Is defender any good?

[Riker1990]

Every player in my city seems to think that Defender is no good, ever, because, as they say, it is pointless to spend 9 points for a single, pow 15 shot. Also, they say that once in meelee it is worthless. Well, at least on paper when it is engaged (not game term) by a khadoran heavy it is most propably shooting and hitting with -5 to damage. With boost that's 5.5 damage on average. Against a Khadoran Heavy I'd say it's nothing. When it comes to melee it seems to both me and them even worse, because Defender needs focus to do what other 'jacks do without any outside help. Only one initial attack, damaging Khadoran heavies at -4, meaning you'd better boost the damage roll. To do any substantial damage it just HAS to have focus, while even an Ironclad deals more damage AND can potentially knock it down/knock everything down while costing two points less.

Hell, even a Berserker (which costs just 6 points) would, with minimal luck, cripple one of it's systems in a single turn without any focus.

Could anyone give me reasonable counterarguments to what I say here and prove me that it actually can/is/should be good in the game? I quite like the model, but I won't buy it if it is no good, at least not before I have other stuff (finite funds) like, say, Stormclad/Stormnouns/Precursors...

[The Glen]

Can the Ironclad or the Berserker hurt it from 21" away? That's the Defender's threat range. Against a Khador Heavy, not much damage. A khador warcaster, lots of damage. It's the long direct fire range in the game. With Siege's feat there isn't a caster in the game you can't kill in a single hit from across the table. In melee it does a respectable POW, a great MAT, with focus you're going to burn out the other warjack's cortex, so then they can't boost, only swing once and will only hit 50% on average. Jack marshalled to the dude and you're pushing the SPD 4 Khador jack back 1d3" a turn, firing from 20" away, or boosting to hit with a good chance of getting boosted damage as well. It might not hit as hard as some other jacks, but it's going to hit a lot more often.

[etherya]

Defender is one of the best jack overall.

MAT 7 and RAT 6, with a long range POW 15 (16"+5"move) can be lethal, and with some caster (Siege/eHaley/pHaley/Sloan) is better.
Another good option is marshalling it by the Dude, giving him +4" or pushback or critical brutal damage.
When it comes in melee can wreck jack cortex with his hammer POW 16 cortex-byebye.

I have two of them in my collection (no other heavy warjacks x2 for me).

[Darkangeldentist]

In a jack fight the defender does struggle, particularly if you are pitting it against khadorian heavies. A few things do stand in the defenders favour though. Firstly you are getting a couple of shots with that heavy barrel before khador jack can make it to your defender, it's a good enough shot to move and hit enemy jacks easily so if you can afford to, you can maintain the distance. Next that hammer it has burns out the enemies cortex, 3 hits and it's doesn't matter what else you've done the enemy isn't doing anything more than initial attacks back with no boosts. It may take be focus hungry to achieve that but you seriously limit what the enemy is going to do with his jacks once the focus option is taken away.

Against jacks with weaker armour you can cripple systems long before it reaches your lines and then the hammer doesn't look so bad for finishing them off.

Best reason to take the defender though is for caster/solo sniping. That POW 15 gun may not do a huge amount to a jack but it can put a big dent in most casters and even one shot a couple. It's extremely reliable for killing off key enemy models like officers and solos. It's got a great threat range for doing so and excellent RAT for a jack meaning you can kill off key support pieces before the enemy reach you.

[MoonFever]

If you are trying to shoot a khador jack, take Hunters. If you are looking to beat the tar out of Khador Jacks in melee, take the Ironclad/Hammersmith/Centurion/Stormclad. If you are looking for a jack that can kill non warjack/warcaster models from across the table with one shot (Some warcasters too), and fry opposing cortexes, making it an excellent roadblock so that the rest of your army can complete the mission take the Defender.

I bring 2 with Sloan at 35 points, eHaley normally bonds one. Siege likes them. Heck, I've used 2 with Caine so that they could hold up the heavy metal while he assassinated the caster, or they contributed their shots for the kill. Stryker earthquakes through an arcnode and 2 boosted POW 15 shots later...if only they had arcing fire :evilgrin: ...

[whats82]

Have to remember defender is not a dedicated jack killer at range; it's main function is in assassination. Boostable pow15 at massive range, often with Rat8 from aiming (and rat10 with rangers) can seriously threaten many caster, often time taking out half of a caster's boxes. If you're thinking it purely as an anti-heavy tool you're selling it short of what it can do.

[Riker1990]

Well, last time I brought up the Defender topic at my LGS, the response was that my opponent's cavalry can tie it up in meelee so that it would only get one shot. Still, that cavalry would most propably die the next turn due to my other stuff.

Seems that I was looking at Defenders from the wrong side, they're the biggest and meanest guns in the game but are designed to kill something much smaller. Kind of reminds me how in BF Vietnam rocket/RPG launchers were the best anti-infantry weapon.

I'm still not convinced to buy it. Guess I'll have to proxy it for a game or two or buy plastic kit and use magnets. One thing is sure: if it manages to pay it's point cost back, everyone at the shop would be surprised :P

[Brettman008]

Have to remember defender is not a dedicated jack killer at range; it's main function is in assassination. Boostable pow15 at massive range, often with Rat8 from aiming (and rat10 with rangers) can seriously threaten many caster, often time taking out half of a caster's boxes. If you're thinking it purely as an anti-heavy tool you're selling it short of what it can do.

Agreed. If you're expecting a single Defender to blow up Khador jacks at range you're in for disappointment. However, it is an awesome ranged assassination piece/solo killer that has decent melee skills.

Recently I had a game where my opponent left me a shot against a focus starved Magnus. I knew I wouldn't kill him but I took the shot anyways. I ended up rolling really well and did 13 damage to him. For the rest of the game he had to alter his play style to avoid a second shot which I believe ultimately won me the game.

[PG_BioRebel]

A defender marshalled by the Dude, with an extra focus from strangeways can poke a jack with a 4D6 damage roll on a crit.

At the very least you can think of the defender as a bluff unit, Something that can strike fear in your opponents heart but overall isn't going to win the day.

[The Glen]

If nothing else the Defender keeps the bad guys honest. The fact he can pop anybody on the table at any time really makes them rethink their strategies. Great Bears are terrified of this thing.

[PG_Agamemnon]

A defender on a hill is basically impossible to hide from. In our area there 80% of list have one. I have three and play them all at times. eHaley lets the ATGM run hers. She Telekinesis & Accelerates it so it can shoot twice into the enemy deployment zone. I have had it two shot (one activation) a seether. Most times the game is over before enemy models get close enough for the hammer to come into play.

If everyone in your LGS plays heavy ARM Khador then use it against them then bring a couple of hammersmiths/defenders/SS. Do some damage at range, disrupt them with SS, blow out cortex boxes with hammer then go bowling with your hammersmiths. What is really fun is to take pNemo and Vontanic Snare the jack in front then use your HS to knock him back into his own jacks. Now they are all stuck there and you get free reign with a defender to shoot out casters and such.

[whitesox]

Well it can take out Khador heavies in the right circumstances.

Ever seen a Defender bonded to eHayley get 4 focus and temporal acceleration? trust me any jack up to a closed devaster is in a world of hurt against that thing

[admanb]

With Siege's feat there isn't a caster in the game you can't kill in a single hit from across the table.

Terminus...

[PG_Agamemnon]

Terminus...

It's nothing personal; he just likes to argue.

[Dan from Chicago]

Or Karchev

[sleet01]

Defender's a good 'jack on its own, but a great 'jack with certain casters or 'jack marshals. I'm sure there's a detailed rundown around here somewhere, but here's my view:

eHaley: Fantastic, as TA, TK, and her Bond makes him (effectively) a SPD 11 ROF 2 monster with 4 focus. It's like having a POW 15 Charger, only faster. Threat range of 27" means nothing on the opponent's side is safe if s/he goes first. Marshal the Defender to the Dude or a Sword Knight unit and get +4" RNG or pseudo-Bushwack from Pronto, although you lose some Focus and movement. Deadeye + Critical Brutal Damage (on an ATGM-marshaled Defender) makes the chance of getting 4D6 + 15 from a boosted shot pretty good.

pHaley: Almost as good as with eHaley, as Temporal Barrier gives the Defender an effective RAT 8 and Blitz gives the Defender two shots as well. Deadeye as above.

Siege: A Defender shot under Siege's Feat does Dice + 5 to ARM 20, crippling at least one system on average rolls if boosted or killing most 'casters in one shot. I've seen this one-shot Darius with two focus on him.

Sloane: +2 range from Fire Group and an extra shot on her feat makes the Defender almost as good as with pHaley. Refuge gives the Defender a safe threat range of 23", or the ability to aim then move 5".

Darius: Not too much support, but Jackhammer means Darius can have the Defender smash any melee entanglements to pieces before taking a shot, or he can Crane the Defender forward for ~3" move plus aiming, or out of Reach melee range so the Defender can shoot.

Nemos: Can boost melee damage into P+S 18 range, or provide extra movement.

Kraye: I think he can boost the Defender's mobility significantly but I haven't played him at all.


A single Defender on its own won't win you the game, but we have tons of ways to build on the Defender's strengths to make it very effective.

[PG_Endgame]

Nemos: Can boost melee damage into P+S 18 range, or provide extra movement.

pNemo not only boosts the Defender to P+S 18, he also can allocate it 5 focus and essentially make it speed 8. If you really need even more juice on the Defender's melee ability with pNemo you can make use of Hunter's Mark and Harm which are already probably in your list for power tokens.

[sleet01]

Right; like we talked about in the thread about spellcasters that work with pNemo, Lanyssa and Lady Aiyanna & Master Holt are probably already in a pNemo list. Add in Gorman and the Defender can conceivably hit a Khador heavy six times, at Dice + 2, from 13.5" away. But then you're paying his own price in support models and will have a slightly difficult time getting all the effects to work correctly.

(Quick note for the newer players: "Harm" was Lady Aiyanna's spell to make attacks on one model +2 DMG in MK I; in MK II it's called "Kiss of Lyliss".)

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I don't like the Defender much.

For a point more I can have 10 Long Gunner who are far and away more flexible. For 3 less points I can have a Hunter whose anti-armor ability is roughly equal. If I spend another 4 points (for a total of one more than the Defender) I can have a Hunter AND a Charger, granting me anti-caster and anti-armor.

I'm not saying that you can't make it work, or that stacking a half dozen effect on it won't turn it into a beast. But then thats true of every model in this game.

[Waaargh]

A perfect thread. This describes the Cygnar shooting support so very well.

Normally we look at raw numbers when writing about a model or unit and it's qualities. In such a comparison the Defender falls short of the awesomeness that is Longgunners, or the more mobile/hardy/sucking Trencher Infantry who can make CRA's for more damage than the Defender. The infantry is also easier to keep shooting and don't need focus.

Here within this thread the qualities of mobility and compact hitting power comes to show. A sole Defender has a much easier time drawing a bead on its target than 10 infantry models (which can see through one another with the proper UAs, which makes them even more powerful but also even more expensive), it's also easier for it to have range to a given model where as some of the most backfield CRA models have a harder time participating in the shot. Finally it's easier to maneuver a relative small warjack than 10 infantry models.

I fully agree the Defender does a far better job at shooting up key targets than heavy warjacks.

You'll get a warm thank you for enlightening the community with your deeper observations of the warjack. This thread should go straight into the Boot Camp link collection.

[Alex C]

Everyone's pretty much covered the ground, but I just wanted to add thanks for making me LOL with the thread title "Is Defender any good". Heh. Classic...

[Waaargh]

@Dino-Czar how does the Charger compare to the Defender for popping warcasters?

[PG_Agamemnon]

If you ever want to have fun run a unit of gun mages with a hunter and a defender with ecaine. You can put 1 shot into deployment zone with the hunter then bounce a magic bullet into a support solo. If you go second then basically everything is open to the defender snipe shot. This can give you two magic bullets way out into the playing field.

[Sacredsouless]

Eh, i think, on paper at least, the hunter is better for Gun Mage marshalling (has a higher rat, only 2" shorter range, higher def). BUT the defender is beatiful in that i wouldn't be to afraid to send one off into melee if its needed or he was engaged. Its still got arm 18 and the hammer is PS 16 so it could easily finish off an enemy jack that your say, ironclad/stormclad/insert melee beastick didn't quite kill. and besides, a jack without a functioning cortex is an expensive piece of junk the majority of the time. so it is amazing, i would only argue agains that view with marshalling.

[sleet01]

But we have ways of making the Defender effective in melee even when marshaled. TA + marshal bonus means 3 swings. Add in a focus from Strangewayes and you get 4 swings. MAT 7 means the chance of missing DEF 10~12 is pretty low, too. Or Blitz + TB with pHaley for extra hitting goodness. The marshaled Defender is not as good as a Bonded or pNemo-controlled Defender, but not to be ignored!

[Aetou]

@Dino-Czar how does the Charger compare to the Defender for popping warcasters?

It depends on how much armour they're camping (or if you can nail them with eEiryss first.) Against ARM15 the Charger averages 15dmg, the Defender 10.5, against ARM17 the Defender is doing 8.5 and the Charger 11... against ARM20 it's pretty even, above that the Defender wins out. With Siege, the Defender gains an extra edge but with everyone else (and with KoL especially) the Charger wins out and is also more accurate. I like the bonded Defender with eHaley but most of the time I find myself running Rowdy plus a Charger...

[Sardonic Artery]

Ha, this thread has actually made me reconsider taking defenders (i.e. taking them out), because I don't ever think I've shot enough solos or UAs to make back that 9 points.

[PG_Agamemnon]

My view point on the Defender Vs Hunter is that Hunters are not a threat to 90% of the caster/locks out there. A Defender can nail them all to the wall. Nothing better than scaring off a caster because they are afraid to come within 20" of your Defender.

[isawatsuke]

ive actually been shying away from the defender recently. When I first started cygnar I used to love them a lot but lately they dont seem to do much damage. Normally I would either damage a jack or kill a solo or two for the whole game. For my four main casters (ehaley, ecaine, siege, estryker) Really the 3 can kill casters by themselves at the range that the defender does so I dont use him. Ehaley can use him but its really a toss up between him and a stormclad for assasinations. The defender is probably an ok piece, but IMO just average.

OT: This is actually part of the reason im more annoyed than most at triumph since im already not liking the defender.

[Alex C]

I don't ever think I've shot enough solos or UAs to make back that 9 points.

That mindset could be the problem.

"Making back it's points" is a common expectation for units in Wargaming, but it is a notion that I feel has little place in Warmachine or Hordes. The game usually relies on assassination or objective holding to win, so "making back it's points" really doesn't matter, as long as it helps you achieve the win condition.

I've only played a few games with a Defender and it's never "made it's points back". It has almost always directly contributed to a victory though.

[Defenstrator]

When the last poll was done for best Cygnar jack the Defender was the winner. It's got a great ranaged weapon and can do the business in melee. Certainly my opponents won't send in a heavy against it without support, otherwise it will blow off 10-12 points as the heavy comes in, then blows out the heavies cortex while inflicting a few more points, and then its just boosted POW 16s untill the heavy is dead. Unless the Defender wants to suddenly assassinate some important solo or your warcaster instead.

Plus it's one of the few heavies that can really be marshalled, and so is an easy addition to your list without suffering from focus load.

[Riker1990]

but I just wanted to add thanks for making me LOL with the thread title "Is Defender any good". Heh. Classic...

From the very first day when I started playing Warmachine (somewhere around october 2008, but I've had about 18 month break) I haven't heard a single good word about Defenders. From what I've been told, at my LGS, Defender was once on the table in the past 4 years (a special event, MK II rules, MK I Prime models only). Everyone kept saying that it's just bad.

Thanks a lot for those responses guys, it now seems to me that it's quite focus hungry (TA costs 3) and is more of a trick unit that can end the game with one/two shot/s right away as well as just eat all 'caster's focus and propably do some harm.

@Dino-Czar how does the Charger compare to the Defender for popping warcasters?

From other posts in this thread it seems that Def. can be used to great effect to put big holes in enemy 'casters. That's Charger's speciality as well. A Charger with 3 focus/two Chargers with a focus each can, with minimal luck, kill 'casters below 18 arm that are in range. They're also excellent for solo hunting: with powerfuul shot and basic pow of 12 can one-shot kill most solos/UAs. Defender apparently can do the same, but from further away.

Now I'm quite sure: I've definitely got to try him out.

[The Anders]

Is you're local meta Jack heavy? If so the defender is not so good. But I am thinking about getting a second defender painted up. I like to play Nemo, and eStryker both of wich can up its melee damage. And eCaine, my new love, can magic bullet them, while they aim or I can run a ranger up, to hit the soft guys behinde the line.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

@Dino-Czar how does the Charger compare to the Defender for popping warcasters?

In every way I care about the Charger is better. One focus spent returns a shot that will reliably hit the 14+ def of a caster/lock AND penetrate the 15-18 armor that most hang out at. The same is true of the Defender, but with two Chargers totaling only 8 points I can bring 2-4 shots to bear where the Defender could only target with one. Those 2-4 shots will win the game, the Defender's single attack will not.

For me the Defender is flexible in all the wrong ways. The survivability and mid-power attacks it offers are both completely eclipsed by specialists with lesser point costs.

[mrhuettel]

no matter against who i play, when i put my two defenders on the table before anything else, i always get curses, facepalms and irritated mumblings across the battlefield. usually, the next step is to place the dude behind one and either one of the haleys, siege or sloan behind the other. add in the squire and reinholt for the latter two and most opponents start to re-build their lists as they will have to stay away 20" to 24" from those two beauties - what's not to love about that?

as some have pointed out above: the defender is a threat to anything on the table. while the hunter's pow 6 against armour/2 (large and medium) is nice mostly against light jacks and medium sized infantry but very often lackluster and the jack is far too easy to destroy, the defender is a little more relaxed in bringing the pain to your enemy.

[Halfhoot]

I run two with Siege. I have a 50 point Siege list with 2 Defenders and 2 Hunters. With Reinholdt that's 2 power 14s from siege, 2 15s from the Defenders, and follow up on heavies with the hunters.... and the Defenders *will* be able to get range on whatever you just caught in feat whereas melee options might not.

I will often run one Defender and one Hunter on the ATGM with Strangewayes behind to give an extra focus to the Defender to hit. I also run him behind my ATGM. He has the range to do so and then that heavy isn't going to get to him first... then with a focus from Arlan he can charge in for some extra damage on that thing that just engaged your ATGM.

I never find use for the charger personally. My caster's never have the focus to fully feed it so it's one fully boosted power 12. That's good no doubt, but with 4 points left in my list it's usually competing with something like the B13... and I'd much rather have them than a Charger. Also the 18" range is nice, but the marshaled Defender has a 24" range. Add to that the fact that if a Defender is on a hill you can't even hide behind a large base model from it (unless you're on a hill too) while you can hide from a Charger. Another thing is that all but one Caster I play don't like to give out focus. Thus I tend to marshal my jacks. The charger seems wasted being marshaled... and it doesn't seem important enough to tie Arlan to. I do need to try it out more often though.

I do admit that I often opt for 2 Hunters over a Defender... especially with Ecaine so I can magic bullet twice into deployment top of turn 1 But if you come down to a camping small base caster... the Hunters are useless while the Defender at least can hope to do some damage. Defender can generally always be at least somewhat useful no matter the situation.

Besides... it's a freaking range 21 or 25 gun. It makes people nervous even if they shouldn't be nervous of it. They have to make every move realizing that thing is going to hit them next turn. (Unless they're Barnabas)

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I never find use for the charger personally. My caster's never have the focus to fully feed it so it's one fully boosted power 12. That's good no doubt, but with 4 points left in my list it's usually competing with something like the B13... and I'd much rather have them than a Charger. Also the 18" range is nice, but the marshaled Defender has a 24" range. Add to that the fact that if a Defender is on a hill you can't even hide behind a large base model from it (unless you're on a hill too) while you can hide from a Charger. Another thing is that all but one Caster I play don't like to give out focus. Thus I tend to marshal my jacks. The charger seems wasted being marshaled... and it doesn't seem important enough to tie Arlan to. I do need to try it out more often though.

You're a Caine player, right? I'm sure you've noticed that 1 focus on a Charger brings a better return than 1 focus spent on either Caine buying attacks. Unless it's eCaine's feat turn I don't see how you can't find a focus point to spare.

As for the Defender's reach... meh? 95% of games I play end in skrum somewhere around the mid line so having a huge threat on a mid-power attack just doesn't pay off after turn 2 or so. The Charger and Hunter have more than enough threat and hitting power to do my work without costing points for excess inches on their guns.

[Halfhoot]

*shrug* Different metas I guess. And I don't spend focus shooting with my Caine's. I spend it on spells. Maybe I play them differently than everyone else in the world, but my pCaine is going to be Deadeyeing, Snipe or upkeep of, blur or upkeep of, Thunderbolting, and probably teleporting every turn. Way too much cool stuff to do to spend focus on shooting. eCaine is going to be throwing around Magic bullet multiple times and upkeeping blur or various... I also am not out to kill my opponent's army... I'm out to tie them up, make them worry... foil their plans... disrupt, knock down, various.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

If thats the case, why is the Defender preferable to running another unit of... well, anything? I guess aiming means you don't have to boost to hit most targets so you're saving focus over the Charger, but if you're looking for plan foiling utility I can think of a half dozen options that would likely cause more trouble than a POW 15 hit or a POW 16 hammer.

I'm not questioning your results, I just don't understand how you got them.

[isawatsuke]

In every way I care about the Charger is better. One focus spent returns a shot that will reliably hit the 14+ def of a caster/lock AND penetrate the 15-18 armor that most hang out at. The same is true of the Defender, but with two Chargers totaling only 8 points I can bring 2-4 shots to bear where the Defender could only target with one. Those 2-4 shots will win the game, the Defender's single attack will not.

For me the Defender is flexible in all the wrong ways. The survivability and mid-power attacks it offers are both completely eclipsed by specialists with lesser point costs.

Agree with this