Blackhide Wrastler vs. Ironback Spitter

[StefDa]

So, I'm a completely new Congregation player, and I have a very important question before I spend my money on new models.

The list looks like this:

Bloody Barnabas
- Blackhide Wrastler
- Ironback Spitter
Wrong Eye
- Snapjaw
- Bull Snapper
5 Gatorman Posse
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew
Croak Hunter

In the above list, which should I take - a second Blackhide Wrastler or keep an Ironback Spitter and a Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew?

I know most people prefer two Wrastlers since they are solid Warbeasts. Since I will most likely buy the models I need to fill 35 pts (maybe 50) and not a single one more I want to get a nice list with plenty variety from the get go.

But since I, as I said, don't want to spend any more than I have to, I don't wanna end up buying two Wrastlers and end up wishing one was a Spitter, or vice versa.

Ideally I want to build the 35 pts up to a 50 then stop there until we get new stuff. The 50 pts. list I think I would like looks like this:

Bloody Barnabas
- Blackhide Wrastler
- Ironback Spitter
- Bull Snapper
Wrong Eye
- Snapjaw
- Bull Snapper
6 Bog Trog Ambushers
3 Gatorman Posse
3 Gatorman Posse
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew
3 Croak Huntes

I can remove one Croak Hunter, add a Feralgeist and replace the Spitter with another Wrastler, but don't know what would be the most sound choice keeping both strategy and flexibility in mind.

Anyways, enough rambling. Feel free to help me by discussing the pros and cons of the Wrastler and the Spitter in general and in lists like the one above.

[Feral2k]

That second list of yours (the 50 point one) is almost identical to mine. Literally one or two model choices different, plus one of the Snappers is in the wrong spot.

I feel ripped off.

[GlassJaw]

I'm firmly in the 2 Wrastler camp, especially with Barnabas. Wrastlers are essentially the only way he's going to crack armor and gives a lot of vectors for two-handed throws (bring along a Feralgeist to mark target as well).

I currently have one Spitter and for me, one is enough. I like it a lot, especially with Calaban, but I've never felt a need for a second one. There are always things to fill the points.

[StefDa]

Is the Spitter really that bad at dealing with heavy armour? I mean, I don't expect it to have Juggernaut-like strength, but it's a heavy, it's gotta have at least *some*capability, right? Granted, I don't know its stats.

[GlassJaw]

Is the Spitter really that bad at dealing with heavy armour? I mean, I don't expect it to have Juggernaut-like strength, but it's a heavy, it's gotta have at least *some*capability, right? Granted, I don't know its stats.

It has 3 attacks: POW 15, 13, 13. Let's say you burn all 4 fury against a Khador heavy (ARM 20) and hit every time. That's 5 POW 15s and 2 POW 13s. With average rolls, you'll do about 10-11 damage. That's not very good, and again, that's under the best circumstances. Your Spitter is also sure to get annihilated the next turn.

With Calaban and Parasite, it's a different story. If you can nail a heavy with Parasite early, you can soften it up with a boosted acid blast, upkeep it, and then go to town in melee when you can get the Spitter closer.

Barnabas has no such ability. He needs the Wrastler's POW 17s. Once I hit 25 points, my Barnabas lists start with 2 Wrastlers and max Gators. Period. At 50 points, I bring 2 max Gator units. After that I fill to taste.

[thag-rush]

Frankly wraslters aren't really dependable for taking down heavies either, unless you double up on a heavy in which case doubling with a spitter and wrastler will do the job just as well.
The utility of having both is huge I think, and gives you a pretty dependable way to trigger early game warpaths. You also don't give up the flying gator assassination as the turtle has double open fists.

There are some instances when I'll double up on my wrastlers but for the most part I'm sold on the one of each combo, they have performed admirable and I've never once found myself saying "boy, I wish I had a second wrastler" although there have been a few times when I thought "Boy, I wish I had a spitter."

[GlassJaw]

You also don't give up the flying gator assassination as the turtle has double open fists.

But it's a lot more difficult to pull off since you are relying on your caster to cast Rise, which only has a 6" range. I almost never have my caster in range to do that. The ranged attack is nice early in the game but with Swamp Pit, you can close the distance and protect your troops fairly easily.

I'm sure my meta has a lot do with it since I regularly see Legion beast-heavy and troll bricks.

[thag-rush]

But it's a lot more difficult to pull off since you are relying on your caster to cast Rise, which only has a 6" range. I almost never have my caster in range to do that. The ranged attack is nice early in the game but with Swamp Pit, you can close the distance and protect your troops fairly easily.

I'm sure my meta has a lot do with it since I regularly see Legion beast-heavy and troll bricks.

I actually usually find myself doing the assassination with the turtle. Gator tosses turtle, knocks down caster, casts rise. Turtle activates and usually has more than enough pow to level the average caster.

[ozmo]

I tend to take one of each.
Without the turtle oponnents can clump up, and not suffer much damage as the gators move up field.
It's not uncommon for turtle to kill 3 or so models a turn, especially if they are clumping around IF gators.

Wrastler is there for harder ARM targets and general shinnanigans.
i do find that Crocks tend to have issues getting past hig ARM targets, when compared to Farrow.

[kantoboy]

But it's a lot more difficult to pull off since you are relying on your caster to cast Rise, which only has a 6" range. I almost never have my caster in range to do that. The ranged attack is nice early in the game but with Swamp Pit, you can close the distance and protect your troops fairly easily.

Why is that? Can't the "wrastler" rise himself?

[GlassJaw]

Why is that? Can't the "wrastler" rise himself?

Not if it's knocked down, which it will be if it gets thrown.

[kantoboy]

Not if it's knocked down, which it will be if it gets thrown.

Why not? Has there been an errata? The "wrastler" ability states that even when knocked down it can use its animus.

[Nighteyes]

He was Errataed twice.

[GlassJaw]

He was Errataed twice.

Once. Rise became friendly Faction.

A Wrastler can use its animus while knocked-down. However, if a model is knocked down on your turn, it can't activate (Primal pg 63). So that thrown and knocked-down Wrastler doesn't activate at all unless another model uses Rise on it. If a Wrastler charges and uses Death Roll, it can use Rise to stand itself up.

This is why I like bringing 2 Wrastlers. If your Spitter throws your Wrastler, you are relying on your caster to use Rise. That's very risky, especially since a bad deviation can increase the range of your throw.

[thag-rush]

Turtle bomb!

[kantoboy]

Once. Rise became friendly Faction.

A Wrastler can use its animus while knocked-down. However, if a model is knocked down on your turn, it can't activate (Primal pg 63). So that thrown and knocked-down Wrastler doesn't activate at all unless another model uses Rise on it. If a Wrastler charges and uses Death Roll, it can use Rise to stand itself up.

Where is this "can't activate" phrase you speak of? pg 63 says it "cannot stand up until its controller's next turn", and then follows up with "Some special rules allow a model to stand up . . ." on pg 64.

[GlassJaw]

Where is this "can't activate" phrase you speak of? pg 63 says it "cannot stand up until its controller's next turn", and then follows up with "Some special rules allow a model to stand up . . ." on pg 64.

Hmm, that's interesting. I always thought a model knocked down during its own turn can't activate but that's obviously not the wording. I started a thread on this in the Rules forum.

[StefDa]

Chris, I remember it used to be like this. Maybe that was one of the changes in mkII.

[An00bisRa]

So which is right? he can activate since it says he can use his animus while knock down? or once knock down his done for the turn?

[kantoboy]

So anyway, thats why I like 2 wrastlers. It surprises people, and even those who know its coming have to worry about multiple vectors. Once in a while, I throw Barny himself, although this has be done carefully as you dont want your caster to deviate the wrong way and lose his activation.

[TinRobot]

So which is right? he can activate since it says he can use his animus while knock down? or once knock down his done for the turn?

The knocked down wrastler can use rise at any point to stand up and act normally. I think the reason why most people have the throwing wrastler rise is to be economic with fury but yeah wrastle is a pretty awesome rule.

If you do a search in the rules forums you can see that plenty of people have asked this question and its been answered consistently the same way.

[GlassJaw]

If you do a search in the rules forums you can see that plenty of people have asked this question and its been answered consistently the same way.

I actually searched the Rules forum quite a bit and couldn't find the answer. Regarldess, I posted this thread last night:

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...still-activate

The main point of confusion was whether a model that was knocked down during its own turn still activates or not. According to the Infernal, a model still activates even if it was knocked down during its own turn.

That means a thrown Wrastler can use its animus since a) a model knocked down on its own turn still activates and b) the Wrastler ability allows it to use its animus while knocked down.

This is HUGE. I've been playing it up to now that the thrown Wrastler can't use Rise on itself - it need another Wrastler or the caster to Rise it. This definitely makes the Spitter/Wrastler combo a lot more viable.

[khadoran wargod]

so back to the question:
which, the turtle or the wrastler?

If I was in your shoes and wanted only x points of models, I would take a ironback and a wrastler. If it wasn't a tournament setting, you could easily proxy the ironback as a wrastler in games where you want another pow17 melee attack and don't need a corrosive AOE.

Personally, I take the ironback with calaban almost exclusively and almost never with barnabas. I find the turtle to be too slow to keep up with the melee frenzy of barnabas, while it fits almost perfectly with calaban and (probably with my shooty playstyle + calaban) his different game play. Those aoe's + corrosion + parasite are just right for him.

I do plan on getting 2 more ironbacks...they're why i started the blindwater business...

[StefDa]

As I want to get Calaban eventually, I think I will settle for one of each to begin with.

I'd still like to hear more of your war stories, however!

[StefDa]

I bought an Ironback Spitter today and damn, I didn't know its ranged attack was that good.

[chris_cryx]

My Ironback spitter hasn't done a lot for me really, except for last night - his spit attack caused a ton of damage on eStryker, and corrosion finally killed him! Even more amusing as Calaban and his gators were getting destroyed. Another turn and it would have been all over. My opponent was not amused. At all.

[max2323]

I have to agree with GlassJaw...you are going to want max Gators, Iron Flesh does a lot more on five of those than 3....Cheers

[Uehen]

I like to max my Gators.
Bloody Barnabas (*6pts)
* Blackhide Wrastler (9pts)
* Ironback Spitter (8pts)
Bog Trog Ambushers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Croak Hunter (2pts)
Croak Hunter (2pts)
Totem Hunter (3pts)

I like th spitter a lot. He has won me more games than any other single model in my army. The gators get to chew on a fair few casters, but there is 15 of them in my list, so you would expect something. Being able to knock some one down, then have the croaks poke em, and spit all over them and it is usually done. I got a 2nd spitter before I got a 2nd wrestler. I keep them back guarding Barny on either side, and try to keep them out of the fight as best I can. Still do not see why his armor is less than a wrastler.

[GlassJaw]

edit: my bad

[SpaceMonkeyFromSpace]

Blindwater Congregation is +1 FA on all non-character Gatorman models and units.

I dub this list totally legit.

[GlassJaw]

Blindwater Congregation is +1 FA on all non-character Gatorman models and units.

Oops. Good call. I was thinking of his tier, which specifically states that Gatormen are FA U.

[Feral2k]

I like to max my Gators.
Bloody Barnabas (*6pts)
* Blackhide Wrastler (9pts)
* Ironback Spitter (8pts)
Bog Trog Ambushers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Croak Hunter (2pts)
Croak Hunter (2pts)
Totem Hunter (3pts)

I like th spitter a lot. He has won me more games than any other single model in my army. The gators get to chew on a fair few casters, but there is 15 of them in my list, so you would expect something. Being able to knock some one down, then have the croaks poke em, and spit all over them and it is usually done. I got a 2nd spitter before I got a 2nd wrestler. I keep them back guarding Barny on either side, and try to keep them out of the fight as best I can. Still do not see why his armor is less than a wrastler.

That seems a little beast-light, especially for 50 points.

[Mosstooth]

Little late to chime in, but I wanted to add that I don't use a wrastle at all with Barny. I opted to buy a second turtle for a couple reasons. First, I like the model more and I'm actually thinking of a third. Second, I don't want to be caught up every turn with thinking of different fastball strategies because I think it would just slow me down, and then I'd have spent points on a heavy that is just a delivery system and seems to me like it would be situational. Lastly, I like to carry the straight forwardness of Barny with the old pop and drop. I've got several wins by charging in bary, feating, nailing the enemy leader with the free spell, cast another, then follow up with two turtles.

The downside of course is high armored targets. I just plan accordingly. It gets difficult, but I don't feel like its ever been overwhelming win or lose.

[GlassJaw]

The downside of course is high armored targets. I just plan accordingly. It gets difficult, but I don't feel like its ever been overwhelming win or lose.

Come play in my meta. Tons of beast-heavy lists, brick lists, Khador players, stuff with no knockdown, etc. It might work on occasion but I would never take a list like that to a competitive setting. Too many bad matchups.

[Space Donkey]

I played a trip Spitter Barny Drop and Pop list last Saturday against a sick Morty T4 and it wasn't that bad. I had no hope of taking out the DJ, 2 Seethers, Slayer, or Harrower so I didn't even try. In fact the most damage I did to any of the big jacks in one go was from a Spiny Growth'd Spitter walking away from a Seether, yay for max damage on a d6 and a d3.

I actually would have cinched the game too, had I remembered to bring in my two min Bog Trog units on the turn I was feating with Morty only 12" from a table edge about a third of the way up the board and facing the opposite diagonal. I would have easily gotten 10 charging back strikes. But alas, my little fish men were totally forgotten in their foam and the next turn a Spectral Steel'd DJ loaded with 6 focus got up on Barny.

[Mosstooth]

I need a big flashing sign that says remember the bog trogs. I forget about them half the time I put them in a list. I'm still doing well with the pop and drop Idea, and when that fails an ARM 21 warlock usually lets me have another turn to finish up. I don't see all that much knock down immunity in my meta. I'm sure anyone with solid ground would be an auto lose. What does Khador have for KD immunity anyway? I can only think of ironsides.

[GlassJaw]

What does Khador have for KD immunity anyway? I can only think of ironsides.

Ironsides? You mean Karchev's Sidearms?

There's also Superiority, pIrusk's feat, eIrusk's jack bond (his feat also stands everyone up), the Drakhun, and the Great Bears.