Fiction / Art / Tech Question - Gun Nerd

[navajas]

The initial attraction for me to this game was simply the word, "Gunmage". Awesome. I ended up a Merc, not Cygnar, mostly because while the art and fiction of the gunmages was rock on wicked, their models sadly sort of sucked. (New ones look hot though). But my infatuation there DID get me looking at PP depiction of their pistols, and that got me staring at the rest of their firearms.

Almost all PP firearms, regardless of artist, are depicted with the same lock mechanism. It's a sort of tear drop shaped shroud looking thing. From the images and function of the Cyclone and Sentinel we know that metallic cartridges are available, but the Magelock pistols, hand cannons, etc... all appear to be muzzle loaders. This also explains the very slow rate of fire all ranged weapons have. It would make sense that metallic cartridges are rare, and used for more important assets like the 'jacks, than infantry, but that still leaves me wondering what's going on with the firing mechanisms on the majority of IK guns.

They're not matchlocks, wheel locks or flintlocks: I only see any kind hammer at all on a few. The long gunners appear to have a giant lever action revolver (which is really, really cool), and I see paper cartridges on some models, but again, most look like muzzle loaders. The pervasive tear drop lock action thing makes me wonder if somewhere someone thought up what's supposedly going on inside these guns, or, if it was just decided to use them as a easy aesthetic shortcut, and no PP artist nor writer has any idea how guns in general, or those specifically in the IK, actually work. However, PP seems very detail oriented in how their IP is depicted, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a fictional explanation for this tech.

Anyone know? Are there any blueprint type, technical cut away, (Forgeworld / Sourcebook-esque) materials for depictions of these type of things

[MartokTheAvenger]

The RPG has more details, but the gist is you have two alchemical powders, black and red. They're stored in separate bags, because when they're mixed, boom. The hammer mechanism punches through the bags to mix the powders, IIRC.

[navajas]

Ok, cool. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm after. Does it say anything about the mechanism though? Is that tear drop thing supposed to BE the hammer? Is it a shroud OVER the hammer? If the two powders need to be mixed, how do you get them down the muzzle without doing so?

Thanks for the response!

[MartokTheAvenger]

I'm not sure about the actual mechanism, but the powders are kept in separate bags. For the muzzle loader types, you slide the bags then the bullet down the barrel.

[Lanz]

I was always under the impression that the tear-drop shaped metal piece above the chamber on all the guns was just some sort of counterweight for recoil.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

Most of these pistols and other weapons have a hinged mechanism at the stock which opens to allow the cartridge (usually silk or paper-wrapped, since metal cartridges are still rare and reserved for specialized weapons) to be inserted into the breach. The knob you see is usually the mechanism and handle used to unlock and open the breach, then close and lock it again.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Most of this information is from the Iron Kingdoms Character guide. In it, and its companion, the Iron Kingdom's World Guide, you will find a lot of information on the technologies at use the iron kingdoms.

First, you will not see any sort of lock mechanism on Iron kingdoms firearms. No wheel lock, flintlock, matchlock, or percussion cap. This is because firearms do not use standard black powder, but rather an alchemical mix of red and black powder.

The quick facts about Iron Kingdom's guns:
Both red and black powered are inert on their own, but will explode when mixed.

A cartridge consists of a paper wrapped packet of red powder, one of black powder, and a bullet.

Most guns, with the exception of those that have a cylindrical or belt fed magazine, are breach loaders. The teardrop shaped thing on top of the gun is the breach lock.

The method of firing the bullet is called a pin lock. In this system the trigger activates a pin which pierces the packets of red and black powder causing them to mix and explode.

Other locks exist, but all are based on this principle of mixing the powders.

[navajas]

This is exactly what I'm after. So cool. Thanks especially to Doug and Red. I'm still a little iffy on exactly how these paper cartridges keep the powders separate but are able to then be pierced and reliably mixed by a single pin, but, it's far and away enough for a fictional setting. The tear drop breech lock is such a great idea, I can even imagine the mechanism working. If all you're doing is poking a hole in a paper cartridge you wouldn't need a very beefy firing mechanism which explains the lack of prominent hammer.

This all sounds like a horribly dangerous technology to be carrying around on your person, by the way. Is there fiction regarding this? I mean, hell, you hit the dirt with a bunch of these paper cartridges strapped to your chest and you might go up like a Pop-It. Heh.

It sounds like I might be interested in these books. Isn't that game out of print / unsupported now though? Is there one book over another I'd be better off getting since I have no real interest in the actual game over the fiction?

[mikethefish]

Actually Redphantasm, by far the best guide on IK firearms is the Lock n Load book, since they actually have drawn diagrams of how the guns work. And actually pin locks are a bit outdated - the current modern way of doing it is called a "Forge Lock". It's because inside the bullet package, there are the two containers of powders like you mentioned. But apparently there is also a tiny clay disk that seperates the two powder packets and keeps them apart. When the pin shoots through the two packets to mix the powders, it also shatters the little clay disk. Gun makers liken the pin striking the disk action to a hammer striking a forge, hence the name "forge lock".

[mikethefish]

This is exactly what I'm after. So cool. Thanks especially to Doug and Red. I'm still a little iffy on exactly how these paper cartridges keep the powders separate but are able to then be pierced and reliably mixed by a single pin,

Say you set a bullet on the table, and looked at the interior components. From left to right, they would look like: a bullet, a tiny industrial silk packet of black powder, a clay disk, and another tiny industrial silk packet of red powder. And then the whole business is wrapped up in a packet of paper or sometimes crude silk

[Lanz]

This is exactly what I'm after. So cool. Thanks especially to Doug and Red. I'm still a little iffy on exactly how these paper cartridges keep the powders separate but are able to then be pierced and reliably mixed by a single pin, but, it's far and away enough for a fictional setting. The tear drop breech lock is such a great idea, I can even imagine the mechanism working. If all you're doing is poking a hole in a paper cartridge you wouldn't need a very beefy firing mechanism which explains the lack of prominent hammer.

This all sounds like a horribly dangerous technology to be carrying around on your person, by the way. Is there fiction regarding this? I mean, hell, you hit the dirt with a bunch of these paper cartridges strapped to your chest and you might go up like a Pop-It. Heh.

It sounds like I might be interested in these books. Isn't that game out of print / unsupported now though? Is there one book over another I'd be better off getting since I have no real interest in the actual game over the fiction?

I suspect they don't keep both powders in the same pocket.

[yastobaal]

You can also mix the powders in different quantities and get some different effects. I can't remember which had the greater amount red or black but in the Mercenary FoW book MacBain created a whole load of smoke using this imbalance.

[navajas]

I suspect they don't keep both powders in the same pocket.

Yes, that's exactly what we're talking about. These are pre-mixed paper/silk cartridges, like early Sharps rifles, not just sacks of powder.

However, this ceramic disc Mike is describing may help you keep from blowing a hole in your chest. Again, at least enough for fiction's sake which is what we're discussing. Besides, outside of a barrel the reaction between the two powders might not be very impressive. Gun powder, and especially black powder, just fizzles a bit. It's only in the confined space of a barrel you get a useful explosion.

Still wouldn't want my ammo popping on my belt because a ceramic disc took a crack when I took cover behind a wall or something though.

Also, thanks for the head's up on Lock n' Load. That really is probably precisely what I want.

@yastobaal: That would make all kinds of sense.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

The ammunition is usually prepackaged (both powders, each in their own wrappings, together with the bullet). It is indeed somewhat dangerous, but less than you might think. Silk is the preferred wrapping over paper and is more common with military grade ammunition, and since each of the two powders is entirely wrapped, they stay contained reliably. It's important to bear in mind the actual explosive potential of a given cartridge is not very much. Without being contained within a firearm breach even if a cartridge mixes and explodes it won't necessarily cause an injury. (In the RPG this was exaggerated a bit to add an element of risk for people without the proper skills interfering with or trying to disassemble ammunition.) Individual cartridges with their small discrete packets of powder are probably actually less dangerous than larger stores of the ammunition, by and large. Although a cartridge mixing accidentally would represent a fire hazard.

[kaneblaise]

I suspect they don't keep both powders in the same pocket.

The powders are in the same cartridge, they aren't inserted into the barrel separately.

edit: double ninja'ed....

[mikethefish]

Also, thanks for the head's up on Lock n' Load. That really is probably precisely what I want.

Just so you know, it's not this huge in-depth diagram of the gun mechanism. It's just a few tiny little diagrams showing how the Breach system worked, if I recall, plus a fairly cool article on the workings of IK firearms. The Lock and Load book was the first ever IK game supplement that was made that didn't have it's material shoehorned into the Witchfire trilogy game books, so I think the writers wanted the players to have a good understanding of guns because they are one of the major differences between this setting and that of your normal high fantasy

The little booklet was fairly tiny as game books go, but I THINK they go for a truckload of money of Ebay, just because of their rarity

[PG_Askew37]

You can also mix the powders in different quantities and get some different effects. I can't remember which had the greater amount red or black but in the Mercenary FoW book MacBain created a whole load of smoke using this imbalance.

I believe the red powder is both more volatile and rarer, so most powder packets are mostly black powder and a little red. I believe MacBain reduced the red content even further to make it burn slowly and smoke.

[FranzGrenstein]

Excellent topic.

It is worth a note, that Iosian powder is completly diffrent from the red/black standard of the IK.

Question, is the red/black mix an explosion or a high speed burn?

[navajas]

@mike: Bummer about the book / cost.

@Franz: Thanks. My guess, given what I surmised and what Doug confirmed, at least for its firearm applications (since at the end of the day it seems to behave like blackpowder), it's probably just an aggressive burn. Given what folks immediately above said, sounds like you can add more red for more boom.

Can anyone comment on the relative power behind this material when compared to black powder? I get the sense it's roughly equal or less. Given it's game effect I don't see it being any more powerful without magic augmentation.

[guspm]

as far as cartridges on your person getting wrecked and exploding, as long as you didn't contain it too much you would just be burnt. Even modern ammunition with smokesless powder is relatively low danger when detonating outside of a breach. The movies will show it punching scenes of holes being punched through walls or vehicles in a burning ammo dump but normally there is just an explosion and some light shrapnel.

[PG_Askew37]

@mike: Bummer about the book / cost.

@Franz: Thanks. My guess, given what I surmised and what Doug confirmed, at least for its firearm applications (since at the end of the day it seems to behave like blackpowder), it's probably just an aggressive burn. Given what folks immediately above said, sounds like you can add more red for more boom.

Can anyone comment on the relative power behind this material when compared to black powder? I get the sense it's roughly equal or less. Given it's game effect I don't see it being any more powerful without magic augmentation.

In the IK RPG, the powder was infact a magical item. I believe the enchanting process was a trade secret of the Golden Crucible before the invasion of Llael. As far as whether it's explosive or a fast burn, I think that matters more on whether or not the powder is confined when it reacts, much like real gun powder.

[mikethefish]

Right - I remember that a Dispel Magic spell would actually make a gun not fire. You had to be a 5th level arcane caster to make the stuff.

[FranzGrenstein]

From one gun nerd to an other you are welcome.

So the next question is the residue corosive, how often does the shooter have to clean after shooting?

[navajas]

That's probably the first bit of this fiction I've learned that I don't care for much. I prefer the setting to have real tech that is influenced and aided by magic, not wholly created by it. I understand this is personal preference. So I'll imagine one of two things; A) that I never found it out, or; B) Since magic in this setting has supplanted the need for much of science, people in this world erroneously assign magical attributes as a matter of course where they might not be a matter of fact. ;-)

After all, black powder was "magic" as well.

[navajas]

From one gun nerd to an other you are welcome.

So the next question is the residue corosive, how often does the shooter have to clean after shooting?

HAHAHA! That's one of the FIRST things I thought of when I learned of the two powders, but figured, "Ah hell, that's probably too mundane a question for this board." If there's magic involved I hope it cleans my barrel for me.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

The only magic involved in the powder is that it is produced by alchemy, which is a mild chemical shortcut. Alchemy assists industry and mechanika in our setting in many ways, allowing for certain augmented mixtures and combinations of materials which would otherwise require more advanced science. It is particularly useful for some of the more sophisticated metallurgy in our setting and paves the way for things like warcaster armor and armor piercing shells.

The blasting powder in our setting leaves a residue that builds up fairly quickly. Ideally a gunman should be cleaning his weapon in a cursory fashion after each shot, when he opens the breach to load the next round. However, in reality I expect most soldiers are less diligent about this, particularly in the middle of combat, aside from clearing the obvious debris from the previous round out of the breach. Residue buildup would also be one of the variable factors that would separate high-quality blasting powder from lower-grade, and since the Order of the Golden Crucible lost its monopoly on commercial grade powder the civilian market is likely a lot more unpredictable.

This would not affect the armies, who make their own powder. With any military grade powder a firearm can endure repeated firing so long as the operator cleans it out periodically. Weapons like repeating long rifles, trencher chain guns, or Caine's revolvers regularly fire quite a few rounds before those operating them worry about residue. But any amount of residue increases the risk of misfire. This is one reason that multi-barrel weapons have some functional advantages over single-barrel for repeating weapons despite their weight. (A chain gun is less likely to misfire during a given span of time than a slugger, and the same would be true for a quad-barrel pistol.) Long gunner training probably recommends the weapon getting a quick cleaning with an extended wire brush each time you replace the ammunition wheel, but in actual battle I'd expect they can safely get through three or four wheels before worrying about a significant chance of a misfires.

[FranzGrenstein]

Is the round fired a standard lead projectile? Is it a ball, or like the minie ball of 1800's? How do operators deal with leading of the rifling do they use a solvent or an other means?

EDIT:
Yes, I fully accept and encourage my inner Gun Nerd.

[quindraco]

It seems to me you'd get a much more optimal powder mix if you alternated packets more than once (most obvious with large bore guns, so the packets are large enough to make a difference). Rather than BRS, where B is black powder, R is red powder, and S is slug, you could use smaller packets: bRbS. This would give much more reactive surface area without requiring additional volume for the powder.

[Alex C]

I've been asking these questions for over a year now. Glad to see them finally answered. Thanks Doug.

[navajas]

It seems to me you'd get a much more optimal powder mix if you alternated packets more than once (most obvious with large bore guns, so the packets are large enough to make a difference). Rather than BRS, where B is black powder, R is red powder, and S is slug, you could use smaller packets: bRbS. This would give much more reactive surface area without requiring additional volume for the powder.

Yeah, I'd be worried with a simple pin hole that enough of a mix occurred for a reliable reaction. In fact, since the pin is likely just going one direction, it seems quite likely it would plug its own hole preventing ignition.

What I might do is load the pin (which would be a more like a tiny barbed broad head arrow) with a reciprocal spring, so, when the hammer came down it would shoot forward piercing the silk and snapping the plate, but then also tearing and mixing the packet on the way back home. In fact, you could put that sort of "pin" on a rotating cam so that it gave a quarter turn on the way in and the way back completely shredding the cartridge. I think that would go a long way towards ensuring a reliably explosive mix.

Of course this method would be another moving part, especially if you went the rotating pin route.

[Warlordtheft]

Long gunner training probably recommends the weapon getting a quick cleaning with an extended wire brush each time you replace the ammunition wheel, but in actual battle I'd expect they can safely get through three or four wheels before worrying about a significant chance of a misfires.

Side note as someone who on occasion has shot black powder (ok pyrodex--but black powder is worse for fouling). This failure rate is very similar with U.S. civil war era revolvers. After going through 5 cylinders in an 1860 Remington at the firing range, the gun started locking-up due to the build up of residue in the mechanisms. Cleaning in the field was not an option-it needed to be dissassmbled and cleaned. The residue gets into everything.


BTW-Off topic, how many rounds of ammo does a typical rifleman carry in the IK? I am assuming mercs either scavenge theiers or get it from their employers as part of their contract. At 1 gold piece a shot, it is expensive (iirc that cost).

[FranzGrenstein]

One gold a shot!!! Wow a single war would get into the trillions.

And that is just ammo cost not counting R&D, mass production, and training of new weapon systems.

[Alex C]

After going through 5 cylinders in an 1860 Remington at the firing range, the gun started locking-up due to the build up of residue in the mechanisms.

My 1860 Colt replica is similar. I use Triple Seven powder and even with that (the cleanest BP substitute available to my knowledge) I can feel things starting to gum up around the 4-5 reloads mark. Thankfully it's extremely simple to take down and clean, though I certainly wouldn't want to do it in combat!

[PPS_Dougseacat]

Ammunition costs are really highly variable, particularly in the current climate. Even in the civilian sector costs have come down considerably since the breakup of the Order of the Golden Crucible monopoly, but none of those costs truly apply to any of the military forces in the setting, which have their own production. Even in the mercenary sector there are considerable discounts for bulk purchases. Several of the larger outfits (like the Steelheads) would have some ammunition production capacity at their larger outfits by keeping alchemists on the payroll (either one accredited by one or another branch of the now divided OGC, or an independent). Ammunition is still not something to be wasted frivolously, but its cost would be factored into the compensation offered for any specific mercenary contract, just like other operational costs like food and wages.

[MartokTheAvenger]

One gold a shot!!! Wow a single war would get into the trillions.

And that is just ammo cost not R&D, development and mass production of new weapon systems.

That is the common man price though, if I remember right. The governments more than likely have deals in place with the Golden Crucible to get their ammo cheaper. Otherwise, nobody would use chain guns.

[FranzGrenstein]

Even at a 50% bulk discount, that is a huge sum. That being said who is supplying khador and every one else; golden crucible must have enought finances to fund 15 armies. Sorry about all the questions, but I only have the monsternomicons.

[Warlordtheft]

My 1860 Colt replica is similar. I use Triple Seven powder and even with that (the cleanest BP substitute available to my knowledge) I can feel things starting to gum up around the 4-5 reloads mark. Thankfully it's extremely simple to take down and clean, though I certainly wouldn't want to do it in combat!

I had a colt, but replaced it with the remington. The caps falling into the hammer mechanism was a sore point. I'm using the pyrodex pellets now, which isn't too bad.

Back on topic:How many rounds does caine's revolver hold? Six, seven or Eight shots?

[Alex C]

Back on topic:How many rounds does caine's revolver hold? Six, seven or Eight shots?

Judging by the artwork and model pictures (don't have any of the models myself) his revolvers appear to be six-shooters.

Going by the Epic artwork they also appear to auto-eject spent casings. Perhaps it operates along the lines of the Mateba or Webley-Fosbery semi-auto revolvers but uses the blowback action to work an ejector that throws spent rounds out of a loading gate.

[PPS_Dougseacat]

Remember, the Order of the Golden Crucible is a commercial civilian organization, not a military one. Even when they had a more firm monopoly on commercial blasting powder the major armies had their own alchemists and production capability. Cygnar and Khador make ammunition not by buying it from the OGC or anyone else, but by gathering the raw materials and creating it with their own alchemists. In an NQM article several years ago we indicated that the cost of ammunition even in the commercial sector had dropped dramatically, to as low as 10% of its former price in some cases (1 silver v. 1 gold) as a result of breaking the monopoly of the OGC. The amount they were charging was rather outrageous and has plunged as a result of competition from their own splinter-groups as well as independents who have cropped up in the market. But either way, the selling price of ammunition in the commercial market really has little to do with the cost for kingdom armies, even in cases where a national army is buying from them to cover shortages. Ord is the only major nation that makes any significant use of the OGC for military needs, and even in that case there may have been special arrangements and long term contracts as a result of the largest of the splinter groups relocating to that kingdom. In that case, the OGC is still not employed for bulk ammunition production, but for more specialized alchemical and munitions projects.