Cygnar v. Khador - fluff/history, not tactics

[RoyalAssassin]

Hi all.

My roommates play Khador and Cygnar, and, as I'm sure you can imagine, I am routinely treated to "Get off our land!" on one side and "It's not your land!" on the other. Being a Legion player, I'm not too strong on the history involved (we're mostly concerned with snacking on dragons, and neither Khador nor Cygnar have any dragons to interest us). So, before I take sides on this, I thought I'd check in with Red HQ and see if I can get to the truth of it.

The story, as I'm given to understand it, goes something like this:

• Khador and Cygnar and some other, unimportant people hold a meeting.
  
• At the meeting, everyone agrees on national boundary lines on a map, and everyone signs a treaty (Corvis?) saying that these lines are where things are and everyone's okay with that.
  
• Since that treaty only ran to the end of the signatories lineage, one year it came up that no bloodline had male heirs, and, the treaty thus invalidated, Khador opens fire on Llael/Ord/Cygnar.

What I don't understand is why Khador would have signed off on the treaty in the first place, if it was unfair? What piece of the historical/political puzzle am I missing?

[vytzka]

Hi all.

My roommates play Khador and Cygnar, and, as I'm sure you can imagine, I am routinely treated to "Get off our land!" on one side and "It's not your land!" on the other. Being a Legion player, I'm not too strong on the history involved (we're mostly concerned with snacking on dragons, and neither Khador nor Cygnar have any dragons to interest us). So, before I take sides on this, I thought I'd check in with Red HQ and see if I can get to the truth of it.

The story, as I'm given to understand it, goes something like this:

• Khador and Cygnar and some other, unimportant people hold a meeting.
• At the meeting, everyone agrees on national boundary lines on a map, and everyone signs a treaty (Corvis?) saying that these lines are where things are and everyone's okay with that.

Sort of. Only our diplomats were a bunch of corrupt village idiots who were more interested in partying than negotiotiations. Or something of the sort.

Possibly relevant point is that the borders agreed upon were administrative division lines set by the Orgoths beforehand. Those lines were of course not originally drawn to be fair to the original inhabitants. Namely, earlier Khardic tribes had lived a lot further south than where the border now was.

Since that treaty only ran to the end of the signatories lineage, one year it came up that no bloodline had male heirs, and, the treaty thus invalidated, Khador opens fire on Llael/Ord/Cygnar.

Validity of the treaty was not negated by the ambassador lines dying out, but that fact gave some moral support to the revisionists.

What I don't understand is why Khador would have signed off on the treaty in the first place, if it was unfair? What piece of the historical/political puzzle am I missing?

Short version: diplomats were idiots and/or corrupt.

[LACK OF SUBTLETY]

The treaties were also drawn up at the end of a long and difficult war that had both Khadorans and Cygnarans joining forces to repel the Orgoth, who had been around for a long time and had divided the land up into their own administrative regions.

So two major factors were involved.

1) The people who signed the treaties had grown up with those boundaries.

2) Everyone was exhausted from war and not ready to fight over them again.

Cygnar took advantage of this combination to get the Khadoran reps to sign. It was only when true scholars of our history realized that they had abandoned our pre-Orgoth borders that their error was realized.

A real world counterpart to this would ironically be Soviet Russia after World War II.

Russia - "We have come to liberate you from Nazi oppression"

Eastern Europe - "Hooray!"

Russia - "But now your land belongs to us, welcome to the Soviet Union."

[MostlyHarmless]

Also, victory and possession make 9/10th's of the law. Sure, to the dastardly Southerners, this war was in breach of the Corvis Treaties, but they couldn't uphold it, could they? Besides, there isn't a UN equivalent in the Iron Kingdoms to *make* Khador retreat from Llael and the Thornwood, so there's not a lot that can be done about it.

[Snottlebocket]

All the talk about treaties aside, what it comes down to is this. There's some very large and angry men freezing their arses of while looking at nicer, warmer, more productive land down south that they know were theirs once upon a time.

At the end of the day when your work is done and your balls have thawed, it's very easy to say "Those bleedin' foreigners have wronged us and that land is rightfully ours! Let's go take it back or would you rather spend another winter eating game and watching your fingers turn black and fall off while you work? For Khador!".

[Ravnak]

I think the obvious one to look at is:

Russia (Khador) want more land for her peoples. The workers must eat!

England/france/spain (Cygnar - which reminds me of all 3 colonials in its naval theme) are not pleased. They move to stop the threat.


Most wargame stuff lightly mirrors the real wars of the world...

[RoyalAssassin]

So...

Cygnar has nice tasty land, Khador has weapons of war and a desire for nice, tasty land. It's not so much a matter of may-or-may-not-be-rightful claims on territory as it is war launched for the sake of seizing desired resources? I'm good with that, I just want to make sure that I'm presenting that correctly when this discussion breaks out in my living room again

[vytzka]

I think the obvious one to look at is:

Russia (Khador) want more land for her peoples. The workers must eat!

Actually their reasons for war parallel WW1 Germany more - having missed the worldwide landgrab by England and French in the second half of XIX century and itching to get "their place under the sun". WW2 Germany was also somewhat about "living space" but Khador lacks most of the associated baggage (and thank Privateer Press for that).

Which is what I really like about the setting - Khador is just enough of Red Alert Russia in Steampunk D&D, but is also deeper than that.

[Gnoa]

I think the obvious one to look at is:

Russia (Khador) want more land for her peoples. The workers must eat!

England/france/spain (Cygnar - which reminds me of all 3 colonials in its naval theme) are not pleased. They move to stop the threat.


Most wargame stuff lightly mirrors the real wars of the world...

I think there is some merit in this point. As large as Khador is, the land is not rich or warm enough to farm a great deal of it. Therefore the Khador have to rely more on hunting and fishing to gain the food they need. Historically speaking, this is not enough to allow an empire to grow or fully support itself. Trade is an option, though not a good one for Khador.

Ryn (Llael) lies closer to the richer soil that Khador needs to support its people. The further south you go, the richer the land.

Cygnar and the Protectorate have done what they feel they need to do to better their people (A coup and jihad respectively), so why is Khador the evil oppressors for wanting better than for their people.

[Avecrien]

We once held most of the land, a proud conglomerate of many different ethnicities working together for human kind. We stalled the Orgoth invasion, suffering brutally at their hands. We were betrayed when we allied with the southerners to build the colossals that helped push the Orgoth away. we were coerced into a deceitful treaty by those who had used the Orgoth to destroy our military industry.
They left us with naught but rock and ice, stripping us from our ancestral resources and dignity. These thieves envy the heart of the empire so they swindled the fat of our land. Still our blood flows stronger and we haven't grown complacent as they have. The time has come to take back what is ours and restore the glory of our, all of our, Motherland.

Cygnar sits on much of our ancestral land. And these brigands regularly harass our artificial borders still! Llael? We have royalty from that province serving under the High Kommandant. Why would these people defy their own true leadership? That region has historically been known for biting the hand that feeds it, but we have always returned order to them with kindness and let be forgotten their indiscretions.
The Protectorate was given resources and defenses in good faith and betrayed the empress herself! They have perverted our religion and sullied it with the treachery common of the south. They wage a rebellion against those who rebel against the empire. Between our beliefs and our mutual enemies, perhaps some accord can be reached if they are willing to recant.


...there's some 'factual' information about how Khador got screwded during and after the Orgoth were fought off, but I have to go find it again.

[Mitch]

Wow. So this is all the blab blab blab that my friend who got me into warmachine was yammering on about for the last 2 years?


Should have started playing sooner!

[vytzka]

...there's some 'factual' information about how Khador got screwded during and after the Orgoth were fought off, but I have to go find it again.

For a start, when Cygnar started building Colossals, dwarves of Rhul who invented them first didn't want to give the plans to Khards under any circumstances and when our people managed to get them and get some factories going someone from the South actually tipped Orgoths off about it. Cue death and destruction on epic scale over here while southerners happily finished their giant robots and got ready for war with no real hurry. This is not even our propaganda, this is about as firm an OOC fact in-setting as any.

Every other threachery aside, I don't think enough heads have rolled for that stuff yet.

[Avecrien]

I had included them using the Orgoth against us to cripple our military so they could force a false treaty on us.
But it bears repeating again.

They used the Orgoth against us to cripple our military so they could force a false treaty on us!

Basically, after an epoch of the Motherland shielding them from rampaging barbarians and devourer worshipers(which we civilized into productive citizens by the way), they use our mutual oppressors to secure the most temporary of upper hands in order to rob us of prime territory.

I say the people are not at fault, but their counterfeit nations and venomous leaders should be captured for trial-by-Butcher.

[Appolus]

Yeah... I have to go with that as my driving motivation against the south: they willingly sent the Orgoth into our secret refuges and covert factories in an effort to ruin us, buy themselves respite from the war, and destroy our capability to create colossals. They then forced the borders imposed by our slave-masters onto us, robbing us of the fertile jewel of the Khardic empire, forcing us to scrape a meager living out of the tundra. All this AND they created a pair of puppet empires (Ord and Llael) to act as buffers so they wouldn't have to dirty their hands in holding their ill-gotten gains.

We won't even talk about the fact that they are religiously intolerant bigots who interned and slaughtered Menites, kicking them out into the harsh and unforgiving wastes. Basically, Cygnar uses the blackest of means to eliminate their enemies before shoving the remainder into harsh environments, hoping they will die.

If they had concentrated on the REAL threat instead and crushed the Scharde islands, the whole Cryx thing would barely be a problem.

[Avecrien]

And yet they're the good guys.

[Demeritus]

Reading this thread has given me a an all new hatred for my Northern rivals. They kicked us out of court and replaced our priests....

*insert South Park redneck voice* Dey took ma job!

[riven5]

Yeah, Cygnar uses a smile and a pen to conquer and brutalize those they consider different. Khador uses an axe. It's just as vicious, but a lot more honest.

[Defenstrator]

Interesting. Faction bias actually extends into the fluff. Because from my take on reading the RPG, the worldguide, and all the warmachine fluff, is that Khador doesn't have a leg to stand on.

All the territorial claims of Khador are based on an empire that existed before the Orgoth came. An empire that fell under the Orgoth. After the orgoth were replled the various factions were more than happy to keep their borders because 1) they had been set for a couple hundered years at that point and had become the defacto broders and 2) everybody that was now free of the old Khador empire wanted to keep it that way.

This is one of the reasons for all the tension with Vlad. He's the prince of what was once an independent kingdom. It was conquered by the first Khador empire and then split with the Corvis treaties between Khador and Llael. With the Llael half back in Khadoran hands there seems to be a great fear that Vlad will simply annex the two halves and recreate the Kingdom of Umberey.

And of course Khador has grabbed a fair bit of land that it had no claim on before. By rights Port Vladovar should belong to Ord, and the actions of the people of southern Khador that wanted to rejoin the kingdom they were traditionally part of is how the Butcher earned his title.

[Snottlebocket]

And yet they're the good guys.

Hey we do the same thing with the U.S.A. Between the genocide against native americans, slavery, cold war, gulf war, the current war's and god knows how many dirty little incidents, they've been more than happy to brutally enforce their best interests throughout their history and world wide.

Most of the time they're still considered to be the good guys though.

[zalabar]

To be fair, Defenstrator, I can make a pretty nice arguement that Tzeench is the hero in any of the Warhammer sets.


Regarding other pertinant points; The rebellion against the Orgoth did have the Khadorian equiviliant to the Collossal factory in Corvis suffer brutal attack and raid by the Orgoth. Cannon doesn't state that the Southerners actually fed the information to the Orgoth, but rather that there is a heated debate on the issue. Like a lot of things that happened then, the exact answer is more than a little shakey.

Cygnar against Cryx is certainly a goal of the current Administration; Leto is quoted as such. Ancient-pre-Cygnar was a bit more concerned with the soul devouring undead masters of the mainland than the ones who had draconic backup and about 10 miles of ocean to wade through. When the Orgoth made landfall, they became the bad guys, bar none.

Llael is an interesting history; shortly after the Orgoth slashed and burned their way home, the Khardic horselords went out to re-affirm their ancient holdings. Llael was as swayed as anyone by the military, nationalist, and cultural history but was left without a functioning military, surrounded by the monsterous remains of the Orgoth, semi-hostile trolls, and other things that go bump in the night. They hired mercs, and the Horselords were out for a great while longer than anyone expected, eventually leading to Llael deciding they were now a soverign nation.

And as far as good guys... that's always relative to space, time, and personal morality. In the past, Cygnar held treaties, organized trade agreements, gave land to dissenters, and attempted to hold the peace. Their conflicts were largely internal, sparked by tyrant kings and political intregue. In the past Khador conquered additional regions, engaged in constant attacks against neighbors, recruited Devourer worshipers for the attacks, and turned every resource available to prove that they were a force to be feared. Their conflicts were... actually, just about everywhere. The Protectorate started off as an attempted coup that went badly enough to spark a civil war, and then turned into a pilgrimage so they could torture themselves according to their beliefs instead of what the law considered excessive. They then turned around and started conquering, building weapons and generally ignoring the written word that Cygnar uses so well.

Cryx eats souls. Cryx has always eaten souls. Its what they do. If I have to explain how writing a treaty is less evil than eating souls, the terrorists have won. Please, don't let the terrorists win.

[admanb]

Basically it's the same stupid-goddamn-reason that any neverending war keeps going on (see: the entire Middle East). 400 years ago we were mad at them for whatever so we invaded, which mad them made so 350 years ago they invaded, which made us mad so 300 years ago we invaded. Blah blah blah everyone who was remotely involved in the original issue is dust in the ground, but those damn peasants are getting uppity about the fact that their quality of life hasn't improved in 20 years, so let's go invade somebody!

[LACK OF SUBTLETY]

Interesting. Faction bias actually extends into the fluff. Because from my take on reading the RPG, the worldguide, and all the warmachine fluff, is that Khador doesn't have a leg to stand on.

All the territorial claims of Khador are based on an empire that existed before the Orgoth came. An empire that fell under the Orgoth. .

And an empire that has been re-established under Empress Ayn. The old government has been returned and we are re-acquiring our old borders.

While Cygnarans may be willing to discard their government, allowing greedy brothers to steal the throne from the rightful heir, Khador's empress is the unquestioned rightful ruler of her lands and her claim to our stolen homelands extends back through the ages to the time of the original empire.

[Wayton]

And an empire that has been re-established under Empress Ayn. The old government has been returned and we are re-acquiring our old borders.

While Cygnarans may be willing to discard their government, allowing greedy brothers to steal the throne from the rightful heir, Khador's empress is the unquestioned rightful ruler of her lands and her claim to our stolen homelands extends back through the ages to the time of the original empire.

I suppose we should ignore the fact that Queen Ayn's family stole the crown from the Tzepescis (hey Vlad!), who in turn stole it from the King who signed the Corvis Treaties?

[Techcasualty]

in other words:

There is no such thing as innocence, merely degrees of guilt

[Defenstrator]

While Cygnarans may be willing to discard their government, allowing greedy brothers to steal the throne from the rightful heir, Khador's empress is the unquestioned rightful ruler of her lands and her claim to our stolen homelands extends back through the ages to the time of the original empire.

An original empire which stole its land from the people who were happy to be free of it. The problem Ayn has is that she's a megalomaniac that can't get it throgh her head that was then, this is now. And the people she is invading don't like her Empire and will spend all their time trying to destroy it. Between the Llael resistence, the Northern Crusade, Cryx in the Thornwood, the Retribution looking for their god, and Everblight looking for the same god, I think Khador is in for a rather bad year.

[MostlyHarmless]

Of course Khador's in a bad year. Thing is, is that, right of the moment, it looks like they'll be holding onto what they've got.

Cygnar's going to have a bad year. Losing a war is bad, politically, even if you win another one in the south. Then there's the neverending issues with the Trollkin Kriels, and the Skorne, too. Don't forget the Cryx, who still raid their shores.

The Protectorate's gonna have a bad year. No doubt there's bound to be a few people who aren't happy that Severius is the Hierarch. Also, they have Skorne issues, and Cygnar issues, not to mention the usual Cryxian raids.

Cryx is gonna have a... well, not necessarily bad year. They've got their forces in the Thornwood, but I don't know how far they are away from reinforcements. Also, I'm not entirely sure whether the usual infighting between the Lich Lords and their servants will re-occur.

The Retribution is gonna have a bad year. Yes, they're raiding Khador. Yes, they're striking at the human nations more openly now. However, they're still going to take casualties, and Khador alone could probably afford to lose five soldiers to every Iosan that is killed, and still be kicking.

As for Empress Ayn, what she's doing is merely part of the usual Khadoran movement towards nationalism that the Ayn dynasty has been utilising for the past sixty years. She doesn't *need* to care that the people that she's invaded and conquered don't like her. Really, it'd be like if the Nazi's hadn't been repelled from most of Europe in WWII, and instead reached an... understanding of sorts with the Allies. Sure the Llaelese hate the situation now, but when you ask the average Joe to fight against the oppressors, when he *knows* that there's a good chance he'll be caught and killed (along with the rest of their family), then odds are reasonable that he'll balk at it. Besides, despite what people and propaganda says, Khador isn't treating the citizens badly. Like a people that need to be watched, in case they rebel, yes, but not out and out cruelty - at least, not without a specific reason.

[vytzka]

An original empire which stole its land from the people who were happy to be free of it. The problem Ayn has is that she's a megalomaniac that can't get it throgh her head that was then, this is now.

No, that was the problem with the mad king Vygor.

Empress Ayn has yet to be proven to be a megalomaniac and not, in fact, a ruler fully capable of achieving everything she has planned.

[MostlyHarmless]

Well, she didn't end up holding all of Llael. There is that, I suppose. Still, booting Cygnar out of their northern holdings and cities, up to Corvis is a reasonably good job, and better than many Khadoran monarchs could claim.

[LACK OF SUBTLETY]

I suppose we should ignore the fact that Queen Ayn's family stole the crown from the Tzepescis (hey Vlad!), who in turn stole it from the King who signed the Corvis Treaties?

Shhh...of course we ignore it...how else does propaganda work?

[MostlyHarmless]

I suppose we should ignore the fact that Queen Ayn's family stole the crown from the Tzepescis (hey Vlad!), who in turn stole it from the King who signed the Corvis Treaties?

Just as Vinter the First 'stole' the Cygnaran Crown from the King before him?

I doubt Vlad has any problems with the Vanars on the throne. His family had their time in the sun with it, and then they eventually lost it in the usual dynastic struggles that characterised Khador up until the last 100 years or so. Hell, Khador's *improved* significantly under the Vanars. Scientific, social, and economic progress has flourished under them, and national unity has never been stronger. It's only really other nations that haven't been so hot on the Vanars, but that's okay - Khador doesn't really care what the victims think.

[Defenstrator]

Empress Ayn has yet to be proven to be a megalomaniac and not, in fact, a ruler fully capable of achieving everything she has planned.

Dude, anyone who stomps onto her balcony and declares herself Empress has definately got an overblown ego. What was interesting was that while the people were happy the nobles didn't seem overjoyed at this further power grab. Maybe Ayn should start watching her back?

[Appolus]

If that is the case, those schemers better watch their backs, or they will get a social call from Mr. Zoktavir.

[Wayton]

Just as Vinter the First 'stole' the Cygnaran Crown from the King before him?

You mean his dad via legal succession? Granted foul play was probably in there somewhere but really it would have been better to say Leto stole the crown from Vinter (And thankfully so, Vinter may be a master killer but he is a poor king). I was just pointing out that Queen Ayn's family history isn't quite all sparkles and joy.

I might also add we are still unsure on what Vlad's plans are, he wasn't in a hurry to put down his vassals' revolt at the very least.

[zee]

I'm sure "Defenestrator", being a true Cygnarian, knows a thing or two about making a sham of treaty signings! ho ho ho, I'm too funny. Remember to tip your waitresses!

[zee]

If the name Ayn is a reference to Ayn Rand, then perhaps we can expect the empress to be distinctly against the notion of nationalism and collectivist tendencies, and the idea of the "greater good". Ideologically, she should be all about lassez fair capitalism.

Or, if she is anything like the protagonist of Atlas Shrugged, she should be taken as a Machiavellian genius who, because of a lack of assumed limitations ans scruples, can be capable of truly astonishing and fightening things.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Dude, anyone who stomps onto her balcony and declares herself Empress has definately got an overblown ego. What was interesting was that while the people were happy the nobles didn't seem overjoyed at this further power grab. Maybe Ayn should start watching her back?

No need. Butcher does it extremely well.

[MostlyHarmless]

Dude, anyone who stomps onto her balcony and declares herself Empress has definately got an overblown ego. What was interesting was that while the people were happy the nobles didn't seem overjoyed at this further power grab. Maybe Ayn should start watching her back?

Anyone who calls himself a 'god' and 'father of Dragons' has an overblown ego, yet I don't see anyone saying that Toruk doesn't deserve those titles (though the former may be).

Anyone who declares themself to be the 'voice' and 'Harbinger' of Menoth clearly has an overblown ego, yet I don't see anyone denouncing the Harbinger as such.

Ayn called herself Empress, because she now rules over an Empire. Furthermore, she's been shown to be able to actually hold that title, and be a strong ruler to boot. The kayazy love her, the common folk love her, and while some nobles may be wary of her power... they still respect strength, and that's what she has in spades.

[vytzka]

Dude, anyone who stomps onto her balcony and declares herself Empress has definately got an overblown ego. What was interesting was that while the people were happy the nobles didn't seem overjoyed at this further power grab. Maybe Ayn should start watching her back?

Not only she watches her back, but, as has been noted uphtread, anyone dumb enough to try anything would immediately get an impromptu gig by Orsus and the Doomreavers right at his/her residence.

I'm sure "Defenestrator", being a true Cygnarian, knows a thing or two about making a sham of treaty signings! ho ho ho, I'm too funny. Remember to tip your waitresses!

If the name Ayn is a reference to Ayn Rand, then perhaps we can expect the empress to be distinctly against the notion of nationalism and collectivist tendencies, and the idea of the "greater good". Ideologically, she should be all about lassez fair capitalism.

Funny that you mention it, my brain always keeps correcting Ayn Vanar to Ayn Rand for whatever reason (possibly because I don't know of anyone else named Ayn). However she doesn't actually seem to be very, or at all, libertarian and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Wayton]

Anyone who calls himself a 'god' and 'father of Dragons' has an overblown ego, yet I don't see anyone saying that Toruk doesn't deserve those titles (though the former may be).

Anyone who declares themself to be the 'voice' and 'Harbinger' of Menoth clearly has an overblown ego, yet I don't see anyone denouncing the Harbinger as such.

Ayn called herself Empress, because she now rules over an Empire. Furthermore, she's been shown to be able to actually hold that title, and be a strong ruler to boot. The kayazy love her, the common folk love her, and while some nobles may be wary of her power... they still respect strength, and that's what she has in spades.

So your examples for overblown egos are two DIVINE beings, really this is apples and oranges.

I am interested to see how popular Ayn will be when her empire starts to crumble because she over reached.

[vytzka]

So your examples for overblown egos are two DIVINE beings, really this is apples and oranges.

I am interested to see how popular Ayn will be when her empire starts to crumble because she over reached.

That's an if, not when