Does Protectorate have what it takes?

[dicegod]

Theres an interesting thread on the Gen. Disc. boards about who will dominate TempleCon this year. The overwhelming majority seems to be with Protectorate (I personally think a tooled Cygnar list is a hard thing to beat - only the rest of the faction sucks).

Obviously player skill has a lot to do with it, but assuming gearloop/galonso/soylent/whoever else is having a good weekend - does menoth have the rock hard list to win it?

It is safe to assume that SR2010 is rather similar to SR4


Up until recently I would have said eSeverius could go it, but he got majorly dialed back from what I hear (which I don't think was overly justified). His feat is much weaker - can anyone confirm it still only lasts a turn?
Though I feel in many cases that Rebuke is a wash - it forces people to bring eEiryss and the Shaman.


Obviously pKreoss is probably the major contender, but who else? eFeora?


I personally think that if a Menite list does particularly well it will be a fast ball special. I don't believe it will be the brick. Move quick, hit hard then deny the center.
Daughters, 'Jacks running and getting Anciallary attack (looking at Escorted Vanquishers here), Enlivened Gazing Avatars and early turn Harby feats will take it IMO - if at all.

What do other people think?

[Justicator]

I'm thinking Khador will take top billing.

As for us ... I'm not that into meta and theorymachining, but I agree pKreoss just because he's already so famous and familiar for pop & drop and he can still easily pull it off in Mk. 2

I think eFeora's a good contender for her mobility and ability to keep their caster on fire once she's put them on fire. Probably the only caster we have who can deal with pCaine and eCaine (who are going to be major Cyngar contenders) consistently.

Despite the nerfing, I wouldn't count Harbinger and eSevrius out.

A well played Raza or Reznik might get up there as well, but I think they're less likely - I think we as a faction are still re-learning how to play these two and it's too early to say they'll be top contenders.

I don't play Reclaimer or Testament, so I can't even guess.

[dicegod]

I don't think people will be playing Amon, but if they were I think he is a definite high level caster now running multiple dervishes.
Mainly because he doesn't auto-lose against Kreoss and Sorcha.

[Poet]

I don't think people will be playing Amon, but if they were I think he is a definite high level caster now running multiple dervishes.
Mainly because he doesn't auto-lose against Kreoss and Sorcha.

Doesn't the covenant alone prevent that auto-loss?

[galonso]

I'm thinking Khador will take top billing.

Khador? What lists are you thinking about?

My girlfriend will be running Khador and they have some issues we have discovered in playtesting. They can win but its going to be tough.


@dicegod

We are in agreement.

[W0lf]

Kreoss1 and Harby.

Failing that it'll be Haley2 and Siege.

Khador wont win, not a chance imo.

[Malfunction]

Khador? What lists are you thinking about?

I have seen some Old Witch and eSorscha lists do very well in scenario games.

I actually think Cygnar and is best preprapred. With the two list format. Siege and eHaley have all the tools needed IMO. With that being said Harby is an AMAZING caster who can play very well in a scenario environment. She should do very well, and could easily take it.

Heh, comes down to player skill!

[Garth]

Cygnar E-Haley and Brisbane.

But you all made the right choice! You ignored Hordes. With the current Hordes Rules it will NEVER be a Hordes army that wins :-).

It won't be PoM because of the low threat ranges. EVERYBODY knows Kreoss D&P. It is still good, but it doesn't win games against experienced players. In the end all that matters is how you win the game.

E-Haley is great at scenario play and Brisbane is great at crushing everything. So I think Cygnar will have the best chances.

IF (and only if) all retribution models are out the Retribution could be an interesting army with Adeptus rahn. Lots of helpful spells in scenario and a cool assasinatoin with the Feat and Mages.

[bamburn]

Personally, I think eFeora is one of our best shots. Between a bonded Redeemer and a Vanquisher, she has plenty of anti infantry and they provide fuel for her feat (is that kind of a pun?). Plus Escort has the concomitant effects of giving our jacks great mobility and making her a respectable DEF/ARM 15/19, before factoring in focus. With our awesome jack support, I think she is pure win.

I like Harby, but I don't think she will dominate so well. I think Siege and eHaley give her decent problems, and I think Retribution will expose her biggest weakness of a low base defense and armor. With Mage Hunters abounding, especially the Strike Force w/ UA and Souless Escourts, I think she can be dropped pretty easily by a good player.

pKreoss is always a solid performer and so that won't change.

The jury is out for eSevy for me. I think he is really solid, but am not sure if he is dominant yet.

The HR/Testement I don't see getting played much, and the same with Amon and Reznik.

[RetributionBomb]

Retribution will win!

Ha.. ha...

I cry myself to sleep at night...

[meleemadness]

Cygnar E-Haley and Brisbane.

But you all made the right choice! You ignored Hordes. With the current Hordes Rules it will NEVER be a Hordes army that wins :-).

It won't be PoM because of the low threat ranges. EVERYBODY knows Kreoss D&P. It is still good, but it doesn't win games against experienced players. In the end all that matters is how you win the game.

E-Haley is great at scenario play and Brisbane is great at crushing everything. So I think Cygnar will have the best chances.

IF (and only if) all retribution models are out the Retribution could be an interesting army with Adeptus rahn. Lots of helpful spells in scenario and a cool assasinatoin with the Feat and Mages.

Agreed 1 million %!!! PoM will NOT win the event unless the ppl playing are all new players. Kreoss is a joke, everyone knows what he will do and avoid it. PoM has no effective ranged units and nothing in stealth. Every other army pretty much does. Even Khador has multiple ranged units now, every unit/model that is getting released for them is ranged or has ranged abilities.

I think Retribution has a lot of potential. They can have all their solos in stealth (minus the cav solos) and then the Mage Hunter Strike Force which can just phantom seeker Kreoss or any caster. I have seen Retribution (with Eiryss) destroy all comers. They use their massive ranged abilities, and their ability to block advances/charges with their jacks (unless you want to take a POW 12 hit). PoM can deny terrain like that too but what for? Every list out there is standing, waiting to receive your charge while they pepper you with ranged attacks and whittle away at your flanks or get into your rear with their solo's that are in stealth and move very fast!!!

I think Cygnar will win or a very conniving and devious retribution player that crunches numbers and understands that ranged wins this game hands down......and that is why PoM will suck ballz.

[Ganmeyde]

mm, you fail to realize the power of effective denial.

I'd like to see how Cygnar's ranged attacks fare against an untargetable jack wall packing two decently accurate range 10 pow 14 aoe 4 autofire shots. They are powerful, that is for certain. But I think we can handle it.

And as for having no decent shooting units, you are incorrect. We have no low-point shooting units, yes. But the Idrians can be surprisingly effective against other ranged attacks if they have the UA. And Errants shrug off anything short of CRAs from Long Gunners if you give them Defender's Ward. 14/18 isn't bad for a 5/8 unit of Blessed crossbows and weaponmasters.

The big issue to overcome is covering fire, which is quite powerful. We lack the mobility of many other factions (Khador included) so it hurts us more than many others.

All in all, I expect to see Menoth/Khador/Cygnar/Cryx sharing the top spot for a while, with the occasional Merc/Hordes list taking an underdog win.

[PG_Invader Larb]

I think Templecon is open for players to shine. The meta is still too young to know who has best adapted to the new environment. No one has "seen it all" in competative play.

A note on my boy Reznik... I think less people will play Hordes at Templecon due to its current unstable nature. The final version is still in flux. When Hordes comes back into the larger competative meta, Reznik will only shine more. His feat is very strong against Hordes and a Reznik army can focus serious firepower to take a healthy beast and entirely eliminate it which is what you need to do to be successful versus Hordes.

It will be very interesting to see how the meta changes again between now and Gencon with all the new releases from the faction books. The Vassal Mechanik could cause a dramatic surge in constructing Amon lists for example. Who knows?

[Soylent]

Agreed 1 million %!!! PoM will NOT win the event unless the ppl playing are all new players. Kreoss is a joke, everyone knows what he will do and avoid it. PoM has no effective ranged units and nothing in stealth. Every other army pretty much does. Even Khador has multiple ranged units now, every unit/model that is getting released for them is ranged or has ranged abilities.

I think Retribution has a lot of potential. They can have all their solos in stealth (minus the cav solos) and then the Mage Hunter Strike Force which can just phantom seeker Kreoss or any caster. I have seen Retribution (with Eiryss) destroy all comers. They use their massive ranged abilities, and their ability to block advances/charges with their jacks (unless you want to take a POW 12 hit). PoM can deny terrain like that too but what for? Every list out there is standing, waiting to receive your charge while they pepper you with ranged attacks and whittle away at your flanks or get into your rear with their solo's that are in stealth and move very fast!!!

I think Cygnar will win or a very conniving and devious retribution player that crunches numbers and understands that ranged wins this game hands down......and that is why PoM will suck ballz.

Is this a joke?

On a side note, if you want a good shooting unit, you may want to try Deliverers out.

[jandrese]

On a side note, if you want a good shooting unit, you may want to try Deliverers out.

Is this a joke?

Ok, I'm being mean, but honestly I cannot recommend Deliverers. Not only do they slow the game down, but I frequently fail to get much performance out of them, especially for their 5/8 cost.

[Oilslick]

The Testament is pretty cool with the Idrians + the Covenant and Rupert. The problem is I don't see this doing too well in spread out scenarios.

[Necra-Chi]

Does Protectorate have what it takes?

Yes. This.

pKreoss
Avatar
Vanquisher
Vanquisher
Redeemer
Full Choir
Vassal
Vassal
Covenant
Rhoven and Co
Full TFG
pEiryss

This doesn't really have a weakness. Its got everything.

I suspect that whoever dominates Templecon, will have something like this, or a list designed to defeat this. Knowing what those lists are (e-Haley or Siege?) and designing an alternate to trump them, might clinch it for us.

[darisus]

I think cygnar will take it but PoM will be top 5. Personally i am still adapting to alot of the things that changed for us. I have always found PoM a more challenging faction to master, and personally i feel most players are still adapting and finding the most competitive combos. Recently i have been running a first strike list with jacks as follow-up support to our faster troops. Daughters, KEE, TFG (if you pop minifeat and run them first turn), Idrians, we have alot of AD and faairly fast troops that can wreck havoc with the enemy lines. This has been working pretty well for me so far so i think i will keep pushing it to see how far it can take me.

[Soylent]

Is this a joke?

Ok, I'm being mean, but honestly I cannot recommend Deliverers. Not only do they slow the game down, but I frequently fail to get much performance out of them, especially for their 5/8 cost.

Nope, try out the Rocket Volley in different sizes. If you're running a min unit try out a pair of 3 main rocket volleys. 21"+ threat range deals well with gun lines that I've seen with Siege, B13, Mage Hunters and Mortars if there happens to be a gap. If those threats aren't around then start dropping 6man rocket volleys on jacks and other targets of opportunity. So just to reiterate, it's not a joke.

[meleemadness]

21 inch max with a 6 inch deviation...hoping it goes the right way. I have never had success with deviation rolls, ever.

To borrow a phrase I learned in the army, "Hope is not a method". I do not base my plan on hope...it will or will not happen, period.

[Soylent]

21 inch max with a 6 inch deviation...hoping it goes the right way. I have never had success with deviation rolls, ever.

To borrow a phrase I learned in the army, "Hope is not a method". I do not base my plan on hope...it will or will not happen, period.

I was in the army too, navy as well for that matter. That aside how do you fire on stealth and hope to hit if you're not within 5" or are not taking Rhovan? 3 man Rocket Volleys are a RAT4, RAT6 if one aims if stealth isn't an issue. Also it's a 4" AoE with POW7 blast damage. You need more accurate aiming, use 6 for a POW16 AoE 5 at RAT7(9). Thats more than enough to hit what you want. My advice is to play with them and see, if I had to guess not many people have played with them and it's easy to discount them(me included) when you haven't given them a fair go.

[SaltyBob]

I can see Kreoss, Severius, Feora2 and Harby doing quite well personally.

I have found our 'Jacks to be a very solid core to build our armies around. We can do scenario play well, and though our shooting took a big hit with the Idrian debacle our ranged 'Jacks seem to make up the difference and then some.

In the end doesn't it often come down to what the best players feel like playing? Not so much which army is the most disgusting. All 4 warmachine armies, and perhaps even a rogue Merc army, can do well at the moment. It's become a tight race, with no clear leader currently.

[SnakeEyes]

I can't believe nobody accounts for the Testament. He's one of our top 3 power casters. He was the caster that the Protectorate player won Nationals with 3 years ago. He hasn't effectively changed that much from Mk. I to Mk. II.

The nice thing about the ToM being underrated is that at least I don't have to feel guilty about fielding him.

[bamburn]

I can't believe nobody accounts for the Testament. He's one of our top 3 power casters.

Do you still think he is? My thought is he dropped to Tier 2 mostly because of the hit Vengers took.

In MK1 you had Vengers with 8 damage boxes (10 for the leader), and the Testament could bring them back at full wounds. An opponent whipping out all of your Vengers was a difficult task, especially with the Cav formation rules.

Now Vengers are a lot more killable, making it easier for you to loose the entire unit, and the Testament only brings them back at 1 wound.

So I guess I feel his effectiveness has dropped, because the effectiveness of our Cav has dropped.

[Ganmeyde]

Yeah, I think they nerfed Cav too hard. I mean, Mk1 cav was OP as hell, but a 37.5% drop in survivability while remaining roughly the same pointwise is pretty damn harsh. At least we get ARM21 with Battle-Driven and Defender's Ward... the other factions got screwed worse, aside from potentially Cygnar with Arcane Shield.

I mean, with 8 damage boxes and costed at, say, 8/11 or 8/12 would they still be totally OP? At that price, they're a decent trade-off between speed and the hitting power and/or anti-infantry ability of a jack, or the numbers of a full middle-class infantry unit. (I'm talking about Cav in general, not just ours. Ten Kommandoes, or three Uhlans? That's a decent choice.)

[Poise]

I'm going to agree with SnakeEyes on ToM still being a very good contender for PoM. Yes the vengers took a nasty hit with the changes but the fact remains you still have a large arsenal of weapons at your disposal on the feat turn including the vengers, Gravus, TFG, idrians, etc. which are all threats as long as they survive. Minor changes might need to be made to the lists to include some alternate options of ToM "missles" but the options are there still and pretty much untouched. IMO ToM gained a little with the changes to the way leaders of units work now as well. No longer can your opponent snipe your leader and leave you hanging with no commander for a charge order. If you keep on top of reviving them and don't fall behind, I don't see much of a change from the previous ToM methods. We will have to see how the SR2010 rules come into play though because depending on the scenarios, ToM might fall flat in that category.

The pKreoss list Necro-Chi mentioned above is also a very nasty threat I plan on testing out at TempleCon myself along with my ToM list to see how both fair for preparations for GenCon.

[Ganmeyde]

I'm going to agree with SnakeEyes on ToM still being a very good contender for PoM. Yes the vengers took a nasty hit with the changes but the fact remains you still have a large arsenal of weapons at your disposal on the feat turn including the vengers, Gravus, TFG, idrians, etc. which are all threats as long as they survive. Minor changes might need to be made to the lists to include some alternate options of ToM "missles" but the options are there still and pretty much untouched. IMO ToM gained a little with the changes to the way leaders of units work now as well. No longer can your opponent snipe your leader and leave you hanging with no commander for a charge order. If you keep on top of reviving them and don't fall behind, I don't see much of a change from the previous ToM methods. We will have to see how the SR2010 rules come into play though because depending on the scenarios, ToM might fall flat in that category.

The pKreoss list Necro-Chi mentioned above is also a very nasty threat I plan on testing out at TempleCon myself along with my ToM list to see how both fair for preparations for GenCon.

Oh, no doubt the Testamnet (That's what his blister calls him, so that's his name dammit) of Menoth is still good without the Vengers. I was just sad that my $80 4-man unit is now a 3-man unit, and just not worth their points in most games.

[SnakeEyes]

Yeah, I've been running the Testament fine without Vengers. Although, I should really try slotting them in a list. So I don't even think Vengers are key to the Testament's strength. I mean he can bring back Weaponmaster KE or CMA'ing TFG anywhere within his CNTRL range and THEN allow them to charge through your opponent's entire army to get to the opposing warcaster/warlock and back line support. That's frackin' awesome!

Now on to loss of Venger durability. This wasn't really crucial to what made them sick with ToM anyways, unless you were playing attrition wars, which the Testament can easily do with single wound units anyways. The power of the Vengers with ToM was the huge threat range plus high effective MAT plus high P+S for that assassination turn. This still exists in all its glory except for some loss of threat range due to March nerf and change in Gravus.

So, Testament rocks hard. But, shhhhhh.... I shouldn't even be talking about this here.

[Ganmeyde]

Yeah, I've been running the Testament fine without Vengers. Although, I should really try slotting them in a list. So I don't even think Vengers are key to the Testament's strength. I mean he can bring back Weaponmaster KE or CMA'ing TFG anywhere within his CNTRL range and THEN allow them to charge through your opponent's entire army to get to the opposing warcaster/warlock and back line support. That's frackin' awesome!

Now on to loss of Venger durability. This wasn't really crucial to what made them sick with ToM anyways, unless you were playing attrition wars, which the Testament can easily do with single wound units anyways. The power of the Vengers with ToM was the huge threat range plus high effective MAT plus high P+S for that assassination turn. This still exists in all its glory except for some loss of threat range due to March nerf and change in Gravus.

So, Testament rocks hard. But, shhhhhh.... I shouldn't even be talking about this here.

Yeah, but unless I am mistaken, the new formation rules mean it's harder to have the leader hang back to bring in more grunts.

[bamburn]

The power of the Vengers with ToM was the huge threat range plus high effective MAT plus high P+S for that assassination turn. This still exists in all its glory except for some loss of threat range due to March nerf and change in Gravus.

That is just it, Vengers in MKI glory had a 15 inch threat range. Add in the ability to revive anywhere in the Testament's control area (subject to the normal rules of course), and that was exceedingly hard for your opponent to stop.

Testament without Vengers is relegated to units with a max threat range of what, 11 inches? And that would be TFG who doesn't hit nearly as hard or accurate as Vengers, and yet they cost the same amount of focus to Revive.

I am not saying the Testament isn't a fine caster, I just don't think he is top tier anymore.

[SnakeEyes]

Yeah, but unless I am mistaken, the new formation rules mean it's harder to have the leader hang back to bring in more grunts.

I think I see what you're saying but it's the same if not arguably better in Mk. II.

With Mk. II you can have ~18" (assuming CMD 9) between a front line unit model a "I'm hiding for Revive purposes" back line unit model, assuming your leader model is hanging out in the middle as the bridge.

With the Mk. I cav formation rules, the effect was somewhat equivalent to Mk. II. But it's way better for all non-cav units because to accomplish the same kind of spread in Mk. I you had to do a whacky stringing of unit models to keep one safe in the back. Now you can just have one in the back, one in the middle (the leader), and the rest up front in the fray making attacks and tying up enemy models.

[Mutton]

This of course begs the question of whether the new Revive rules as seen in the Hordes FT are on ToM's card.

[Garth]

Hm, I thought about PoM on Templecon or other big events.

First choice as Caster is Kreoss. Always :-).

But I am still unsure about the second caster. I fear Kreoss is our only OP caster so far :-).

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

I have played Amon a few times in MK2, and he is pretty darn competitive.

Testament is the same, cav changes aside. He is just not AS good against Darius anymore.

Reznik, if delivered into range of the opposing caster, will win.

I haven't played Harbinger because I am repainting her at the moment, but she sounds so much better than the MK1 version.

ESeverius is still fun and still a bastard to play against.

Feora (see Reznik)

Kreoss will always be awesome. When in doubt - Menoth's Wrath.

[Necra-Chi]

Snakeyes I suspect that the cygnar trumping alternate list one might take would be a testament infantry heavy list?

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

Snakeyes I suspect that the cygnar trumping alternate list one might take would be a testament infantry heavy list?

Hells yes.

[SnakeEyes]

You mean to get around Siege, eHaley, and Disruption tricks? Yeah, that'd make sense.

Revive is also good for getting around pulse feats and effects.

[galonso]

You mean to get around Siege, eHaley, and Disruption tricks? Yeah, that'd make sense.

Revive is also good for getting around pulse feats and effects.

How would you build it?

[SnakeEyes]

How would you build it?

My Testament lists are pretty straightforward.
1) Take Testament a min jack (Crusader).
2) Add a cheap anti-assassination measure (and Swiss army knife) - Gorman.
3) Buff the ToM for being the Revive engine he is - Wracks and Hierophant.
4) Take general support - Covenant and Rupert.
5) Pour a bunch of one wound infantry in the list - KE, TFG, and Daughters.

Testament of Menoth -6
Hierophant 2
Wrack 1
Crusader 6
Knights Exemplar (6) 5
Knights Exemplar (6) 5
Knights Exemplar or Daughters (6) 5
Temple Flameguard (10) 6
Temple Flameguard (10) 6
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 2
Covenant of Menoth 2

Army Points: 34

To bump it to 50, I'd include max Vengers and a unit of KE/Daughters (whatever I left out of the option in the 35).
Just swarm the hell out of the enemy and reap in the secretive joy that whenever he kills your dudez its actually feeding into your plans. It feel kind of twistedly OP'ed when you're don't care when your opponent kills your stuff. Until a unit starts getting down to one or two models, that is. But that takes a VERY concerted effort by your opponent if you play the ToM right. I'd even say too much effort, in that your opponent probably overextended in some way to accomplish it.

[AgAZuR]

My Testament lists are pretty straightforward.
1) Take Testament a min jack (Crusader).
2) Add a cheap anti-assassination measure (and Swiss army knife) - Gorman.
3) Buff the ToM for being the Revive engine he is - Wracks and Hierophant.
4) Take general support - Covenant and Rupert.
5) Pour a bunch of one wound infantry in the list - KE, TFG, and Daughters.

Testament of Menoth -6
Hierophant 2
Wrack 1
Crusader 6
Knights Exemplar (6) 5
Knights Exemplar (6) 5
Knights Exemplar or Daughters (6) 5
Temple Flameguard (10) 6
Temple Flameguard (10) 6
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 2
Covenant of Menoth 2

Army Points: 34

To bump it to 50, I'd include max Vengers and a unit of KE/Daughters (whatever I left out of the option in the 35).
Just swarm the hell out of the enemy and reap in the secretive joy that whenever he kills your dudez its actually feeding into your plans. It feel kind of twistedly OP'ed when you're don't care when your opponent kills your stuff. Until a unit starts getting down to one or two models, that is. But that takes a VERY concerted effort by your opponent if you play the ToM right. I'd even say too much effort, in that your opponent probably overextended in some way to accomplish it.

I have a question, how do you play such a list? :P i have tryed ToM several times and found that i cant play him, in order to work i need to keep all my infantery inside his realy tiny controll area. Doing so resulted in massive damage to my dude from aoe/blasts etc far more than i could revive. How do you get around this?

Granted i did not have as many temple flameguards and i recon their UA shoud help a bit with ranked attacks, but you have not included the UA :P