Kromac Holiday Edition

[DaCheeseMan]

By the looks of it, Kromac is a 7 FUR caster all the time now?

And now able to set his beasts up for charges/slams.

I think he's definitely viable in both beast and caster forms now.

[Mutton]

Ya, I see no reason to run Beast form now. He's a pure support warlock that can punish you for getting close.

[N0rdicNinja]

So he does have a FURY stat in beast form? Why didn't they put that in his Beast form stat bar?

[DaCheeseMan]

So he does have a FURY stat in beast form? Why didn't they put that in his Beast form stat bar?

I only assume its because it doesn't change. Or its a typo.

[Spike0011]

I think its for base arm. I play a game against cyrxs once, The cankerworm thrusted Kromac(beast form) and the +3 wasn't halfed.

other than that, no clue?

[paulj1096]

I really like these changes. Kromac looks VERY interesting and I really won't miss the 9 fury in beast form. With his feat, you'll wind up with more than enough to get the job done. The current spells have loads of synergy with any Circle warbeasts. I can't wait to get him on the table and try out this form.

[N0rdicNinja]

edit:

nm, I was corrected in a different thread

[Rosicrucian]

New Kromac is interesting. At first blush he looks less directly powerful. He looses 2 fury on the assassination run and the super accurate rifts as well as the huge fury pool. However he's probably is a better beast caster in shaman form. Loosing Havoc sucks, but Ferals are accurate enough that I think it's probably ok to stick WA on your Woldwarden and leave the Feral au natural. Warpath is interesting, and I can see a lot of tricks in it for a canny player. You could clearing some charge lanes with it and then beasting and charging Kromac in with 11-12 fury. You could use it line up slams ala slipstream. You can use it with ghostly wolves to let them walk around someone they're engaged with to line up an unexpected charge. You can use it to adjust where you want your woldwarden forest to be. You can also just use it for some crazy threat range. I'm not sure Kromac is a top flight tourney caster still but he sure looks interesting to play. He'll be spending much more time in human that's for sure.

[LEJKaya]

I am now happy with Kromac (Theory).

I think he's now got the emphasis on shaman and could be a decent beast caster.
Beast form is a nasty surprise if you get it off and will do some damage on feat turn but does not need to be an assassin now since he has another focus in shaman.

Bestial at 14" is nice too.

Losing Havoc for wild aggression is different, now Wardens can cast it but obviously its much more limited. I think the above poster is right; using this on specific beasts and Ferals for the rest is going to work.

Obviously I need to try this but I'm quite happy here.

[Rosicrucian]

That's a good point. WA is now a wonderful spell for wardens as each one can handle themselves using the the one fury to charge to instead throw on WA. Basically unless you take a lot of light beasts or non-warden, non-feral heavies Havoc may even be [i]better[i/] than havoc. And then Warpath is just a huge bag of tricks.

[DudeOfOrboros]

Wild aggression on a Shadowhorn might be fun.
So can Kromac in Human form advance, cast spells, feat, Beast out and then Jump and start killing?

[Bakemono]

He is different enough that I will have to test him prior to giving any serious comment. I'm not a big fan of theorymachine. I will say that as long as he retains the Fury stat (waiting for clarification) in Beast Form, I don't see any reason he would be played any different or be any less of a threat. I never needed nine Fury to put down a target on an assassination run. So as far as his personal runs and combat, I don't see any difference in how he will play from the last incarnation.

The biggest difference is his greater value in Shaman form. His magical suppression field is bigger (very nice). His spells seem useful but here I will have to test.

[Rosicrucian]

He is different enough that I will have to test him prior to giving any serious comment. I'm not a big fan of theorymachine. I will say that as long as he retains the Fury stat (waiting for clarification) in Beast Form, I don't see any reason he would be played any different or be any less of a threat. I never needed nine Fury to put down a target on an assassination run. So as far as his personal runs and combat, I don't see any difference in how he will play from the last incarnation.

The biggest difference is his greater value in Shaman form. His magical suppression field is bigger (very nice). His spells seem useful but here I will have to test.

I don't see why he wouldn't. As i mentioned in the rules forum, if you think about how a card is laid out the fury is located in a separate spot from the stat line. As a result, it would make sense that, as long as his fury isn't changing, there is no need to list it again for beast form's alternate stat line.

[Calmorian]

I just posted this in the Field Test rules, but as it stands Kromac is unable to resume human form if he is in beast form by the rules. Altered States the ability that switches the forms, is only on his Human Form. Which means that he never has access to ability to return him to his human state.

[DaCheeseMan]

I just posted this in the Field Test rules, but as it stands Kromac is unable to resume human form if he is in beast form by the rules. Altered States the ability that switches the forms, is only on his Human Form. Which means that he never has access to ability to return him to his human state.

I'm sure that's not intended haha.

[Critical]

But that would be very characterful and awesome. When you change form you change your army focus. Choose wisely!

Cheers!
Critical

[Buddhanutz]

I just posted this in the Field Test rules, but as it stands Kromac is unable to resume human form if he is in beast form by the rules. Altered States the ability that switches the forms, is only on his Human Form. Which means that he never has access to ability to return him to his human state.

Read altered states. The first sentence or so reads that you choose which form to take at the begining of your turn. I don't have a quote for you, but I read it last night and it clearly states that you choose either form.

[Bakemono]

Read altered states. The first sentence or so reads that you choose which form to take at the begining of your turn. I don't have a quote for you, but I read it last night and it clearly states that you choose either form.

His argument is that since Altered States doesn't appear on the Beast Form that once changed, the Beast cannot change back. It is clearly an oversight or Privateer merely assumed it was OBVIOUS that either form could shift. I suppose it is possible (anything is possible) that Privateer has decided that changing to the Beast is a one way trip in each battle, but I doubt it.

[Calmorian]

I'm certain that it's not intended at all. That's silly to have a shapeshifter who gets stuck in one form. Just thought it was hilarious by strict rules, that once you beast out, you can't beast in, so to speak.

[Zyrael]

nice and nasty support caster. But it is true, there is absolutely no reason to use the beast form.

A pity... cause it's so fun to swap forms and drop his beast form on the table.

I mean I guess if they stand within 13" of Kromac and he hasn't popped his feat... you deserve to die. But that's really not a lot of play time for Kormac teh Hungry.

[LEJKaya]

Ok, I know there are some valid points made but seriously we can't keep just looking at the best form and saying "Well no reason to change to the other form now".

Right now (Theory here, not enough games) he's a good support caster, I haven't even thought of all the things warpath can do!
He has the option of switching to beast form for high MAT,P&S and interesting manoeuvrability with jump. I can deal with this, I think one form must be dominant and will be what you spend most of your time in. I think this has to be shaman form to support troops early and stay back. Then beast form is for if you get that chance to close in on the enemy caster, take out a jack/beast or even clean up some infantry with him.

So yeah, beast is the less powerful form, but now that's just some utility for him. Changing forms will still happen IMO or it can act like a deterrent so the enemy will be unable to get too close to him.

More games!

[paulj1096]

I am with LEJKaya. Thanks to this massively inconvenient Christmas Holiday, I've been oh so unfortunate to not get any games in with new Kromac :P. I do, however, think that even with the awesome shaman form, Kromac will see instances where beasting out will be well worth it. I really can't wait to get him on the table. Hopefully tomorrow!

[havukwrecka]

I like the new Kromac because I like casters that have options (ala Mohsar). I am building a list for my weekend New Years MK2 extravaganza next week. Gotta have some fun while hung over? Right!

My question to myself is what units with him? Druids for counter magic? WoO to tie stuff up while I get my beasts/assassination into place? Ravagers to see how they do with 8 wound boxes and 2 more ARM? Hmmmm

To me his beast form follows in line with our other casters that do their thing and still have an assassination option ie: Baldur (forest walk), PKrueg (melee sustained atk) and too some extent EKruegs sustained ranged attack. I never play these casters with assassination purely in mind (like PKaya) but it's nice having the option. Plus if you get hit and beast out you are now 3 ARM higher which is a lot nicer then 16 in Human form. Now, would you do that instead of pushing off damage? I would if it was 4 or less, sure, especially if I knew more pain was coming. The fact he can pop beastform while doing his feat is just pure hawtness.

Beast choices, do I think a Shadowhorn is worth it? 3 (Warpath) + 6 SPD + 5 Jump could be sexy, toss in Wild Aggression (to help his booty Mat) and you now have a reliable jump/free toss (Pitch) combo for the rest of your army to destroy or a beast out Kromac assassination. I think we would all agree the ferals are obvious choices and the new Warden is almost always sexy now (except maybe P/EKaya).

Funny that his strongest suit could now be his weakest. Now that he doesn't have Brutality what would you bring to deal with infantry spam? Hmm, Ravagers are always an option there. So much theory and only a week to build/test.

[Zyrael]

Kromac = Done.

Seriously. May I personally applaud Jason Soles, DC, and all the devs who have worked so hard on giving us iteration after iteration of this hard to figure out smexy model.

He is first and foremost: FUN. He is competitive, but never feels broken. His spell list is a PERFECTLY assembled tool box and he always has something to do.

His beast form might not take center stage, or even be a logical choice most of the time, But when advancing into iffy situations it can give you a bit more confidence in your defensive capabilities and discourage assassination, also with a support Warden or Megalith you can still put out a Wild Aggression or Inviolable Resolve. And of course if some caster just ends within 13" of Kromac... they are likely dead.

Indeed the foremost challenge of the new Kromac is cutting down your beast selection, he works so well with so many. My first few games have used Feral/Warden/Gorax. Worked very well.

So I played him in a tournament today. Ended up winning. Mohsar (new and improved) was my alt and he won my round 2. But Kromac won every other Round. In the final round he even killed eStryker with a single axe strike from his shaman form (well finished off.. a primal'd warpwolf started by putting about 12 dmg on him.)

Winning is always nice, but what was better was how much I enjoyed playing with Kromac. I can't stress enough how satisfying he is to play. I haven't enjoyed a caster this much since I first played with Gorten.

in summation.

Send Kromac to the printers, don't change a thing!

[Rosicrucian]

Seconded. Playing Kromac is a great experience now. Fix Morvahna too please PP!

[odinsgrandson]

in summation.

Send Kromac to the printers, don't change a thing!

Thirded.


You have a good point here. He's pretty much perfect.

Morvahna needs a lot of help though. However, I'm really at a loss to suggest much for her.

[Bakemono]

Yep. I'll add a 4th (although I've been pretty happy with Kromac for some time) to it. Kromac is the Warlock at the center of my 50pt All-Comers list and the flexibility he has given me has been priceless. Warpath alone has turned several games for me. His assassination threat range is solid, his support spell list ia excellent, and combined with a nice mix of Warbeasts he can offer board control like nobody's business.

[HenryWard]

My question is whether he's too good.

I certainly don't have an answer myself, since I haven't had a chance to play with or against him, but as a Cryx and Troll player in particular he looks pretty horrifying. No enemy spells within 14" and still enough focus to upkeep all three spells, two of which (Wild Aggression and Warpath) are so good together we don't even get them on the same caster in Trollbloods? I'm terrified.

For those of you who have played with/against him: how did the games go? When he's won, how decisive has it been? When he's lost, how did it go? I'm just curious to hear about it.

[Bakemono]

My question is whether he's too good.

No. He isn't "too" good. He is very balanced. He is a jack of all trades, but master of none. He is beatable. I play him so I give a lot of thought to how I'd beat him. This allows me to predict what opponents will do, and what I'll have to do if/when I end up fighting Kromac on Kromac.

I certainly don't have an answer myself, since I haven't had a chance to play with or against him, but as a Cryx and Troll player in particular he looks pretty horrifying. No enemy spells within 14" and still enough focus to upkeep all three spells, two of which (Wild Aggression and Warpath) are so good together we don't even get them on the same caster in Trollbloods? I'm terrified.

If you are Cryx, you should be frightened. However, since Cryx has a Warcaster who has a very similiar anti-magic field, I don't have that much sympathy. Wild Aggression is rather expensive so I don't think you are going to see it spamming. Warpath, however, is an excellent spell and I cast it early and upkeep it all game along. Trolls, if this puts your mind at ease, have been giving me my toughest fights from my Hordes opponents. My advice to Cryx players, which is solid advice even when you aren't dealing with Kromac, is not to put all your eggs in the magic basket. Even without Kromac, the Circle fields Druids which are devastating to a Cryx battle plan. Make sure you have more than just magic to bring to the table.

[LEJKaya]

I still don't like Rift but I could live with it.

[HenryWard]

Ok, if you've put a lot of thought into how you'd beat him, how would you beat him? Has anyone yet lost with him, and if so, how did it happen? All I see in this thread so far is a tournament win with him.

Again, I haven't yet had a chance to test him, and won't until I get back to the west coast after this weekend, so I don't have anything to complain about per se. I'm just curious if he's yet lost or how you'd do it if you're experienced against him.

Likewise, any tips would be particularly handy so I can test him most properly. I don't think we have any circle players handy who are testing Mark II so I'm going to proxy him up and I'd love thoughts for list construction. I'm thinking a Warden to spam Rift and Forests to gum things up, a Feral to trample around with Wild Aggression (upkept), and a Gorax for lending hitting power, plus infantry to gum up the works and let the beasts and AOEs do their work. With Kromac in the thick of things that means I'm upkeeping 2-3 spells a turn and denying spells, with fury still left over to transfer, and plenty of terrain to gum things up.

[Zyrael]

List I ran was as follows.

Kromac
-Warden
-Feral Warpwolf
-Gorax
Min Ravagers
-UA
Min WoO
Morraig

In a 3 round tournament, he never felt dominant.

First game was against a new player to Warmachine. And at that his first time trying a new faction (Khador) and his first time trying a new caster (pButcher). He lopsided his list building to 3 berzerkers, doom reavers, and fenris. I tore apart his list and used Warpath to advance a warpwolf into charge range of butcher. Kromac's physical interaction with the game was just walking up, jumping, killing one doom reaver and a war dog.

2nd game - Mohsar

3rd game. My opponent has fallen back on infantry machine, and themed infantry machine at that. He brought full Storm Guard, full Storm Blades, a single Stormcaller, Rowdy, a lancer, and eStryker. Oh and Jr. On his 2nd turn he advanced up to form a solid line of infantry about 6.5" from my line of Ravagers + UA, then cast rebuke on the ravagers (missing the first time but hitting the 2nd time). The ravagers just walked their speed and ate an entire unit of stormblades and half a unit of stormguard. The WoO killed a storm guard member and engaged the lancer for Morraig to put some punishment on it. He then used his turn to engage harder, kill a couple ravagers, then feated killing all but one ravager and then putting eStrkyer base to base with Rowdy about 8" from Kromac. So I activated morraig and killed a stormguard member, who opened up the way for the remaining ravager to kill a storm guard member, opening a hole for the primal'd warpwolf to walk up warping str and 2 hand throw rowdy 7.5" away from Stryker. Bought a couple attacks on stryker, then Shaman Form Kromac charged striker and finished it.

I won the last game for 2 reasons. My list adapated itself to his far better than his adapted to mine. And 2nd he stood 8" from Kromac and 6" from a feral warpwolf relying on ONE trooper model blocking an opening to keep him safe.

Kromac did what I wanted, he worked so fluidly and to purpose that It was the most satisfying play experience I've had with a caster in a long time. I tried to realistically grasp what his tools did and use them to their fullest, and I've found when you do that he's quite potent. Now he has weaknesses and things he doesn't do well. He doesn't bring a built in way to deal with heavy armor, so u have to bring a Feral/Gorax combo to take that on. And with his list of upkeeps you pretty much need a warden to get all the spells out you need.

We joked around the store that he shouldn't be Kromac the "Ravenous" anymore. He's Kromac the ""Thoughtful" or the "Tactician" or the "Patient". Thats the kind of caster he is now a planner and strategist. He feels like a strange melding of Irusk and Reznik... but it works.

How would I beat him? Honestly if you can break his army whilst keeping your caster greater than 13" from him it's not hard. Most of the components he can bring are quite fragile and once u have the numerical advantage on him just cram the victory down his throat. If you force him to beast out just to get out of a bad situation you are on your way to victory.

[LEJKaya]

How to beat him?

If you get close to Kromac without killing him you die. So don't do that.
Kromac is all about supporting his beasts and to a lesser extent, some troops with a reasonable ARM buff which is great on Ravagers.

He's not difficult to assassinate, beasting out isn't even that great so its not too hard to kill him but I'd probably try to take out his beasts and leave him with no win condition other than getting close to you, at which point you dictate the game.

[Bakemono]

Exactly. Kromac, like a Warbeast in fact, is a glass cannon. He isn't too difficult to assassinate if you get a window at him. I would target his Wabeasts and attrition him if I were fighting against him. He has a high Fury but he has to feed it. In low point games, a few Warbeasts gone and he is cutting himself just to get full use of his stats. Kromac versus Kromac becomes a purely attrition game as they will both shut down magic, they will both want to stay out of each other's assassination range, and it will all come down to maneuver.