We can haz Slaughterhouser Spoilers?

[Mod_Faultie]

Not really a fan. I will pick up one unit and see how they fare, but I was really hoping for a unit with an extra attack to make good use of Carver's feat.

I'm afraid that the 1" move w/ Carver's feat will basically stay Carver&warbeasts only for the foreseeable future.

[dboeren]

Anyone who's got them - what's their CMD?

[ozmo]

PP may need to bite the bullet and start giving units a Merc/Minion cost and +1 if bought by other factions.
That way the can comellingly price them for mercs and minions without overpowering faction specific units.

Are they a bad unit? no they are not.
Are they expensive for what you get? I would argue yes, compare to Fennblades. Fennblades with UA cost 1 more, have an extra body, 3" more threat range etc.
Do they get the common fixed unit bonus to costs, ala doom reavers, knighet exemplars etc? No. They might not be better than Trollkin Scouts which cost 5.
At 5 pts I'd be pretty happy with them, at 6 they lack parity.

[PG_relasine]

DEF 12, ARM 15? Protecting that unit is going to take hard work...

That aside, they bring some much-needed melee threat and accuracy. I was hoping for a bit more in terms of synergy, but we still have other things to see...

[dboeren]

For all we know, there might be a Slaughterhouser UA or solo in the book too...

[Sevwall]

Or a bunch of ranking officers to make them good for other factions .

[PG_Devilsquid]

Pssh, it's a unit designed to go with Saxon Orric. If they need pathfinder to charge something? Done. If they need something injured to hurt it? *BANG* Done.

I'm glad more people don't like them. Means it'll be easier for me to get my two units.

[zee]

I think theyve got some ok synergy with Gun Boars. Gun Boars offer a high str ranged attack which is able to wound even the most heavily armoured models out there giving some pretty decent power to those charging Slaughterhousers.

I share these thoughts, their rule syncs well with high POW and/or boostable ranged attacks, and the Farrow do have options for that. And at MAT 8 on the charge, they are some of the most accurate-hitting infantry in the game, good for taking care of opposing infantry.

To me, the points cost is a solid versatility tax with a little bit of Minion tax thrown in on top : )

[dboeren]

DEF 12, ARM 15? Protecting that unit is going to take hard work...

Now that part I do agree with somewhat, they're going to be targets for faster lighter units and ranged units, although Tough will help a little. We don't (yet) have a cheap screening unit on the order of Temple Flamehogs or whatever to block LOS and charges to them so you're going to rely on something else being a more immediate threat, running them second line, etc... Alternately, you can move their counter-units higher up in your own priority list and concentrate your own ranged fire on them early in the game.

Pssh, it's a unit designed to go with Saxon Orric. If they need pathfinder to charge something? Done. If they need something injured to hurt it? *BANG* Done.

Or Alten Ashley for the same job. Or Gunboar. Or Primal Shock. Or Brigands (easier w/ Carver). Or Razorback. We've got a number of ways to ping something which is all we really need to do to make them scary.

[Rynth]

To me, the points cost is a solid versatility tax with a little bit of Minion tax thrown in on top : )

Don't forget Skorne Taskmaster tax as well.

[Nalik]

Minions will always enjoy a tax just like Mercs. Best I can compare them with is Doomreavers both 6 man 6 pts units, but with an obvious disparity in power.

[zee]

Don't forget Skorne Taskmaster tax as well.

Definitely! I was thinking about it all morning, actually! The extra strength seems to help its role as a jack/beast finisher, and by minion-tax, we're talking about spells like Carnivore, bringing them to MAT 10 on the charge, which makes them very effective in killing up to six Winterguard Infantry or Nyss Hunters at a time.

These guys aren't dedicated troop killers or war-noun wreckers, but are capable filling either role.

[eReinholdt]

I don't really like the gator models, and I've been waiting on these guys to finally put my task master to use in my rasheth/skorne lists. So far so good for the points cost.

[Zenassassin]

Assuming they work for Skorne, I'm thrilled. I can use my Taskmaster without the humiliation of being yet another gatormen-hiring snorefest cookie cutter. I'm in!

But yeah, I have been playing Carver and I find myself wanting 3 things: some kind of beast handler/fixer, some kind of scapel to kill annoying support/solos, and something to wreck things less hard than heavies but still too much for Brigands. Now w/ Targ and these guys I am pretty well covered.

And needless to say, they are the final answer to those goddamn Gatormen. Brigands don't cut it and throwing War Hogs at them is playing into their hands if they are halfway decent. Problem solved. They'll be great for carving up Champions too. A moderately small CRA will ding most
things and ideally, I'll be throwing 5 dice to finish it off. Could reliably murder a Champ or Gatorman per Slaughterhouser.

Now I just need a Brigand WA or maybe UA and another warbeast for variety and we can call it done. Oh and of course a Farrow dragoon on a huge filthy armored boar.

[RevolverAdamska]

def 12 arm 15 and Ding in could be very nasty, did they get dig in?

[Zenassassin]

Looks like no, which is a problem, cause you'll need to screen them behind tough, dug-in Brigands, but can't since dug in guys don't block los...

[Neutralyze]

im sure that youll be CRAing with brigands so you wont have to worry about them being dug in with carver.

[dboeren]

I've found that Brigands usually don't remain Dug In for long. They'll start the game that way, and sometimes if they're AD'ed they can stay there a little while, but usually something's going to make them move. Either a threat, or the enemy heading to the other flank, or whatever. Not really worried about losing Dig In too much. The only time it's a big deal is when we're creeping up on enemy ranged units, walking and re-Digging In each turn.

I'd like to try the Slaughterhousers out before passing final judgement but I still think they're going to be useful.

[Cannibalbob]

I think the Slaughterhouser's are going to be useful, but they are not exactly what I was looking for. And honestly, I am tired that with mkII Privateer has continued the merc/minion tax. I preferred the idea of making faction buffs and spells faction specific for the most part - but they broke that mold with a few factions. And those factions tend to be the ones with the most access to mercs/minions. I feel it would have been better to strictly limit the interactions of all the factions with mercs/minions and make the merc/minion units more self-sufficient and good on their own - and then able to be buffed within full merc/minion armies. Oh well. Sadly, I like the models and themes of mercs/minions too much - so I guess I will deal with having units that often tend to work better in other people's armies.

[PG_maxsterling]

As I'm reading it the bonus only applies against injured living models anyway. (or does it work on jacks too?)

Finisher is against damaged models, not just living damaged models.. so it works against undead, constructs, jacks, etc

Also with dig in.. my brigands go hog wild (CRA), move, then dig in again. my brigands stay dug in until they charge or get engaged

so to me not being able to screen the slaughterhousers is a big deal..

[Nalik]

I'd rather that they had Backswing rather than Takedown. Atleast that would of added some more anti single wound use without going overboard. Obviously a second swing at MAT 6 was deemed too good to give to such a small sized unit.

[thebarbalag]

I would've preferred backswing, or cleave, or berserk, for the extra attack, but this is still quite good. I play against a lot of jack and beast-heavy lists, and having more tools, particularly with Arkadius (other than beasts) for dealing with armor is not a bad thing. They have Carver's feat (and granted Fearless), Quagmire and Crippling Grasp to help them out...plus, there's no reason a new Farrow caster couldn't have Carnivore or Parasite (I know, I know - the gators already have them, who cares), or some other kind of buff/debuff too. Combining these guys with the likely abilities for Targ (Ancillary Attack, Medicate, Herding (or something like that)) and I've got what I want for my pigs...that isn't beasts. I need moar beasts!

[Nalik]

I would've preferred backswing, or cleave, or berserk, for the extra attack, but this is still quite good. I play against a lot of jack and beast-heavy lists, and having more tools, particularly with Arkadius (other than beasts) for dealing with armor is not a bad thing. They have Carver's feat (and granted Fearless), Quagmire and Crippling Grasp to help them out...plus, there's no reason a new Farrow caster couldn't have Carnivore or Parasite (I know, I know - the gators already have them, who cares), or some other kind of buff/debuff too. Combining these guys with the likely abilities for Targ (Ancillary Attack, Medicate, Herding (or something like that)) and I've got what I want for my pigs...that isn't beasts. I need moar beasts!

I think the role that they fill is already heavily occupied by Warhogs. Given the units small size and low def/arm and no current way to buff either of these stats, they just don't live up to being a 6 point unit. With Arkadius Warhogs are a point more per model then a unit of Slaughterhousers. It's not that they are bad, they're just not overly impressive. They should of been 5 pts per unit tops for general utility or 4 pts for a major contender for most lists. It's the Minion tax that numbed the unit.

[dboeren]

Finisher is against damaged models, not just living damaged models.. so it works against undead, constructs, jacks, etc

Good to know, thanks. So many Hordes abilities work against living only that I didn't want to make an unwarranted assumption.

In talking about the Slaughterhousers some people have said that they don't need something else that does big damage because they can already kill big stuff with their War Hogs. I think this view may be missing an important point. Slaughterhousers make us no longer dependent on the War Hog for damage dealing. While War Hogs are nice beasts, they have their drawbacks as well. They're quite slow for instance. 7.5" threat range versus 10" on the Slaughterhousers. More importantly, they are a single valuable model. You cannot afford to get them killed easily, where you CAN afford to get a few Slaughterhousers killed. Effects that mess with single models work on War Hogs, don't work as well on Slaughterhousers. I've played a lot of games where I've had to trade a War Hog to kill an enemy heavy - I kill them and then their heavy kills my War Hog. With Slaughterhousers along I might have a better option than making that trade.

I think everyone would rather have Backswing than Takedown, that's sort of obvious, like saying you'd rather have MAT 7 than MAT 6. Of course you would. It's not so much a second swing at MAT 6 that was probably too good, but rather a second swing rolling additional dice for damage. If you're going against a big target it's almost certainly wounded after the first attack, I think we can count that as fairly guaranteed. With Carver's Feat going you've got POW 11 + 4d6 for that "token" second attack they'd be making, that's an average of 25 damage. Crippling Grasp isn't quite as high damage but it's more likely to hit and you can get it every turn unlike a feat. If they didn't have Finisher a second attack would have been more plausible. Point is that with Backswing it only takes a couple of them to take out a heavy on Carver's feat. How many weaponmaster units in the game can make multiple melee attacks on the same target without spending a token or any other conditionals?

[Cannibalbob]

Point is that with Backswing it only takes a couple of them to take out a heavy on Carver's feat. How many weaponmaster units in the game can make multiple melee attacks on the same target without spending a token or any other conditionals?

I would have been fine if they had simply been pow 12-13, no weapon-master, and either backswing or cleave. Sure, they would become weaponmasters on Carver's feat turn - but this is a feat we are talking about. It's not like that is overly amazing anyways. pButcher + doom reavers + feat is much worse.

Honestly, I feel this unit got screwed over mainly due to the interactions with other factions and this hurt its interactions within Thornfall.

[withershadow]

Not so hot for the piglets, but my Circle can certainly find a use for those abilities. WTB ranking officer/taskmaster.

[Nalik]

Point is that with Backswing it only takes a couple of them to take out a heavy on Carver's feat. How many weaponmaster units in the game can make multiple melee attacks on the same target without spending a token or any other conditionals?

Your point is made by your own statements. With Def 12 and Arm 15 how many will actually be left to take out a heavy?

How many weaponmasters are in this game with those same stats and no available buffs or other protections?

It's the whole package that failed, not it's individual parts. Any crappy RAT 5 power 10, 10 man unit will obliterate this unit with average rolls. You need more swings since odds are you will be at less than full strength on an already small unit when it actually gets to melee.

[dboeren]

I'd like to hear actual battle reports proxying the Slaughterhousers. With some luck, I may be able to try them this Thursday if my opponent is OK with that.

Nalik, I'm not following your logic there. All the other factions have a much wider selection of casters compared to Minions. It's pretty much a given that every faction has at least one caster with a defensive buff spell. Congrats, you've just proven that every non-Minion unit in the game can get a buff somewhere somehow. I'm not sure that implies any useful conclusion though, nor does it prove that you're always going to field that particular caster with a buff. We're getting a 3rd caster in the next book. Maybe they've got a nice defensive buff like Defender's Ward. If they do, awesome! But I'll probably only be playing that caster 1/3rd of the time when I'm playing my Farrow so I can't rely on having it.

Any similar unbuffed unit will also be killed if they walk up to a much bigger ranged unit. Knights Exemplar, Errants, Horgenhold, Stormblade (not WM but similar with higher base POW), Doomreavers, whatever. All of them have stats roughly similar to Slaughterhousers. That's why you typically don't do that with them. I'd go even further. Most single wound units will face a bad ending if they move up on ranged troops that outnumber them nearly 2-to-1 without engaging them. It's not a problem specific to Slaughterhousers. Heck, I've had my Brigands wipe out 9/10ths of a Horgenhold unit that walked up in their aiming range, and the next turn we got the last guy - never suffered a loss from them. But it's not because Horgenhold suck (hint, they don't), it's because they were trying to do something they're not supposed to be doing. So don't do that thing. Don't rush the shooty unit if you can't engage them. Use them as a second wave, or send them somewhere else.

Let's get some reports from people that have actually tried them and see how that comes out before deciding that they're junk.

[Cannibalbob]

Are the stats in this weeks No Quarter?

[thag-rush]

They're do out in 2 days, I'm assuming the stats are leaked because some stores have them already. I don't think they're in the NQ are they?

[dboeren]

I'm not really sure. They may be in NQ, or maybe someone has the models and is just looking at the cards.

[Teleologica]

I doubt they're in NQ as a 'preview' given they're being released the same day. The leaks we've seen - if accurate - will most likely be from someone who's seen the card thanks to friendly LGS staff.

Given how much cool stuff is coming that won't be released for another month or more, I'll be pretty p-ed off if these guys are one of our sneak peeks!

[Cannibalbob]

They're do out in 2 days, I'm assuming the stats are leaked because some stores have them already. I don't think they're in the NQ are they?

Aww crap - they are coming out this week? Drat, I was not planning on spending that much this week. Oh well.

[dboeren]

Just checked with our local store and they claim they're expecting them Friday.

[djbriancant]

I, for one, am GLAD for what Farrow get, and I will be ordering a SECOND unit of them to make a hard hitting 50 pt list (because that's what the LGS runs tournaments at now). Piggy Pride!

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Just checked with our local store and they claim they're expecting them Friday.

Thats odd. I'm expecting our order on Wednesday.

[withershadow]

PP's distribution is a mess right now. Not every shop gets their stuff on time.

[djbriancant]

Also, reading the wording on Massacre, the Animus can be cast on individual models. Cast three times on a unit of 'Housers means you can kill up to 9 enemy models (three hitting once, three hitting twice) in a single charge. There's your silver lining

[zee]

I'm getting more and more excited about these guys as my anti-Trolls heavy hitters :c).

5 dmg-dice and MAT 8 with takedown seems tailor made against Troll bricks!

[Razhem]

In talking about the Slaughterhousers some people have said that they don't need something else that does big damage because they can already kill big stuff with their War Hogs. I think this view may be missing an important point. Slaughterhousers make us no longer dependent on the War Hog for damage dealing. While War Hogs are nice beasts, they have their drawbacks as well. They're quite slow for instance. 7.5" threat range versus 10" on the Slaughterhousers. More importantly, they are a single valuable model. You cannot afford to get them killed easily, where you CAN afford to get a few Slaughterhousers killed. Effects that mess with single models work on War Hogs, don't work as well on Slaughterhousers. I've played a lot of games where I've had to trade a War Hog to kill an enemy heavy - I kill them and then their heavy kills my War Hog. With Slaughterhousers along I might have a better option than making that trade.

the problem with this logic is that the pigs are sorely lacking in infantry control methods, as in any sort of infantry spam will consistently rape them, hard. Basically, the hosers would be a cute third wave release that opens options and gives redundancy, but the pig list is still full of holes of basic needs and that is the big fat reason why the hosers are pretty meh, the only big fat hole they have covered is the reach hole in the faction and you can't even take them in 10 man units.

The interaction with massacre opens some options though, but the mat 6 kind of hurts it again. The really sad thing is they seem solid in Skorne, they can do very nasty things with a taskmaster and under Hexeris or Rasheth, remains to be seen if I'm better of with 3 gators over 6 hosers though, but being able to use the str song all the time without needing to go tough is pretty nice.