"They will starve while the beasts eat"?

[Darkness is Rising]

I was reading FoH:Legion of Everblight, and on page 21 something made me go "huh?". Apparently, in Lylyth's scout forces, if there is insufficient game then the Striders get to starve while they feed the warbeasts. I don't get this. At all. Warbeasts are infinitly more expendable than blighted Nyss to the Legion, especially Striders. Why on earth would you sacrifice something that takes years to create for the sake of something that takes a few weeks maximum?

[Necra-Chi]

Because maybe they starve but don't die?

And Everblight has perfected a way to grow new nyss very quickly recently too.

I'm more interested in why the dragonspawn need to feed at all. My understanding is that while they are ravenous all the time, they only need to feed to get up to their "adult" weight and then don't actually need food for sustanence after that.

[fatetwister64]

This actually came up in the Trollbloods book as well.

Gunnbejorn had his trolls give up their rations to keep the Dire Troll from eating anything in sight. Maybe Lyllith knows that hungry Nyss are at worst upset, but hungry Dragonspawn will just eat some Nyss.

[Darkness is Rising]

Because maybe they starve but don't die?

And Everblight has perfected a way to grow new nyss very quickly recently too.

I'm more interested in why the dragonspawn need to feed at all. My understanding is that while they are ravenous all the time, they only need to feed to get up to their "adult" weight and then don't actually need food for sustanence after that.

Starvation lowers battle performance.

Nyss still take months to germinate in their mothers' wombs, and years to grow to maturity..

Evidently not, as they clearly need to eat. My own understanding is that they normally need to eat like regular critters, but shut down into their "dormant" mode when not needed. The book describes this state as not requiring very much. So I'd guess they normally need to eat, but can enter a state in which they don't. like how your computer doesn't need electricity when it's turned off.

[PG_Alviaran]

Because maybe they starve but don't die?

And Everblight has perfected a way to grow new nyss very quickly recently too.

I'm more interested in why the dragonspawn need to feed at all. My understanding is that while they are ravenous all the time, they only need to feed to get up to their "adult" weight and then don't actually need food for sustanence after that.

I don't think so. I don't think there has been anything to suggest they don't eat really. Any idea where that was?

They probably only eat ravenously until their full weight. It's probably that they don't HAVE to eat in that given the ties to the warlock, they can be forced to starve for a while. Still not a good outcome, but unlike another beast that will get seriously unruly at starving, these ones can endure because they are told to endure.

Also, the beasts are the backbone of the Legion's strength. And a warlock has to bleed to create them. They probably don't want to have to go through that to replace their beasts rather than grow their strength. Losing so many at the Castle of the Keys was acceptable only because of what they obtained.

[Lanz]

Dragonspawn probably have to feed to heal and regain their strength after combat. I don't think the Dragonspawn have been considered to 'not need food', so much as they can just go into these states of hybernation where they don't need to eat. Active Dragonspawn probably do need food. Maybe not as much as a normal animal of their size, but enough.

That aside, Striders are probably very capible of going long times without food just because of the role they play in the legion. They are thin, wiry vanguard scouts, whose normal livestyle probably forces them to adapt to not eating very often because they can't just sit down, pull out a backpack and start munching on something.

Also, Exsanguination of a warlock to create a heavy warbeast is very taxing on the warlock. The worst thing a warlock can do is be in that state out in the field with no support. What good are those warbeasts when the warlock is too weak to control them? It's too great a risk. I seem to recall the legion book confirming as much, too, that Warlocks rarely generate large dragonspawn while out on missions, and prefer to set up temporary bases for that purpose.

It could also be a superiority-complex thing of Everblight, in that his dragonspawn are superior beings to lowly Nyss grunts and have a higher priority.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

I don't think so. I don't think there has been anything to suggest they don't eat really. Any idea where that was?

Just so happened I was reading Monsternomicon 2 at work. Apparently Teraphs don't breathe, need to eat, or anything. I will look into reading what the other things say, but I would assume they're all the same.

So, this confuses me why they would make them feed at all if they have no need to eat. Or is this a retcon?

[Lanz]

In any case, the beasts are certainly not expendable compared to the Nyss. DiR is failing to take into account that there are less than a dozen warlocks in the entire legion, who have to use all their energy to create a single heavy warbeast, versus hundreds of Nyss for whom if even a third of their population are female can still create Nyss much more reliably. Legion warlocks generally can't just sit there and mass-produce warbeasts all the time. They need to regain their vitality afterwards, and the beast needs excessive food supplies after its born, so it's neither a cheap nor easy process.

[Darkness is Rising]

In any case, the beasts are certainly not expendable compared to the Nyss. DiR is failing to take into account that there are less than a dozen warlocks in the entire legion, who have to use all their energy to create a single heavy warbeast, versus hundreds of Nyss for whom if even a third of their population are female can still create Nyss much more reliably. Legion warlocks generally can't just sit there and mass-produce warbeasts all the time. They need to regain their vitality afterwards, and the beast needs excessive food supplies after its born, so it's neither a cheap nor easy process.

Oh? Then why did the LoE deliberately keep the Nyss back at the Castle of the Keys while sending the beasts forward? Doug mentioned specifically in the LoE episode of Guts and Gears that they were deliberately trying to preserve Nyss lives at the expense of their beasts, because the beasts take much less time to produce. Furthermore, they can just sit around and produce beasts. After all, that's what Abby was doing while the cool kids were down south killing a dragon.

[Mod_Faultie]

Obviously the situation was such that Lylyth felt the beasts should feed and the Striders should go hungry. Had any of us been in command, it's hard to say we wouldn't have done the same thing.
Whenever I'm leading my dragonspawn, I usually let them eat first.

[Lanz]

Oh? Then why did the LoE deliberately keep the Nyss back at the Castle of the Keys while sending the beasts forward? Doug mentioned specifically in the LoE episode of Guts and Gears that they were deliberately trying to preserve Nyss lives at the expense of their beasts, because the beasts take much less time to produce. Furthermore, they can just sit around and produce beasts. After all, that's what Abby was doing while the cool kids were down south killing a dragon.

Because Nyss can go extinct? So long as the warlocks live, the Dragonspawn can always be replenished, but if the Nyss species is wiped out, then it's pretty much gone. There's a huge gap between feeding priority amidst a small scouting force, versus mass open warefare that could decimate the Nyss population in one go.

And Absylonia is one warlock. If she could produce beasts fast enough to compare with Nyss breeding, a 35pt legion list would have 20 Carniveans in it. They can't take all their warlocks and produce beasts, so that's 1 person in the entire legion doing it, versus however many females there are in the blighted nyss population.

[Darkness is Rising]

Because Nyss can go extinct? So long as the warlocks live, the Dragonspawn can always be replenished, but if the Nyss species is wiped out, then it's pretty much gone. There's a huge gap between feeding priority amidst a small scouting force, versus mass open warefare that could decimate the Nyss population in one go.

They didn't bring along the entire Legion for that battle. At the very least, half of the warlocks (Vayl, Abby, Bethayne) stayed up north. They just value Nyss lives more, because beasts can be produced much faster and grow to maturity at a rapid pace.

And Absylonia is one warlock. If she could produce beasts fast enough to compare with Nyss breeding, a 35pt legion list would have 20 Carniveans in it. They can't take all their warlocks and produce beasts, so that's 1 person in the entire legion doing it, versus however many females there are in the blighted nyss population.

You underestimate their rate of production. Abby, on her lonesome, created enough beasts in-between the Legion leaving and returning to replenish "almost half" of the beasts lost at the Castle of the Keys.

[Brandubh]

Obviously the situation was such that Lylyth felt the beasts should feed and the Striders should go hungry. Had any of us been in command, it's hard to say we wouldn't have done the same thing.
Whenever I'm leading my dragonspawn, I usually let them eat first.

The tactical advantage to keeping the beasts alive could be as simple as keeping Lylyth alive through transfers and fueling fury needs. Ultimately, the most valuable member of Lylyth's party was Lylyth herself or, rather, her athanc. Protecting that is her #1 priority.

[Invaderzahn]

Someone light the Doug Signal!

[CrookyKnows]

Everblight doesn't care about elf people.

[Thamarite Merc]

Why on earth would you sacrifice something that takes years to create for the sake of something that takes a few weeks maximum?

That is not a sacrifice, but a disciplinary measure. Underfed Blighted are angry Blighted!

Plus, I don't think Everblight is interested in farming Nyss, he is more focused on farming Blighted from whatever species. If Nyss go extinct before the generation regenerates, he will go looking for other tools.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Whenever I'm leading my dragonspawn, I usually let them eat first.

Same. I can't remember the last time I didn't let my Dragonspawn eat first.

-s&s

[MeniteTom]

The problem is that we're looking at two VERY different scenarios. In the case OP mentioned, we're looking at a scouting interdiction. In this scenario, beasts are NOT expendable. Thus, keeping them fed and alive is a top priority. In an open war scenario, the beasts ARE expendable with respect to the Nyss, as given time the losses of dragonspawn can be completely ameliorated.

[CeltKhan]

They didn't bring along the entire Legion for that battle. At the very least, half of the warlocks (Vayl, Abby, Bethayne) stayed up north. They just value Nyss lives more, because beasts can be produced much faster and grow to maturity at a rapid pace.

We don't actually know where Beth was during the battle; I don't remember anything in FoH: LoE saying anything about it. For all we know, she was sharded after Pyro got eateded. And I know Vayl was with the assault force; her and Saeryn had to bleed off excess blight from Thags while Everblight assimilated Pyro. The only warlock that was specifically stated as staying behind was Abby, specifically because she could make good the losses in spawn.

Tl;dr version: your primary assumption is flawed.

[Cadian Munkey]

As far as beasts eating go, iirc they don't need to eat in the same way people will or else we'll die of starvation, it's more that their combat effectiveness decreases greatly as does I imagine the warlocks control over them (aka threshold?). & I doubt the striders would shrivel up & keel over seeing as they are based upon NOMADIC HUNTERS who are most probably perfectly capable of hunting if the need arose.

-Munkey

[infamousd]

That and if worse comes to worse you can feed the beasts to the Nyss, instead of the beasts just eating the nyss as much as they please. Unless dragonspawn flesh is posionous.

[The Beast of Caer Banogh]

Yes, in this case I don't think it makes sense to interpret 'starve' as 'die' but rather just go hungry for a while. But Striders ARE far-ranging woodsy types after all, so they can hunt.

Also: I actually like to think of Everblight as sort of looking out for the Nyss, after a fashion - I'm sure at some level he considers them all expendable, but on some other level, they are, to an extent, his people and his flock. It rounds out the character a bit to have him be pseudo-caring as well as evil.

[Lanz]

Yes, in this case I don't think it makes sense to interpret 'starve' as 'die' but rather just go hungry for a while. But Striders ARE far-ranging woodsy types after all, so they can hunt.

Also: I actually like to think of Everblight as sort of looking out for the Nyss, after a fashion - I'm sure at some level he considers them all expendable, but on some other level, they are, to an extent, his people and his flock. It rounds out the character a bit to have him be pseudo-caring as well as evil.

I don't think 'caring' is in a dragon's vocabulary. I do, however, think Everblight's pragmatic enough that they're of value to him, and are reliable, loyal servants.

[The Beast of Caer Banogh]

Caring isn't the right word, yes. But maybe for him, his ego makes him watch out for them - they are his people, and what sort of god lets his people die without cause? I'm not really articulating myself well.

Basically, I'd like to see an Everblight that doesn't care for his flock because caring for one's flock is the morally correct choice for a god - no, he cares for his flock because it demonstrates his godhood to do so.

[Lanz]

Well, we know what a dragon not caring about his flock looks like. That's Cryx. So by that contrast, I suppose Everblight does care a fair bit about the wellbeing of his followers.

[jandrese]

For what its worth, the Teraph entry in the Monsternomicon (Vol 2) does specifically state that they don't need to Eat, Drink, or even Breathe. They are also not completely dormant in this state, as apparently they'll sense vibration (walking) nearby and spring an ambush when something wanders too close.

It should be pointed out however that the Carnivean section talks about what happens when you are eaten (you can attempt to climb or cut your way out), so there is at least something like a GI tract on it (one wonders about the Shredders and Harriers).

It seems likely to me that the beasts don't need to eat for the traditional reasons, but they do need mass of some sort to repair wounds and to grow. Still, that would mean a fully grown beast that has not seen combat should only need small amounts of food and could likely go without for quite some time. Why they would need to be fed first is a bit of a mystery.

[PG_Draxos]

Lets see, let the whiny Nyss go hungry who understand that you are an extention of thier god and wont act up or dont feed the DragonSpawn who while they wont eat you have no problem eating the Nyss...

That said since DragonSpawn only need food to grow and regenerate i can understand your question so lets use the Seacat Conch (no posting till doug is here) WAAAWHOOOOO!!!!

[DemonCalibre]

I believe Dragon Spawn Shrink(no lie) when they do not get food.

They don't die, but they become weak, and lose body mass. I believe it was mentioned in the Carnivian Guts and Gears.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

Tl;dr version: your primary assumption is flawed.

DiR's primary assumption is usually "I know better/am smarter than Privateer Press," so... yeah. Flawed.

[Junn Khan]

Oh? Then why did the LoE deliberately keep the Nyss back at the Castle of the Keys while sending the beasts forward? Doug mentioned specifically in the LoE episode of Guts and Gears that they were deliberately trying to preserve Nyss lives at the expense of their beasts, because the beasts take much less time to produce. Furthermore, they can just sit around and produce beasts. After all, that's what Abby was doing while the cool kids were down south killing a dragon.

I'm going with just a general inconstancy and change in policy. At the time I remember complaining about the Skorne getting their trash kicked while Legion won the day. Doug came in and said that Legion suffered horrendous losses in both beasts and Nyss and wouldn't recover anytime soon. I imagine that soon after PP realized that having a faction handicapped by a massive loss in numbers and retconned Everblight's ability to metaphorically spring an army from his breeches.

In support of the argument though it would be like letting your knights go hungry so their horses can feed. Both are important but sometimes you want a horse at full strength and people or elves can deal with it. Or magic. Either one.

[Darkness is Rising]

DiR's primary assumption is usually "I know better/am smarter than Privateer Press," so... yeah. Flawed.

Ummm... not really. I'm just an inquisitive person who happens to think about stuff I read and watch alot. My family doesn't like watching movies with me because I can't help but point out logical flaws/things the heroes/villains could do to win instantly.

[blitzmonkey]

Easy:

Warbeasts are more valuable. Nyss are expendable. Not to mention, but Lylyth is way far away from reinforcements in terms of beasts, so assuming that Abby could just whip up some replacements is a bit flawed. It would take a while to get to her. If all of her beasts died/were weak but she had striders, she would be in trouble if she had to xfer damage. If the reverse, she would be fine. It is purely a survival thing.

[infamousd]

Actually it only makes sense to send the Dragonspawn after Pyromalfic in first, not the Nyss. Dragonspawn, while diffcult to make and costly to make (You try bleeding out a Carnie and tell me its easy) stand a better chance of not dying to Pyromalfic's blight and fighting him in close quarters.

Also the complete reference is "IF there is insufficient game to be found, they will starve while the beasts eat." probably more "incentive" then anything nefarious as letting a whole 120 men die to starvation. plus there is a total of like what, twenty light and thin beasts, not like they eat a whole lot all the time. The whole article speaks more to her policy then a policy within the legion itself.

As for Dragonspawn not eating, I'm trying to find evidence supporting what might have just been an oversight, but all i can find so far is that Teraph's don't need to eat, probably a specific type of digestive system, more then a rule of thumb.

[Lanz]

I don't think Harriers eat either. Or at least they don't need to eat for long periods in order to be active. Their fluff describes that they can stay in the air for a long time without fatigue(doesn't mention eating, but in the context it would seem they don't eat either).

By contrast, Shredders are absolutely ravenous, and eat whatever they can.

So perhaps it's entirely dependent on the beasts? After all, Everblight focuses so heavily on perfection of evolution, why would it be beyond his scope of abilities to have dragonspawn so exactly-tailored to their task that even their internal organs are specific to their role?

[PPS_Dougseacat]

You guys are really over extrapolating a single line speaking about how Lylyth's far-ranging scouting force sometimes operates to the entire Legion of Everblight. This is not an "inconsistency" or a "change in policy" either. The section referenced is a detailed description of how a single specific group inside the Legion operates.

Yes, by and large Nyss are harder to replace than warbeasts and so the Legion will generally allow warbeasts to take the fall instead of Nyss in many circumstances. The attack on the Castle of the Keys was a prime example. However, this is speaking about how supplies are handled for Lylyth's force when operating in lean regions. In this case we are not talking about striders starving to death, but going hungry to keep the beasts at top fighting trim. Dragonspawn do in fact require food to maintain their proper bulk and to stay at peak fighting shape. They can endure going without food for extended periods of time, perhaps indefinitely, given a low activity state and being willing to sacrifice bulk. Their overall intake of food is less than similar living creatures of the same size, and food is apparently more about maintaining body mass than survival. Teraphs in particular can hibernate extremely long as their specific function was to serve as immobile sentries and guardians.

In both cases, with blighted Nyss as well as dragonspawn, they are not likely to die from starvation in a hurry. But if it's a choice between keeping the dragonspawn in fighting form and letting the striders go hungry for a while, Lylyth will pick to let the striders go hungry. It's also worth bearing in mind striders are exceptional hunters and so I don't think this is really too much of a problem in general. But in the heart of winter, with game scarce, there are choices that have to be made.

In either event we're not talking about "sacrificing" huge numbers of Nyss to keep dragonspawn fed. That isn't really a problem by and large. Particularly so long as the Legion keep fighting enemies and killing them (such as slaughtering entire villages on the outskirts of civilization, as they like to do), there is enough food to keep your beasts well fed and happy. Just ask any troll and they will agree with this approach. For both trolls and dragonspawn, fighting = food creation.

[Necra-Chi]

Thanks a lot for weighing in Doug. That rounds out the fluff quite well I think and makes it quite understandable.

[Cadian Munkey]

Thanks a lot for weighing in Doug. That rounds out the fluff quite well I think and makes it quite understandable.

Yaah, What he said. it's refreshing having incite (hehe ) from the people involved in the lore. Helps keep my imagination in check.

On a side note, imagine the tech from "Paprika" or Inception used on Doug! That'd be a scary world lol. You wouldn't have gunmen coming after you, it'd be Tartarus & Nihalators :-O

-Munkey

[PG_Devilsquid]

Seriously, I'm going to invent the Holo-Deck, and plug Doug's brain into it so I can live in Immoren.

[paradox]

What Doug really meant is that, when meat is scarce, striders are on the menu!

[CallmeGene]

Lol, I always thought that Striders could subsist on low level foraging (roots,tubers, and wood chucks) and the beasts had first dibs on game animals.