This is not a rant against Khador and I need your help

[Jack Spratt]

Hey

This is not a rant against Khador. I think Khador is a cool faction in many ways, I am just not sure if I belong in the motherland anymore?

I am considering selling my (unpainted) Khador and that is quite a lot of models. I picked Khador as my fist army, back when Prime was black and white, back when you could still buy NQ no. 1, and back when almost nobody had even heard about the game. Since then my collection has grown quite a bit, as has my number of armies. I now own pretty big collections of Khador, Retribution, Mercenaries, Legion and Trollbloods.

I mostly play against the same dude. My usual opponent owns Circle, Skorne, Cygnar, Minions, and Menoth. He also owns a nice Cryx collection, but for a number of reasons he does not want to play Cryx anymore (why is irrelevant here).

Now I am thinking about selling my Khador stuff and buying his Cryx collection instead. Why not just keep your Khador and buy his Cryx collection you ask? Well, the short answer is that 5 armies are enough. I would like them to grow and get bigger, but keeping track of 5 systems of synergy, options, and possibilities are my limit.

There is stuff that has always annoyed me about Khador. I guess I could say that about all my armies, but there have always been a few more things with Khador than with my other armies. I see two possibilities, either I am right about Khador and I leave the motherland for good (and swear an oath to Toruk), or I need to rethink my Khador army and see it in a whole new light (and apologize to Irusk).

You guys would really help me out, if you would be kind enough to comment on or discuss the correctness or soundness of the following statements:



1) I think Khadors lack of arcnodes (aside from Scrapjacks) really limits the number of ways I can use my warcasters. Control Area spells and buff spells are the only ones that really matters. The entire range of debuff and offensive spells are almost irrelevant. It is not just a matter of play style. If you want to win and your opponent is your equal on the tactical level, then you will rarely expose your warcaster and use debuffs and offensive spells. Khador warcasters simply has a fewer number of roles available to them.

2) I feel that Khadorian Jacks are very similar. So similar, that it becomes pretty boring compared to the other factions. If you want to shoot you bring Destroyer(s) or Behemoth. A Devastator or a Spriggan for something actually original and the remaining 7 options is more or less just different packages of the same angry brute force. When I compare to other factions Khador just seem to have a lot less variety. Yes, we have MOWs, but aside form Cygnar, every faction has multi wound medium based infantry options now. It just does not feel very special or exclusive anymore.

Cryx for instance has 13 options that are a lot more diverse than our 11 (not counting Scrapjack). They can choose between 7 bone jacks and 6 heavy. Among the 7 light/bone jacks alone there are multiple Arc Nodes and abilities like Burrow, Stealth, Extended Control Range, and Arcane Assassin (and soon Flight even!). The heavies come on two different chassis' that have different stats and different abilities. There are 4 very different shooting options on the heavies alone. The lack of diversity in Khador jacks translate into less functions and roles on the battlefield, not unlike the warcasters.



I could make a few more of these, but I think I am going to stop here. These are my two main problems with Khador.

Am I all wrong here? Am I forgetting something important? Did I get it just right? Please tell me if you think I am right or wrong, and why you think so.

Please remember that there are many things I do like abut Khador. And remember?

?this was not a rant about Khador

[kingston]

Actually I agree with you on both points.

Once someone learns how to defeat Khador there isn't much to do against it. You can't really switch things out and play things really differently.

How to beat Khador 101,
1. bring something to get rid of upkeeps.
2. bring something to deal with armor.
3. don't let the Khador army charge your entire army.

After your opponent figures these 3 things out it can get pretty difficult for a Khador player.

And once they start bring and or a denial feat to rob you of your one glorious round things get frustrating.

Not trying to bring Khador down, I like them, but I get jealous sometimes.

[Si11y Putty]

1) I think Khadors lack of arcnodes (aside from Scrapjacks) really limits the number of ways I can use my warcasters. Control Area spells and buff spells are the only ones that really matters. The entire range of debuff and offensive spells are almost irrelevant. It is not just a matter of play style. If you want to win and your opponent is your equal on the tactical level, then you will rarely expose your warcaster and use debuffs and offensive spells. Khador warcasters simply has a fewer number of roles available to them.

Are you saying that every other faction has the melee prowess of khador warcasters? I can rely on everybody to take down most warcasters and the awesome def and armor to get them there in one piece, I can't really say that about Denegra. Some of our warcaster's can even take down jacks and beasts with a flick of their wrist. Sure, every caster has a melee weapon and a buncha focus(besides Vayl lol), but don't overlook beatstick as a role a lot of other casters don't have.

I had a lot more to say but i tend to write entire pages and delete them to save people the agony of reading my really long opinions.

[Ninja5]

i love khador. i love that i have to surprise my opponent by doing exactly what he expects me to do. i will say though that the lack of diversity with some of our toys bothers me a little bit. especially with the warjacks. lately when i go to play a game i sit there and wonder what should i use today? the beatstick jack with an axe? or the beatstick jack with a fist?

i like the way the casters play and there have been very few times i've ever lamented not having an arcnode. i'd just like to see something radically different for the faction. something right out of left field where i think, "damn, whoever thought that up... damn, i don't even have words." well, maybe not quite that radical. it still needs to fit aesthetically in the faction. maybe it's just time to come up with a new and interesting chassis design that diverges a bit from the usual.

[osloco]

You can always start Khador again if you decide to sell you army now. Or keep one or two casters and a 35-50 points list you like. By the sounds of your post you want a break and a different playstyle. Pursue that and see if you actually miss Khador.

[eddie]

wait till wraith, maybe something will spoark your interest, only a few months

[Relentless]

Interesting. I've always thought khador was multifaceted. Tough armored & slow creeping, a very capable ranged force and gunline, etc.

[GorBLiTZ]

I feel like everybody has their own play style and if you favor the point s you made it sounds like you are a Cryx player who owns a Khador army. Play what you like. Give Cryx a run in a game or two and see how it goes....

[Kamigawa]

wait till wraith, maybe something will spoark your interest, only a few months

I agree with eddie, what im hoping for is some sort of magic related jack with an arc node for zerkova ( this is just wishful thinking ) , PP could throw us a curve ball ( keeping with the base ball metaphores ).

[B@ttle_R@ge]

I don't understand how you can consider Khador redundant when you play Retribution but that's another pair of pants. I started rather recently and I own pretty much everything in Khador that can be used in competitive play (No MoW, no AK's and no Kossites...) and I find it really hard to deal with some armies. Surprisingly I get to use alot of our units in games that range from 35 to 50 pts and mostly there is 1 or 2 recurring units that are almost always there. I intend to get Cryx as my second army because it plays so much differently from Khador and it will diversify my games and keep the fun factor there for much longer. You might want to drop another one of your armies to get the Cryx instead because Khador is a truly unique army with a truly unique playstyle.

On the other hand, Cryx do have insanely tough casters that can single-handedly take out warjacks: Terminus or Asphyxious, and even Venetrax vs Beasts. Khador doesn't actually have that many caster who can do it: eVlad, pVlad, pButcher and eButcher on a good focus roll... Cryx get some fun archnodes that don't eat out too much of your points and have some really flavourful units overall. Cryx are not a bad army choice, but droping the motherland seems sad too. Like I said before, maybe drop another army instead?

[Gladius]

I agree with what Silly Putty said - Khadoran warcasters (in general) have much better attack stats than other factions, and they are also (generally) tough enough to stand-up to some retaliation. Now, you can't just run them into combat willy-nilly, they are the nail in the coffin. Battle Rage forgot to mention Karchev, and eSorscha on her feat turn, but our casters are excellent at buffing most of the units in our army, which gives plenty of options. We can make our troops faster, give them pathfinder, make them hit harder, or be harder to hit.

I agree that offensive spells and debuffs are not very effective. The lack of arc nodes definitely makes it difficult to target the enemy, but I believe that actually leads to a different problem - when I'm close enough to cast those spells, I'm also close enough that I would rather spend that focus on additional attacks or boosts for my warjacks or warcaster. When my warcaster is farther away from the enemy, I'm going to be busy allocating focus for runs/charges, or casting my upkeeps.

As for warjacks, I'm going to have to disagree with you - it seems like you are getting hung up on the lack of arc-nodes again (which, if that is something that really bothers you, is a perfectly justifiable reason for changing factions!) All of our "Beat Stick" warjacks bring a slightly different toolset to the game. The Juggernaut is your generic, cheap beat-stick. Beast is the "All the bells and whistles" version. The berserker is the bargain basement version - which creates a nice sliding scale that not every faction gets. The Kodiak has pathfinder, and can two-handed throw. The Marauder lets you psuedo-slam. The Spriggan has flares and reach. The Devastator has ARM 25, and an auto-hitting POW 18 attack. For ranged warjacks, we have a direct fire option, an arcing-fire AOE, and a double arcing-fire AOE. All of those have pretty good melee options as well. Finally, MoW may not be your cup of tea, but they do fill the place of light warjacks in our army (which is why we only have 11 warjacks, compared to other factions 13, 14, 15), and they come with a variety of options - like a horse.

My point is that we don't have fewer options, we just have different options. If you're feeling like you want to explore the options available to Cryx, then go for it! I would advise that you and your friend agree to trade armies for a little while, so you can each try out the army you're interested in before actually making that commitment.

[Musketeer]

You seem to think Khador is uncompetitive because of the weaknesses you claim it has yet there are a slew of national championships which have gone to Khador where nobody can claim the opposition didn't know how to play against Khador.

Counter to what you said it is a play style issue. You do not like the styles which lend themselves to Khador and make it competitive. There is nothing wrong with that; just move on to another army whose style you like. Don't try to spin it as the faction is uncompetitive though because there is far too much evidence to the contrary.

[Gladius]

Actually, I don't believe he ever said that Khador was uncompetitive, just that we don't have the tactical diversity of other factions. The closest he came to saying we are uncompetitive was to say that if we want to win, we will rarely use offensive spells or debuffs.

[PG_Shadow37]

To the OP: There are many players out there that get "faction fatigue". I wouldn't try forcing yourself to play a faction that is no longer fun for you to play. Debating each of your points is all well and good, but where does it really get you? Whether your points are proven accurate or not, will that really change your gut feeling on the issue?

Have you ever had somebody try to convince you that a movie you disliked is a good movie? Even if the person has a valid argument you still dislike the movie. No matter what the other person says, on some level you will continue to dislike the movie.

The Motherland will always be there if or when you decide to come back

Good Luck!

[Pikaed]

As to your questions:

1) Yes, apart from a few exceptions, Khador caster do not rely on offensive spells. You will be able to place some razor-wind for assassination sometimes, and Sorscha relies heavily on Tempest and Freezing Grip, but apart from that and the Old Witch offensive spells are not our specialty. On the other hand, we are very good with support spell and control/offensive feats. But if you prefer to sling spells, you should try Cryx.

2) No, Khador warjacks are not all equal. Everyone has its niche: the Juggernaut is a low-cost monster against armoured targets; the Marauder can be used for control with its flexible slam; the Decimator is a melee jack with a gun; the Destroyer is a shooting jack with an axe; the Behemoth can make almost everything; the Kodiak is very good with terrain and massed infantry, and can make interesting things with its free power attack; the Spriggan is our tool against Stealth and very good for long-ranged and accurate charging; the Devastator, well.... it's the Devastator, a wonderful Bulldozer. And so on. No, we do not have light warjacks. If you want them, surely this is not your Faction: Khador is great because our light jack is a psychopathic with two axes that can explode among enemies leaving only smoking craters!

I give you two of the reasons why I play Khador since 2006 and keep playing it.

The first reason is that Khador has a lot of different tools, disguised under a homogeneous appearance. Many people hate Kossites, for example: buy they are very good against support (Menoth in particular). If you want accurate long ranged shooting, you can have it in the form of Winterguard Rifle Korps and Widowmakers. You need immunities? Take Assault Kommandos. And we have access to mercenaries which can solve some of our main problems: take the Bokur, for example, or E-Eyriss, or Ayana and Holt.
Unfortunately, the mainstream of this forum tends to flatten Khador as a Beatstick-only faction: but this is false, trust me (even though there is no doubt that Khador needs to engage in melee in order to eventually win the match). There are a lot of things that you can do with Khador. A lot.

The second reason is that Khadoran casters are particularly different in species and role, each with his peculiarities, and almost none really trivial. Irusk is very good with infantry and control, and overall very flexible. Sorscha is all about offensive attack and can assassinate, E-Sorscha is more support but with heavy punch and can assassinate as well, lectures could be given on how to use Karchev or Strakhov effectively, Vlad can make your army a long-ranged monster or fast hitting Berserkers spam, Old Witch is subtle as a knife, and so on.

Notice that, after MK II, there is no doubt, in my view, that Khador is the weakest faction in Warmachine. So, if you want to win safely, go with Cryx. But Khador is a splendid faction, with a great background, glorious models, and a playstile which seems easy but is in the end very hard to master. You will have to make non-obvious choices. You will have to take mercenaries. You will have to know all your tools perfectly, and not only those two or three units that here are constantly repeated as the only valuable things, and which in the end are only beasticks. At that point, you will be able to win AND enjoy at the same time.

But ignore the appearances, and start with experiments.

[Jack Spratt]

Are you saying that every other faction has the melee prowess of khador warcasters? I can rely on everybody to take down most warcasters and the awesome def and armor to get them there in one piece, I can't really say that about Denegra. Some of our warcaster's can even take down jacks and beasts with a flick of their wrist. Sure, every caster has a melee weapon and a buncha focus(besides Vayl lol), but don't overlook beatstick as a role a lot of other casters don't have.

I had a lot more to say but i tend to write entire pages and delete them to save people the agony of reading my really long opinions.

You have a valid point. I do tend to over look beatstickiness as a function/role. I will think about this.

I don't understand how you can consider Khador redundant when you play Retribution but that's another pair of pants.

Like I said before, maybe drop another army instead?

I decided to buy retribution even before they were out. I love the design. Yes, I even like the Myrmidons. Playing retribution feels a little like Cygnar, and ... and thats just nice. I know it is shamefull.

I agree that offensive spells and debuffs are not very effective. The lack of arc nodes definitely makes it difficult to target the enemy, but I believe that actually leads to a different problem - when I'm close enough to cast those spells, I'm also close enough that I would rather spend that focus on additional attacks or boosts for my warjacks or warcaster. When my warcaster is farther away from the enemy, I'm going to be busy allocating focus for runs/charges, or casting my upkeeps.

As for warjacks, I'm going to have to disagree with you - it seems like you are getting hung up on the lack of arc-nodes again (which, if that is something that really bothers you, is a perfectly justifiable reason for changing factions!) All of our "Beat Stick" warjacks bring a slightly different toolset to the game. The Juggernaut is your generic, cheap beat-stick. Beast is the "All the bells and whistles" version. The berserker is the bargain basement version - which creates a nice sliding scale that not every faction gets. The Kodiak has pathfinder, and can two-handed throw. The Marauder lets you psuedo-slam. The Spriggan has flares and reach. The Devastator has ARM 25, and an auto-hitting POW 18 attack. For ranged warjacks, we have a direct fire option, an arcing-fire AOE, and a double arcing-fire AOE. All of those have pretty good melee options as well. Finally, MoW may not be your cup of tea, but they do fill the place of light warjacks in our army (which is why we only have 11 warjacks, compared to other factions 13, 14, 15), and they come with a variety of options - like a horse.

My point is that we don't have fewer options, we just have different options. If you're feeling like you want to explore the options available to Cryx, then go for it! I would advise that you and your friend agree to trade armies for a little while, so you can each try out the army you're interested in before actually making that commitment.

Gladius, you have some nice points. I almost always choose to use the focus like you describe. And that just gets a little boring in the long run.

Your description of our jacks are very accurate, but I still think we have a lack of diversity compared to other factions. Here I am most tinking about the other 3 "old" factions.

I have a lot of MOWs and I like them. I guess they do fill the role of light jacks (to some extent), it is just not the same anymore when most factions has acces to similar "ligh jack substitutes". Maby if Khador had more MOW characters, solos, UA and WAs, a MOW warcaster would be neat too.

Thanks for the input guys.

[Jack Spratt]

To the OP: There are many players out there that get "faction fatigue". I wouldn't try forcing yourself to play a faction that is no longer fun for you to play. Debating each of your points is all well and good, but where does it really get you? Whether your points are proven accurate or not, will that really change your gut feeling on the issue?

Have you ever had somebody try to convince you that a movie you disliked is a good movie? Even if the person has a valid argument you still dislike the movie. No matter what the other person says, on some level you will continue to dislike the movie.

The Motherland will always be there if or when you decide to come back

Good Luck!

I can think of nothing to say. This is sound reason and good thinking. Do not write stuff like this, you will end up shutting down the forum

[Relentless]

I have a lot of MOWs and I like them. I guess they do fill the role of light jacks (to some extent), it is just not the same anymore when most factions has acces to similar "ligh jack substitutes". Maby if Khador had more MOW characters, solos, UA and WAs, a MOW warcaster would be neat too.

A MoW warcaster? Don't you guys have one step above that? Don't you guys have a warjack caster? I think his name is Karchev.

[tsochung]

Actually I agree with you on both points.

Once someone learns how to defeat Khador there isn't much to do against it. You can't really switch things out and play things really differently.

How to beat Khador 101,
1. bring something to get rid of upkeeps.
2. bring something to deal with armor.
3. don't let the Khador army charge your entire army.

After your opponent figures these 3 things out it can get pretty difficult for a Khador player.

And once they start bring and or a denial feat to rob you of your one glorious round things get frustrating.

Not trying to bring Khador down, I like them, but I get jealous sometimes.

Don't jealous , grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence, just learn to deal with those weakness

Every Khador weakness is balance for their strength, the victory in both gencon and pax tournament this year already prove that Khador is a superior faction. (sure you can still argue that those players in tourament weren't as wise as you so they could not figure out how to beat Khador )

[Jack Spratt]

I think we are getting a little sidetracked here. The issue is not if Khador is a weak faction or not. I have never had "special" troubles winning with Khador.

[OrsusSmash]

Another thing worth asking: what warcaster spread are you using? I find that with Khador especially, changing up the warcaster I'm using greatly alters how I use the models I brought.

For example, both Irusks share a "lead from the back" style (though there is a difference in execution between epic and non-epic.) With Irusk, you're typically hanging back, buffing your troopers when they need it, tossing out an Airburst if you need to, and maybe fueling a warjack.

In contrast, Vlad1 leads from the front by blanket buffing his army, and giving you the tools you need to ram warjacks down your opponent's throat. Vlad2 leads form the back like Irusk does, but does it in a very "directly enabling" way that highlights individual models (and the inherent power of Khador's troopers.)

Other end of the spectrum: Old Witch is all about playing positioning games, board control, and generally being a menace. Playing her gives you a vastly different experience from anything else in Khador (particularly because she has an arc node, and one or two spells you absolutely want to use turn by turn.)

Just changing up the warcaster can do a lot for refreshing the way you look at the army. Likewise, using different warcasters highlights the different strengths and uses of our warjacks. While it may seem like all the Khador warjacks are all made out of face-beating, in reality every one of them has a specific role on tabletop, and you want to bring each one of them for very different reasons.

To put it another way: I've played Khador as my primary faction since I started playing PP games 3-4 years ago. I've dabbled in other factions (specifically: Cygnar and Skorne,) and I've collected a big 'ol Legion army. Having played all those armies, I have to say that I don't feel Khador's warjack choices are any less rich or diverse than other faction's, though I will agree that the differences are subtle (which is ironic, considering how un-subtle Khador is about a lot of things. )

Likewise, I've played factions that use arc nodes, and while I do agree they offer up different play style choices, they frequently also limit play style choices just as much (least of which not being that you usually end up paying 4-6 points for a model who is dedicated to getting your spells where they need to be, which in turn limits army choices a bit more.)

Even after all these years of playing Khador, I'm surprised by the amount of variance in how I use my warcasters and warjacks. In a lot of ways, Khador's variety is based on subtleties, and thats certainly not something that appeals to everyone. But I don't think that as a faction our warcasters are any less flexible/diverse, nor are our warjacks any less diverse than other factions.

I think all you may need is a little list shuffling.

[Gladius]

A MoW warcaster? Don't you guys have one step above that? Don't you guys have a warjack caster? I think his name is Karchev.

Yep, we sure do. He doesn't do anything for MoW though, which is why we still want a MoW caster.

Several people have made the point that Khador's variety is subtle. If it's subtle, it's because we get distracted by the shiny beatstick. I can't count how many discussion threads have lamented model X, stating that it's special abilities don't make up for the raw damage output of model Y. We're so used to our "basic" troops having high damage output (12 to 13 seems pretty normal to me), that anything less leaves a bad taste in our mouth. As a result, we limit our model choices to those whose primary purpose is high damage output, and each army looks like the last army.

I can think of nothing to say. This is sound reason and good thinking. Do not write stuff like this, you will end up shutting down the forum.

Naw, we come here to debate. We aren't going to stop.

[BlitzR]

Finally, MoW may not be your cup of tea, but they do fill the place of light warjacks in our army (which is why we only have 11 warjacks, compared to other factions 13, 14, 15), and they come with a variety of options - like a horse.

I hate the MoW vs light warjack comparison. It is now, more than ever, totally irrelevant as every faction (except Cygnar) has medium based, multi-wound infantry. The sad part is that in most cases they have better (more flexible and able to provide more and better buffing options) medium based infantry the we do!

[Gladius]

I hate the MoW vs light warjack comparison. It is now, more than ever, totally irrelevant as every faction (except Cygnar) has medium based, multi-wound infantry. The sad part is that in most cases they have better (more flexible and able to provide more and better buffing options) medium based infantry the we do!

I had to go back and count the number of warjacks that PoM has - it's 15. Which means that they got their full complement of warjacks, and have heavy, medium based, multi-wound infantry. So I'll withdraw my argument. At least partially. Khador is still the only faction to have 2 Dragoons. It doesn't make up for everything, but it's a pretty good start.

[Jack Spratt]

I hate the MoW vs light warjack comparison. It is now, more than ever, totally irrelevant as every faction (except Cygnar) has medium based, multi-wound infantry. The sad part is that in most cases they have better (more flexible and able to provide more and better buffing options) medium based infantry the we do!

I agree completely. You just say it a lot better than I ever could

[Ector]

1) I think Khadors lack of arcnodes (aside from Scrapjacks) really limits the number of ways I can use my warcasters. Control Area spells and buff spells are the only ones that really matters. The entire range of debuff and offensive spells are almost irrelevant. It is not just a matter of play style. If you want to win and your opponent is your equal on the tactical level, then you will rarely expose your warcaster and use debuffs and offensive spells. [U]Khador warcasters simply has a fewer number of roles available to them.

I felt the same way my first month in Khador. But, actually, Scrapjack is much better than most other arcnode jacks. If you count that Old Witch has total 6 warjack points (average), then Scrapjack costs 3 points. Where did you see such costs?
Anyway, imagine that you have the arcnode jack. What caster would use it? We don't have "spellcaster kills" like Cryx.

2) I feel that Khadorian Jacks are very similar. So similar, that it becomes pretty boring compared to the other factions. If you want to shoot you bring Destroyer(s) or Behemoth. A Devastator or a Spriggan for something actually original and the remaining 7 options is more or less just different packages of the same angry brute force. When I compare to other factions Khador just seem to have a lot less variety. Yes, we have MOWs, but aside form Cygnar, every faction has multi wound medium based infantry options now. It just does not feel very special or exclusive anymore.

You are very, very far from truth. Is Devastator similar to Juggernaut? Is Berserker similar to one of them? Or maybe Spriggan looks like Decimator? Or which of our jacks is similar to which?

Cryx for instance has 13 options that are a lot more diverse than our 11 (not counting Scrapjack). They can choose between 7 bone jacks and 6 heavy. Among the 7 light/bone jacks alone there are multiple Arc Nodes and abilities like Burrow, Stealth, Extended Control Range, and Arcane Assassin (and soon Flight even!). The heavies come on two different chassis' that have different stats and different abilities. There are 4 very different shooting options on the heavies alone.

Diversity isn't our real strength, right. But what do you prefer - to be diverse or to win?

[fatetwister64]

This might be a dumb one.

Try playing against other people? Look around your area, find a game shop that runs a WM night and go. I mostly play against the same person as well, and it was really refreshing to get to go over to a shop once a week or every few weeks, play new games, talk tactics with new people.

[Musketeer]

This might be a dumb one.

Try playing against other people? Look around your area, find a game shop that runs a WM night and go. I mostly play against the same person as well, and it was really refreshing to get to go over to a shop once a week or every few weeks, play new games, talk tactics with new people.

The above post makes a great point. You have one opponent. Different opponents make for different games.

[Jack Spratt]

The above post makes a great point. You have one opponent. Different opponents make for different games.

Well i dunno...
I do play other people when I want to.
Mostly, I play against my usual opponent, and that has worked out pretty well for more than 20 years now....
Besides, even if I wanted to use many hours at my LGS my options would be limited. Stuff like wife, kids, work, and wife springs to mind.

[B@ttle_R@ge]

Well i dunno...
I do play other people when I want to.
Mostly, I play against my usual opponent, and that has worked out pretty well for more than 20 years now....
Besides, even if I wanted to use many hours at my LGS my options would be limited. Stuff like wife, kids, work, and wife springs to mind.

You must really keeping her on your mind to repeat it twice. :P

[CeltKhan]

Just an aside: don't automatically think other factions have "more warjacks." You say Cryx has seven lights. They don't; they have four. Deathripper, Nightwretch, Defiler, and Ripjaw are taken for the arcnode; any secondary functions are just that: secondary.

As for the other three, they're generally ignored because they are not arcnodes. Stalker is focus-hungry, a high priority target, and has tissue paper for armor. Helldiver is disliked because it has one attack and spends most of its time off the table (and is slower than the others). I can't even remember the other one.

Not slamming on Cryx, but the grass isn't always greener. If you want to play them, that's one thing, but don't be seduced by a "variety" that isn't there.

[Musketeer]

Well i dunno...
I do play other people when I want to.
Mostly, I play against my usual opponent, and that has worked out pretty well for more than 20 years now....
Besides, even if I wanted to use many hours at my LGS my options would be limited. Stuff like wife, kids, work, and wife springs to mind.

Same boat. It is tough but there are definite benefits to changing the opposition around.

[Auramaster]

I agree in part with the gut feeling the original poster might be trying to convey, although my own thoughts on the subject are a bit vague:

When playing Khador I often get the sense that I have less 'I win' buttons and fewer very strong and very unique synergies than my opponent.
1. Take a look at the typical Khador jack: 4 speed and 20 armor with no synergistic armor buffs on any Khador caster. I often play vs. Cygnar or Mercs and face faster jacks with 'batten down the hatches' or 'arcane shield', which effectively makes them more resilient than our guys. Also our speed spells are more of a compensation for spd 4, rather than a direct synergy or a direct buff. Its as if our jacks were pretty bad at the start of the game, and get to be decent with caster buffs; but as if their jacks were decent at the start of the game and get to be great with caster buffs.
2. Our best synergies lie in our infantry, which in the case of Kayazy and WGI deathstar (and nyss mercs) rely on very high defence and low armor. However these units have some glarring weaknesses: AOEs and lightning... making them very weak vs some lists. Our MOW heavy infantry choices are mediocre, because they are not all that resilient and are expensive. MoW will usually get blown apart by competitive lists, due to their short threat range and poor board control options.
3. We don't get the sheer 'silly factor' of Siege, Feral Warpwolves, eDenny, or Saeryn.
4. Our casters lack the possibility of slinging offensive spells (no arc nodes, few good offensive spells)

All of this means that Khador is a hard faction to play because we have nothing that is over the top. However I really enjoy playing Khador, because we do have a lot of subtle synergies and slightly different options. Its from those slight differences that a Khador army obtains its character and playstyle.

Basically I just want to say that I can understand some players saying we have fewer drastically different options, but we have plenty of subtly different options. I also feel we lack devastating 'i win' buttons to build an army around.

[Gladius]

I'm not sure that I completely agree with you, Auramaster. I think we have several "I win" buttons. Sorscha's feat has been nerfed twice, and it still makes our opponents cry cheese. It's not as ridiculously easy to pull off anymore, but that just means you need to use tactics and build a list to take advantage of it - which is where the fun is, right? Signs and Portents from pVlad, and eVlad's feat still turn good models into ridiculously good models. And then there's the Butcher, who, if you can deliver him to the heart of the enemy, will rip your opponent's warcaster in two, so he can reach into the gooey mess and pull their steaming, still-beating heart from the quickly cooling corpse.

It seems to me like people always claim that Faction X has model A, B, and C that have devastating synergy, and thus more options than we do. Can someone put together a list of 10 "I win" buttons from another faction? I think that each faction has 3-5 really powerful combinations that are hard for people to counter. We just happened to get ours way back in the beginning, so people have had a long time to figure out how to counter them, and they don't have the "ooh, shiny" factor anymore.

[Jack Spratt]

I agree in part with the gut feeling the original poster might be trying to convey, although my own thoughts on the subject are a bit vague:

When playing Khador I often get the sense that I have less 'I win' buttons and fewer very strong and very unique synergies than my opponent.
1. Take a look at the typical Khador jack: 4 speed and 20 armor with no synergistic armor buffs on any Khador caster. I often play vs. Cygnar or Mercs and face faster jacks with 'batten down the hatches' or 'arcane shield', which effectively makes them more resilient than our guys. Also our speed spells are more of a compensation for spd 4, rather than a direct synergy or a direct buff. Its as if our jacks were pretty bad at the start of the game, and get to be decent with caster buffs; but as if their jacks were decent at the start of the game and get to be great with caster buffs.
2. Our best synergies lie in our infantry, which in the case of Kayazy and WGI deathstar (and nyss mercs) rely on very high defence and low armor. However these units have some glarring weaknesses: AOEs and lightning... making them very weak vs some lists. Our MOW heavy infantry choices are mediocre, because they are not all that resilient and are expensive. MoW will usually get blown apart by competitive lists, due to their short threat range and poor board control options.
3. We don't get the sheer 'silly factor' of Siege, Feral Warpwolves, eDenny, or Saeryn.
4. Our casters lack the possibility of slinging offensive spells (no arc nodes, few good offensive spells)

All of this means that Khador is a hard faction to play because we have nothing that is over the top. However I really enjoy playing Khador, because we do have a lot of subtle synergies and slightly different options. Its from those slight differences that a Khador army obtains its character and playstyle.

Basically I just want to say that I can understand some players saying we have fewer drastically different options, but we have plenty of subtly different options. I also feel we lack devastating 'i win' buttons to build an army around.

Hey

Well said sir! I think perhaps that "subtle synergies and slightly different options" is what I am calling a lack of diversity, particularly when it comes to warjacks. The difference between you and me is probably that I often find it annoying.

[ringkichard]

Setting aside the issue of power for a moment (I personally believe that Khador has no difficulty fielding a top flight competitive list, and it doesn't seem like you disagree, particularly) and focusing only on issues of diversity and play experience, I think you're largely right. Khadoran melee warjacks are largely an un-diversified stable of big red murderbots, and our warcasters are generally similar. If you want diversity in Khador, you're going to have to play with the outliers:

1. Old Witch - Nothing at all like the other Khador Warcasters (and as an aside, probably one of Khador's most powerful), her arc-node, control oriented feat and spell-list, and very high effective focus, all make her a unique Khadoran experience.
2. Strakov and pSorscha - Khador's two assassin casters fill out the strategic triangle of control, assassination, and attrition. The Old Witch is our one control caster (Zerkova would be one, if she was any good whatsoever), These two are our assassins (though the repeated beatings pSorcha has taken with the nerf-bat might weaken her standing here), and all the rest of our casters are attritional.
3. Kayazy Assassins - Stealth and High Defense aren't the normal Khadoran methods of war.
4. Devastator - Most other Khadoran jacks are supposed to receive a buff spell and then go catapulting into a valuable enemy target, but the Dev is largely content to get to a position and stay put. An Autohit AOE that is really an afterthought to sitting on a control point and laughing contemptuously at puny southerners may be what Khador warjacks are supposed to be in the fluff, but the Dev really is one of a kind.
5. Fenris - There's nothing else in Khador like him. Fast without buffs, magic immune, and murderous.
6. Torch - When he's widely released, will be a spray delivery system par excelance.

If you're playing with these and still find Khador to be a one-trick-pony, then yeah, I think you've exhausted all the variety Khador has. Otherwise, give them a try, and see if you can't get some more mileage out of your collection before taking the expensive and difficult step of switching factions.

[squee]

Khador jacks are very diverse in their functions collectively, but as individuals each jack is built for at most two things:

Berserker - heavy cracker and suicide bomber
Juggernaut - dedicated heavy cracker
Destroyer - concentrated fire on heavies (its melee is quite crap and AOE 3 is only useful for deviation-killing stealth solos)
Marauder - directional slam machine; easier to aim slams. heavy-cracking specialist
Kodiak - maneuverable control piece; also sets up for shooty armies by knocking target down
(Kodiak + 2 mortars + Butcher's feat = hilarious)
Devastator - crowd control, objective holder
Behemoth - Shooter, heavy-cracker (I find the guns quite redundant on that thing and wish they just gave it more armor instead)
Spriggan - versatile heavy-cracker, stealth eliminator
Decimator - dedicated heavy-cracker; crap focus-hungry gun.
Torch - dedicated heavy-cracker; maneuverable. (What the Decimator should have been)

With prohibitive costs, slow speed, easily debuffed armor and horrendous accuracy, how do we get by? A massive damage grid. I've found even the cheapest jacks of our faction have 30+ damage boxes and spamming the cheap jacks with a good focus-efficient caster makes for a very uphill battle for your opponent. For each jack he wants to destroy; he's gonna have to earn it.

Though we don't have 'near-invincible' armies (i.e: Haley and her bloody untouchable long-gunner/hunters galore build), Khador has some pretty good comboes (Like my eButcher/Marauder madness which has gotten me several good wins with Marauders charging 9" with MAT 8, then moving another 6 to bludgeon a caster senseless). Unfortunately a lot of our comboes are quite predictable so it's up to the player to position his units so his opponent doesn't see him coming.

Granted though our machines have horrible maneuverability, it's not really their job to be maneuverable. Why else would we have all those SPD 6 and pathfinder troops? Our casters are capable of giving short bursts of speed (Except pButcher, which gets quite frustrating at times when shooty armies run rings around me) that send 1 or 2 jacks hurtling at above average speed into the enemy.

For fear of sounding like a stuck record (I must have said this 3 or 4 times in other threads) Khador's not easy to use, but it is rewarding. Despite my initial resistance to the idea (GW left me with a severe dislike of infantry and i spent the last 5 years trying to play nothing but jacks and solos) I've found Khador is at its most effective as a combined arms force; using versatile infantry with beatstick jacks or beatstick infantry with versatile jacks.

Despite my first impressions of the faction; i realized that to get by with Khador, you gotta play smart. Not every caster works with every jack, but when we find the right pairing, it is a thing of beauty.

Dammit I forgot wot my point was...

[squee]

When playing Khador I often get the sense that I have less 'I win' buttons and fewer very strong and very unique synergies than my opponent.

...And it's so fun grinding those soft 'i win' armies into the dust isn't it? Take that, Mk 1 Darius! Can't use your owtfcheese feat when Widowmakers are taking your half-jacks out every turn, innit?! Bwahahahahahaha!

1. Take a look at the typical Khador jack: 4 speed and 20 armor with no synergistic armor buffs on any Khador caster. I often play vs. Cygnar or Mercs and face faster jacks with 'batten down the hatches' or 'arcane shield', which effectively makes them more resilient than our guys. Also our speed spells are more of a compensation for spd 4, rather than a direct synergy or a direct buff. Its as if our jacks were pretty bad at the start of the game, and get to be decent with caster buffs; but as if their jacks were decent at the start of the game and get to be great with caster buffs.

I hear you, but the best thing is keeping in mind the right tool for the right job. Personally I feel the Menoth jacks are ridiculous; almost khador jacks that have some of the most ridiculous jack support I have ever seen (Severius, Choir, Vassal, Vassal Mechanik) Result: An Avatar that can't be shot (Choir) , ignores the first damage roll taken (Caster), dances out of range on the second hit (Vassal) and then gets fixed up, ready to charge your committed model on his turn.

Solution? Marauder slammed him into a wall and a second Marauder with Fury jumped on him and started wailing.

2. Our best synergies lie in our infantry, which in the case of Kayazy and WGI deathstar (and nyss mercs) rely on very high defence and low armor. However these units have some glarring weaknesses: AOEs and lightning... making them very weak vs some lists. Our MOW heavy infantry choices are mediocre, because they are not all that resilient and are expensive. MoW will usually get blown apart by competitive lists, due to their short threat range and poor board control options.

I agree; Demo Korps are nowhere near resilient and Shocktroopers gain resilience at the cost of moving like a quadriplegic tortoise. However, it's up to the other elements of the army to help cover for these weaknesses (e.g: shielding Demo Korps with a pair of Devvies)

3. We don't get the sheer 'silly factor' of Siege, Feral Warpwolves, eDenny, or Saeryn.

On the bright side, it means our wins feel a lot more honest. After years of gaming in another system infamous for its ridiculous power creeping I'm pleased that even a supposedly underpowered faction with so many glaring weaknesses can crush others competitively.

4. Our casters lack the possibility of slinging offensive spells (no arc nodes, few good offensive spells)

All of this means that Khador is a hard faction to play because we have nothing that is over the top. However I really enjoy playing Khador, because we do have a lot of subtle synergies and slightly different options. Its from those slight differences that a Khador army obtains its character and playstyle.

Basically I just want to say that I can understand some players saying we have fewer drastically different options, but we have plenty of subtly different options.

A bit long, but you're right there. We are Khador! We don't need soft Southern tricks! We have classical Khadoran Engineering and tactical genius!

Dissenter: "But, Squee... You're a p and eButcher player, what do you know about tactical geni-!"

*Shoots dissenter with Blunderbuss*

[Ector]

I think I've got the reason of all these complains. Looks like the OP wants "I win" buttons like assassination combos most other factions have; unfortunately, Khador is poor on such things (except for Strakhov's Overrun, eButcher's Doomies and eVlad's Uhlans). Most factions have proactive things, Khador is an armored behemoth that often wins by being reactive.
How often did you encounter that-nasty-assassination-combo that simply bounced off your high ARM or DEF? How often your enemy tried to destroy your jack but failed and got destroyed itself? How often he was forced to devote so many resources to destroy your troops that you won via strategic advantage somewhere else?
Not that I like to be reactive myself, but it's the traditional Khadoran way. And it really wins.

[Jack Spratt]

Setting aside the issue of power for a moment (I personally believe that Khador has no difficulty fielding a top flight competitive list, and it doesn't seem like you disagree, particularly) and focusing only on issues of diversity and play experience, I think you're largely right. Khadoran melee warjacks are largely an un-diversified stable of big red murderbots, and our warcasters are generally similar. If you want diversity in Khador, you're going to have to play with the outliers:

1. Old Witch - Nothing at all like the other Khador Warcasters (and as an aside, probably one of Khador's most powerful), her arc-node, control oriented feat and spell-list, and very high effective focus, all make her a unique Khadoran experience.
2. Strakov and pSorscha - Khador's two assassin casters fill out the strategic triangle of control, assassination, and attrition. The Old Witch is our one control caster (Zerkova would be one, if she was any good whatsoever), These two are our assassins (though the repeated beatings pSorcha has taken with the nerf-bat might weaken her standing here), and all the rest of our casters are attritional.
3. Kayazy Assassins - Stealth and High Defense aren't the normal Khadoran methods of war.
4. Devastator - Most other Khadoran jacks are supposed to receive a buff spell and then go catapulting into a valuable enemy target, but the Dev is largely content to get to a position and stay put. An Autohit AOE that is really an afterthought to sitting on a control point and laughing contemptuously at puny southerners may be what Khador warjacks are supposed to be in the fluff, but the Dev really is one of a kind.
5. Fenris - There's nothing else in Khador like him. Fast without buffs, magic immune, and murderous.
6. Torch - When he's widely released, will be a spray delivery system par excelance.

If you're playing with these and still find Khador to be a one-trick-pony, then yeah, I think you've exhausted all the variety Khador has. Otherwise, give them a try, and see if you can't get some more mileage out of your collection before taking the expensive and difficult step of switching factions.

Diversity and play experience is exactly what this is about. I own and use all of the mentioned models. Well, not Torch.

I think I've got the reason of all these complains. Looks like the OP wants "I win" buttons like assassination combos most other factions have; unfortunately, Khador is poor on such things (except for Strakhov's Overrun, eButcher's Doomies and eVlad's Uhlans). Most factions have proactive things, Khador is an armored behemoth that often wins by being reactive.
How often did you encounter that-nasty-assassination-combo that simply bounced off your high ARM or DEF? How often your enemy tried to destroy your jack but failed and got destroyed itself? How often he was forced to devote so many resources to destroy your troops that you won via strategic advantage somewhere else?
Not that I like to be reactive myself, but it's the traditional Khadoran way. And it really wins.

You are way off. There is no such thing as a "win button" in this game. The game is superbly balanced between the factions. If you by "win button" mean "really good stuff" then I think Khador has its share of "win buttons". This is not about winning or loosing, it is about how much fun I get out of my toys.