Khador player here wants justice

[Hollywoodxxl]

This should cause an uprising

The woldwarden is too cheap at 9pts.

Dont get all this guys crazy on me either.

9pts? The warden is hands down the best non-character heavy in the game. Prolly better than half the character beasts too. Im guessing the Circle nations biggest complaint is that you cant heal it (non-baulder). Its survivability/denial skills are amazing and it has more life than a Khador jack with 2 less armor.

Wardens have a great new animus too. Charging and casting spells in the same activation = awesome. Spd 6 mat 6. Pathfinder. 2 initial attacks. Smite. Magic weapon. Open fist abilities. Non-living. Cant frenzy. This is before any buffs of course. All this for 10pts?? Oh my bad they're only 9.

9pt Khador jack. Destroyer. Yipee

[ImpactVector]

Alright, I'll bite.

I think the best WW comparison is the Kodiak. Here's the breakdown:

+1 pt
-2 ARM
-1 STR
+2 SPD
+1 Damage box
-Worse chain attack
+Magic Weapons
+Arguably better concealment effect (doesn't take action but costs 2 fury, no damage roll but adds 1" and has good faction synergy)
-Free runs
+Geomancy

Conclusion? Arguably slightly worse stats but an extremely useful ability in Geomancy for 1 more point.

Is it an aggressively costed model? I think we'll all agree that the answer is yes. Is it completely out there? I don't think so. You are free to disagree.

[Bakemono]

This should cause an uprising

The woldwarden is too cheap at 9pts.

Dont get all this guys crazy on me either.

9pts? The warden is hands down the best non-character heavy in the game. Prolly better than half the character beasts too. Im guessing the Circle nations biggest complaint is that you cant heal it (non-baulder). Its survivability/denial skills are amazing and it has more life than a Khador jack with 2 less armor.

Wardens have a great new animus too. Charging and casting spells in the same activation = awesome. Spd 6 mat 6. Pathfinder. 2 initial attacks. Smite. Magic weapon. Open fist abilities. Non-living. Cant frenzy. This is before any buffs of course. All this for 10pts?? Oh my bad they're only 9.

9pt Khador jack. Destroyer. Yipee

I think you are writing off the fact (too easily) that only one of our Warlocks can heal them, they are at the low end of MAT for our Heavies, have only (3) Fury, and utilizing any of those abilities you are so impressed by (Animus, Geomancy, etc.) all costs Fury. The Woldwarden is a solid Warbeast, but it isn't unbalanced at nine. Would we pay (10) for it? Sure. We would have to if that is where the price was set, but that doesn't mean much one way or the other.

However, let's compare the Destroyer you were so cavalier about mentioning. It costs the same as our Woldwarden so let's stack them up against each other shall we?

Both the Woldwarden and Destroyer have a MAT-6
Both the Woldwarden and the Destroyer have a DEF-10
There is only a (1) Box difference in their hits so call that a draw too.

The Destroyer has a (20) ARM versus an (18) ARM

The Destroyer has a Range 14" POW-14 AOE-3 Attack which ignore intervening models. The furthest ranged attack a Woldwarden can get (assuming it has the right Warlock) is ten inches. None of the powers match or exceed POW-14.

In melee, the Woldwarden does have 2x P+S-15 attacks and a possible Chain Attack. The Destroyer has 1x P+S-17. Let's look at the comparison in melee damage against one another, assuming maximum resources for both (Fury forcing and Focus):

The Destroyer will get a Maximum of 4x P+S=17 against ARM-18 which comes out to an average damage of (24) pts.

The Woldwarden will get a max of 6x (we are going to assume the chain attack hits too) P+S-15 against an ARM-20 which equals (12) pts. It is amazing how much of a perk that extra armor is isn't it? Granted the Woldwarden will have slammed the Destroyer back but with the shake off rules that isn't as huge an advantage as you would think.

Then the Woldwarden has its Animus which is harder to evaluate, but I think that it is more than offset by the long range AOE that the Woldwarden cannot match. What matters is utility. Are these two models the same? No. Do they offer equal utility? Yes. It appears to me that on strike, the Destroyer does more damage both ranged and in melee. This is offset by the utility option of the Woldwarden's Animus and Geomancy selection. One is a straight up DESTROYER. The other is a swiss army knife.

[Hollywoodxxl]

Ok, my turn for a friendly rebuttle. Destroyer does have +2 armor. The wardens armor can be buffed mine cannot. I cannot give the destroyer reach. I have to use focus to shake off after the slam. Your shifting stones pull fury off the warden. If your a Khador player and your using a rat 4 pow 14 bombard for 9 pts you should have just taken 2 mortars and saved 3pts.

[Conviviacr]

Ok, my turn for a friendly rebuttle. Destroyer does have +2 armor. The wardens armor can be buffed mine cannot. I cannot give the destroyer reach. I have to use focus to shake off after the slam. Your shifting stones pull fury off the warden. If your a Khador player and your using a rat 4 pow 14 bombard for 9 pts you should have just taken 2 mortars and saved 3pts.

The point is that you have a long range pow 14 option as you close. As for an armour buff... The only armour buff available to the Warden is Baldur's Stone Skin, I have never, ever, cast Stone Skin for the +2 to ARM. It is the +2 Str that I use it for. Plus we lose in def and spd so no charging. That is with 1 caster.

The shifting stones pull fury off the warden BEFORE we leach so we still end up having a fury on the Warden if we want it too get up and they need to be within 1" of the Warden to do so, the Warden can easily outpace their 8" place effect movement.

[Hollywoodxxl]

The point is that you have a long range pow 14 option as you close. As for an armour buff... The only armour buff available to the Warden is Baldur's Stone Skin, I have never, ever, cast Stone Skin for the +2 to ARM. It is the +2 Str that I use it for. Plus we lose in def and spd so no charging. That is with 1 caster.

The shifting stones pull fury off the warden BEFORE we leach so we still end up having a fury on the Warden if we want it too get up and they need to be within 1" of the Warden to do so, the Warden can easily outpace their 8" place effect movement.

As we close? And the other player is just gonna let me spd 4 my a$$ up the table. Prolly not. If the destroyer is not running its already in charge range or its engaged and or knocked down.

[Conviviacr]

As we close? And the other player is just gonna let me spd 4 my a$$ up the table. Prolly not. If the destroyer is not running its already in charge range or its engaged and or knocked down.

If that is the way you think you would not be using a Destroyer, you would be using a Juggy. With a rng 14 you do not need to run, you can lob some shots. If you do not want to use what your models provide you do not whine when we use the entirety of our models to good effect. To cast our spells with geomancy we need to choose not to run, and dang it I do to spread out upkeeps, or drop the animus.

[Bakemono]

Ok, my turn for a friendly rebuttle. Destroyer does have +2 armor. The wardens armor can be buffed mine cannot. I cannot give the destroyer reach. I have to use focus to shake off after the slam. Your shifting stones pull fury off the warden. If your a Khador player and your using a rat 4 pow 14 bombard for 9 pts you should have just taken 2 mortars and saved 3pts.

There is nothing wrong with a friendly reubttal, but while we have our buffs, do not pretend that you do not have yours. They are different from ours but your Warcasters have their ways of enhancing their Warjacks too. I know this for a fact as I was getting long distance bombed by Khador last night by Destroyers and the Behemoth. Buffs are beside the point. We aren't paying for buffs in the basic package. Your assertion is the Woldwarden itself is undercosted. Then you must prove that based on the Woldwarden alone. I have demonstrated that your Destroyer and the Woldwarden are comparable in ability as well as price. Let's stick to that. If you want to complain about buffs then you need to start a thread for each model that casts such spells and I will gladly talk about that model. Understood? Your point was destroyed, pun intended. It didn't hold water. The polite thing to do is acknowledge that or offer evidence based in the original discussion.

[Corevak]

I think the Destroyer and the Woldwarden fill 2 deferant rolls and are hard to compare. But if we are going to based on what I am seeing here I still don't think the warden is to cheep at 9 points. If you bring a Destroyer and don't use its ranged attack then you just wasted half of your attacks. The ranged weapon on a destroyer can be good against low DEF targets, the warden is definitely low at 10. Know someone is probably going to bring up that the warden can have a 16" threat with movement but then we get to move the Destroyer and give it an 18" threat.

I don't think the Woldwarden is to cheep at 9 pts.

[Hollywoodxxl]

There is nothing wrong with a friendly reubttal, but while we have our buffs, do not pretend that you do not have yours. They are different from ours but your Warcasters have their ways of enhancing their Warjacks too. I know this for a fact as I was getting long distance bombed by Khador last night by Destroyers and the Behemoth. Buffs are beside the point. We aren't paying for buffs in the basic package. Your assertion is the Woldwarden itself is undercosted. Then you must prove that based on the Woldwarden alone. I have demonstrated that your Destroyer and the Woldwarden are comparable in ability as well as price. Let's stick to that. If you want to complain about buffs then you need to start a thread for each model that casts such spells and I will gladly talk about that model. Understood? Your point was destroyed, pun intended. It didn't hold water. The polite thing to do is acknowledge that or offer evidence based in the original discussion.

Who made you king of the forums dude? Ill post where I want whenever I want. If you dont like it or agree then you dont have to respond. If you think your gonna tell me what to do your sorley mistaken. The rest of us can continue our friendly discussion without you. UNDERSTOOD?

[Hollywoodxxl]

I think the Destroyer and the Woldwarden fill 2 deferant rolls and are hard to compare. But if we are going to based on what I am seeing here I still don't think the warden is to cheep at 9 points. If you bring a Destroyer and don't use its ranged attack then you just wasted half of your attacks. The ranged weapon on a destroyer can be good against low DEF targets, the warden is definitely low at 10. Know someone is probably going to bring up that the warden can have a 16" threat with movement but then we get to move the Destroyer and give it an 18" threat.

I don't think the Woldwarden is to cheep at 9 pts.

Noted....If the destroyer walks up and shoots sure he can hit a low def model with a 6 or 7 (average). After that hes gonna be engaged or charged by another heavy. Maybe your warden is cool at 9 just not when compared to the destroyer. IDK 9 seems cheap with the Carny at 11. Both being non-charactars. I would just love to have access to a model that does so much at 9 pts

[Blaque]

Who made you king of the forums dude? Ill post where I want whenever I want. If you dont like it or agree then you dont have to respond. If you think your gonna tell me what to do your sorley mistaken. The rest of us can continue our friendly discussion without you. UNDERSTOOD?

He refuted your point. He noted that right now, the burden of proof is on you, the asserter of the arguement. Namely "Woldwardens are too cheap" with the example given its comparison to the Destroyer. As the Destroyer is being shown to be comparible, you need to present better evidence.

By then going and suggesting buffs, we then find you are ignoring the point here. For instance, you note Lightning Tendrils, which is a good buff, mind. But you are cherry-picking spells from one side and not your own. Your faction has Battle Lust, Boundless Charge, Superiority (a spell very deserving of its name) and various other just plan useful spells. Selectively ignoring them and saying your faction has no buffs comparible to Circle is creating a strawman arguement.

Your tone also feels like you are out for heads or being hostile to be hostile. And if you are so dismissive of people trying to poke holes in your arguement, you then feel as if you are out to confirm your own biases, rather then actually have any true discourse. Though, I admit that's the tone of your initial post and why I am now arguing against your style of discussion, then anything you bring up.

Anyways, summer down or this thread will become nothing but a firepit. And I feel the Mods are not too kind to such things.

And stuff.

[Blaque]

Noted....If the destroyer walks up and shoots sure he can hit a low def model with a 6 or 7 (average). After that hes gonna be engaged or charged by another heavy. Maybe your warden is cool at 9 just not when compared to the destroyer. IDK 9 seems cheap with the Carny at 11. Both being non-charactars. I would just love to have access to a model that does so much at 9 pts

What precisely in Circle can attack something from 14" away unbuffed? Woldwardens sure as hell can't unless at least three buffs are involved. Feral Warpwolves can't kill a Destroyer if it takes only two of thsoe buffs. All such buffs require at least 10 more points invested in other models then the charger (8 for a Gnarlhorn and 2 for a Blackclad) and two specific casters (eKaya and eKrueger).

Carniveans have superior damage output, superior defense stats, superior defense vector choices (Eyeless Sight), more base attacks, Assault, higher fury and a 10" spray. It also has access to at least +2 MAT, RAT and/or damage for every single warlock in the army save for eLylyth. Again, if you compare things and are bringing up buffs, do not just cherry-pick, or you are only creating a weaker, false arguement that's easier to knock down. The textbook case of strawman.

And stuff.

[Hollywoodxxl]

Im not being hostile. I just dont appreicate, being a grown man, told what to do or how to post. I enjoy debating this game and its interacting parts. Again if someone does not like it or agree then dont respond.

[Conviviacr]

Who made you king of the forums dude? Ill post where I want whenever I want. If you dont like it or agree then you dont have to respond. If you think your gonna tell me what to do your sorley mistaken. The rest of us can continue our friendly discussion without you. UNDERSTOOD?

So on the one hand you tell him that he cannot refute your arguements or tell you what to post, which he wasn't doing anyways, and then YOU tell him to go away and not post because apparently you are the king of the forums... If all you want to do is be an ******* why don't you go whine in the crows nest.

Im not being hostile. I just dont appreicate, being a grown man, told what to do or how to post. I enjoy debating this game and its interacting parts. Again if someone does not like it or agree then dont respond.

Pot meet kettle, summary of your responces to critiques: "Wah! Don't tell me what to post and if you disagree with me don't post *** hats! Wah!"

[Hollywoodxxl]

What precisely in Circle can attack something from 14" away unbuffed? .

Re-read geomancy

[Blaque]

And the point of thist hread is revealed. I'm done.

And stuff.

[zombie-a-go-go]

So on the one hand you tell him that he cannot refute your arguements or tell you what to post, which he wasn't doing anyways, and then YOU tell him to go away and not post because apparently you are the king of the forums... If all you want to do is be an ******* why don't you go whine in the crows nest.

Pot meet kettle, summary of your responces to critiques: "Wah! Don't tell me what to post and if you disagree with me don't post *** hats! Wah!"

Settle down, please. It's just a forum thread.

[PPS_Mod:Josh]

This topic is being locked for inflammmatory and insulting language.