Battle Mages?

[basher]

Hello! I want to know if the battle mages is a good choice becouse i have read alot of articles about them and everybody seams to like them and the magisters, but i don't see why becouse they can't damage jacks but they have good abilitys and 5 points for battle mages and 4 points for 2 magister seams like alot of points for a unit that almost can't do damage. Please explain.

[Silopolis]

Without practical experience, I'll say that their power comes from being able to semi-reliably reposition your opponent's models, or even knock them down given a lucky roll.

With Rahn, they seem pretty damn awesome. You have six vectors in which to push or pull models. On Rahn's feat turn, their spells are boosted, meaning that you're more likely than not to be able to toss some dudes around. Rahn himself is no slouch at this, either.

They seem more useful for positioning shenanigans than for damage (though they can fight in melee, from what I hear). They die to a stiff breeze, but Rahn can at least protect them from AOEs, and they're immune to blast damage. From what I can tell, though, for smaller games it's better to go with Battle Mage Magisters and save the Battle Mage unit for larger games, once you've already paid for a front-line unit (Halberdiers, Sentinels, Invictors, etc.)

Please correct me if I'm wrong; like I say, this is all Theorymachine and noodling over threads on these forums.

[basher]

but if they are there to push around his modells but not doing damage they seams really overprized im i not right? becouse the armies i will battle against is going to have pure power and i cannot damage them and that is bad right?

[Rynth]

but if they are there to push around his modells but not doing damage they seams really overprized im i not right? becouse the armies i will battle against is going to have pure power and i cannot damage them and that is bad right?

In a word, no.

Opponent blocks a charge lane, the battle mages clear it either by rolling well or moving it.
Opponent keeps his X out of charge range of your Y, the battle mages bring them closer.

Positioning is damn near the most important thing in this game, and battle mages give you a degree of control over your opponent's positioning.

A unit of Battle Mages and 2 magisters might be unneccessary in many armies, but many armies could benefit from a bit of Battle Magery.

[basher]

if you have a magister i can understand but a unit that cant do more than move seams bad becouse they cost alot of points. but i see what they are good at but i don't think that is enough.

[Silopolis]

if you have a magister i can understand but a unit that cant do more than move seams bad becouse they cost alot of points. but i see what they are good at but i don't think that is enough.

It seems like with anyone but Rahn, they're almost wasted. With Rahn, they can stack onto his positioning powers and really mess things up. But then, you have one trick: opening a hole for Rahn (or the Magister) to slam an enemy model into something important.

[basher]

still is it really good enough against most lists. is it competitive? and how should a play to play it right?

[Silopolis]

Honestly, I'm not the guy to say, but I can tell you what I'm sorta planning (Since I'm a bit of a Rahn-tier theory-nerd).

I'd take Rahn, Manticore, Phoenix, a Magister, and 2 Arcanists (I think that fills it up at 15, one of the Arcanists is free since this is a Tier 2 Rahn list!). This list is all about the jacks, though.

For 25 points, add a minimum unit of Halberdiers and our friends the Battle Mages. Drop an Arcanist and take another Magister.

That gives you 8 Battle Mages moving dudes around, and Rahn with Telekineses/Force Hammer/etc., and you have the Phoenix and Manticore to break stuff once you've opened holes in the enemy's defense. Meanwhile, you have some Halberdiers to take the enemy's attack... and you can shoot your spells/warjack ranged attacks through the Halberdiers, because they have Ranked Attacking or whatever that's called.

I don't know if it's "good enough", but it sounds like a lot of fun to me.

[barrel]

I have no clue completely how "good" they are but I think you have to change the way you are looking at them.

You need to stop looking at them as a unit that you buy to move things around. If you continue to look at them like that then you are going to end up real hit and miss with them. So here are a few things to look at

RNG 10 POW 10 magic attack that just so happens to push or pull models or could KD the model. Think of it as a side effect.

2 Melee attacks with a decent melee attack value and P+S 11 with beatback thats not bad

Def 15 against range and no blast damage

If your looking to buy them just for the push/pull then yeah it is going to be hit or miss. I find sometimes when I buy a model for a certain purpose I tend to forget the other things the model can do. I sometimes force the model into bad spots or other models in my army in bad spots because I am so focused on trying to get the model to perform its preconceived role.

[Lazlo]

I like Battle Mages and the Magisters quite a lot, but rarely would I take both unless I were playing Rahn. Usually I'll maybe throw one or two Magisters in a list for the added board control, or if I have the points a unit of Battle Mages (5 points for 6 models isn't a bad price).

If you are looking for pure hitting power, then these guys are not want you want. But they do offer some very useful abilities:

1. Board control. Moving enemy models is huge, and the potential knockdowns are gravy.

2. Magic attacks. Their magic attacks get past defenses against ranged attacks, which can be quite useful at times. The down side is that effects that prevent spells prevent them from using this.

3. If all you see is their magic attack, you are missing out. Two P+S 11 MAT 6 melee attacks with Beatback is great for clearing out single wound infantry. I've had a few of these guys take out a unit of Temple Flameguard. Remember, you get to make that 1" move even if you kill your target.

4. As far as the Magisters go, everything above applies (except they are even more accurate), but add in the sexy sexy Combo Smite for a P+S 15 attack.

Battle Mages and Magisters are not beaters. They are not going to do a ton of damage. But they give you options. Against single wounders they can kill as well as just about anything. Against heavier targets they give you the ability to reposition and possible knockdown.

They make an excellent addition to a combined arms force. Take some ranged (Ret has plenty of that) to shore up the anti-spell weakness. Take some melee power (Ret has some of that) to kill things that you pull into charge range.

And on Rahn's feat turn they are stellar.

[Ferox21]

Well, i recently deployed Rahn with two Magisters and a unit of Battel mages. My oponent had Cygnar and placed his caster behind a Defender. When on turn i activated the feat, used the (well positioned) magisters to pull the jack aside and the mages pulled the caster towards my line, damaging him by doing this (def 14 vs 6+3d6 is not that hard to miss) and Holt i deployed was finally in range and finished him of with ease.

This might be luck thanks to a unfortunate position by my oponent, but i liked the Battle mage theme before this and in my eyes they have proven their worth...

[Sevwall]

Ranged attackers that are very resistant to ranged attacks. Easy repositioning of enemy models to increase/decrease threat ranges and open up lanes. Decent melee punch when required.

[theorymachine]

Rest assured that many games are won in Rahn's feat turn, given sufficient Battle Mage attack vectors.

[Sevwall]

I have a friend who plays a mittens theme list. The feat turn is bonkers in that situation, where every single attack is fully boosted.

Its not balanced. It either completely wipes you, or gets completely wiped. I hate theme lists.

But thats a seperate issue. They are indeed much better on Rahn's feat turn, since it was primarily designed to boost them.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

I have a friend who plays a mittens theme list. The feat turn is bonkers in that situation, where every single attack is fully boosted.

Its not balanced. It either completely wipes you, or gets completely wiped. I hate theme lists.

But thats a seperate issue. They are indeed much better on Rahn's feat turn, since it was primarily designed to boost them.

Do you mean the tier lists? If so I'm not sure this is an issue of those, as outside of the tier you can still take 2 Magisters and 2 units of BM. Rahn's tier lists would only give you a few extra of these (at the expense of much else), a free arcanist and an advance move on the mages.

[theorymachine]

The only disadvantageous situation is if there is magic ability targeting denial, as supplied by the Choir of Menoth or Circle Druids or the like. Other then that, being able to move and getting critical knock down on a boosted attack roll is quite a strong effect.
Furthermore, the likelihood of scoring damage against single wound models with power 10 + 3D6 is high, especially with 6 +3D6 to hit.

[Sevwall]

3 Magisters, 3 Mittens units, no fun.

Its not the fact that its too good. Its the fact that its so damn boring. Either you have counter magic and it does nothing, or you don't and you will be very lucky to survive feat turn.

Its more an issue with theme lists than mittens. An army comprised purely of MHA's and The Mage Hunter units with UA's has similar issues. Either they rock you, or you rock them. Its far too close to determining games at list building for my liking.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

3 Magisters, 3 Mittens units, no fun.

Its not the fact that its too good. Its the fact that its so damn boring. Either you have counter magic and it does nothing, or you don't and you will be very lucky to survive feat turn.

Its more an issue with theme lists than mittens. An army comprised purely of MHA's and The Mage Hunter units with UA's has similar issues. Either they rock you, or you rock them. Its far too close to determining games at list building for my liking.

It's certainly an issue with tiered lists on the retribution side, but its also an issue of playing the spam game on the other side. Bringing multiples of most things can get boring real quick, and thanks to the MK I Field officers, lots of things have a silly high FA. MOW Shocktroops: FA 3? Really?