Amon Syndrome: eGoreshade eddition

[Dylar]

Alright, I know he's the pariah of the faction right now. Frankly, it makes me rather sad to consider how little he does now. But lets face it, he's still better than a handful of other options.

Now, lets look at how to make him fun to play again. Eventually we can come to a point where even the themey-ness of the lists and such makes the old cursed jerk fun to put on the field.

I smell a dark horse caster.

"Oh, eGoreshade? That's too bad" is a great phrase to follow up on with a beating.

So, how do we do it then fellas?

[Writer@Large]

So, how do we do it then fellas?

We cross our fingers and pray to Toruk that they give him a kickin' tier list.

--W@L

[PG_Rave0183]

We cross our fingers and pray to Toruk that they give him a kickin' tier list.

--W@L

Been doing it since Field Test

[PG_69Lazarus]

I don't know how to make him "fun". I can win with him just fine.....I'm just not a huge fan on infantrymachine anymore and I've got other casters who do that already...

[hauntingexperience]

Tartarus, Bane Thralls and Bane Knights. Throw in a couple Helldivers along with the Deathjack and necrotech and he's a happy caster.

Oh, and a cuban cigar!

[Mutton]

Of course you can win with him; I can win with Darius right now or non-shield guard sentinel/cyclone Kraye. Doesn't mean they are any good. Really, Amon right now is a whole lot of fun to play with, even if he's not that competitive. eShade really isn't fun or competitive.

[PG_69Lazarus]

Of course you can win with him; I can win with Darius right now or non-shield guard sentinel/cyclone Kraye. Doesn't mean they are any good.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I did not mean to imply that he was "fine" or "fun" to play because I can win with him. I've pretty much usually agreed he is not fun.....

[Mutton]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I did not mean to imply that he was "fine" or "fun" to play because I can win with him. I've pretty much usually agreed he is not fun.....

TOO LATE! WE MUST KUNG FU FIGHT NOW!

But yes, I think pretty much all the forum goers can agree to eShade's current status. Such a shame, with such a nice model and all

[PG_69Lazarus]

TOO LATE! WE MUST KUNG FU FIGHT NOW!

Awesome! (great memories of watching Kung Fu theater when I was young)

My Kung Fu is strong! (*lips out of sync)


Let's see what the tier system does.....worst case - we wait for new models.

[Kaptain Von]

Of course you can win with him; I can win with Darius right now or non-shield guard sentinel/cyclone Kraye.

I thought Kraye was pretty good before those things, actually. He'd certainly be one of my first choices as a Cygnar 'caster if I were to have a sudden attack of lunacy and change factions.

Nothing to say about epic Goreshade. Never played him, not keen on the model so probably never will. He's a fascinating part of the story but not a piece I particularly care for.

[Gorbad]

I thought Kraye was pretty good before those things, actually. He'd certainly be one of my first choices as a Cygnar 'caster if I were to have a sudden attack of lunacy and change factions.

You can win with him just fine, Iron Horse is pretty cool. But Kraye himself does very little aside from upkeeping Full Tilt and hiding.

[Arkady]

You can win with him just fine, Iron Horse is pretty cool. But Kraye himself does very little aside from upkeeping Full Tilt and hiding.

His playstyle has loosened up a bit from being a focus battery with the advent of the Cyclone and the once-again worthwhile Sentinel. He's still better in larger games where you have room for enough jacks to take advantage of Guided Fire, some heavy hitters to take advantage of his slingshot, and some support, but Cygnar has officially lame casters (even Darius is quite capable, though [almost?]redundant in his abilities as to be boring).

[hauntingexperience]

Isnt this the cryx faction community?

BACK ON TOPIC!
People tend to thing eGoreshade is a boring caster because he has few spells worth casting. However, he can fend for himself if he gets engaged by something or for some reason needs to kill something off. He is also amazing at caster asassination. Boost the first attack and use the withershadow to have puppet strings on him and the opposing caster is now stationary. Buy extra attacks and boost the damage until you win. TA-DA!!!

Use banes and Tartarus as a meat shield for swarming and engaging everything as you go. Nothing wants to take a free strike from a weapons master. (IF you dont kill it outright that is)

He plays kind of like he is portrayed. Doesnt care about the rest of his force or even about the enemy army. He single mindedly goes for what he wants AND TAKES IT!

[ResurrectioN]

^
Now, lets manipulate your words to support my point

We'll use this template:

However, INSERT CASTER NAME HERE can fend for himself if he gets engaged by something or for some reason needs to kill something off. He is also amazing at caster asassination. Boost the first attack and use the withershadow to have puppet strings on him and the opposing caster is now INSERT EFFECT HERE. Buy extra attacks and boost the damage until you win. TA-DA!!!

Use banes and Tartarus as a meat shield for swarming and engaging everything as you go. Nothing wants to take a free strike from a weapons master. (IF you dont kill it outright that is)

He plays kind of like he is portrayed. Doesnt care about the rest of his force or even about the enemy army. He single mindedly goes for what he wants AND TAKES IT!

Insert:
Gaspy; hit with sustained attack = autohits
Skarre; knocked down = autohits
eSkarre; knocked down = autohits
Teminus; at -2/-2

Now, why wouldn't i take other casters who do stuff besides go-in-and-kill-if-enemy-is-in 10-11"?

That's the problem with eGorshade.

[blakeh1]

I've only played a couple games with him. The problem I had when I played with him was that I felt it was really the army was playing the game without a caster since he really didn't make much of an impact. Never wound up using his feat in those couple of games either. Beyond handing out focus to jacks and upkeeping occultation on himself there was nothing he really did.

[Gorg]

yeah, unfortunately one of the most mutilated casters from mk1 to mk2.

they took away all of his fun abilities and spells (winters wrath, signature spell abyssal gate) or nerfed them to nearly uselessness (sudden death). still, he kept one of the weakest feats in the game which is highly situational and forces you to spam hordes of infantry to get any use out of it. his most useless spell, namely psychic vampire, is now a signature ability which is worth nothing 90% of the time.

really, was he considered broken or in any way overpowered in mk1? i mean i love mk2, its a much better game overall, but there is no way in hell that the move to cripple egoreshade into boreshade was in any kind justified...

[jandrese]

One thing I've not understood about eGoreshade hate: Is his Elite Cadre bonus considered trash? Because it's been very hard to counter for me sometimes when his Bane Thralls charge a unit and suddenly double their numbers.

His spell list is mediocre (although stealthed McThralls with all of the trimmings can survive a fairly long time and provide fuel for his feat) and his feat is probably the hardest in the game to use well, but that elite cadre bonus has to be one of the best in the game.

[Gorg]

One thing I've not understood about eGoreshade hate: Is his Elite Cadre bonus considered trash? Because it's been very hard to counter for me sometimes when his Bane Thralls charge a unit and suddenly double their numbers.

His spell list is mediocre (although stealthed McThralls with all of the trimmings can survive a fairly long time and provide fuel for his feat) and his feat is probably the hardest in the game to use well, but that elite cadre bonus has to be one of the best in the game.

so even you agree that he is just a walking elite cadre aura.

the problem for me is, i dont see any theme army bonus that would make him in any way more interesting than pgoreshade who is and will likely be still way more interesting with it than his epic version.

outside of banethrall spam + cheap infantry there is nothing you cant do better with another cryx warcaster and there is no theme army bonus that will change that, in fact, to get any theme army bonus you will likely be forced to run a subpar list with him as if he isnt already boring and bad enough. but we will see, maybe im wrong on this one (which is highly unlikely considering the already known theme army restrictions and boni).

edit: could someone please close this thread? because there is nothing positive to tell about egoreshade and we already have enough negative topics and posts in the cryx forum and the cryx community is on the way to change that a little and threads like these dont really help in that regards.

[PG_and Riot!]

Goreshade2 is currently in the same situation Asphyxious2 was in when he was released. Not all the puzzle pieces were in place yet. There were no Bane Knights or Soulhunters or Tartarus to use for Spectral Legion. Satyxis and Bane Thralls were our best options back then.

Once the inevitable Bane-o-wars are released, Goreshade2's feat will be sexy as all hell. Sac a mechanithrall to gain an 8-wound high-ARM weapon-master who gets to move-post-placement ... that's hot stuff (hypothetical, but still hot).

[blakeh1]

I didn't think about that angle. We currently have Black Ogrun (8 wound high ARM for Cryx) and Brute Thralls (8 wound, not quite as high arm). I wouldn't mind trading a mechanithrall for one.

the biggest problem with his feat is having to foreit their action

Due to that Bane Knights seem like they might be the best option since you can get still get a Vengeance move if the unit suffers damage

[Silopolis]

My problem with the Elite Cadre (and all such rules) is that they require me to buy, assemble, and paint up even MOAR BANEZ. As in, I have to own more than I can ever field based on FA, with the hope that they see game time at some point in the future. It's this way with Blackbane's, Mechs + Surgeon, everyone with that unit-bloating rule, so it's not just eGoreshade. I'm just not a fan of that whole style of gameplay, because it makes me spend more money, time, and effort than I think the rules are worth.

Back to eGoreshade, maybe his Tier 2 bonus will be "Replace eGoreshade with nGoreshade."

[Micf2302]

My problem with the Elite Cadre (and all such rules) is that they require me to buy, assemble, and paint up even MOAR BANEZ. As in, I have to own more than I can ever field based on FA, with the hope that they see game time at some point in the future. It's this way with Blackbane's, Mechs + Surgeon, everyone with that unit-bloating rule, so it's not just eGoreshade. I'm just not a fan of that whole style of gameplay, because it makes me spend more money, time, and effort than I think the rules are worth.

Maybe you play the wrong faction then? I like the whole we swell our numbers aspect. That's why I'm into cryx!


About EGoreshade:
I think he is a really good caster. Some migth find him boring, and I believe that is partially true. But I like him alot. One of my favorite caster as always been Morvahna, however she was always clunky and not that good. Egoreshade is much more interesting and much less clunky than morvahna. So I really enjoy him.

However, INSERT CASTER NAME HERE can fend for himself if he gets engaged by something or for some reason needs to kill something off. He is also amazing at caster asassination. Boost the first attack and use the withershadow to have puppet strings on him and the opposing caster is now INSERT EFFECT HERE. Buy extra attacks and boost the damage until you win. TA-DA!!!

Use banes and Tartarus as a meat shield for swarming and engaging everything as you go. Nothing wants to take a free strike from a weapons master. (IF you dont kill it outright that is)

He plays kind of like he is portrayed. Doesnt care about the rest of his force or even about the enemy army. He single mindedly goes for what he wants AND TAKES IT!

True many casters can do that and can beat face. But Goreshade is the ultimate attrition caster! With my 2 full units of bane thralls, tartarsauce and my 10 scrap thrall I have no problems winning any attrition games I get in. After I took every dangerous ennemies out I can move Goreshade in to get the kill. Goreshade's feat is REALLY powerfull IMHO, it's one of the major reasons to play him. Charge with your whole army, create new bane thralls, kill many troopers/units. Then redeploy everything as you see fit. You can even bring back Bile thralls with it (those that died at least, not the one that purged).


I agree he is really different from most caster. He is not a front line caster (like terminus and to a lesser extent Gaspys), he is not a spell slinging caster (like the covent or Denegra), but he is one heck of an infantry support machine! Sure this means you play Infantry machine with him... I only wish they would have kept shadowmancer on is epic version so he could also support jack better, but occultation goes better on an infantry caster I guess. Anyone know that Occultation on bile thralls=yummy! Well, occultation on bile thralls + the ability to bring back some thrall = double yummy.


I get everyone's feeling about him. You don't like him, ok. I hear you, but I don't find him THAT boring or uncompetitive (Some armies completely shut him down though). You migth claim that

his most useless spell, namely psychic vampire, is now a signature ability which is worth nothing 90% of the time.

I'd rather have this as an ability than as a spell. It's usually not usefull, but it can be a real nigthmare against some armies.


This beieng said I also resent the lost of some of his most interesting/fun tricks:
1) Moving someone 3 inches
2) Old sudden death which was hardly broken but out of turns thingy had to go I guess (IMHO they should have kept abysal gate instead).

The rest I don't really mind.

[Silopolis]

Maybe you play the wrong faction then? I like the whole we swell our numbers aspect. That's why I'm into cryx!

Yeah, I've been looking into Retribution and playing a lot of FT Trollbloods lately. Unfortunately, I bought and assembled and painted a lot of Cryx back before they were the Numbers-Swelling faction, so I'm stuck with at least an investment in seeing the faction be fun to play.

[SkinnyGuy]

One thing I've not understood about eGoreshade hate: Is his Elite Cadre bonus considered trash? Because it's been very hard to counter for me sometimes when his Bane Thralls charge a unit and suddenly double their numbers.

His spell list is mediocre (although stealthed McThralls with all of the trimmings can survive a fairly long time and provide fuel for his feat) and his feat is probably the hardest in the game to use well, but that elite cadre bonus has to be one of the best in the game.

His Elite Cadre is really good, but even so you can only fit so much combat into a normal sized control area like that and it immediately dictates a good chunk of your list to boot. It's the same reason I dislike nSkarre in MKII - she's all about Dark Guidance, basically, but just doesn't bring enough area of support to the table for me to care as much anymore. Except Skarre is way deeper outside of DG spam than eGore is outside of his Elite Cadre.

[blakeh1]

The ruling of this may change how one feels about his feat (personally I've always assumed he cannot create a new unit)

http://www.privateerpressforums.com/...ead.php?t=5337

If you can create a new unit under gorshade's feat, this could be nasty in terms of mechanithralls/necrosurgeon. Typically I find my mechanithralls wiped out and the necrosurgeon sitting on a bunch of corpse tokens, but no place to use them, now if Goreshade pops his feat using say sacrificing a Stitch Thrall, I place a mechanithrall and then can start recreating the unit with the necrosurgeon(s). Hmmmm....

[Micf2302]

If you go by RAW it currently work, as I stated in that thread you pointed out to.


But Vallander is rigth that it is ambiguous and that we will need to see the cards/have a ruling to know where we stand with this.


Edit [I also used the feat to bring back pistol wraith with a sçrap thrall (1/3 of a point for 3 points!!!!!)]