More jacks, more jacks! XD

[Volaguera]

So I've been wanting to run more and more jacks, but not going super-jack-heavy and having a combined arms force. I've been getting tips over in my Privateer Press Discussions thread "I got into this game for the Warmachines..." It's a great thread, so much useful advice from a lot of people from different factions. Anyway, I've come up with the following 2 lists. The first 1 is the balanced, serious one; the 2nd one is more of a spammy one that I don't think is quite so balanced at all (but it looks funny :P), and I will most likely never run it hahaha. Weird thing is they aren't led by Vyros (our closest thing to a jack caster), but Rahn: he seemed like the most flexible pick, not sure if the others can contribute as much as he can.

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(6) - Chimera
(8) - Manticore
(6) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(1) Soulless Escort
(6) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(1) Soulless Escort
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(4) - Griffon
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
= 35 points

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(6) Chimera
(8) Manticore
(10) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(1)Arcanist
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(4) Griffon
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(4) Griffon
= 35 points

[absent]

I'd try and make the manticores a pheonix, the manticore is a little better in melee and ranged, but doesn't have the arcnode nor the combust, having a 2nd arcnode and a combust is pretty sweet.

[hausdorff space]

Personally, I don't feel 2 lights and a heavy is any more "Jack Heavy" than 2 Heavies; but each to their own.
In your first list you should look at putting the Griffon on the Sentinels. Pronto would have it running aroudn like crazy.


Really, people talk about jack casters, but the only thing that tends to keep us 'jack light' is the price (and lack of diversity) of our heavies.
I've run several 35pt lists with 3 heavies and, while perhaps a little counter-intuitive (and costly), when it came down to it they seemed very capable.

[Volaguera]

I'd try and make the manticores a pheonix, the manticore is a little better in melee and ranged, but doesn't have the arcnode nor the combust, having a 2nd arcnode and a combust is pretty sweet.

Easily enough done. In the first list, I'd pro'ly just drop the 2 soul-less to get the extra 2 points, although they are nice for their anti-magic. 2nd arcnode would be amazing though. In the 2nd list...well, that's not a list I'm likely to make, it was just something I thought looked funny.

[Volaguera]

Personally, I don't feel 2 lights and a heavy is any more "Jack Heavy" than 2 Heavies; but each to their own.

Except I usually run just 1 heavy at 35 points with the other casters I have (Kae, Ravyn); Rahn is the only one that gets a 2nd jack, and that's the chimera. So adding in the chimera (although Rahn has it by default, the others don't and I've played them more) and a griffon is a bit more jack than I am used to.

In your first list you should look at putting the Griffon on the Sentinels. Pronto would have it running aroudn like crazy.

I thought about that, and it would by crazy for sure :P. It would free up 2 points (the now mostly-un-needed scyir) for a 2nd mage hunter assassin. 'Coordinatated strike' and 'drive: reroll' aren't too bad though, right?

Really, people talk about jack casters, but the only thing that tends to keep us 'jack light' is the price (and lack of diversity) of our heavies.
I've run several 35pt lists with 3 heavies and, while perhaps a little counter-intuitive (and costly), when it came down to it they seemed very capable.

Care to share? 3 heavies at 35 sounds like the bomb.

I respect the wisdom of the more experienced.

[hausdorff space]

Except I usually run just 1 heavy at 35 points with the other casters I have (Kae, Ravyn); Rahn is the only one that gets a 2nd jack, and that's the chimera. So adding in the chimera (although Rahn has it by default, the others don't and I've played them more) and a griffon is a bit more jack than I am used to.

Touche'

I thought about that, and it would by crazy for sure :P. It would free up 2 points (the now mostly-un-needed scyir) for a 2nd mage hunter assassin. 'Coordinatated strike' and 'drive: reroll' aren't too bad though, right?

Not bad at all; but within the list I'm not sure I would consider the jack anything more than a speedy interceptor, or flank buddy (for the Scyir and Invictors), and the Sentinels just make the interceptor that much faster. I would actually toy with the idea of using the 2pts for an Arcanist and to upgrade the Griffon to a Gorgon. The jack gets a lot of hate, but when staring down unchargeable Sentinels, and Rahns shenanigans, not being able to move never has a positive outcome.

Care to share? 3 heavies at 35 sounds like the bomb.

Details on one can be found HERE (list One - in the second half of the article); and the other is briefly covered HERE (Garryth list, the best comments are at the end of the article)

I respect the wisdom of the more experienced.

I wouldn't

[Volaguera]

...But within the list I'm not sure I would consider the jack anything more than a speedy interceptor, or flank buddy (for the Scyir and Invictors), and the Sentinels just make the interceptor that much faster. I would actually toy with the idea of using the 2pts for an Arcanist and to upgrade the Griffon to a Gorgon. The jack gets a lot of hate, but when staring down unchargeable Sentinels, and Rahns shenanigans, not being able to move never has a positive outcome.

Oh snap there's the synergy! Bomb-dot-com!

Details on one can be found HERE (list One - in the second half of the article); and the other is briefly covered HERE (Garryth list, the best comments are at the end of the article)

Thanks muchly for the reading!

I wouldn't [appreciate the wisdom of the more experienced]

Heh-heh-heh, digging the humor.

[Volaguera]

So either:

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(6) - Chimera
(8) - Manticore
(6) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(1) Soulless Escort
(6) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(5) - Gorgon/Griffon
(1) Soulless Escort
(1) Arcanist
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir/Mage Hunter Assassin
= 35 points

Or:

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(6) - Chimera
(8) - Manticore
(6) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(6) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(5) - Gorgon/Griffon
(1) Arcanist
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
= 35 points

So differences are list 1 has 2 soul-less and scyir/assassin, list 2 has scyir and assassin. Kind of digging the first list, to be honest.

And for some real heavy-hitting:

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(6) - Chimera
(8) - Manticore
(6) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(6) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(8) - Manticore
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir/Assassin
= 35 points

(-6) Dawnlord Vyros
(8) - Manticore
(10) - Phoenix
(6) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(6) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(4) Griffon
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir/Assassin
= 35 points

[Volaguera]

Consolidated into above post.

[Volaguera]

And reintroducing MHSF + UA instead of invictors + UA, and taking a griffon instead of a gorgon, and dropping an arcanist, all in favor of maxing the sentinels:

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(6) Chimera
(8) Manticore
(9) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(4) - Griffon
(5) Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Mage Hunter Commander
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin

And Vyros (despite lack of a hydra (for a 'bird's eye' big cannon) and/or phoenix (for all that it is) he might work better than Rahn in this case, since there are no arc-nodes).

(-6) Dawnlord Vyros
(8) - Manticore
(8) - Manticore
(9) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(4) - Griffon
(5) Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Mage Hunter Commander
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir/Assassin
= 35 points

These are for a little more anti-jack punch vs WM, whereas the previous lists were designed to take Hordes on as well (IMO, the invictors + UA come out ahead of MHSF due to better POW guns, CRA and 'flank: warjack', which makes them better vs beasts).

[Volaguera]

Details on one can be found HERE (list One - in the second half of the article); and the other is briefly covered HERE (Garryth list, the best comments are at the end of the article)
I wouldn't

Thank you muchly! This is proving to be very good reading material!

Your explanations of your 'Charge of the Battle Mages' and Rallypoint armies are quite nice. Once I get more experienced in playing jacks I will try one of them out, or at least something very similar.

[Volaguera]

An update of my quest to play with more jacks. Played 3 games with this list today. I know it really isn't jack-heavy at all (2 heavies, 2 lights only), but it has all the jacks I own so far since starting this Feb.

(-6) Rahn
(6) - Chimera
(8) - Manticore
(10) - Phoenix
(6) Dawnguard Invictors - min
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer n Standard
(9) Dawnguard Sentinels - max
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer n Standard
(4) - Griffon (jack marshalled)
(1) Soul-less Escort
(1) Arcanist
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
= 50 points

1st game was against my friend who is one of the few jack players; we played so I would learn more about how jacks fight. Went toe-to-toe with Karchev, Behemoth, 2 destroyers and a spriggan, supported by mechanics and winter guard artillery. Don't know if it was an optimized list, I think the winter guard artillery units were taken just 'cause the guy doesn't usually play them. All I can say is the equivalent of 5 heavies running into my lines trashed my infantry quite a bit, but the sentinels gave as good as they got and so did my manticore and phoenix. In the end I managed to scrape through with a win as I had killed all the mechanics, crippled a destroyer, wrecked another destroyer and a spriggan, and Karchev trampling around had been whittled down by free-strikes enough that an assassin, a chimera and a manticore could finish him off just before he could get to Rahn. So Win.

2nd game was against Trolls (2nd time ever playing them). eDoomy with an axer, earthborn, mulg; max krielstone unit, max champ unit w champ solo; stonetide, fell caller, stone scribe solo; some other things maybe. I was too aggressive and put myself into troll threat range too quickly. Got roflstomped really badly. Have to figure out how to beat the troll brick or stop the troll train from crashing me, it sure is nasty, I have the hardest time against them, Circle and Cryx. Loss.

3rd game was against Cygnar. eStryker, stormclad, cyclone, lancer; max stormblades w 2 gunners n UA, max stormguard, gun mages w dude; squire, strangewayes; some other things maybe. Gave as good as I got, to be honest, took a heavy toll on the infantry. All I can say is the stormclad is nasty and the cyclone's dual covering fire is annoying as heck to my sentinels, shut 'em down well. Wish manticores had dual covering fire, even if they have to pay focus for it or are 1-2 more points. Why don't manticores have dual covering fire? :P Match was a draw because the store needed to close before we could finish, but I think I would've lost if the game had went longer. Draw.

[Volaguera]

All in all, the jacks performed better than I expected them too, whether they were my jacks or the opponents' (in games 1 and 3). Like people have said, jacks can apply a lot of force to a small area of the battlefield (although I generally feel that beasts still do it better because they don't rely on the caster's fury). Still, I can see how they are really great at smashing through things. I have to learn to protect them better, though.

The infantry generally died in droves. The invictors were sort of meh in the first 2 games, but they managed to shoot down their number in stormblades in the last. The sentinels were impressive in the first game, and got chopped up or stalled in the other 2. I wonder how my infantry have survived for so many games, they took really heavy casualties in these games, more than the ones I've played before. Granted, I am running far less infantry than I am used to, so that's pro'ly got something to do with it.

I think I need another heavy at 50, but the only thing I can think of taking out are the 2 lights. Though the sweet spot for me would be 3 heavies and 1 light at 50, I think. Also, a full unit of invictors would be nice.

[Volaguera]

Something like this maybe:

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(9) Hydra
(8) Manticore
(10) Phoenix
(10) Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard
(6) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(4) Griffon
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir/Mage Hunter Assassin
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin

The dawnguard units are interchangeable (i.e. max invictors + UA and min sentinels + UA, or min invictors + UA and max sentinels + UA), and I still have to figure out if the Scyir is worth it.

Rahn is here to lend what he can to the army, but I think I'm just using him for his 8 focus so I can run the heavies, with the odd spell-slinging if opportunity shows. In retrospect Vyros might actually be a better caster, then.

[hausdorff space]

I don't know what you have available, but have you considered dropping a unit of Dawnguard?
I prescribe to an "effective element per 10pts" way of thinking - generally each heavy jack, and each solid or supported unit being one element. (and you always leave one 10pts spare for "support")

In this case the three heavies and Sentinels+UA+Griffon, easily make the 4 core, effective elements, and you can then focus on support to gel them together.
- you have your MHAs to support the melee offensive, and Arcanists to support the jacks; but what about some Stormfall, Magisters, Snipers, Eiryss/Narn or other solos?

[kibbles]

I don't know what you have available, but have you considered dropping a unit of Dawnguard?
I prescribe to an "effective element per 10pts" way of thinking - generally each heavy jack, and each solid or supported unit being one element. (and you always leave one 10pts spare for "support")

In this case the three heavies and Sentinels+UA+Griffon, easily make the 4 core, effective elements, and you can then focus on support to gel them together.
- you have your MHAs to support the melee offensive, and Arcanists to support the jacks; but what about some Stormfall, Magisters, Snipers, Eiryss/Narn or other solos?

And I spot a real problem - you're running a min unit of Sents which really hurts because you want more of them so vengeance kicks in. I'd drop the Invictors, go to max Sents and then do what Thecsharian says - have a support unit (or two) in there. You'd have 9 points to spare dropping the invictors, so you could add a min MHSF with commander and a Magister. Or Eiryss, Skeryth and throw a soulless onto the Sentinals to shorten that magaic attack range. All sorts of options.

[Volaguera]

And this is why I ask for advice! Sometimes one just comes up against a road-block that they can't surmount without help, and someone offering out-of-the-box thinking is just what one needs.

So an effective element then is generally 10 points? That sounds like a really good idea.

I somehow knew someone was going to mention chopping down to 1 unit or 1-and-a-half units of infantry. I was sort of dreading that, it goes against my ingrained infantry-machine mentality, which ironically is something I am trying to get rid of, but it's like an addiction! :P

[Volaguera]

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(9) Hydra
(8) Manticore
(10) Phoenix
(9) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts)
(4) Griffon
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(1) Arcanist
(1) Arcanist
(2) Dawnguard Scyir
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
(3) Eiryss
(3) Narn

[Volaguera]

I don't know what you have available, but have you considered dropping a unit of Dawnguard?
I prescribe to an "effective element per 10pts" way of thinking - generally each heavy jack, and each solid or supported unit being one element. (and you always leave one 10pts spare for "support")

I really like this little tid-bit of advice. Now, what really classifies as support? A min unit + UA, solos, or a mix of both?

As for what I have:

(-7p) Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper
(-9) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(-6p) Ravyn, Eternal Light

(6p) Chimera / Gorgon
(4p) Griffon
(8p) Manticore
(10p) Phoenix
(10p) Dawnguard Invictors - 10
(2p) - Invictors Officer n standard
(9p) Dawnguard Sentinels - 10
(2p) - Sentinels Officer n standard
(7p) Houseguard Halberdiers - 10
(2p) - Officer n standard
(8p) Mage Hunter Strike Force - 10
(2p) - Commander
(5p) Stormfall Archers - 4
(1p) Arcanist
(2p) Dawnguard Scyir
(2p) Mage Hunter Assassin
(2p) Mage Hunter Assassin
= 82 points

[hausdorff space]

I really like this little tid-bit of advice. Now, what really classifies as support? A min unit + UA, solos, or a mix of both?

Anything that assists the core elements of the army in some way - things that add strength to core elements (Arcanists, Magisters, A&H); put additional threat vectors on the field (Assassins, Magisters); things that clear out the chafe or provide alternative threats (Stormfall, min units); things that run interference (min Halberdiers, Nayl); things that weaken the enemies as they advance (Ghost Snipers)

Core elements don't need to be 10pts, but they tend to sit around that point range (big jack, full unit with UA, etc).

[Volaguera]

Anything that assists the core elements of the army in some way - things that add strength to core elements (Arcanists, Magisters, A&H); put additional threat vectors on the field (Assassins, Magisters); things that clear out the chafe or provide alternative threats (Stormfall, min units); things that run interference (min Halberdiers, Nayl); things that weaken the enemies as they advance (Ghost Snipers)

Core elements don't need to be 10pts, but they tend to sit around that point range (big jack, full unit with UA, etc).

So at 35 (which is really around 40 points for most casters), 30 points in (3) core elements and 10 points in support? And at 50, 40 points in (4) core elements and 10 points in support and 5 points to taste? 25 is the hardest 'cause you can't fit much in there, but 2 core elements and 1 support? This is like a rough guideline depending on the caster, right?

[Volaguera]

Think I've finally figured out 2 lists (35 and 50 points) that adequately satisfy me :P

(-6) Adeptis Rahn Shyeel
(8) Manticore
(10) Phoenix
(9) Dawnguard Sentinels (Leader and 9 Grunts)
(2) Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard
(5) Mage Hunter Strikeforce (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(2) Mage Hunter Commander
(1) Arcanist
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
(2) Mage Hunter Assassin
= 35
(9/8) Hydra/Manticore
(5) House Shyeel Battle Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts)
(1/2) Arcanist/House Shyeel Magister
= 50

[hausdorff space]

25 is the hardest 'cause you can't fit much in there, but 2 core elements and 1 support? This is like a rough guideline depending on the caster, right?

That's the idea.

I don't think 25pts is that hard though, it's not so much 2 core elements but 2 core ideas (say "Ravyn with a heavy" and "a full ranged unit"; or a "Rahn" "heavy jack" assault), support isn't limited in number, only point size. So at this level it becomes a list with a simple concept behind it, at higher level the singular purpose/direction of the list can become much more muddied. It's just an idea, but I think this background scheme is what leads to the strong paper-scissors-rock feeling at 35pts; where you're generally not playing theme, but an imbalance in core elements and support can widely vary the strength of a list (at higher points you can generally counter inbalances).

[Volaguera]

It's just an idea, but I think this background scheme is what leads to the strong paper-scissors-rock feeling at 35pts; where you're generally not playing theme, but an imbalance in core elements and support can widely vary the strength of a list (at higher points you can generally counter inbalances).

What do you mean? Do you mean that building a list using the '10-point-elements' scheme is inherently flawed because it causes an imbalance; or that building a list without using such a scheme is inherently flawed because it causes an imbalance?

Should I assume the 2nd is what you meant? Because building in 10 point elements seems like it would create balance, not imbalance, or at least make sure the army has everything it needs.

[hausdorff space]

What do you mean?

More along the lines of the second option.


Most elements are ~10pts strong (regardless of whether you follow the scheme), at 35pts you get 3 elements; this leads to easily imbalanced ratios:

• an opponent with all infantry aside from either one jack element or jack 'support' leads to a very infantry heavy list that is hard to counter with your own 3 elements
• an opponent all jacks aside from support leads to a very jack heavy list that can be hard to counter with your own 3 elements

Similar inbalances occur with a focus on stealth, multiwound models, ranged models, infantry models, etc.

Below 35pts this isn't an issue as all lists are (more or less) themed and you expect imbalance; 35pts is considered a standard by many and the situation can be hidden in a balanced meta; at 50pts you have enough points to have elements that can directly counter these issues of balance.

It's all a part of the game - our tier lists directly exploit this imbalance.

[Volaguera]

More along the lines of the second option.


Most elements are ~10pts strong (regardless of whether you follow the scheme), at 35pts you get 3 elements; this leads to easily imbalanced ratios:

• an opponent with all infantry aside from either one jack element or jack 'support' leads to a very infantry heavy list that is hard to counter with your own 3 elements
• an opponent all jacks aside from support leads to a very jack heavy list that can be hard to counter with your own 3 elements

Similar inbalances occur with a focus on stealth, multiwound models, ranged models, infantry models, etc.

Below 35pts this isn't an issue as all lists are (more or less) themed and you expect imbalance; 35pts is considered a standard by many and the situation can be hidden in a balanced meta; at 50pts you have enough points to have elements that can directly counter these issues of balance.

It's all a part of the game - our tier lists directly exploit this imbalance.

Aaah that makes sense. Yes, I find that 35 points is hard to balance elements out, where-as 50 is much easier to. At 35 (on average more like 40 because of jack points) it's like 2 heavy jacks and 2 full units, or 2 heavies and 1.5 'full' units and some support, or 1 heavy and 1 light and 2 full units and some support, etc. Where-as 50 is like 2 heavies and 2 full units and quite a bit of support, or similar (like skimming points from units and support to get another jack). This is assuming a Retribution- or Cygnar-like army from my meta, of course, where combined arms is the way to go, but jacks and units are a bit expensive to be fielding a lot of, so a very rough 2-2-1 (jacks-units-combined support) sort of ratio usually falls into play.