Does Protectorate have what it takes?

[Necra-Chi]

I worry that Testament lost some of his oomph from Mk1 with the loss of cleanser bombs, impel and gravus' boost to the vengers. I'd worry that the only things in that list capable of actually killing a high DEF caster are the vengers (still dicey) and big CMAs and the crusader boosting.

[MoDination]

Too bad ToM didn't get guidance or ignite. But the only spell I'd really want to lose (because I've never used it) would be dust to dust, though EVERY caster has 1 offensive spell.

Edit: Hallowed Avenger + Reckoner might be a sweet combo if you can pull it off. Hallowed avenger now reads that the jack can charge an enemy model after the attack is resolved. Assault is part of the charge so you would effectively get two attacks (against a single model) out of turn for losing 1 model.

[SnakeEyes]

I have a question, how do you play such a list? :P i have tryed ToM several times and found that i cant play him, in order to work i need to keep all my infantery inside his realy tiny controll area. Doing so resulted in massive damage to my dude from aoe/blasts etc far more than i could revive. How do you get around this?

Granted i did not have as many temple flameguards and i recon their UA shoud help a bit with ranked attacks, but you have not included the UA :P

I just have practice I guess. You're not going to get every model within his CNTRL radius but you can get the majority. And if models die then so be it. They'll come back eventually. Time is on the Testament's side. You may take a lot of damage on a turn or two, given sufficient mass anti-infantry tools in their list, but eventually you're in melee and you're creating losses on their side. That's when the battle turns towards your favor. Your opponent cannot keep up.

I don't have two unit of TFG, just one, but I do have the rest of the list and I've proxied games with two full units in Vassal. I don't take the TFG UA because they're kind of supposed to die. I suppose the UA wouldn't hurt, though, but it does take away points towards other things.

And I do miss Cleanser Bombs very much with the Testament. I'm going to go cry now...

[SteveinNYC]

The nice thing about the ToM being underrated is that at least I don't have to feel guilty about fielding him.

Agreed

I'd worry that the only things in that list capable of actually killing a high DEF caster are the vengers (still dicey) and big CMAs and the crusader boosting.

That's what the Fire of Salvation+Hallowed Avenger is for.

[Ganmeyde]

Same with eKreoss. I'd use him every game if I didn't have to convert him so much to look good. And his feat is much more devastating than it gets credit for.

Of course, I'll probably just stick his spear on a 2010 Kreoss and add some bling...

[SnakeEyes]

Just ran that Testament list. As normal, ton of stuff died, opponent feels confident, Testament Revives half of it back and pop feat, models kill stuff, tide turns 180 degrees, opponents says "W-T-F?" I'm tellin' ya, Testament...

Of course, you have to get REALLY good at running that many models in a time environment. But WTH, it's essentially run, run, charge and you don't really care all that much what gets destroyed.

[Chaun]

I think Khador has a small chance but we are going to have a lot of trouble building two lists that can take it all. I agree with everyone that Cygnar and pKreoss/Testament will be difficult to beat.

One thing I am surprised about is how no one has mentioned Cryx! I think they have a good shot at it with eSkarre, Terminus or Deneghra...

[SaltyBob]

Just ran that Testament list. As normal, ton of stuff died, opponent feels confident, Testament Revives half of it back and pop feat, models kill stuff, tide turns 180 degrees, opponents says "W-T-F?" I'm tellin' ya, Testament...

Of course, you have to get REALLY good at running that many models in a time environment. But WTH, it's essentially run, run, charge and you don't really care all that much what gets destroyed.

How do you find the Crusader works with him? Is he getting Hallowed Avenger or do you not even bother casting it. I'm just curious as to why one Crusader, instead of say 2 Devouts or a Reckoner for the extra charge distance on the feat turn. A nice Assault + flare for the win?

It looks like you have your army packed with infantry, so obviously it is hard to drop anything, though I would lean towards the Heirophant personally.

Have you come up against heavy shooting armies, or board control like Denny2.

[Marius]

I'd like to see how Cygnar's ranged attacks fare against an untargetable jack wall packing two decently accurate range 10 pow 14 aoe 4 autofire shots. They are powerful, that is for certain. But I think we can handle it.

The jack wall isn't untargetable at all. Gun Mages, B13th, either Caine, GMCA, anything that Lady Ayiana supports can all hit them. That's more than enough to rip a Protectorate jack wall to shreds in a turn or two.

[Blackraine]

If I could go to Templecon, I'd be bringing a regular Feora list with the Avatar, some daughters, a couple Vanquishers, and whatever other support stuff I could think of to throw in there. I love Epic Feora (she's my favorite caster) but I think regular Feora has a better chance against a fire-immune Troll list. Sure, her feat and Blazing Effigy would be worthless in such an event, but she has Ignite still, and there's nothing wrong with a Vanquisher threshing things at POW 21, or a POW 23 Avatar.

And, of course, there isn't much in this world that survives 6 or 7 POW 19's at 10 MAT from 11" away on her assassination run.

I do agree though, the other factions have great lists. Just because Menoth is strong faction-wide doesn't mean that any one list is just way more powerful than the best lists of other factions.

[Blackraine]

Same with eKreoss. I'd use him every game if I didn't have to convert him so much to look good. And his feat is much more devastating than it gets credit for.

Of course, I'll probably just stick his spear on a 2010 Kreoss and add some bling...

Wow, really? I use Epic Kreoss' model for pKreoss all the time in friendly games specifically BECAUSE he looks cool.

[Blackraine]

On a hordes note... I really think that E Kaya with Baldur or Krueger as a second list is competitive. E Kaya's strike range is the longest in the game with a properly built list, and even with a watered down feat, Krueger is still an infantry killing machine. Baldur, on the other hand, still has good board control, and a vastly upgraded assassination run. I'm not saying they'll run away with it for sure, but I think a good Circle player should have few serious snags against most of the "expected" lists.

[Necra-Chi]

The jack wall isn't untargetable at all. Gun Mages, B13th, either Caine, GMCA, anything that Lady Ayiana supports can all hit them. That's more than enough to rip a Protectorate jack wall to shreds in a turn or two.

That's why some infantry (idrians or TFG) for engaging shooters to buy time is essential, and why the redeemer gets infantry clearing duty early on.

[dicegod]

Testament isn't as good because
1) Cav is less survivable, this hurts twice as much because a Venger will often be dead if Battle Driven triggers
2) IMpel is gone
3) Daisy chaining is gone (though is now different)
4) Souls are no longer a resource you control
5) Gravus doesn't boost charge ranges
6) Idrians are worse
7) Zealots are worse
8) Cleanser bombs are gone
9) You get less infantry than before
10) ToM could never crack ARM, now with increased survivable 'jacks he struggles even more
11) March is gone
12) Vengers used to protect ToM against ranged assassins, now it's weaker
13) Soul Storm was a great spell against troop heavy eVlad, Soulgate shennanigans etc.

3 MAT9 POW14's probably won't kill a 'caster. They need MAT11 or MAT9+3d6.


---On a positive note, you can get some cool threat ranges with the Fire of Salvation.

[Marius]

That's why some infantry (idrians or TFG) for engaging shooters to buy time is essential, and why the redeemer gets infantry clearing duty early on.

Completely agree. But the point i was making is you can't got against Cygnar and expect Hymm of Passage to save your bacon.

[PG_69Lazarus]

I watched an E-Caine list dismantle a POM list the other day like the Choir wasn't even there. ROS can also do it farily well.

I also find it amusing that so many people count out certain factions. Hopefully, the new shakeup with make people see things a bit differently. I can't go, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel like I was handicapped at all with my main faction despite what the poll shows.

[Ganmeyde]

The jack wall isn't untargetable at all. Gun Mages, B13th, either Caine, GMCA, anything that Lady Ayiana supports can all hit them. That's more than enough to rip a Protectorate jack wall to shreds in a turn or two.

But don't tell that to the Cygnarians. They don't take kindly to someone trying to help them beat us.

[galonso]

I watched an E-Caine list dismantle a POM list the other day like the Choir wasn't even there. ROS can also do it farily well.

I also find it amusing that so many people count out certain factions. Hopefully, the new shakeup with make people see things a bit differently. I can't go, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel like I was handicapped at all with my main faction despite what the poll shows.

So if you were going what would you run?

What two lists at 35 and 50?

[Soylent]

For most casters it's anyone's game. I'm still narrowing my list down but as it stands it's eKreoss, pKreoss, Amon and eFeora.

[galonso]

I meant for Khador. That's his main faction.

[Ganmeyde]

The more I look at it, the more the meta seems a bit rock/paper/scissor-y

Menoth Denial Loop > Khador IFP/Bombard Spam > Cygnar Siege/Haley > Menoth Denial Loop

And then Cryx sneaks up on everyone else and rips their soul out to use as fuel. D=

[Soylent]

I keep seeing Menoth tossed around as the "denial loop" faction. I rarely if ever play them that way. Hitting hard and fast has been very effective for me. Don't get caught up in stereotypes, even with casters as it makes you a predictable opponent.

[MoDination]

Heck! use it to your advantage. If someone expects you to play a certain way do the unexpected and keep them guessing all game. Just don't get caught up in it and leave yourself open to a nice caster-pasting