Magical weapons

[basher]

Hello! my friends and i wants to know if we can shot on jacks with magical weapons if the choir has used its ability to prevent non magical ranged attacks from targeting the jack.

choirs ability passege: the warjack cannot be targeted b non magical ranged attacks. the passege last for one round.

Magical weapons: A magical weapon can damage models with the incorperal ability. attacks made with magical weapons are not magical attacks. magical ranged weapons make ranged attacks. magical melee weapons make melee attacks.

thx

[alienmaster]

choirs ability passege: the warjack cannot be targeted b non magical ranged attacks. the passege last for one round.

Magical weapons: A magical weapon can damage models with the incorperal ability. attacks made with magical weapons are not magical attacks. magical ranged weapons make ranged attacks. magical melee weapons make melee attacks.

thx

rules as written would suggest that ranged weapon with the magical weapon ability are unable to target warjacks effected by the choirs ability.
hope this helps.
you can still target the jack with ranged spells though

[Hjelmen0]

Ranged weapons with the magical weapon advantage can target models under safe passage, since these weapons now make magical ranged attacks. As opposed to non-magical ranged attacks, made by ranged weapons without the magical weapon advantage.

The distinction is in the qualifier "non-magical" as a type of weapon, not a type of attack. Ranged weapons with the magical weapon advantage do not make magic attacks, they make magical ranged attacks.

What the quoted rule is telling you is that magical ranged weapons do not make magical attacks like spells. This being important for example for Spell Ward and the like.

The same goes for melee weapons with the magical weapon advantage.

I really really hope that they've cleaned up this wording in the printed version, because it confused the hell out of so many people.

[Dewbakuk]

Hjelmen0 is right. The rule on the Menoth cards is fairly clear, it's the quote in the rulebook that screws everything up for people. As a Menoth player I read that rule many times before I actually understood what it was trying to say.

[davorok]

Yeah rules as written, there really is no question about it, they cant shoot them. But if this was intended i have no idea....

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Hjelmen0 has the right of it.

The wording in question is not in the magical weapon section, it's in the Passage ability section.

Passage: The warjack cannot be targeted by non-magical ranged attacks. Passage lasts for one round.

Since passage specifies "non-magical" ranged attacks, if a ranged attack is magical (ie has the magic weapon ability), it is not affected by passage.

Ranged spells are not magical ranged attacks, they are ranged magic attacks.

[davorok]

Have there been an official ruling on this somewhere?

[Hjelmen0]

If you insist on a ruling, go trawl through the old rules forum for a bit. It'll be somewhere on there.

EDIT: but as blue loki said once on this topic:

Much confusion would be lost if more people would read the relevant rule instead of assuming that magic=magical simply because they sound similar.

[draxius]

There are three types of attacks in the game:
Melee Attacks
Ranged Attacks
Magic Attacks

Additionally, there is the subtype of "Magical Weapon" attacks. As per the MkII rules:

A magical weapon can damage and affect models with the Incorporeal ability. Attacks made with magical weapons are not magic attacks. Magical ranged weapons
make ranged attacks. Magical melee weapons make melee attacks.

Note the emphasis on the words "magic attacks". They are "magical", in that they can damage things immune to non-magical (Vilmon, for one...). They are not "magic", in that they can't be affected by things that prevent "Magic Attacks". Note that spells and attacks generated by the "Magic Ability" rule are Magic Attacks, and are all treated as spells.

This effectively gives you five categories of attacks for purposes of rules like this:
Non-Magical Melee Attacks
Magical Melee Attacks
Non-Magical Ranged Attacks
Magical Ranged Attacks
Magic Attacks

"Passage" prevents the "Non-Magical Ranged Attacks" category only.
Similarly, Incorporeal and Impervious Wall prevent the "Non-Magical Ranged Attacks" and "Non-Magical Melee Attacks" categories only.

Effects that modify/prevent Ranged or Melee Attacks, but do not specifiy Magical or Non-Magical, affect both categories. Effects that modify/prevent Spells affect both warcaster/warlock spells as well as the Magical Ability special rule, as Magical Ability is considered a spell effect (pg. 83 of the rules PDF - not going to quote as it's a bit off-topic).

[jandrese]

I think it's less complicated to just say that some Melee and Ranged weapons do magical type damage. They're still Melee or Ranged weapons, not spells.

Some abilities prevent Melee or Ranged attacks, like the Monolith Bearer's Greater Destiny. It does not matter what your damage type is, you can't attack a model that has Greater Destiny using any kind of Melee or Ranged attack.

However, other abilities have a disclaimer in their ability stating that only "non-magical" attacks are affected. In this case, if the Melee or Ranged attack does magical type damage, then they can bypass the ability. An example is the Choir's Safe Passage.

Comparing the wording between Greater Destiny and Safe Passage usually clears this issue up in most people's minds.

[basher]

I want to thank you all for your help in figure out this problem. When i was reading to ruling i thougt that it was possible to shot at his jacks but the player that used the choir said that i could not shot because they were ranged attack so we had a rough time dealing with this list but now i see a glimpse of faith.

[ketsugami]

I'm glad I saw this, since I have some Menoth friends who insist on the other way, and now I know how to parse it out for them.

[alienmaster]

lm backflipping here now, but after reading this im going to agree with Hjelmen0's ruling on this

[Justicator]

I really hope this was re-worded in the new book (haven't looked).

They really needed to say simply Magical Weapons make Magical Attacks. Otherwise, magical ranged attack and magical melee attack are not defined anywhere in the book except by extension.

On the contrary - the section talking about magical weapons would seem to indicate (to the rules lawyer) that they don't actually make magical attacks.

Magical ranged weapons
make ranged attacks. Magical melee weapons make melee attacks.

Note Magical is not part of the attack descriptor. While I do agree that it is the intention for Magical weapons to bypass these types of abilities - this definitely needs to be fixed/errata'd

[tsochung]

the wording is fine
if a range weapon with magic weapon tag didn't make magical ranged attack, then the passage rule would just need to say "The warjack cannot be targeted by ranged attacks"

[draxius]

I really hope this was re-worded in the new book (haven't looked).

They really needed to say simply Magical Weapons make Magical Attacks. Otherwise, magical ranged attack and magical melee attack are not defined anywhere in the book except by extension.

On the contrary - the section talking about magical weapons would seem to indicate (to the rules lawyer) that they don't actually make magical attacks.

Note Magical is not part of the attack descriptor. While I do agree that it is the intention for Magical weapons to bypass these types of abilities - this definitely needs to be fixed/errata'd

I'm an old-school rules lawyer, so I try to look at things like this with a very critical eye... but I have to disagree with your conclusion (although I agree on the ambiguity). It is not reworded in the new Prime...

"Magic" does not equate to "Magical". That's the source of the confusion for most people.

Magical Weapons make Magical Attacks
Non-Magical Weapons make Non-Magical Attacks

The only time the term Magical comes into play regarding attacks is to distinguish Magical (Ranged/Melee) Attacks from Non-Magical (Ranged/Melee) Attacks.

Another note for those who still might not buy it (not directed at Justicator): Magic Attacks are, by there nature, not ranged attacks. "There are three main types of attacks: melee attacks, ranged attacks, and magic attacks." [pg. 50] If a Ranged Attack with a Magical Weapon was not a "Magical Ranged Attack", and Magic Attacks are not a "Magical Ranged Attack", why bother including the non-magical term in Passage and similar abilities?

[LasseKongo]

Ruling by infernal in last post in this thread:

http://old.privateerpressforums.com/...owtopic=191511

Even though I am a Menoth player I am glad that magical weapons can shoot, the choir would be waaaaay too cheap if there were no way around them with shooting and it would be too easy to build an ultra hard all-commers list....ooops, starting to get off topic here. Just wanted to post the link and hopes it clears what is correct and not from all doubters minds.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

And, to quote myself from that old thread:

"The problem is ... not with the way the rules are written. To paraphrase my Latin professor, "let the rule say what it says." Unless you try to make the words say something they're not saying, the interaction between the Magical Weapon property and something like Wind Wall or Safe Passage is incredibly simple."

[brotherscott]

This was a debate at our LGS (and sometimes still is).

If you read the Magical Weapons rule in the context of the entirety of the rules, it makes complete sense.
Taking things out of context and trying to interpret them makes for funny rules.