eKreoss 35pt Exemplar Theme. Help please?

[Neronoxx]

Alright, so me and like six of my friends just got into Warmachine, and i picked the Protectorate of Menoth as my starting faction. I am drawn to Kreoss more than any other caster, and like the synergy with the Exemplars, which i also REALLY like.
So, here is my 35 point list.
Grand Exemplar Kreoss, Epic Warcaster (+6pt)
Fire of salvation (-9pt)
Knights Exemplar X 2 (-10pt)
Knights Exemplar Seneschal X 2 (-3pt, tier reward)
Exemplar Errants max (-8pt)
^Exemplar Errant UA (-2pt)
Errant Seneschal X 2 (-4pt)
High Exemplar Gravus (-5pt)
35 points exactly.
Looks/Seems like a solid list. Heavy melee, a little range, immune to most abilities and such, this also grants me all the tier benefits as well, which are pretty sweet. My main problem is this;
Are there better Exemplars i could be running?
I know the Bastions are complete road-blocks with some nice damage, and that Cinerators are flaming, armor encased missiles of holy wrath, and that Vengers are gonna trample through infantry, but are they worth running?
As it stands now, a big feature of this army is its abilities and denial. Ideally, almost all of my models with be immune to fear, fire, poison, knock down, stationary, etc. So can anyone out there raise suggestions that i might have missed? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Pete_x]

I've been toying with the idea for a eKreoss tier list that migh be really strong. Haven't had the chance to playtest it but I don't mind sharing it.

Grand Exemplar Kreoss (*6pts)
* Fire of Salvation (9pts)
Exemplar Errants (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer (2pts)
Knights Exemplar (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Knights Exemplar (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Knights Exemplar (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Exemplar Errant Seneschal (2pts)
High Exemplar Gravus (5pts)
Knight Exemplar Seneschal (0pts)

Your list is missing one exemplar unit for the tier 3.

everything in this list beside FoS is exemplar has Aegis and can be immune to KD stationnary. Kreoss, FoS, KES and Gravus are the only thing without eiter AD or AM. 18 Knight exemplar will kill most jack on feat turn. Gravus can dish out 3 boosted ps 11 weapon master hit when charging on feat turn with 13" threat, if he had 3 souls. I intend to cast Imv. Resolve on the errant and camp the rest of the focus apart what FoS might need. Againsgt assassination list I will ptobably cast it on Kreoss himself and stand at ARM 25.

I'd stay away from the other exemplar. Bastion and cinerator are too slow and Vengers can't strike twice on the feat turn if they charged.

[Neronoxx]

Lol, i changed my list and forgot to recheck the tier. doh.
What i like about bastions is the fact that they serve as a nice escort/second wave unit. Run them slighty behind your main wave, and then have them charge forward and poke at enemies through holes where your units were before. They are sliw however-my biggest problem with them.

[FearMeMortals]

There isn't a lot of room for variation in a T4 eKreoss list.

eKreoss -6
^Fire of Salvation 9

Knights Exemplar, Leader and 5 Grunts 5
Knights Exemplar, Leader and 5 Grunts 5
Knights Exemplar Errants, Leader and 9 Grunts 8
^Officer and Standard Bearer 2

Knights Exemplar Errant Seneschal *free

This is basically the core of your T4 list for 23 out of 35 points. This leaves you with 12 points to spend and a requirement for a least one more unit of Exemplars to make the T4.

The way I see it you really have to chose from the following.

More Exemplar: This is a cheap option that leaves you with more points to add some solos to give your list more depth.
More Errants: Another Max unit of errants with UA is 10 points leaving you with 2 points left over for a solo of your choice.
Add Bastions: I would strongly recommend against this. Your Exemplars and Errants both have advance move and more base SPD. Bastions WILL get left behind. eKreoss's tier needs to play fast in my opinion.
Add Vengers: This is a good option for a bit of variety, they're quick and are good for flanking
Add Cineraters: While better than Bastions in my view they will also get left behind in Kreoss's Tier force.

So lets assume you go for another unit of Exemplar.

Knights Exemplar, Leader and 5 Grunts 5

Knights Exemplar Seneschal 3
Knights Exemplar Seneschal 3
Vassal Mechanic 1

35 points.

Have a good think about Vengers though.

[dicegod]

Here's the list I have been running at 35pts.

eKreoss
^Fire of Salvation

KE
KE
10xErrants
^UA
3xVengers
Gravus
KE Seneschal

The Vengers are a fast flanking force to hunt gun mages and softer units like that. Gravus protects you against Sorcha/Kreoss which still are incredible feats against infantry. He also gives you a lot of flexibility between dispel, reach, and the ability to buy and boost attacks (including impacts).

As FMM said above, Bastions&Cinerators are too slow for a eKreoss tier 4 list which is about saturating the field with a lot heavy hitters as soon as possible. And it works well too.

[FearMeMortals]

Yeah I didn't realise how good Gravius was. He's like a light jack really except better and probably a bit under costed at 5 points

[dicegod]

I wouldn't say under costed. He is only POW11, can only take 3 souls and he is very vulnerable against ranged heavy lists.

He synergises very well with this list however.

[jandrese]

Gravus is basically a light jack except that he only has 13 wounds instead of 24 or so, oh and he has much better SPD. He's also reliant on his Exemplars dying (but not too fast) to perform well. He's definitely not undercosted IMHO simply because he has low ARM and becomes a lot less effective once dismounted.

Also, don't let the POW 11 fool you, he's a weaponmaster so it's more like POW 14.5, right in line with an infused Menoth light jack.

[FearMeMortals]

isn't it 15 wounds? not to nit pick just saying

[Neronoxx]

Those are some really helpful comment guys.
Marching a tide of bastions and cinerators down the field will have to wait for another day.
So, like fearemortals said, basically we've got a core list, and then we need to add some extra units.
Which should i value more? Exemplar Errants or Exemplar Knights? it really bothers me that my knights dont have a max unit size, NOR a UA, so the Errants almost seem like the better pick. That with all the abilities they can stack together, makes me feel like i should be running more Errants.
Would this be wrong? I know that most Exemplars are sheer beat-sticks, but are the errants more durable? with the UA they are amazing, and while in the Seneschals range they have a kind of psuedo-eyeless sight.
The Knights Exemplar seem like a straight up Beat-stick, which won't be bad as long as they are good at it. I've only run them in a few games, and usually they either get shot down by ranged weapons or they simply demolish juggernauts and the like.
Comments?

[darisus]

If you feel like marching a horde of bastions and cinerators down the field go for eSevy, as his t3 is 2 units of medium based models.

[FearMeMortals]

You can't run a lot of Errants at 35 points. Its 10 points per unit+ua. You need to take probably 2 units of KE to meet your requirments, and they're not as bad as you think they are

[Ultimate]

isn't it 15 wounds? not to nit pick just saying

Actually it's more because the hit that make him dismounted, the excess of the first 10 wounds is lost

[Neronoxx]

So, the first ten damage on gravus just Dismounts him? then he has Five health? is that how that works? cuz if it does then i am leaning towards including Gravus in the list.
And about the bastion/cinerator wall, i am glad to hear that they work well with eSevy, becuase he was the next Warcaster i was going to pick up. I like his badassed-ness. i'll post another list here in a little bit - have to write a final.

[ak-haru kenaustin ardenol]

Yep, that's how Gravus (along with the other dragoons with dismount) works. Pretty cool.

[GermanJoe]

Cool!

The list dicegod posted, was the very same list I have in mind for my next project!

I was a little unsure wether to take Gravus or Bastion. But I guess Gravus (would have been my first choice, since he supports the infantry) is by far the better pick!

Then I have only one question left: If you stick to this and play this "tier 4" list, is this list competetive, or just nice to look at?

[FearMeMortals]

is this list competetive, or just nice to look at?

Depends what you come up against. Not sure how it would go as a take on all commers list. Still - weaponmasters

[yastobaal]

I used an eKreoss tier 4 list in a Breast Cancer Brawl over the weekend. I found them very useful against heavy infantry and the hard to hit but fragile stuff. However, the list did struggle against Karchev. Armour 19-20 meant at least 8 off the dice.

However, the guy I faced made some errors by hitting the Knight Exemplar senny to the ground first and then in the same turn killing a couple of Exemplars so that the senny could get back up next turn and carry on hitting. He also didn't try and kill Gravus when he was in combat with Karchev and it was him who struck the killing blow.

My list:

eKreoss
Fire of Salvation
Knights Exemplar x2
Knights Errants (min + UA)
Bastions (min)
Exemplar Senny
Errent Senny
High Exemplar Gravus
Deliverer Sunburst

errants went up the center to block charges and shoot what they could. Exemplars around the flanks. With the advance move they could threaten almost straight away. An opponent kept back his solos because of them. I found the bastions useful to charge on feat turn and kill whatever had engaged the errants, just keep running them up and they'll get there.

As for spells, Sacrosanct or Inviolable Resolve on the Errants and the other where ever the situation demanded it. Sacrosanct is a wonderful spell in my opinion. It meant that an exemplar model would die and the model doing the harm would be knocked down, Gravus would get a soul token and the Fire of Salvation could move further up and hit stuff.

[tzeentchling]

eKreoss tier should excel against Karchev lists, that many weaponmasters gives you your best chance at cracking all those jacks.

Personally, I like Dicegod's list best, and it's what I run too. At 50, I max the Vengers, and add a Redeemer (good for picking off pesky snipers and the like, and a place to use eKreoss' focus) and a unit of Daughters, because I love Daughters and they're in his tier. That's just what I've done though, lots of little ways to tweak the list. The Sunburst is also a nice piece to include.

[Neronoxx]

That is a good question. The tier is fairly strict. I suppise a lot of the games will be won based on how well you can protect your own units. They will probably always need to be in cover or concealed while running up or they will just get picked apart.
Against other melee lists, you probably want to just charge in and make sure that you get first blood. That would probably be feat turn as well.
Against ranged lists we probably just want to run from cover to cover. In melee we would have the game hands down.
Thats just my two cents. Our biggest weakness IMHO is the lack of ranged threat. Thats our biggest problem to overcome.

[jandrese]

eKreoss tier should excel against Karchev lists, that many weaponmasters gives you your best chance at cracking all those jacks.

Depends what kind of Karchev list you are fighting. If he's zipping around the board with bombards in tow, constantly shelling your lines, then a typical eKreoss list is hosed. Everybody will be dead before they're in range to charge. If he brings a bunch of Devistators you would be in trouble too, because KE (even on a charge) struggle to crack Devis open, and when they pop, they'll wipe out big chunks of your guys in one attack.

[Neronoxx]

Thats when we have to use our skills as strategists. Just because the list allows us to charge up the middle, doesnt mean we have to. Our units have a nice command range, so we can keep them spread out without really losing anything. I think, in that situation, our units spead is what really hurts us the most. Certainly not the fastest faction.

[Neronoxx]

Grand exemplar kreoss (-6wj)
Fire of salvation (3)
Knights Exemplar X 2 (10)
Knights Exemplar Seneschal (tier)
Exemplar Errants (8)
Errant unit attachment (2)
Errant Seneschal (2)
Exemplar bastions/cinerators (5)
High Exemplar Gravus (5)
alrighy. So how does this list look?
Only question now is bastions vs cinerators.

[Pete_x]

I really don't know why you want to use Bastions or Cinerator. If you take an extra Knight exemplar instead i'm sure it would make a better list. Dicegod is using vengers who are certainly good. My only concern is that they can't attack twice when charging on the feat turn. A extra unit of exemplar errants wouldn't have access to the UA and I'm not convinced they are any better then advance move KE without a UA. It has already been expressed that cinerators and bastions are too slow. Ultimatly you're kinda stuck on 3 KE IMO if you want to make the best of the tier list.

[Neronoxx]

Alright, so what units should should i include at 50 points?
With a 35 pt list like this...
EKreoss
Fire of salvation
knights exemplar X3
max exemplar errants with UA attachment
high exemplar gravus
knight exemplar seneschal (tier)
knight errant seneschal
i know daughters are an auto include. And the sunburst crew seems pretty legit, two of them would be mean. What about Visgoth? Is he worth it?

[Pete_x]

daughters, visgoth, EE senny, KE senny and mechanik. That would be my guess.

[Eglagrodion]

if your not going for tier, then a unit of max TFG with UA will be great with eKreoss also. upkeep IR on them en see them take the damage.
on feat turn they can dish out 2 attacks pow 20. if on the charge this cracks heavies, and if not then they have enough to do to get those TFG gone.

daughters are to much evilness with ekreoss, when played right. they are an unit that needs to be played many times to get to know how they work properly.

[Pete_x]

if your not going for tier, then a unit of max TFG with UA will be great with eKreoss also. upkeep IR on them en see them take the damage.
on feat turn they can dish out 2 attacks pow 20. if on the charge this cracks heavies, and if not then they have enough to do to get those TFG gone.

daughters are to much evilness with ekreoss, when played right. they are an unit that needs to be played many times to get to know how they work properly.

eKreoss is probably the only caster I wouldn't play in a non-tier list at the moment. The advance move, free Senny and extra 2" seem better then the chance to take whatever unit isn't in his tier force. (yes even the choir)

[tzeentchling]

TFG are in his tier - he has access to all Flameguard units.

[dicegod]

Yeah, but they really don't fit at 35pts.

[Craaag]

I'm not a huge fan of Bastions but they serve a role here of protecting a relatively fragile eKreoss from lots of assassination tricks so shouldn't be completely written off. Particularly when he has to get close to his troops with no arc node for IR and the feat of course.

[repentia]

ill take this to a new thread, just noticed how much i necrod this one by xD

[loramer]

If you really want to use the bastions, I have had success and have seen others (regleant) have success using them in his teir list as personal bodyguards to Kreoss and working as the second wave. They may only be SPD 4, but their threat range is 9" since they have reach, which is only and inch and a half less than the KE. Yes, that extra 1.5" matters, but they can also form a semi circle in front of Kreoss and prevent him from being shot (most of the time). Add in the fact that they are a pain in the butt to kill and they can definitely be worth taking.

Your own models can sometimes clog up your own charge lanes in his T4 list. Having the bastion hanging back as a second wave keeps those charge lanes open for you.