Running a lot of models under time constraints?

[Uratoh]

I got to try out Garryth of the Retribution today, and he works well with a LOT of infantry, it seems...he wants to just hang on to his focus, throw a gallows here or there, etc...this ended up with me having some 30 models on the table...an entire unit vengeancing then apparating, etc it takes a lot of time with all that stuff. How do you manage to fit it all into 10 minutes for steamroller? @_@

[infamousd]

Try movement trays for the first bit, then one you get into combat, it will speed up. thats my plan with the 30+ zombies i run for my Cryx

[Refyougee]

How do you manage to fit it all into 10 minutes for steamroller? @_@

In a lot of cases, you don't. It's why Terminus lists (for example) are lots of fun in casual games but tend to suffer in tourneys.

[Lanz]

Quick hands, quick thinking. It doesn't take 10 min to move even 40 models(and I have more than that in my eKreoss list). You have to be planning it out during your opponent's turn though.

[Mustakrakish]

Its not the moving I struggle with, its the amount of dice I have to roll when attacking! Full WGI death star spraying... thats a lot of rolls....

[PG_Duckboy]

I have no problems running 4 units of doom reavers at 35 or 50 point time limits.

[The Happy Anarchist]

In this post about infantry heavy troll lists I gave some thoughts. This was primarily about my 50 model 50 point eMadrak list but a lot of it applies in general.

So, key thoughts. You have tons of infantry and it is disposable. Don't worry about bunching up, keep basica bout an inch spacing. Only ever measure the 1" on cabers to keep in take up range (using their melee range to measure) but mostly just run it quickly and go. Don't worry too much about spacing and other tricks or getting to close or anything. It is 100% okay to have your front line get charged, or ran and engaged or shot or what have you. Burrowers dig first, generally speaking to get them out of the way and keep time short. Scouts beeline for the nearest forest/cover/objective.
It is fine getting your first line hammered when your second line can clean up, especially with feat.

Have your dice ready for tough checks on your opponents turn, don't be a **** and fumble for them.

Next turn, do important things first and be on the bounce. You may need to occasionally run models to key places rather than attack at first while you learn to move quickly but as you get going you will only do that if you can't charge.

Oh another trick is instead of trying to cram every model into melee you can on charge turns, especially on the turn you are going to pop your feat - just charge part of the unit in and hold the second back a bit for countercharging. Between feat and regular attacks they can usually clear out everything they hit and anything they don't will be in melee and you can countercharge next turn.

Other playing fast tips, always keep your dice handy and in the same place. Same thing with rulers, templates, tape and the like. Memorize your cards of course. It's doable.

[marskitten]

I play an Irusk 35 pt hardcore with 40+ models on 7 minute turns. It is hard but doable.
First know what you want to do before you foe finishes his turn. You don't have time to plot or figure out order of activation or look things up. Get the figuring things out part done before your foe passes turn

Two, bring multiple colors of dice. One color to hit, one to damage, an a third for location. Throw them in succession so you don't have to scoop after every roll, nor will you confuse them with each other. Having a little rolling tray or cup helps keep the dice from going everywhere.

Three prioritize. What absolutely needs to be done, what has the greatest chance of success and things you need to just run before the timer runs out. AoE attacks eat up tons of time, sprays less so, so prioritize your attacks.

[wazatdingder]

Try movement trays for the first bit, then one you get into combat, it will speed up. thats my plan with the 30+ zombies i run for my Cryx

I heard that movement trays are not legal.

[Nalik]

It can be done, but you need to know your army and use time saving tricks like rolling to attack and damage at the same time using different colored dice.

[absent]

Practice is the main way, pausing your timer while your opponent screws around with tough checks and marking damage helps too, i play a 40 model list with a mid turn entire army move in 10 minute turns (shae) because i have a lot of practice and don't allow the clock to run while my opponent fumbles with their cards and dice.

[Murkhadh]

Plan your turn out, on your opponents turn. The models you have attacking, know what you need to roll to hit ahead of time. Know what the dice minus is damage roll.

So your turn should be like
"12 models move"
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
okay this guy on this one, 7 to hit, dice minus 5 damage
etc

Then always know whats the most important models/moves/attacks to make

if you do run low on time, skip the less important kills for the ones that kill the stuff that HAS to die.

[Dragons_Daughter]

Is it legal to write your mat, rat, defense, and armor on the back of your bases for quick reference? That would be convenient lol oppponent points at a model, you know everything you need to know.

[bakaryu]

As Murkhadh said the best thing you can do to improve your turn time is to know what your opponent's DEF and ARM is so that you can know before hand what you need to roll. There is a huge amount of difference in the time it takes to roll a dice and add your MAT and compare it to your opponents DEF (and likewise for damage rolls) than to have calculated before hand that you need 7's to hit and 2d6-5 for damage. You are easily talking about 4-5 seconds difference per attack, and when you are running a lot of infantry that much difference quickly adds up to at least half a minute or more.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Is it legal to write your mat, rat, defense, and armor on the back of your bases for quick reference? That would be convenient lol oppponent points at a model, you know everything you need to know.

It is legal, but if you need to do it then you probably need a bit more practice before trying to run a large model count list in timed turns. You should know the relevant stats for every model in your list. Memorized, at very least the Mat/Rat/Def/Arm/Pow - It is also helpful to know your opponents stats so you don't have to ask but that can come later. Just make sure your opponent is on the bounce. Also, as absent said your clock should not be running if they are looking for dice, trying to find their card to mark damage, trying to decide whether to transfer. You should not lose time because of anything they do basically, so be ready to stop the clock if necessary.

[Murkhadh]

Also on deviations, roll two diff color dice, anounce before the roll which one is direction, roll first, then hold up the template and the tape to determine what got hit.

Then quickly roll for any damage that you already hopefuly know what numbers you need.

Also sometimes I skip blast damge if its like I need to roll a 12 to do 1 damage to a jack. Getting all of my attacks in is usually far more beneficial than the 1 in 12 chance of doing that 1 more damage.

[Dan from Chicago]

Also sometimes I skip blast damge if its like I need to roll a 12 to do 1 damage to a jack. Getting all of my attacks in is usually far more beneficial than the 1 in 12 chance of doing that 1 more damage.

Strictly speaking are you allowed to do that? If it hits don't you have to roll the dice?

[Lanz]

Strictly speaking are you allowed to do that? If it hits don't you have to roll the dice?

Technically yes, you do, but if neither player cares, I'm sure he won't stop you. It matters if the damaged target is going to gain something from the damage roll.

[Valander]

I heard that movement trays are not legal.

That is correct. Since each model must complete its movement before beginning another model's movement, and because there are effects which can trigger at the end of a model's movement (like counter charge), you cannot use movement trays.

[Murkhadh]

Technically yes, you do, but if neither player cares, I'm sure he won't stop you. It matters if the damaged target is going to gain something from the damage roll.

If there was somethign to be gained from the damage I would definately roll. I only do this when there isn't though.

[Notme]

Is it legal or generally acceptable for you to have a little notepad to write down def/arm of your opponents models to recalculate?

[PG_MrChom]

Is it legal or generally acceptable for you to have a little notepad to write down def/arm of your opponents models to recalculate?

All stats of all models are public knowledge....you want to write something down you go right ahead.

[Chouraku]

Perfectly legal.

[The Happy Anarchist]

If there was somethign to be gained from the damage I would definately roll. I only do this when there isn't though.

More importantly, if there is something your opponent can gain from the damage roll you have to roll. Like Relentless or Unnatural Aggression. You may have to roll anyway just by following the rules. Forgoing attacks is within the rules, but I think if an AOE clips something you have to roll it. Obviously not in a friendly game, but I try and make sure I am following all the rules in a tourney.

[sepher32]

Practice practice. Knowing your models and your army inside and out, knowing the stats on the enemy models, and having a plan for your turn are the keys to speed.

I played in Hardcore with a 36 model list (7 minute turns), managed not to time out and only needed my extension in 2 of 5 rounds.

[rocksalt]

Practice practice. Knowing your models and your army inside and out, knowing the stats on the enemy models, and having a plan for your turn are the keys to speed.

This! Practice and have a plan. Also, on your "big" turn or caster kill attempt, take your time so you don't make mistakes since you are going to use your extension.

I've ran big Terminus lists in tournaments before without time problems and without using any kind of different dice mechanic. It is important to be able to finish your turns quickly without the use of a dice mechanic (such as rolling the hit and damage dice at the same time) because you never know if you will run into an opponent that doesn't want you to use it (which is their right to object).

[Lamoron]

I just had my first timed tournament this weekend, so I've been thinking a lot about it since Saturday.

Though you should by no means delay your opponents turn more than required (I mean it... bad player, stop thinking that!), the timed turns give some units an edge. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders are a prime example, as in your turn you simply need to run them to engage, and every single roll they need to make is done in your opponents turn. You can even be gracious and let your opponent add some time to his clock if you need to take 10 free strikes and place 10 new Blackbane's, because it still doesn't take time away from your rounds. Units/models that do their thing outside your turn are great for timed tournaments.

In the same line of thinking you have units/models that won't need to roll anything to accomplish something. Bile Thralls is a good example, as they will kill many models without ever rolling. They automatically hit models, and if the model has ARM 13 or less it automatically dies as well (every roll that takes time, like corrosion, is done in your opponents turn as well). Here we also find units that take up no time until they strike, like Helldivers which simply appear, move, and disappear, without needing any thought or planning. Mostly they're just a threat you need to juggle around until they strike.

Create spell markers, soul tokens, power tokens etc. in advance, and put everything you will need in small stacks on the table, ready for use. Make easy to use wreck markers that just slide under the model before lifting it, and any other time saving thing you can think up.

Take units that won't require huge amounts of time. I know this seems obvious, but if you bring Bane Knights and Darragh Wrathe, you can find yourself moving the same 7-8 Bane Knights three times per round, and roll attacks twice.

That's what I've found so far... I've played just around 30 games in total, so I guess I'll discover more things with experience. Other than that, knowing the caster is hugely important. I won both games this Saturday with the caster I knew, and lost both games with the one I didn't.

/Lamoron

[Hjelmen0]

Though you should by no means delay your opponents turn more than required (I mean it... bad player, stop thinking that!), the timed turns give some units an edge. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders are a prime example, as in your turn you simply need to run them to engage, and every single roll they need to make is done in your opponents turn. You can even be gracious and let your opponent add some time to his clock if you need to take 10 free strikes and place 10 new Blackbane's, because it still doesn't take time away from your rounds. Units/models that do their thing outside your turn are great for timed tournaments.

Steamroller allows any player to stop his clock if resolving enemy effects are taking up an inordinate amount of his/her time. So it's not about being gracious at all, just using the rules

[PG_MrChom]

Steamroller allows any player to stop his clock if resolving enemy effects are taking up an inordinate amount of his/her time. So it's not about being gracious at all, just using the rules

I stop the clock almost every time my opponent has to make a decision, and as a courtesy I stop it every time I need to look up a rule or make free strikes in their turn for them most of the time. I want to see who can come up with the best strategy in the given time, not who can game the clock to have 30 seconds more than an opponent

[Murkhadh]

More importantly, if there is something your opponent can gain from the damage roll you have to roll. Like Relentless or Unnatural Aggression. You may have to roll anyway just by following the rules. Forgoing attacks is within the rules, but I think if an AOE clips something you have to roll it. Obviously not in a friendly game, but I try and make sure I am following all the rules in a tourney.

Thats almost exactly what I said.

[mikelizzio]

EDIT: because I posted something dumb (and redundant).

[Funkylovebear]

I went to a 50pt hardcore(7 min turns) tournament a month or so ago and the guy who won played pskare with max bane knights, max bane thralls and max mechanithralls with stich tralls. He eventually won the tournament mainly because he knew what he was doing!!
Another guy ran the Cray teir list (I believe it was featured in no quarter after winning a tournament) but becuase he did not practice with the list it did not go well (he tried to calvery charge his stormclad through a long rider to charge Mulg, unfortunatly he needed 13 to kill the longrider and did not boost the damage).
So in conclusion you can run any list you just have to know it inside out.

[trolldrengi]

I have no problems running 4 units of doom reavers at 35 or 50 point time limits.

Indeed, I ran 7 units + Yuri, 2 Manhunters, Fenris, eButch and a 'jack in Hardcore and it's not an issue at all. Just depends on how complicated a given model/unit is in it's in-game interactions. Doomies just do one thing, so they're pretty straightforward.

-Tom

[Mod_Gemini]

Know before you start your turn what model's attack/damage rolls are going to be important to your battle plan and make sure you get that stuff done first (if possible, depending on how you need to activate, etc.). If you've got half a unit of models that's just going to try to get some extra casualties, hold off on those just in case you don't have time. You'd rather have gotten your key strategic attacks done before doing stuff that may or may not matter.

Also, with large model count lists, I find you only have to worry about lots of moves/attacks/etc. on Turn 2 or 3. Turn 1 is usually running into position. After the armies collide, there's a good chance you're going to lose a lot of models anyways and that list will become much easier to manage, so pretty much know that you're going to need your extension for that turn. I find when I run my extremely high model count lists (like Vindictus) that a good 1/3 of my models are dead by the end of Turn 2 or 3, and suddenly it's really easy to move all of my models in the time limit.

[Not Dice]

My old Hardcore thread: http://old.privateerpressforums.com/...howtopic=84574

Though the OP is talking about Steamroller, these are good time-saving tips for any format.

[Uratoh]

Well, practice has helped, also I got rid of my AoE-spam unit and upgraded the one jack I have, I can work things a lot faster without having to fire/deviate tons of AoEs every turn just in case >_<