eButcher, he's kinda tough learn

[tuttleboy]

Theorymachine go away.

The only thing I'm hoping to see in this thread is, "I've used it and it's been a game changer" type of stuff.


So lately I've been trying to learn to use eButcher. I've taken Spriggan and Doomreavers+UA with him nearly every time. But, from there I get very shaky as I feel I need to take melee beatsticks to use in conjunction with his feat such as DA BEARS or Man-O-War Shocktroopers or (one of my super favorites), MoW Drakun. The problem is is that as usual when playing our beloved Reds our DEF is so crappy that we die to anything even vaguely resembling a gun line army.

Don't get me wrong here, I've tried our Kayazy Assassins and been underwhelmed (maybe I shouldn't cast Fury on them right away). Maybe I shouldn't be so stuck on running with the maniacal Doomreavers+UA and should try out the IFP+UA. Maybe I shouldn't try to hang back a bit with eButcher and just run him up the gut, but that's lost me at leat one game.

This is where I'd like to turn to the community and have you guy's real life input (NO THEORYMACHINE, please) to help me to learn to use what looks like a challangeing but super fun caster to master. Should I attrition with the feat? Should I assassinate with it? Tell me what you've used on more than one occasion with Orsus Zoktavir that works...please.

...and if you'd like to Theroymachine, I guess I'm OK with that, because at 1-3 in the W-L column, I'll take what I can get.

[DemonCalibre]

The first thing turtleboy is are you playing scenarios?

Gun Lines are very potent, but fall to pieces the moment you require them to do something other then kite you, if you don't consider busting out steam roller 2010 scenarios.

As for my eOrsus experiences I find him really hit and miss, mostly depending on how well I am rolling his focus. I have had games where he has single handedly killed 20+ models and the opposing caster on the same turn, without using his feat, I have had games, where I have never rolled more then a 3 one time for focus, and never had enough muscle to do anything.

From my experience your list should have two primary components.

First things that acquire rage tokens, Widowmakers, Widowmaker Marksmen, Mortars, Kell Belloch, Eyriss, etc are all reliable sources of infantry kill that will help you generate tokens, most of the models you want to use tokens on aren't great at generating them or you will need to run them so devote some of your list to models who's only purpose is to generate tokens.

Second things are things that dominate with Rage Tokens, Drakhun, Fenris, Great Bears, Beast 09, etc. Try to keep 2-4 of these in your list and spend much of your time protecting them, if they have to run and use the feat to win the game, then that is fine, but you have to consider them the very valuable asset that they are.

Lastly, it is my experiance that eOrsus' conferred rage, feat, might make you think that he is a jack caster(Like many Khadoran Casters), but his random focus generation and the general inefficient nature of Khadoran warjacks make it so that he is mostly good at running one or two warjacks really well, focus on Warjacks with reach as they better utilize his feat(Beast 09 of course is the best, but Spriggan isn't bad), use these as your finishers, and be aggressive with them early as most armies just don't have enough shooting to put down Khadoran Heavies, while dealing with a Drakhun running into hand to hand and engaging them, and Iron Fangs prepping for the assault, then you feat rack up some tokens and Beast 09 finishes the game for you with ease.

[*SQUEE*]

I run eButcher in his theme list and love the crazy dude. I normally only run him with one Jack (Kodiak) that is used to screen him early on and I always camp all his focus until he is able to put axe to face himself (and get rage tokens).

I find the key to success is to run your Doom Reavers in waves in each unit. By this a mean do not run you Doom Reavers at the enemy at the same time but run two ahead of the unit so they can engage the enemy. I usually run mine in a minimum of six inches apart so it is hard for the enemy to take out a whole unit in a go. If you play Doom Reavers you know that it only takes one to really hurt your opponent.

His feat is sick and when its time for feat turn I always run either a few Doom Reavers or some Manhunters behind there army so I can kick there caster in the crotch or place them to cripple his key units. Placing of your guys is key on feat turn and my locale club hates to play the army because of the devastation that they feel is so hard to prevent on feat turn.

I have never played eButcher out of his tier so can only comment on it.

[tuttleboy]

@*SQEE* thanks, but that force looks like something that's currently outside the price line, not mine but the wifes. She's told me if I spend much more (2 more Doom Reaver units) on "my little men", I will have to hand over the ***** and I'm kind of loathe to do that. Don't think I'm not tempted though. Doom Reavers are just good, especially with UA.

@Demoncalibre It looks like you're pushing forward and feating on 2nd turn. Are you pushing Orsus forward and culling tokens from the widowmakers\shoooty bastiches or are you looking for something like what won me my last game. Confered Rage Spriggan with Boundless Charge fun=charging 11" and reach at +2 MAT from confered rage and +2 MAT from the cav chage with tokens available as needed.

Thanks for the help already gang. I'd like the guys he other side of the table to see eButcher as a crazy "Oh CaCa I better be careful" caster than some kind of gimicky flub that gets it right once in while but hands out snowcones to the badguys the next time.

[squee]

I've commented several times on the khador boards on how much i love eButcha with jacks and I lean towards Devastators, Marauders and Spriggans meself. His success is like his focus, a touch random and designed me caster kill turn to require 4 focus to run. So far my most successful jack build with him is 2 Marauders and 3 Devastators @ 35pts. Plough forward, charge targets for free and then on feat turn, pop feat, kill cannon fodder and tarpits with eButcher to clear the way, mop up the rest with Devvies and maybe run some of them towards the enemy caster with a focus point or two and then on rage token turn, wail on the caster with two of the jacks. So far so good, with mixed success but win or lose, my games have always been madly entertaining.

[Dirty]

My ebutcher focus when not playing his theme force:

Widowmakers/marksman/kell/eyriss for easy feat tokens
Drakhun/great bears/fenris are my primary feat targets because they don't generally need to worry about unit coherency which is a big hurdle in getting the most out of his feat.
Most of my wins go something like this-
Drakhun runs 14" taking care not to go so far as to be unable to receive rage tokens.
Fenris runs up to 16" taking care not to go so far as to be unable to receive rage tokens.
Butcher charges or walks and feats, if he is not charging then be sure to boost a blunderbuss shot to gain his jack bonuses. REMEMBER THE GUN!
Warjacks now speed 6 who find themselves well placed can also run into position.*
Widowmakers and any other ranged options u have included pop 4-6 tokens for u**
Deal out 3 rage tokens to your nicely placed high speed high mat weapon masters or driven warjacks, walk your 6-8" again and slay that warcaster
*I prefer the spriggan and beast09 for warjacks in larger games for reach, and juggernauts for a cheaper option in smaller games for their high P+S which is essential for getting the best effect from rage tokens.
**If you're fighting a warjack army you can find yourself gimped for an essentially featless game but it is rare

[markya]

I'll second his theme force. "I've played it in" slow grow and at 50 points. It's not brilliant at low points values as you don't see enough crunchy squishy infantry to generate rage tokens, but as others have mentioned above - in any scenarios where the opponent is forced to come to you it's silly awesome. It *is* difficult to get your head round random focus, but once you learn to forget the focus and just play the hand you're dealt metaphorically, it is a great deal of fun.

Some tips I've learned:

- UA is very useful for the DRs at high points. For tough mainly, rather than silence.
- Find a fury target (Usually on the jack for me, prob a Juggie or a Kodiak). Upkeep it unless you *really* *really* suck on the focus roll.
- Learn to spot opportunities for the daisy chain of death (eButcher+HM+Ravager). Remember you don't *move* off kills to your own models but you do get another strike. Everyone says that once people have played against the list a few times then they learn not to do it. I disagree, it's like Cryx assassination vectors, it's a matter of spotting opportunities and capitalising on them...
- Turn order: Butcher goes first, Doomies next, Manhunters and Jacks next, then Fenris, for me, unless something strange happens.
- Keep a unit or two of Doomies back as a second wave/body guard. They don't need to be a long way back, but it gives your opponent something to think about - especially if he's running a charge denial or large AOE feat caster (Old witch, Hayley etc...)

I generally run a single Jack for t3, but I've had moderate success with more, so t4 isn't completely out of the question.

[x3tsniper]

Orsus can be great, but I find that he is usually lack luster.

A: His focus is random, unless you kill 3+ models...
B: If your opponent is jack/beast heavy, you might as well not pop your feat.
You will probably have this happen against legion more than anyone else.

[Natetehaggresar]

I find that the random focus is just annoying, not game breaking. Of course it would be nice if you could plan for next turn, but he can with with very low focus rolls each turn. I agree with the people who suggest taking good feat target, like the drakhun and fenris.

What annoys me about eButch is that he is highly matchup dependant, due to his feat. If there are alot of enemy models to kill its probably going to be a good game, if I'm playing against somone who is jack/beast heavy then its going to be alot rougher, and I suddenly need to roll well for focus. eButch really is in the formost an assination caster, a running feated, furied drakun can run 14 inches, advance another 7, with 2 inches of reach and make 3 mat 8 pow 17 weaponmaster attacks on the enemy caster. Thats good.

Also I like madelyn corbeau with eButch to get extra range on the blunderbuss. I also agree with the need for reach Jacks, and models that are good at generating rage tokens.

[tuttleboy]

Thanks for the help boys. You've given me some good food for thought.

[Havock]

Orsus can be great, but I find that he is usually lack luster.

A: His focus is random, unless you kill 3+ models...
B: If your opponent is jack/beast heavy, you might as well not pop your feat.
You will probably have this happen against legion more than anyone else.

Well, I have a Kromac with 3 biggies as part of my meta, the other is an eKaya pack, so that leaves the troll player who focusses on infantry a bit more.

eButcher is crazy. So is his playstyle, sometimes it works wonders, other times... Not so much.
Really rewarding when an enemy fails an assasination run on him and leaves a bunch of models clustered around him

[thrasymacus]

I do well with eButcher, and I follow the general ideas above; models to generate tokens, models to spend them.

When generating tokens you have to look at the board under a different light. Often you go for the cheap kills, killing models that aren't a threat. If it's vulnerable and has good odds of dieing then you kill it and soak up that rage token.

While you're doing that you're positioning your Token Spenders, often by running. If you can get Yuri to net you some kills that's fine, but don't leave him hanging with nothing to use his rage tokens on. So set your hard hitters up, and then trust in your plan to know that they'll have tokens to spend.

Rage Token Generators. Devastator. Obvious choice. Lot's of strategic options. Suits a playstyle where you're trying to achieve victory or board supremacy after he RoD's. Mortars. Joe + WG of flavor (If Joe is get's Rage Tokens, he benefits from his speeches as well, so you don't waste tokens boosting to hit) WG Sprays AND CRA's. Various Snipers.

Rage Token Spenders. Drakhun. Yuri. Beast 09. (I much prefer Beast over Spriggan...I like the free Run and higher MAT and chance to freeze, meaning less tokens spent boosting) Great Bears. Notice it's generally all weaponmaster dudes with MAT 8 and Reach?