meta-gaming vs Retribution

[PG_Electric Seal]

So far I've been bringing my all-comers lists against my local Ret players and have lost all 3 games that I've played. The Mage hunter strike force shut down just about every strategy I could think of, and by the time I got to the enemy line with the bulk of my troops I'd lost over a third of my army. And don't get me started on Narn...

Considering I don't have Iron Fangs ready to play just yet, what caster and units would you guys take to stomp some elf.

[OldOneEye]

I'll be interested to see what's suggested, too. I've only had the pleasure of playing against a Retribution themed list once (Kaelyssa and a butt-ton of Mage Hunters-- you know, the "LOS? What's that?" army), so I don't have much practical knowledge to contribute.

As for warcasters, either version of the Butcher would be my top choice, as he's best suited to taking hits. Karchev might do okay, too. Anyone else is going to just have to stay all the way in the back and hope their army can do the work for them.

Unit-wise, my Winterguard were doing very well. You pay for the full unit with all the add-ons and Jozef, but you can cover a lot of the table then, and those boosted spray attacks will mulch most Retribution infantry and solos.

[PG_Deathraven]

It's hard to give advice without knowing what you're fielding and what they're fielding too. I've found against retribution it's important to focus on killing off their annoying solos and to make sure your caster is well protected at all time. If you're not already using one, the Bokur is a must.

[otakud00d]

Bob and weaving Winter-guard with sprays will give Mage Hunters fits. They're only RAT 6 and will have to roll 8+ to even hit them. Kovnik Joe boosts their hit rolls and away they go!

Keep in mind that for all they're worth, mage hunters only shoot at POW 10. 3d6 of POW 10 isn't that threatening against Khador warjack armor. Outside of Ravyn's feat, they'll have a hard time even hitting most of your warcasters. Also, throw AOEs their way and they'll crumble.

[Kuarnix]

As for warcasters, either version of the Butcher would be my top choice, as he's best suited to taking hits. Karchev might do okay, too. Anyone else is going to just have to stay all the way in the back and hope their army can do the work for them.

It's kind of a toss up between those two. The Mage Hunters will get a boosted damage roll against Karchev and ignore his powerfield....and they're probably not going to miss him. That said I think Karchev might have some better tools for killing the mage hunters. I haven't played against it enough to really know, but I DID play against it enough to know it hurts

[PG_Electric Seal]

Well here is what I dont have: Pikemen. Assassins and Doomreavers. Everything else is an option. Its been suggested to take MoWst and run them with eIrusk's tactical supremacy. That and a full winterguard unit might be the backbone of my next attempt. Previously I had taken assualt kommandos and their low defense really hurt. As for Narn, I might actually let him take a hit on my caster, if only to prevent his sprint and guarantee his death next turn.

AOE's are really unreliable, especially If i don't babysit them to keep Narn away, but I figure one mortar can't hurt.

Manhunter's are probably a good idea to. Flank with them and force the mage hunters to spend a turn dealing with them, while WG and ST advance.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Well, Karchev in Sidearms with his jacks will give the Magehunters fits esp if he brings enough jacks.

[PG_vytzka]

Karchev also can basically negate Kaelyssa's feat with powerslide.

[OldOneEye]

Keep in mind that for all they're worth, mage hunters only shoot at POW 10. 3d6 of POW 10 isn't that threatening against Khador warjack armor. Outside of Ravyn's feat, they'll have a hard time even hitting most of your warcasters. Also, throw AOEs their way and they'll crumble.

The problem with what I've bolded there is that it only holds true for so long. When your opponent is fielding 20 or so models that can shoot at your warcaster regardless of what's going on anywhere on the table, enough of them WILL hit.

That's how I lost my single game to the Kaelyssa list. My opponent moved all his Mage Hunters close enough to shoot at Sorscha2, and they did. She's DEF 16, but enough of them hit to whittle her down. Kaelyssa was then able to finish the job without much trouble. The ONLY answer to that is to take someone they can't kill like that (Butcher) or forgo supporting your army and keep the warcaster all the way in the back where those Mage Hunters will never get close enough.

Wouldn't Sidearms be useless against the Mage Hunters? It's a spell effect that adds to Karchev's DEF.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Wouldn't Sidearms be useless against the Mage Hunters? It's a spell effect that adds to Karchev's DEF.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Bring enough jacks though and you can block LOS to Karchev while protecting his army from those that do not ignore the Def bonus.

[PG_n00buaddib]

Doom Reavers are probably the worst thing you can take. They're expensive and vulnerable to shooting which is a bad combination against Ret. As someone has suggested, how about MoW? Throw in either Vlad and you should be ok. I only played retribution once (3 light jacks, 2 full units + UAs (invictors and mage hunters), Ravyn and some solos) and I played a jack heavy I'll-set-everything-on-fire eFeora list. Killed 8 magehunters with 4 Redeemer shots and the remaining 3 just shot one of my jacks so...I'm not sure what half of their stuff does exactly. But tough non-warjack targets sound ok, as do tough warjacks.

[Ger]

Not sure AK's are a good choice until they get flamethrowers. Heck run the Flamethrowers into their lines to give them fits.

Kossites could be useful as a tie up unit. Have them run into melee to prevent mage hunters from shooting. Should be able to get there a bit faster, and forcing an enemy with low arm values to clump or be ambushed isn't a bad thing either.

[OldOneEye]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Bring enough jacks though and you can block LOS to Karchev while protecting his army from those that do not ignore the Def bonus.

The whole LOS blocking thing depends on what Retribution list you're facing. When all those Mage Hunters ignore LOS, it doesn't matter what you put in front of Karchev-- they can shoot him.

[PG_Shadow37]

Not sure AK's are a good choice until they get flamethrowers. Heck run the Flamethrowers into their lines to give them fits.

Kossites could be useful as a tie up unit. Have them run into melee to prevent mage hunters from shooting. Should be able to get there a bit faster, and forcing an enemy with low arm values to clump or be ambushed isn't a bad thing either.

This could be a viable option. How about running a Kodiak into their ranks? A Devy can work, but not having Pathfinder can be a problem. I've also used a page from Cygnar's strategy book by using Midwinter to chain lightning off of one of my warjacks.

[OldOneEye]

When they come out, the Man-o-War Bombardiers should be effective as well. An entire unit of burly multi-wound models, all of them lobbing AOEs-- that'll create some problems for the Mage Hunter units.

[jack frost]

honestly, against kaylissa and her mage hunter strike force, I generally lob mortar shots at his army while my giant winterguard squad aggressively pushes against the mage hunters if they're the problem. they can't hit df17 very well and not enough to make it matter.

I usually keep sorscha in command range of the front line and well behind the WG and beast. I only bring her up to the front line in time to get kaylissa in her feat range for a bunch of boosted spray attacks from the winterguard.

just remember that the mage hunters die to a stiff breeze and a few rounds from the mortars should deal with them nicely.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Played against a Kaelssya list with a Ranged Butcher list (Of sorts) i've been working on, without mortars as i was trying to use other things.

My opponent gave me the game on turn four when he realised that he just wasn't doing enough damage to me, he didn't make the best choices granted, but at not time did I not feel in charge.

[Avecrien]

Tell me of this plinky Butcher force.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Widowmakers, Field Guns with Jozef, Shock Troopers plus Kovnik, Eiryss, Greylords.

Because i'm only running the one jack, it is Beast 09, otherwise 2 Kodiaks.

Oh, and a puppy.

[jack frost]

I guess you weren't playing against the garrythe army of stealth...

blech...it was gross..an entire army of stealth...fortunately I had an entire army of boosted spray attacks

[otakud00d]

The whole LOS blocking thing depends on what Retribution list you're facing. When all those Mage Hunters ignore LOS, it doesn't matter what you put in front of Karchev-- they can shoot him.

I realized something, too.

Mage Hunters are -nasty- against Karchev. He takes damage like a Warjack. Given the precedent for Karchev, it means they'll be firing at 3d6 POW 10 against him. That's pretty terrifying.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I guess you weren't playing against the garrythe army of stealth...

blech...it was gross..an entire army of stealth...fortunately I had an entire army of boosted spray attacks

Played against a Kaelssya list with a Ranged Butcher list (Of sorts) i've been working on, without mortars as i was trying to use other things.

No, I wasn't playing against Garrythe. Reminds me, that i should get around to reading the Ret book i've just recently brought.

[Avecrien]

I'm gearing up for Resurgence using pButcher and I'm feeling the pinch of the shop's lowered points rounds along with no characters. I don't typically field most of what I replace with character models/units. Heh, I don't even own the half of what I'm now considering
And I expect a lot of elfs there, so this interests me greatly.

[PG_Lord Stormbringer]

Granted this is mostly Theorymachine, but has any one tried pVlad and the Behemoth/Destroyers against the Mage Hunter lists?

I've had pretty limited experience against the Retribution but AoEs seem to be the best way to deal with the Mage Hunter strike force. Keep wind wall up so they can't hit you and just let blast damage whittle them down.

If there's a hole in that theory, by all means let me know. But that seems solids based on my admittedly limited experience with them.

[ShockwaveIIC]

If there's a hole in that theory, by all means let me know. But that seems solids based on my admittedly limited experience with them.

Only the ability to make weapons magical (Chianna).

[Kommissar Golovko]

I realized something, too.

Mage Hunters are -nasty- against Karchev. He takes damage like a Warjack. Given the precedent for Karchev, it means they'll be firing at 3d6 POW 10 against him. That's pretty terrifying.

Not really unless they have good rolls.

[MikeC103]

My best friend plays Ret and they are a pain in the red backside. I usually face Kaylissa, a mage hunter assasin, Arcanist, Narn, Ghost sniper and the jerks with crossbows and the Pheonix Myrmadon.

I have had some success with Widowmakers, I use them to try and pick off the Assassin before it gets near my army. I also send the Demo corps after the warjack and sniper. I use Destroyer to lob AOEs at the crossbow guys and I use Sorcha to make the enemy stationary.

[mecra]

I wanted to resurrect a slightly old thread since I'm going to be playing Scryah soon. Here's a question, what do you guys think of a Wind Wall Vlad Devastator or something else delivery system?

I was looking at their stats and really only the casters and jacks have magical weapon. So if I were to run up with closed Devas and pop the feat with signs and go amok, do you think that has validity?

[Si11y Putty]

oops nevermind post edited for dumbness

[scud]

Doom Reavers are probably the worst thing you can take. They're expensive and vulnerable to shooting which is a bad combination against Ret.

I couldn't disagree more, if you start them behind terrain, allow their front line to move up and just run them into combat with as many of them as possible, it will force them to deal with the Doomies under your circumstances in a way they're not equipped to. If you use Irusk's feat, they'll bog down all the shooters long enough for you to do damage.

Hell, they may even fail some terror checks and stand their to be cut to shreds. Never forget, there's nothing in this game 12 Doom Reavers can't handle.

[marskitten]

Granted this is mostly Theorymachine, but has any one tried pVlad and the Behemoth/Destroyers against the Mage Hunter lists?

I've had pretty limited experience against the Retribution but AoEs seem to be the best way to deal with the Mage Hunter strike force. Keep wind wall up so they can't hit you and just let blast damage whittle them down.

If there's a hole in that theory, by all means let me know. But that seems solids based on my admittedly limited experience with them.

One of their casters has force field which lets him dictate where your deviated shots go. Adeptis Rahn. But that's just the beginning of your headaches if you fight him.

[PG_Lord Stormbringer]

I wanted to resurrect a slightly old thread since I'm going to be playing Scryah soon. Here's a question, what do you guys think of a Wind Wall Vlad Devastator or something else delivery system?

I was looking at their stats and really only the casters and jacks have magical weapon. So if I were to run up with closed Devas and pop the feat with signs and go amok, do you think that has validity?

I'm not huge fan of that idea. It's a fairly obvious list and if they're smart they'll spread out to negate the Devestator's already limited footprint.

It's not a bad idea but it's not something that can be the sum total of your army.

[Jetsetneo]

*Takes a Look at this Spriggan. Takes a look at the Mage Hunter stats. Looks at the Spriggan. Looks at the Mage Hunters. Spriggan. Mage Hunters. Spriggan. Hunters. *
"Nope, nothing to see here moving on..."

But on a serious note, lately my Spriggan has been my anti-LOS shenanigans workhorse (mostly outta local meta, people love their eiryesses and bailochs) Targeting flares are my babys, and they keep on ticking even when the Spriggan has been chopped off on both ends. Basically popping one flare and then one of the 'nades on the otherwise squishy MHUnit, makes that a single model to wreak havoc on 'em. Thats without any outside support. Taking in a caster to help along the Spriggans speed, or boosting shots, helps also. Then taking a combined arms approach, the pinnacle starts at mortars and just goes crazy from there. And when the squishy knife-ears are done for the Spriggan can certainly handle himself versus other jacks on his own (Not necessarily just Myrmidons)

Granted this isn't fool-proof. 1 Flare certainly isn't going to get all of them. Hell both flares may not get the whole unit either. If your opponent realizes your 'tech', It'll be a whoever-gets-there-first battle between the Spriggan and that MHunit. Basically whoever gets the drop should win that battle (though the Spriggan's Chances of surviving are fairly good as far as im concerned) . There are plenty of things to help you along, I plan on playing some Irusk for my resurgence, between the Spriggan, Airblast, and (as per my personal strategy ) Superiority, sneaky assassiny bits should be dealt with fairly easily.

Irusk by himself is actually not bad idea either. Winter Guard are a possibility I'm looking into, specifically with the attachment, which will make MHUnit cringe. Basically waste resources on chumps, or watch mass grape shots bring 'em down (pIrusk's feat helps this a ton, EIrusk has FFE which may help depending on the list) .

lol so yea we got answers to Mage Hunters.

[Zaqir]

A few things you can do.

1)Stay away at range and draw them out. To hopefully try and lob a mortar or bombard on them. That negates any stealth tricks they might bring with certain casters.

If they play with Rahn then potentially using Widowmakers straight up or Winterguard will help.

2)Karchev aint that bad to be honest but there are dangerous, the Jacks to block LOS can work but they can potentially shoot through anything if i am not mistaken but don't be afraid to try and use cover and concealment. A kodiak's vent can give Karchev just enough DEF to have them miss.

3)Don't forget a handy dandy Ogrun Bokur, he has just enough armor to absorb a hit or 2. It can make a difference.

4)Shocktroopers are interesting, you can advance up and shield wall and Arm 21 is something they CANNOT deal with, if they hide and whatnot you can run up, multi wounds and armor 17 is still decent.

Even IFP and shield wall is a thought.

5)Yuri, even at 14 def they might have a hard time getting at him, the thresher can hurt a ton of them. Watch out cause if they live they might CMA him back.

6)The devestator should not be dismissed. People shrug off that 3 inch range but its bigger then they realize since it surrounds all of him.

7)Drakhun wont get hurt by them that much, they will need 10s to ping through so he can tie them up. Fenris might get hurt but he can get in there faster and potentially scare them and kill a few.

8)Trust in our jacks, while the potential for damage is there to be sure and I know we will get hurt its not a garantee, they still will need to roll above average so there are times when you will get WRECKED big time and times when you wont be touched. Running jacks in to engage them and maybe something else can help a ton, even 1 manhunter or 2 can tie them in melee long enough for you to trample the crap out of them.



Sometimes the problem is not what 1 tool will deal with them but how you combine your forces. Again I will be honest the Drakhun can get in there pretty fast and tie them up and maybe kill 1-3 depending on impact hits and whatnot. Then you have a chance to bring in other forces to work on them.

[PG_Pickles]

4)Shocktroopers are interesting, you can advance up and shield wall and Arm 21 is something they CANNOT deal with, if they hide and whatnot you can run up, multi wounds and armor 17 is still decent.

Even IFP and shield wall is a thought.

Mage Hunter Assassins can deal with STs as they are then only Arm 17 with 4 boxes. You may win the trade though (not if you face 5).

[Kommissar Golovko]

Do Mage Hunter Assassins ignore shields?

Edit: Ah found the answer at Battle College. Yes they do.

[PG_ChainGun]

After you kill Eyriss (and since when killing Eyriss wasn't top priority anyway?) Retribution player will have hard time dealing with our high ARM warcasters. Karchev can simply run forward with his ARM 25 and ignore most models on the table. Butcher can do the same and so can Vlad.

[Kommissar Golovko]

After you kill Eyriss (and since when killing Eyriss wasn't top priority anyway?) Retribution player will have hard time dealing with our high ARM warcasters. Karchev can simply run forward with his ARM 25 and ignore most models on the table. Butcher can do the same and so can Vlad.

Not when the Mage Hunter Strike Force has Arcane Assassin thereby ignoring the bonus granted by focus to Arm as well as spell effects adding bonus to Def and Arm.

Adding the UA means they will ignore LOS requirements.

Karchev will also get hurt badly because he will suffer against the Strike Force's Jack Hunter rule.

[Scalpel]

One of my regular opponent's uses them every time.

I take pVlad, either Butcher, or Karchev (with Mechanic's) ... and a ton of Jack's, WG + UA (for Sprays), widowmakers for the dawnguard ... and that's it really.

They cannot take all your Jacks out, they really don't have the punch and/or armour debuffs. Probably Flank is their best tool, and as long as you can kill the Jacks they are not getting much use from that.

I'll often lose 1 Heavy against them ... maybe a 2nd' badly damaged, but that's it .. the other 1-2 will still get to their caster and then it's game over.

The only Warlocks I haven't played against is Rhan, which might be a godo counter to a heavy Jack list.

BTW when I say "heavy jack list" I mean it ... 2-3 at 25pts, 3-4 at 35pts, 4-6 at 50pts.

[PG_Kevin B]

Mage hunters aside the unit I am having issues with are the battle mages.

They are a pain in the neck.

Mate pulled it out on me not even knowing how good it would work himself. It was a Rain tiered list so two units with advanced movement, the feat means they hit hard and easily and at longer range. They pull units all over the shop so say goodbye to shieldwall or a jack out of control range etc. You cant blast them as they are immune to AOEs and they have an ok defence so you cant just mow them down.

How do we take these out?