Shift towards shooting?

[Mannen]

Since the MkII rules went official, I've noticed a considerable shift towards gunline style armies. Have any of you guys noticed the same, or is it just my local meta?

I have to admit that I do feel a little bit bitter towards this (local?) phenomenon. When I signed up for this game it was to get away from boring stand offish games that revolved around who had the biggest/most guns. I wanted a game where close combat and clever manoeuvres won the day, a game where victory favored the aggressor instead of the "smart" guy who camped in his deployment zone all game.

I'm starting to feel that Warmachine MkII, at least locally, isn't that game anymore.

The loss of screening was huge. There's just no other way to put it.
Yes, everyone is affected by it - but I kinda feel that the guy with 20+ guns in his army has the biggest benefit here. 20+ guns means not Cryx, at least not mine.

Certain key shooting units were either made more viable do to lowered cost, or increased efficency. ATGM:s are a good example of the former, and winterguard rocketeers a good example of the latter.

Looking at the releases to come, a majority of them have ranged weapons; Sloan, Firefly, Cygnar Heavy, Khador heavy, Corruptor, Trencher commandos, scattergunners, di la Rovissi, Harlan and Bull.

With Cryx shooting fairly marginal (Pistol wraiths, bloat and the occasional jack), our 'node costs jacked up, more magical ranged weapons and (slightly) more viable ways to ignore stealth I'm feeling kind of left behind.

For the last 20-25 games I've only been able to play with a fairly small selection of my Cryx army, because I know that I'll be facing massive gunlines (mainly Cygnar, with a touch of Khador) and a lot of my models will simply not be very competetive against that kind of opposition.
Its starting to get rather tedious and less fun.

Anyways in short; does the future of Warmachine hold a smoking gun?


Disclaimer: I've really tried not to rant. I'm sorry if I come off like that anyways. I'm just really concerned, and would like to know if I'm the only one with these issues/questions/fears.

[69Lazarus]

Are you playing scenario games or just caster kill? I too saw a big upsurge in gunline type tactics in caster kill games but since switching to scenario games I've seen much less of it.

[2LiveIs2Die]

Yes, I see the shift towards either shooting or a one turn wonder that usually involves a feat that makes it so something goes 20+ inches across the board and attacks. As far as armies with the moargawns theory behind it, I had a problem with it at first, and realized if that's what people are going to do, cryx has some valuable tools to fix that.

Tool a: Stealth and incorporeal. Yes, a lot of magic weapons were added, and there are some affects (such as gun mages with the UA) that ignore these abilities, but if you don't see them, you have the upper hand on your opponent, and if you do see them, they have to devote those abilities to your stealth models if you make them a threat. Putting occultation on bile thralls is scary for just about any opponent, as is bane thralls and tartarus without help needed.

Tool b: Line of sight denial. Large based models that are cheap and block los, Gorman's smoke clouds, epic Lich's possibility without soul tokens of 3 smoke clouds, Iron lich has smoke clouds, the coven make enemy LOS 5".. There a long list, blocking los makes it so 99% of things in warmachine/hordes don't get the first hit on you.

Tool c: Speed and high defense. One of these things alone is a good benifit, but both of them together make it so those pesky things that keep shooting you go from overpowered in your opinion to one hit wonders, such as deliverers, long gunners, etc. Bone jacks are still def. 15, arm 14 is easy to kill, but if you don't see something with a rat 8 base in range, it'll either usually miss or have to boost. Satyxis Raiders def 16 with sea witch, and they ignore blast damage, and they have 7" SPD, pathfinder, reach.. 12 inch threat range, and if you use the witches mini-feat for an additional die on damage, a first strike from them can be devistating. More so with a bump up form iron lich having +2 melee damage roll spell, or pSkarre having +5 str/arm, a early feat will destroy a front line, and they will tend to survive at 14 DEF 17 ARM.

Tool d: Point cost vs. model quality. We can get a lot of good models really cheap, and i mean good, not over the top - stop before you wet yourself - put it in your pants jimmy models, i mean plain and simply - good. A unit of mechanithralls for 5 points is .5 points per model that can effectively hit for a pow 15 or [2x] pow 11s. We can afford one of the best heavies ever simply because it moves 6", has DEF 13, has [3x] melee attacks at MAT 7, and only cost SIX - Freaking - Points (the slayer, of course).


Oh yeah: I agree with laz, Playing only caster kill games turns armies from warmachine to turtle machine, go to your local PG and get a couple of the new scenarios.

[Jyggdrasil]

Scenarios FTW!

(and no, I haven't seen such a shift around here)

[Mannen]

We play 90% scenarios, we just find it alot more fun and even I guess.

Funny thing is I just got a new guy interested in the game. He's borrowed my friends Cygnar for 10 or so games and now he wanted to proxy Khador, since he's really into their style.

So I'm like; "Finally - no more gun lines, maybe just a mortar and widowmakers, this is going to be a nice change of pace". So I built a list containing all the stuff that I usually don't use: revenants, black ogryns, biles and stuff - a decent and fun list that would provide an adequate challenge for him (remember, he's a newbie).

And he turned up with 2 mortars, 10 winterguards, 3 rocketeers, Kovnik Joe, Widowmakers, Eiryss and a couple of 'jacks...

That's what I get for being a nice guy I guess

[Mannen]

That was a very well thought out post 2LiveIs2Die.

In my meta however, not many of your solutions apply though. B13 and ATGM with the Dude shuts down Incorporeal/stealth real fast, as does the Stormcaller. And if I'm investing heavily in units with those kind of abilities (banes, blackbanes) I generally don't have much that can exploit the "shooting vacuum" that appears when he concentrates on killing those units, since banes/blackbanes are rather expensive in points and we usually just play for 30-35 pts.

I've found that the best way of dealing with it is to just load up on 'jacks and go to town!

My point is this; gunlines are beatable, but I still feel that their increased efficiency tend to exclude a fair share of our models from competetive play.
Many of my lists feel "samey". And I can't help but feeling left behind in what I perceive as a literal arms race.

[2LiveIs2Die]

Well there's nothing wrong with a khador army that has 2 jacks and infantry, look at it this way: I usually run four jacks, totally ~20 points (2-3 bone jacks, 1-3 helljacks)... On average a khador jack cost about 8-9 points, where i get a helljack for 6, up to 12, khadors range starts at 7 and goes to 13, and they have incredible staying power.
And the infantry he took is in no way bad =]

[Mannen]

Oh, there wasn't anything wrong with his army. I just thought it was ironic that he chose to make his first Khador army into a gunline.
Well, my gloves are off now! MOAR BANEZ!

[2LiveIs2Die]

Oh, there wasn't anything wrong with his army. I just thought it was ironic that he chose to make his first Khador army into a gunline.
Well, my gloves are off now! MOAR BANEZ!

Seriously, bane knights with occultation is crazy, they already can't really be hindered as far as their 10" threat range, gaining stealth is insane, and a curse from tartarus makes their threat range 12", so amazing.

[Jyggdrasil]

For the last 20-25 games I've only been able to play with a fairly small selection of my Cryx army, because I know that I'll be facing massive gunlines (mainly Cygnar, with a touch of Khador)

Can you tell us what you are usually running?

[Mannen]

Well, my selection of models is as follows:

Denny
edenny
Skarre
Eskarre
PGaspy
PGoreshade
Mortenebra
Terminus (my xmas gift for myself, haven't assembled him yet)

10x McThralls
10x Bane thralls
10x Bane knights
5x Black ogryn
10x Revenants
8x Biles
6x Satyxis
Necrosurgeoun

Deathjack
Seether
Slayer
Reaper
Harrower
2x Nightwretches
2x Deathrippers
Helldiver
Stalker

2x Pistol wraiths
Skarlock
Rengrave
2x Brutes
Necrotech
3x Scraps
Machine wraith
Slaughterborn
Tartarus
Sea witch
Bloat
WSC


Out of the aforementioned models, I usually only include Bane thralls, Tartarus, Mcthralls, Machine wraith, 'jacks, Mcthralls and pistol wraiths.
The rest of the stuff usually gets left behind, which is kind of sad.
Obviously I've tried most of it against the shooty armies of doom - but its usually just felt like a waste of points.

I'm kind of surprised that I seem to be the only one with these kind of problems. During MkI and the fieldtest I won 80% of my games against Cygnar and Khador. With the official rules though - I'm down to 25%, which is both refreshing and frustrating at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I'll adapt and become the top dog once more in due time. It just makes me depressed that I have to leave so many of my cool toys behind in order to do so.

As for Pressgangers and new scenarios? I've never seen nor heard of a pressganger in my part of the country.

[Mannen]

Here's the list that I'm going to try out against shooty Khador in an hour;

(35pts)
Mortenebra
Harrower
Deathjack
Stalker
Necrotech
Tartarus
10x Bane thralls

We'll see how it goes. My main objective with the list is to "prove" to this new player that shooting isn't "all that" and that he needs to diversify his list in order to stay competetive against an opponent that anticipates loads of shooting.

...or I'll just end up with with my pants around my ankles...

[Jyggdrasil]

If you want to prove that a force overly focused on shooting is 1 dimensional, take GShade and spam shadowmancer at him. Then eat his face

EDIT - new scenarios should be out in the public domain public early in the new year.

[Ghyrrshyld]

I have found that running an arc node against a turtling shooty opponent to trigger overrun has been good.

[69Lazarus]

Or play E-Lich and adavance behind a 9" LOS blocking wall of death.....


Sorry to hear no PG's in your area. I'm betting the actual scenarios will become availabe soon....

[the pirate king]

Well, after MKII got out, the Cygnarians and Khadorians of my my area have definately been more shooty. Menites stayed the same, most Cryxians have gone a little away from shooting the bit they did before. Me? I never used shooting, and never will. It's for cowards.

[GaspysInhaler]

I'm in the same boat as the OP.

Shooting has increased ten-fold in my gaming group. Of the games I've lost, most of it has come down to my caster getting blasted off the table.

pGaspy and eGaspy with their much more difficult to hide medium base now (sans caustic mist). I don't even bother with pGaspy anymore unless I'm playing against an army I know wont have a lot of shooting.

eSkarre has been blown away by retribution. eDenny by the Thunderhead. Hell, I had pDenny killed by a thumper a couple days ago with the "bowling for trolls" crap that is taking over at my LGS. So much for stealth on denny....

Because of this...I've been stuck taking Bane Thralls, Bane Thralls, and more Bane Thralls when I play. I usually only take casters with Stealth (Snoreshade and Denny), or I take eGaspy for caustic mist. If I don't do these things, my army is simply decimated during the advance.

Without scenario play, my opponents literally have 0 incentive to make a concerted move towards me, yet the paradigm of my army dictates that I advance towards them (or sling spells with the overpriced arc-nodes). If I do the later though, my hordes/retribution opponents are ready and usually have Druids, soulless escorts, purification, banishing ward...etc.

Even the Khador player in my group never shows up to battle without 1-2 mortars, widowmakers, and the Behemoth. They whine that I spam stealth....but they forced my hand, ya know?

[blakeh1]

I've found Epic Skarres feat and Perdition great for buying me an extra turn to get stuff like the Deathjack or a Harrower up into their gunlines.

Although as far as more shooting, in my local meta not much has changed in MKII. shooting has always been prevelant in certain factions like Cygnar and Khador. The only thing that really changed in MKII was people picking up the Retribution

[69Lazarus]

Without scenario play, my opponents literally have 0 incentive to make a concerted move towards me, yet the paradigm of my army dictates that I advance towards them

That's why I've been enjoying testing scenarios so much. I love hearing my gunline opponent say "you mean I have to move and put my stuff in that little area over there?"

Yep, right next to death.

[Tionas]

I've found that the 11 man Satyx is pretty rotten against gun lines. it makes them Quake in their boots. with AD and a 16" engangement range, were looking at 32" in on the board. and they can generaly give your army the breathing room it needs HOWEVER, Im in your boat man, I hate HAVING to take a certian set of units in order to get even in the game. the swap to shooting has made me slightly sad.

[McCryx]

Truth.

Others are becoming more "shooty" while stealth is more potent than its MKI version and some of our units e.g. satyxis are very hard to hit, more or less.

So IF they bring gun lines we bring stealth and speed. If they bring heavy hitters we bring quagmire troops, if they bring infantry killers we bring jacks, if they bring jacks we bring infantry. It's the ago old dance, just to a different tune now.

-Cheers-

[the pirate king]

i have always been very 'jack heavy compared to other Cryx players in my area. In a mk1 game of 500 points, I'd usually do either like this:

pSkarre
Seether
Seether
Mechanithralls
Brute Thrall
Satyxis Raiders
Sea Witch

Or this:
Morty
Seether
Nightmare
Bloodgorgers
Mechanithralls
Brute Thrall

All in all that made for two very solid armies, one of the pretty much denying you opponent shooting your caster. Unfortunately, that one does not work anymore, so now I'm at a loss on how to prevent every shot at my caster.

[Bu2]

No more gunline than usual here, sadly. Gunline play is a sign of weak or no skills, and is easily dispatched.

[Typhael]

Truth.

Others are becoming more "shooty" while stealth is more potent than its MKI version and some of our units e.g. satyxis are very hard to hit, more or less.

So IF they bring gun lines we bring stealth and speed. If they bring heavy hitters we bring quagmire troops, if they bring infantry killers we bring jacks, if they bring jacks we bring infantry. It's the ago old dance, just to a different tune now.

-Cheers-

It doesn't seem wrong that, in your example, we're stuck on the reactive end of things? Talk about strategic weakness.

[Jyggdrasil]

It doesn't seem wrong that, in your example, we're stuck on the reactive end of things? Talk about strategic weakness.

I think that may be in the eye of the beholder.

I don't read McCryx's post as us being stuck on the reactive end of things. I read it as Cryx having an answer to whatever the opposition may present. They cannot pose a strategic question we lack the tools to answer.

[McCryx]

I am a HUGE proponent of being the aggressor. If we react to their gun lines and hesitate we end up getting screwed.

What I've found is that we do have to sacrifice our body for the "Win." You cannot be affraid to lose some figs. Our melee troops are so fantastic that even a unit at 1/2 strength would crush any "shooty" unit in a matter of seconds.

Add to that scenario play and it starts to look really bleak for our opponents and their "sit back and shoot" strategy.

I still think we're not top tier anymore when it comes to overall competetiveness, but I do think that we can deal with the shooty. Those guys aren't playing with a "pair" anyway so they deserve to get stomped.

It's those other guys who aren't affraid to get into the mix that cause us probolems.

-Cheers-

[blakeh1]

When facing a gun line I will usually have my Bloodgorgers run straight at them or a unit like Mechanithralls followed by the Necrosurgeon. With Bloodgorgers, tough helps them out somewhat, plus being on medium bases they can block LOS to models like the casters. Even If I only wind up with one or two hitting that gunline, I still can wind up coming out on top. The sacrifice is worth it, because following them up is usually the stuff that is really going to dish out the hurt.

[Typhael]

I think that may be in the eye of the beholder.

I don't read McCryx's post as us being stuck on the reactive end of things. I read it as Cryx having an answer to whatever the opposition may present. They cannot pose a strategic question we lack the tools to answer.

It was probably the original phrasing that threw me off.

[Mannen]

When facing a gun line I will usually have my Bloodgorgers run straight at them or a unit like Mechanithralls followed by the Necrosurgeon. With Bloodgorgers, tough helps them out somewhat, plus being on medium bases they can block LOS to models like the casters. Even If I only wind up with one or two hitting that gunline, I still can wind up coming out on top. The sacrifice is worth it, because following them up is usually the stuff that is really going to dish out the hurt.

If you only wind up with one or two left? The gunlines I play against will kill ten 'gorgers without breaking a sweat.
And don't even get me started on Mcthralls...
My opponents take the word "gunline" very literally.

[McCryx]

What gun line are you playing against?

[Tionas]

I think, as he states earlier, that his opponents are really mean.

"And he turned up with 2 mortars, 10 winterguards, 3 rocketeers, Kovnik Joe, Widowmakers, Eiryss and a couple of 'jacks" in a 35 point army, thats alot of shooting. how, the easy thing about that, is the satyxis easily get in the face of the Winterguard. however, and this is becoming my biggest gripe, without the satyxis, Im not finding any solution to this. and thats a solid 10 points out of the army. guh.

edited to add:
but, then again, point size tends to be a point of contention with me. 30-35 points is SO restricted as to make it almost inflexible. when you hit 50 points is when you start to add choices to your army.

so maybe, its this: maybe its because you play such small games that you have to so totally build your army to them. fortunatly for me, I play about 7 opponents, who run the gammut of ALL of the factions I dont play, in both games. so, when I play menoth, dwarves, ect, I get to run forward willy nilly. its the constants of: Widowmakers, ATGM's, mortars, kossites and the B13 that is causing me the issues.

[Mannen]

The killing kind?

Typically Cygnar. pCaine/Siege usually with a small sprinkling of pStryker.
Add the B13th, ATGM+dude, defender (usually not marshalled), 2-3 Stormcallers, trenchers or longgunners and typically stormguards to mop up any survivors.

The squire, ironclad, junior and stormknights also make regular appereances...


I wouldn't call my opponents mean. I prefer the term "challenging".

[Tionas]

I didnt mean "mean" in the vindicitve sense. I mean more in the competitive sense. I guess its just local slang here. no insult meant to your friends!

Edit for some grammar.

[Creaux]

I still think we're not top tier anymore when it comes to overall competetiveness, but I do think that we can deal with the shooty. Those guys aren't playing with a "pair" anyway so they deserve to get stomped.
-Cheers-

You are SO making me want to face you with either Haley, 2 TCGs, longgunners w UA and 2 cyclones. Grind your rotting nonsense right down with a tall order of impassible death for you. :P

Getting this response from someone who loves combined arms ought to tell ya something. Guns aren't manly, eh? What about bleeding out from getting gutshot? That's pretty macho. Do your whole light brigade impression for us!

[McCryx]

LOL. It won't work. Resistance if futile.

[Creaux]

You have lots of zombies, we have lots of bullets. Trust me, things will work out just fine.

-edit-

And I don't care how fancy your zombies get; our bullets get fancier.

[Hellspawn]

And I don't care how fancy your zombies get; our bullets get fancier.

The fancier your bullets get, the smaller you will find your gaming circle. I've talked to a ton of people who left 40k for WM based on its in your face, aggressive melee flavor. Half of the people who I have personally taught how to play this game started wiyh Khador, so they could bash face! Now WM is going all shooty, where as 40k is getting more melee oriented. They saw what the compitition was doing, and what they were losing thier players to.
I'm not trying to poo in anybody's oatmeal here. I'll whip out Cygnar or mercs and shoot at you all day long. I think a lot of people(myself included) find that playstyle irkesome, and tedious.
I'll take a mosh pit over a skybox anyday.

[Typhael]

The fancier your bullets get, the smaller you will find your gaming circle.

QFT. It may be a beatable list, but it's really annoying to play against. On a friendly basis, "really annoying to play against" is pretty much a death sentence for one's gaming schedule.

This is not a snipe at any forumite, but we had just such a situation at the LGS, and said gun-liner no longer plays there for lack of opponents (either due to his list or inflexibility in changing it).

[Creaux]

You react to a gun-line list negatively. I react to the suggestion that I am ruining people's fun by taking a gun line list negatively. While I've never had an opponent who would run nothing but, I've had fun against gunlines in my time. If your local meta is gunline-intensive, then break out the freaking satyxis and clean up. Use Satyxis to screen bile thralls for extra laughs. Then, give them something that they could expend a lot of shooting resources to kill, but won't be able to ignore, like a deathjack. If that doesn't sound fun to you, you have probably run that a lot and have a meta that won't adapt to something that wins a lot (I can't help you with non-clever or fun opponents) or you aren't running lists prepared to deal with heavy range.

Play scenarios, and vary your OWN lists when things don't work out. Helldivers are another pretty damn good response to range-heavy lists.

-edit-

As far as gunliners not changing their lists go, have you talked to them after defeating them in a game? Miniatures wargamers aren't always the most socially astute group in my experience, and if you can communicate that it isn't you whining that the guy is being too competent a player but too static one, then that might go a ways. Also, scenarios! Indeed!

[ResurrectioN]

Well, after MKII got out, the Cygnarians and Khadorians of my my area have definately been more shooty. Menites stayed the same, most Cryxians have gone a little away from shooting the bit they did before. Me? I never used shooting, and never will. It's for cowards.

Yeah, models with ranged weapons should have lower CMD stat

I am a HUGE proponent of being the aggressor. If we react to their gun lines and hesitate we end up getting screwed.

What I've found is that we do have to sacrifice our body for the "Win." You cannot be affraid to lose some figs. Our melee troops are so fantastic that even a unit at 1/2 strength would crush any "shooty" unit in a matter of seconds.

Add to that scenario play and it starts to look really bleak for our opponents and their "sit back and shoot" strategy.

I still think we're not top tier anymore when it comes to overall competetiveness, but I do think that we can deal with the shooty. Those guys aren't playing with a "pair" anyway so they deserve to get stomped.

It's those other guys who aren't affraid to get into the mix that cause us probolems.

-Cheers-

I agree on all points.
When at gun point run faster towards them.
If you hesitate you give them more time to reload.
Target saturation is the key.