now we have a theme list for each of our casters, after 9 books of looking at other factions themes and thinking "what the hell?" we finally get to play with our own.

I want to start by reminding people that the theme lists are not necessarily based on the warlocks activities in the background stories. More the themes are based on a concept indicated by the name of the theme so for example pKaya, who in the narrative has only beasts and has her own pack of Argus and warpwolves and little else, is included in a theme called "The Wild Hunt" and includes all circles hunting specialists. Obviously as woodland hunters, reeves figure heavily in this, even though they do not match Kayas background or her stories.

It has been said also that some theme lists are designed to emphasise an area of game play or to make popular models more prominent. Others do indeed match the background of the associated caster.

So what does Circle get? Well, a mixed bag. We may have the overall weakest forces releases but our themes are actually on par with the rest. You won't find a community that doesn't consider some of its themes pointless and most books (Ours included) have at least one stand out powerful theme.

Baldur
This is exactly what we expected more or less. I like this theme, it will make good use of the elements in it and even the sentry stone will even have an advantage and be useful here.

Now with Sentry Stones, warden and megalith animus, druids and his spells and feat Baldur will have lots of control here and all the elements of the theme help by allowing more , advance move and the sentry stones SUPER AD! Getting closer to objectives with a control army is a great help and with Killbox becoming a smaller box in SR2011 (12" from edges instead of 10") it even helps there!

Now Baldur won't make quite as good use out of T4 as, say eKaya. Baldur likes his construct light beasts. If you aren't taking druids a Wyrd is a great option and good if you are taking them! The Watcher makes forests and is a better ranged protection option for Baldur than the Guardian.

The theme requires doubling up on Woldstalkers. As they are very cheap, I think this is quite reasonable. They are a good unit, though seldom seen they are a solid ranged option and against most light beasts/jacks are easily able to make themselves useful.


Cassius
Even though we are still getting used to this warlock, I think we can find something to say about this theme.
Ok, the main thing I noticed was that the units I'd want with this warlock are those with treewalker. Ravagers and the whitemane are both omitted from the theme.

This theme looks as if it was just thrown together last minute, FA: U Skinwalkers? Really?
He offers them nothing, the tree prefers cheap single wound guys and they are > £10 per model! Nobody needs 3 units of these.
Tier 3 is what we're after, starting with 3 souls is a nice bonus, though if I'm honest Cassius has no use for them early and its easy enough to fill up before he gets in range to cast.
He can have Megalith though and will be able to have all future character beasts unless they are living lights. Odd.

Theme requires doubling up on skinwalkers which are cheap but are very much anti-synergistic with Cassius himself.

Kaya the Wildborne
This was one of the surprises and a few people have said this will be a nice theme.
Tier 1 reduced points cost is very good, taking min units we can easily manage 2 max units or 2 with a max and a min with one UA if you like (Though this would presumably be purely for aesthetic reasons...) This synergises with tier 3 very well.

Including Morraig is certainly no chore nor is taking heavy beasts if you want the 2" extra.
The theme allows Reeve Hunters which will be nice as having camouflage is better than not having it!
5 war wolves would also be nice in this theme as their 24.5" threat range is great for a reserve that will go exactly where you need it.

Theme requires doubling of reeves, usually this would be bad but in this case it is the entire point and so should be used. It remains to be seen if it pays off.


Kaya the Moonhunter
I consider this our best competitive theme. eKaya needed druids and the theme requires only 1 unit. I usually took 3 heavy beasts. The only thing this is missing is the Wayfarer.
However I basically manage to swap the Wayfarer in my old list for 3 Skinwalkers, a good deal in anyones book! It also gives me AD on beasts, advancemove on the skinwalkers and +1 to first turn, further sweetening the deal.

Also skinwalkers are a great unit, I would never have managed to discover their abilities if not for this theme as I would not have tried them in this kind of list.

Theme requires no double units.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Krueger the Stormwrath
The druid theme. Again Morraig is hardly a chore to take and is a good lightning tendrils target. This looks like a fun theme which can be used as is to make decent competitive lists or can be taken to extremes to make fun, casual lists.
This doesn't stop you making usual krueger lists but adds the option of more druids and blackclads.

Theme requires doubling of Druids of Orboros which at -1 cost is entirely reasonable.


Krueger the Stormlord
This was a shock too. This theme allows none of the usual eKrueger models! Literally none of the units we used to make eKrueger a scenario king are allowed in his theme.
However the Ravager UA offers AD and +2 SPD, added to possibly a little TK you can put Ravagers right in the enemies face from turn 1.
Also with the chieftain, charging with P&S 15 and a corpse token means ravagers will be the damage dealers they always should have been. Easily able to take out units of MoWs and Cetratii or even heavy jacks.

Theme requires doubling of Tharn Ravagers but allows no second UA or WA. The non UA unit will likely not be as awesome but overall the free corpse token will make them worth the points.

This has become a reasonable Dark Horse list that may get you through early rounds against opponents who don't expect it. Against an opponent who knows his stuff, ravagers inherent badness will show through and it won't really accomplish much.


Kromac
Again, this is exactly what was expected. There isn't much to say, the ravagers can all have WA and UA, so are at least playable in casual games.
As far as themes go, this is the one people have been asking about since Hordes was released, on the old forums the question "Can I play an all tharn circle list?" came up twice a month.
Finally this gives a good answer: Yes, its pretty cool!
Its not just a ravagers list though, bloodtrackers, bloodweavers and wolfriders are all permitted along side ravagers and whitemanes.

Theme requires doubling of Ravagers again, without the free corpse token they will struggle but they can at least both have a UA which mitigates their flaws a little.


Mohsar
A bit of a mixed bag, and I think thats partly the downfall. The tier 3 free UA for druids is nice, but the theme allows a random selection of models and gives a slightly crazy set of bonuses.

The upsides are that Woldstalkers are quite good with Mohsar, one of the favoured Mirage units. With the 2" move in control phase and Zephyr they can get a 5" move and still aim or a big 11 move and still shoot. The theme only requires one unit too so it's not a bad start.
The 2 druid and UA are also good, Mohsar can use them for sure though the merits of a second are debatable.
The tier 4 benefit does have the advantage of letting you put PoS templates and there is no restriction about placing them close to each other or close to other terrain so you can really create the board terrain to help.

However the downsides are not good. Most strikingly Mohsar has no decent SoF targets, WoO or Bloodtrackers are both excellent for this but Mohsar only offers Reeves (1 point each) and Druids (>1 point each). I still think I'm missing something about Tier 1 I can't see why it is as it is because its a one off 2" place which just seems off to me.

Theme requires doubling up on druids.


Morvahna
I find this the most interesting theme, I thought it was awesome when I first read it, I was going to say its the best theme in the book but then noticed the light beast only restriction.
Honestly this changes everything. I was of the opinion that circle cannot win without its heavies; we need them for heavy hitting, utility (Geomancy, etc...) and survivability.
Lets look at the list though!

Other than the beast restriction, the options are pretty good. Morvahna likes druids, bloodtrackers and bloodweavers as regrowth targets. Wolf Riders are always nice and ubiquitous shifting stones as sac pawn and restoration targets.

Here we are looking for tier 3, the free UA for the bloodtrackers is nice, nobody will ever need the FA:3 for the units IMO but, especially with no geomancy the upkeeps and not having to spend them on turn 1 is awesome. If needed you can even regrow things killed by an opponent on turn 1!
Overall though this theme brings no win condition. You can do a lot of things but winning the game isn't one of them.
This is a nice, fun and great looking list to play and I have extensive practice with it. It can win but will be at a disadvantage against most opponents, moving up to 50 for 3 max Bloodtrackers will be the test of it.

Theme requires doubling of Bloodweavers. These are a cheap enough unit, good regrowth target and make use of morvahnas feat so this is ok.

Grayle
I think this may be the worst theme list in the game.
The allowed models exclude all the things that make Grayle good, the required models are all things he does nothing useful for.
There is literally no good synergy whatsoever in this theme, the bonuses don't help and certainly aren't worth the huge cost of paying for multiple useless units.
Its lone redeeming feature is that you need only one of each pointless inclusion.


Baldur2
Again, its what we expect from a Baldur theme. We lose out on living beasts but get really great bonuses for constructs. Sadly Baldur 2 is less able to support such a list as he has no way of buffing damage so our P&S 17 Guardian is as high as it goes.
However many users of this theme have said the tanking potential is enough to outweigh the pillow-fistedness.
Strategic use of RotE combined with Rockwall can keep your stuff alive long enough to damage.
The nice addition of the battle engine also helps out with the lack of anti-infantry. The advance move means it can get pixel-in to a zone early, should be hitting stuff with its boosts by turn 2 and +3 ARM is enough to babysit the Fulcrum especially combined with a couple of shield guards.
Speaking of which Wold Watchers in this theme are really amazing. They are among the most survivable models we have even superior to Wold Guardians against many attacks. The points reduction means they are now an aggressively costed 4 points which I think many people agree they always should have been and between their ranged attack, two open fists and free charges, we have found a great home for them.
I have been using them mostly for arm/weapon locks in melee but charges do reasonable damage too and they have a ranged attack for early game (The fertiliser has even been useful from the ranged weapon against non- models.






Krueger2 Wake of Destruction (NQ38)
While not as ubiquitous as I had thought, this list is showing its potential. The amount of control offered in this list is staggering and it has been my go-to list for steamroller for some time. However it still struggles in some areas. The lack of a Battle Engine is an issue as Krueger2 has limited anti-infantry and this would fill that well, he can suffice however using his AoE Lightning Storm, RoF3 Gun and even LotF or Blackclad sprays and multiple Devouring.
Its other main shortcoming is that with the advent of colossals much of Krueges superlative control is rendered moot. Druids pushmepullyou, TK, Gallows and the push part of the feat all do nothing. The feat does give them -2SPD though and the control can be used to get around the colossal to just assassinate. However against an opponent of any experience this will be hard and this list offers basically no way to kill them either.


The theme requires doubling up on Druids, but with a free UA thats not a bad requirement.
Finally, this theme has Eiryss. 'Nuff Said. Maybe that should have been first?

[Amarel]

Excellent summaries and a great starting point for some healthy discussion, I think .

Baldur: As you've pointed out, the Tier 4 benefit isn't amazing; so I find myself thinking that the likely 3 point saving on hitting Tier 4 is the difference between two unit of WoldStalkers (10 - 3 = 7) or one unit of Druids (7). With that being the case, and the fact that the Druids can then grab the UA to become AD themselves (as with the rest of the force, in all likelihood in anything up to 50pts), I can't see myself going beyond Tier 2. Tier 2 is good though, as everything but Baldur you can hold back and then you can ping Baldur up the board on turn one, via a mannikin. Interesting way of playing him, I think.

Cassius: His Theme is a little odd, I agree. But then he seems to me to be our Minion 'Lock anyway, so I think it would have been tricky to get him a decent one anyway.

pKaya: I'll give this a go, but I'm not sure Morraig really fits in there at the level he's at. If you take him, then you're likely to get to Tier 3, at least, and at that point you've likely got at least one unit of Reeves and a unit of WoO to go with him, so you're unlikely to find space for all those Tharn ladies. Tier 1 is interesting though, just to get in a min handy unit at a pretty decent price.

Mohsar: I like this one, it's very interesting and the rewards seem well thought out. The first reward is handier than it originally sounds, it basically pushes your Deployment Zone out 2", but also let's you begin re-positioning right off the bat (for those inevitable times when you find that your deployment has been well countered). The lack of cheap SoF targets is a pain, and the appearance of the Reeves seems a little at odds with the rest of the force - I guess they and the Skinwalkers needed to be pushed in a few places, but I don't see why the WoO don't appear in the same lists as they're all part of the same 'theme'.

Morvahna: Lights only kills this theme. We only have four of them, none of them can hit particularly hard and two of them are, arguably, really not that great. I would have preferred her to be limited to WarpWolves only.

[YabaBaga]

I think Cassius with Skinwalkers kind of work from a fluff point of view. Since they're the 'defensive' unit, you can think of them as being an honor guard and to keep people away from the tree. I think it's interesting that he has no 'character' restrictions for warbeasts (the only one in both games, I think) so it'll be neat to see when we get more characters.

Morvahna's tier is curious and I'm intruiged to see how it can work. Against heavy armor it will struggle and I personally think Argii would be best for that with their Combo Strike. Having up to three units of Bloodtrackers could be fun, though. Have one Prey the enemy caster and keep it in the backfield until the end game.

[Calmdown]

Argii

The plural is Argus, or Arguses if you want to be unambiguous.

It's not a Latin noun, hence it has no reason to be -ii at the end.

Sorry, I hate random use of incorrect Latin grammar (I'm looking at you too, anyone who ever said 'bonii')

[PG_LEJKaya]

T2 is awesome enough for Baldur, really his only issue is no Feral/stalker.
He has megalith and you have to get it right but Megalith can be as good as the other two as a heavy hitter. The main issue is lack of threat range.
Charging for free is obviously awesome, stone skin after is good and only needing one hit at their base DEF should end most models.

[Cyryst]

I really like playing with Morvahna but her theme list does not entice me. Except that i think i read I could field 3 units of blood trackers, but that doesn't make tier 3 because I need blood weavers.
I think its a list that relies on taking out support and going for the sass while trying to avoid the heavies. Something that Morvahna leads to anyway. I thought of doing a single warbeast list with her once anyway (woldwyrd), maybe the tier list would work out, tho I dont think it will be competitive.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I can do her list, I have 2 Bloodweavers, Bloodtrackers and Nuala. I may try it this week, just depends on how many games I can get. I also want to play Cassius and pKayas theme (Since I am one of the few with two reeves units!)

[Cyryst]

As much as I'm considering getting double ups on blood weavers, I can see application with a few warlocks, Mohsar and Cassius. I think Ill end up getting a double on ravagers, just to have a full unit, and a second for eKruegers theme because I'm sure that one is gonna be Brutal!

[Kyuss]

I can't see how 31 weapon master shots in 35pts cannot take down the usual 2-3 heavies which can creep in. Make them the prey target, and bar the Devastator (of the top of my head), you are going to be doing damage as soon as you go above average.

Morv
*Woldwyrd
Full BT's
Full BT's
Full BT's plus UA
Bloodweavers
Shifting Stones

Bloodweavers incase someone is spamming Iron Flesh/Defenders Ward. The most fun list to use? No, but just the sheer output can take most things down.

STILL can't believe they got rid of the FA 1 for the infantry caster

[Amarel]

T2 is awesome enough for Baldur, really his only issue is no Feral/stalker.
He has megalith and you have to get it right but Megalith can be as good as the other two as a heavy hitter. The main issue is lack of threat range.
Charging for free is obviously awesome, stone skin after is good and only needing one hit at their base DEF should end most models.

Exactly. The threat range is the biggest issue, which makes Druids even more useful (and spamming Earth Spikes in the hope of a crit if you're desperate). Certainly makes the timing of Baldur's Feat even more important .

[Ardel]

Cassius tier is pretty awesome imho he has access to megalith and skinwalkers which make an awesome combination

I wrote a 35 pt list which is tier 4 I will be trying this out this weekend
megalith
Stalker
full skinwalkers
full skinwalkers
LotF

Its small but brutal LotF and stalker work well with hellmouth and meg with skinwalkers is ace his animus gets round there biggest flaw (mat 6) and he can geomancy curse of shadows that’s effectively 10 mat 8 pow 15 arm 16/18 skinwalkers forcing themselves down your opponents throat (combined melee attack if you really need it thou cant see it being an issue)

As for the tier bonuses themselves +2" on DZ, 3 soul tokens and first turn stealth which applies to the AD tree just seems to be the icing on the cake
Combined with the ability to pop a 20” forest on turn two seems fantastic for scenario play also

[Thunder_God]

I can't see how 31 weapon master shots in 35pts cannot take down the usual 2-3 heavies which can creep in. Make them the prey target, and bar the Devastator (of the top of my head), you are going to be doing damage as soon as you go above average.

Replying so I'll remember to calculate this when I get home. Let's say 10/20, with 34 life, and prey?

[Calmdown]

At 10 DEF 20 ARM target, effective MAT 8 and P+S 11 including Prey, dealing 3D6 damage with weapon master.

31 weapon master shots needing 3+ to hit
Hit chance = 35/36 = 97.2% (skews up a bit with Nuala's +1 RAT iirc, but all of the hit numbers are obvious roundings anyway)
30.14 hits on average
Normalised to 30

Average damage per shot = 11+(3*3.5)-20 = 1.5

So 30 Bloodtrackers hitting a Khador jack would deal approximately 45 damage.

For a DEF 12 ARM 20 target, you deal 42 damage (28 hits at 1.5 damage)
For a DEF 11 ARM 19 target, you deal 75 damage (30 hits at 2.5 damage)
For a DEF 12 ARM 19 target, you deal 70 damage (28 hits at 2.5 damage)
For a DEF 12 ARM 18 target, you deal 98 damage (28 hits at 3.5 damage)
For a DEF 13 ARM 18 target, you deal 91 damage (26 hits at 3.5 damage)

(I think that covers a good range of average jacks?)

And remember, getting 31 Bloodtrackers at 7" range is going to be either or both of a) difficult or b) tactical suicide.

I'm not convinced that Bloodtrackers alone will be happy about fighting heavies above armour 18, given how many you can bring to bear on a given target and given you wont always have all 31 available. And even at armour 18 (Menoth and Cryx jacks) its by no means a good idea to try this out, even though the numbers for ARM 18 look much better on paper (and even on paper its not *that* impressive).

[magi]

I'm not convinced that Bloodtrackers alone will be happy about fighting heavies above armour 18, given how many you can bring to bear on a given target and given you wont always have all 31 available. And even at armour 18 (Menoth and Cryx jacks) its by no means a good idea to try this out, even though the numbers for ARM 18 look much better on paper (and even on paper its not *that* impressive).

I think that's why it might be better to just tie down the enemy heavy(s) with your regrowth unit. Just be careful of tramples.

[Thunder_God]

31 Bloodtrackers are not going to take down two Khadoran heavies. You need 17 to get over 50% to drop 1. And this is with Prey.
Against ARM 19, it's a different story, with 58% for 13 BTs with prey to deal 34 damage or more. So killing 2.5 is a go. And if they only have 32 life, all the better.
But no, throwing them against a khadoran jack, well, they can do it, but against 3? And well, think of the points. 31 Bloodtrackers all to kill one target and somewhat ding another, when the one you kill is not the caster? Heh.

(Assuming they had a shared damage grid, so there was no "overkill", 31 BTs would have 34.313% to deal 68 damage to 10/20 DEF/ARM)

[Xylon]

Morvhana Theme force is scary vs other Hordes armies, Bloodweavers can destroy Heavy War Beasts. Also this list is deceptively fast almost everything is speed 7 or greater the exceptions being Morvhana herself, Druids (who can AD), Shifting Stones (Who Shift 8), the Druid Wilder, The Wayfarer (Who can teleport), and 2 of the 4 Warbeast she can possible take. I hope we do see some other light warbeasts though.

[smw356]

The real problem with morvahna's theme is that it just expands upon her list of bad matchups. I honestly just do not understand at all why she is limited to lights. It makes no sense fluff wise or in how the faction plays.

[Menoth's Gambit]

Krueger the Stormwrath
Note: This is based on the assumption that the unit gets a corpse token per member.

Anyone know if there has been a clarification on this for eKrueger's tier? I also am assuming this will be the case. The additional unit of Tharn Ravagers on my paint table are also assuming this will be the case.

[PG_LEJKaya]

StormLORD, dunno how that happened, its correct in the original.

Since the infernals have commented on one issue maybe there will be an answer for this?

[Tsenzei]

I suppose I may as well weigh in with my undoubtedly useless and uninformed opinions. Not that these opinions are based on my personal sense of what is fun and amusing, not necessarily what is competitive.

Baldur
Needs more rocks. No, really. An FA increase in Shifting Stones (or, better yet, Stone Keepers) or Sentry Stones would have been plenty welcome, and/or some sort of "bargain" for Sentry Stones (buy 3, get 1 free?). As it is, it still has plenty of non-fleshy things to use. More than that, I would have liked a new Wold unit in the book, and, of course, also within Baldur's tier list.

For myself, the main trade-off is Bloodtrackers, who work so very well with Baldur's spells. However, Woldstalkers and Druids are adequate replacements, though each within their own method. For most, Tier 4 will be a freebie once they have obtained tier 3. Of course, this is largely true of most tier lists (at least in Circle). The benefits are mostly neat, and will help with Baldur's strengths: Good Construct 'beast play, Scenarios, and still allows for plenty of flexibility within both list building and within your on the table options.

Cassius
At 35 points, I can have a semi-effective list with 6 War Wolves. Six. War. Wolves. I am highly amused. At 50, I can get a whole 9. Granted, I will probably never, ever, buy that many War Wolves, but I might proxy it some time in a fun game and see how it goes. In fact, I would say that Cassius' theme force is better for War Wolf spam than pKaya's.

Beyond that it's a bit ecclectic, which is both good and bad. It lacks focus, which can confuse or mute the strengths of each benefit. The main complain I see is that Skinwalkers are not terribly grand with Cassius. However, Cassius has relatively little in obvious synergies anyway, so this is not too much of a problem. The main trade here is not using Cavalry or Ravagers, which are both quite good with Cassius.

pKaya
Wolves! Reeves! Warpwolves! Oh my! The problem I have with this is that you can't have as many War Wolves in her theme Force as you can in Cassius. Cheaper Reeves is awesome however. The other, less important problem, is that it wants you to use Reeves and War Wolves for half the benefits, and it has Morraig thrown in for "good measure" but not all that much room Wolves of Orboros in lists smaller than 50. At least to my sensibilities. Still fun though.

eKaya
Play moar warbeasts. Ideally, you should be getting that Skinwalker for effectively free (not going to happen most of the time, but hey). It's a little boring, in a way. More so than Baldur, which it shares some similarities too. But then I've never been a fan of Kaya, to be perfectly honest.

pKrueger
I actually don't use Druids much, to be honest. However, they have a lot of fun abilities, and as such, the prospect of playing a huge number of blackclads is almost dizzying given how many on the table options the theme force will present. This, I consider to be a good thing.

eKrueger
Ravenous Ravaging Ravagers are among my favorite Tharn-themed medium-based infantry, and, as such, I am intrigued. However, I think for myself, I'd rather just play Kromac. eKrueger still seems underwhelming, even with his plethora of redundant (in a good way) movement tricks.

Kromac
See: eKrueger. Though the benefits are different, and technically so are the available units and such, to me these two theme forces are too similar in composition, if not necessarily in style. Still, it could be fun, and I do loves me my Tharn.

Mohsar
Mohsar, like Cassius, is a little bit ecclectic. However, I think his theme force is just plain better for his style of play. Since I haven't played either extensively however, I could be wrong. Mohsar's theme force seems like it'll be quite enjoyable, should I choose to play it.

Morvahna
Probably the second biggest trade-off next to eKrueger. However, I think that not only is her theme quite fun, but that it is actually quite strong. Tier 3 more than makes up for the lack of Wardens.


EDIT: I got tired half-way through, I may go back and fill it out a bit more later.

Teehee, 6 War Wolves at 35 points.

[Magx]

Anyone know if there has been a clarification on this for eKrueger's tier? I also am assuming this will be the case. The additional unit of Tharn Ravagers on my paint table are also assuming this will be the case.

and what about eKaya's tier list with her no character warbeast restriction when she comes with Laris ?

[RuneGrey]

and what about eKaya's tier list with her no character warbeast restriction when she comes with Laris ?

This is knitpicking, since Kaya and Laris are pretty much a total package. Its like saying Mortenebra doesn't get to take Delryss because her theme list doesn't allow Skarlocks.

[edonil]

Let's put it this way- per the rules, can you take eKaya without Laris? They're a package deal.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I played Baldurs theme at 35.

Baldur
Megalith
Warden
Wyrd
Woldstalkers
Woldstalkers
Sentry Stone
Sentry Stone
Shifting Stones

I think it will be great at 50 points with maybe druids added.

I played using the woldstalkers to move up, shoot and retreat. I put stoneskin on one unit for the ARM until the heavies needed it (They cast it on themselves.

The Sentry Stones were really good. I got one unit to fire off 3 sprays into some errants the other provided forests quite well to cover the other flank.

I managed the win by trampling megalith with animus up right to contact Kreoss and bought an attack on him for -5 DEF and Baldur was 14" away so the warden cast stone skin on baldur who forest walked for the assassination.

So you lose Bloodtrackers, Baldur makes BTs awesome so its hard to justify the theme list but I think the ARM of the woldstalkers and the possibility of concentrated fire make them able to fill that role. They are the same cost and can do real damage to mid-high ARM targets.
Losing living beasts is also a hit but Megalith can certainly make up for that and a warden can fill in as needed too, with free charges they can get in the heavy hits that you usually use the warpwolves for.

Overall, nice theme list, not what people expect from circle which can also be a bonus.

[smw356]

The problem I have with Baldurs' theme is that while it works acceptably, it never works quite as well as a stereotypical baldur non theme list.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I think its true if you just take the regular baldur stuff and adapt to the theme. The theme changes how you play to a much greater degree than most theme forces (Other than pKaya!). It emphasises Baldurs existing control abilities and also makes the list faster (Only Baldur doesn't AD or Advance move and the sentry stones 20" deploy really is great).
In scenario you really can get there first, prevent the opponent getting there with your control elements and easily deal with anything that manages to get through with the capabilities you have.

[Tsenzei]

The problem I have with Baldurs' theme is that while it works acceptably, it never works quite as well as a stereotypical baldur non theme list.

Could you tell us about your play experiences in more detail? Perhaps write up some battle reports. While there are no Gnarlhorns/Ferals to back up the constructs, and no Bloodtrackers, the prospect of almost everything being in the middle of the field and controlling the center of the board just seems very strong, so I'm curious about the specific differences, as I've not yet tried out the full Tier list for Baldur.

[Blaque]

So far have played three themes so far. During my, "Play ten games of Cassius" run, I got about four games in with his. Played about three of eKaya and one of pKaya so far.

Cassius' is actually not too bad. The free souls help a crapload with him I find. You an still take Druids and Shifting Stones, which helps his general run. ANd he plays all the same warbeasts I was taking with him in non-themed lists anyhow. Need to probably give soem more run with it, but he's interesting, not going to lie.

We ahv ehad eKaya's and it still works. Won last game I played with her, resulting in back-tramping Ferals, a swipe at Sloan and then Kaya stabbing her do death with Flank.

The pKaya game had two issues. Ran her with two min Reeves units and a full Wolves of Orboros one. I will first say that PC 5 Reeves are really nice. I'd pay for them more if they were 5/9 myself. The first issue was, though, is the range-focus is weird. I'm not use to having so many RNG 12 guns around and so I need to work on that, me thinks. Occultation on Gatormen is also its own load of crap, but that's its own thing.

The other is clutter. There were simply too many models around and i found myself getting gummed-up a lot. The Wolf of Orboros and Reeve UAs helped in this, but still had LOS issues a lot. I Need to just learn ro manage the models more I think. But I did notice War Wolves got clogged a lot and so need to work on that.

Will say, most i got out of pKaya in a bit. Her army is interesting enough for me to give her more table time, and the list's infantry horde nature may actually mean that if I can get the timing down, it might be able to do some nice attrition.

And stuff.

[PG_LEJKaya]

If it helps, I managed 6 War Wolves by keeping them all back in the middle together. When I identified targets for them they can run up and get the charge through Sic'em. With their huge move they can easily run past reeves or hunters to get in charge range.
I used this to, for example get a opportunity shot on a cryx arcnode which I knew would be an issue, I popped a quick 3 man CRA at it and triggered 2 sic'em which took out the arc node.
Similarly a bloat thrall, it was landing AoE on my stealthed reeves so I moved a wolf up and sic'emd it with a hunter solo.
They can be used as very powerful ranged attacks.

This way you don't get the double hit (Charge, kill something then sic'em so each wolf gets 2 kills) but I think the flexibility is amazing.

[Tsenzei]

Posted a list of lists based on Theme Forces as samplers here: http://privateerpressforums.com/show...157#post640157 *

Anyway, while it wouldn't work for pKaya, the way I envision handling War Wolf clutter with Cassius is to run them up the sides, using CoS to bypass things blocking the charge, or even to open up the firing line and have the wolves just do a complete flank around the rest of the battle-line.

For pKaya, as you can see, I decided to just ignore War Wolves, and focus on the units and models at hand. Though I'm sure I'd include more War Wolves at 50pts or higher I just don't think they are essential. The cheaper Reeves and other benefits are good enough to stand on their own I feel.


*(Does not include eKrueger or Mohsar. I don't really care for eKrueger over Kromac, even though they are different in benefit, if not in composition, and I just don't know what I want to do with Mohsar's theme force.)

[Amarel]

I played Baldurs theme at 35.

Baldur
Megalith
Warden
Wyrd
Woldstalkers
Woldstalkers
Sentry Stone
Sentry Stone
Shifting Stones

I think that's one of the two best options. The other is to take out both sets of Shrimps and a Sentry Stone for Druids (with UA) and a Stonekeeper. Less 'value' without hitting the latter tiers, but it does give AD to your unit at the expense of it on the Woldwyrd (generally) and some protection to the Shifters (along with another AoE).

EDIT: Yes, that makes a 34pt list (as I realise I haven't mentioned this), but I've, thus far, found the Stonekeeper to be more useful than a second set of Stones.

[Brandubh]

The plural is Argus, or Arguses if you want to be unambiguous.

It's not a Latin noun, hence it has no reason to be -ii at the end.

Sorry, I hate random use of incorrect Latin grammar (I'm looking at you too, anyone who ever said 'bonii')

Wouldn't the plural of Argus be Argi (second declension)? Argus, Argi, n? Just asking.

*****************************

Back on topic -
Nice write up LEJ, I'll post more when I'm not in the middle of finals. I've played the eKreuger, Baldur and eKaya tiers so far. I have trades coming which will let me run pKaya, pKrueger, and Mohsar tiers. So I plan on testing them out a bit too.

To anyone who has run eKrueger's tier 4 list in a scenario game, I'm wondering how you're protecting your Tharn Ravagers. Personally, I'm really liking the idea of having a line of P+S15 heart-tokened Ravagers 30" up the board on turn 1, but Krueger can't keep up and I'm worried about them getting squished before they get into melee. So if you've got advice / experiences on how to deal with this, please let me know.

[Menoth's Gambit]

So far, I have only been working with the eKrueger tier list. Run it a few times. It is a little tricky to pull off, and you have to be aggressive in ensuring you get your charges in first. That being said, it is a lot of fun to play, if you are in that sort of mind set.

The list has some bad match ups, but, it can power its way through some lists. I have gone back and forth with min and max units of Ravagers for my beast line ups.

[blueskin]

I agree with anyone saying that eKaya T's are the best. I still need to be convinced about the Skinwalkers though. Haven't tried them, but I'm going to proxy them this weekend. What do they bring to the table? Why do you guys like em?

[Kineath]

I really like the eKaya tier, she's really great for scenarios and fast action with a lot of and advanced move. I struggle a littlebit with the skinwalkers, eKaya cant give them +2 arm. Against gunlines ARM 16 dies to pow 10, specially if its the only target available with all the and camouflage. Arm 18 also isn't that great against high pow charge attacks or charge attacks, yet the don't always have enough speed to engage the enemy, usually falling an inch short

when they do make it in melee with low pow infantry its great fun.

All thingd considered I had some good battles with her tier.

[PG_LEJKaya]

OK, so here was my eKaya listbefore the theme was spoiled:

Kaya
Laris
Stalker
Gnarlhorn
Shadowhorn
Druids & UA
Wilder
Blackclad Wayfarer

Now looking at the theme list I have to drop the wayfarer and in return get 3 Skinwalkers with advance move, AD on battlegroup, +1 on first turn roll. Awesome deal.

As for what you do with them in game, play them as you would if you had the ARM buff, they will be fine. Run them to engage stuff as soon as possible, they don't damage stuff anyway and with +2 SPD can run pretty much as far as most guns shoot.
For scenario play they really earn their keep.

[PG_Macguffin]

I would just like to put it out there ahead of time that Morvahna is my favorite caster and I think her tier list is pretty insane. I am also on 1 hour of sleep so if this is rambly or incoherent at times I apologize in advance.

It is best not to look at what you are unable to do with this tier but to instead look at all the rules it allows you to bend or break. Consider it a challenge to your playstyle to use something other than a cracked out Feral or Stalker to rip through heavy targets.

Things to note:
The Gorax and Argus are the "Heavies" for the tier. The argus can combo bite for Pow18's on a 4pt beast with the Gorax animus (Though the Bloodtrackers have always been and will always be the workhorse of a Morvahna list). The woldwatchers are a royal pain with this tier for scenario play as they can start 20" up the board. Considering trying a Woldwyrd spam list with her as it definitely puts the pressure on opposing casters and helps to protect her upkeeps from removal.

The most important thing about Morvahna's tier is that she allows you to take up to 3, count that, 3 units of Bloodtrackers... For those of you that don't realize it, the Bloodtrackers are extremely efficient killing machines and enmass they can and will bring down even Khador heavies. With tier 4 they can start 20" up the board. Prey is one of the stronger abilities in the game in the hands of a skilled player and to be able to have 4 units with it make it very difficult to try to deny a prey target.

Between the Bloodweavers and Woldwyrds and Druids the list is in strong control of the battlefield if this is how you chose to play it.

Beginning the game with all of Morvahna's upkeeps in play for free goes miles to helping against antiupkeep lists as it can put you drastically ahead of the curve in terms of resources.

[EccentricLefty]

Now that Krueger the Stormlord has Wake of Destruction as well as Devourer's Host, would someone be able to give a review of Wake of Destruction ans well as a compare and contrast? Do these very different lists demonstrate the caster's versatility, both performing well? Or is one far superior to the other? Devourer's Host, his original theme force, introduced a play style very contrary to how many ran him. Now that a list closer the usual eKreuger list has been released, does it play better to his strengths or does it limit him in a way the first list sought to liberate him from?
Thanks ^.^

[Blaque]

Did this require the necromancy? Just sayin'.

And stuff.