what "sucks" in menoth?

[Strange_Eric]

I'm curious as to what all people consider to be weak units/models in the PoM. Since I'm continuously hearing that the faction is over powered. I would like to be able to field perceived crappy models and beat up my opponents anyway. Its a fun challenge I think :-)

Unless menoth is just that broken lol

[SnakeEyes]

Repenter
Cleansers
Deliverers
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist solo
Knights Exemplar Seneschal

Arguably, the Dervish and Devout are weak outside of Amon lists.

[Necra-Chi]

Repenter is too good to be on that list.

[buddah3602]

i have to disagree on the Repenter.....sprays are just too good now

[LordGrimlok]

Agree with Allegiant and Seneschal. I like the Repenter. Still experimenting with cleansers, but I'm liking them so far.

[Garth]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.

[Soulblighter]

The Guardian also seems a bit too weak. Its basically just a Crusader with an ArcNode and Reach some gimmicky extras that arnt really worth +3 points.

[buddah3602]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.


Some of the things on this list are very good depending on what caster you use. But its all situational. Im actually a big fan of the Castigator. And FoS is phenomenal when you run it with Reznik. All boosted melee attacks for 1 focus? Upkeep Iron Aggression on the Avatar, and for 2 focus, you get 4 boosted melee attacks.

[Justicator]

Repenter
Cleansers
Deliverers
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist solo
Knights Exemplar Seneschal

Arguably, the Dervish and Devout are weak outside of Amon lists.

Have to disagree here with some of this.

I field Repenters all the time. At 4 points he's a great light jack. With eFeora and a Choir, they're amazing.

Cleansers cheap unit full of Sprays ... I like it. Pluse the incinerate order is cool. Plan on using these with my Castigator for a mobile pillar of fire and fists.

Deliverers do very interesting things with the Rocket Volleys, I like them as a skirmish unit. Sure they're not that reliable, but they really give the opponent something to think about.

Dervish I like a lot with any of our Jack casters. 4 Points for fast offense can carve out a unit of infantry pretty quick, or combine attack to crack a heavy jack in a pinch very nice. I plan on buying a pile of them to field with Raza, Reznik and eFeora.

Order of the Fist ... I haven't play it yet... but Theorymachining on it I can see it as disappointing, rumor has it they got tough though, so maybe?

Zombie Seneschal is good for a higher point game or a troop heavy game, but I'd rather field Vilmon/Paladins over him any day.

Devout I'm not that impressed with, but I plan on using mine to escort things into the fray - and the Menofixer will help. Run my paladins behind him to get them deeper into enemy lines before I slow them down. Have him jump in front of the Walking Bullseye (Avatar) of Menoth.

...

Things that I think suck:
Guardian - 9 points of nothing
Our Cavalry - Expensive and not really worth it
Rhoven & Bodyguards - Compared to every other character unit ... wow they suck.

...

Things I'm disappointed in, but don't necessarily suck:
Templar - boring boring boring boring
Bastions - For the points I'm spending on them I'd like either more survivability, speed or offensive potential out of them
Castigator - Shoulda been 7 points, especially compared to Kodiak, Crusader and Iron Clad

[Lanz]

Nothing sucks in PoM. Some stuff is used less than others because too many players don't experiment with their own synergy, they just take what's obvious or what other people say, and run with that.

I can't think of anything that is truely terrible, everything has a use, its just a matter of whether or not you need it.

[paradox]

Repenter
Cleansers
Deliverers
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist solo
Knights Exemplar Seneschal

Arguably, the Dervish and Devout are weak outside of Amon lists.

I have found the repenter, dervish and devout to all be great at their roles. Cleansers are GOLD for me. Haven't had alot of play with seneschal, monk, or deliverer yet, though the monk does seem to have gotten a rough deal.

For me, it's Vilmon that lets me down every time now. I avoided playing him much in MK1 cause he was so stoopid-good. Being reduced to just one attack is sad times. And he is so very easy to kill now. He should have been costed to 2pts or kept quick strike (or gotten cleave, or thresher, at the very least). Now, I'd take a seneschal or paladin over Vilmon any day. That is a sad statement.

[Soylent]

That list is bunk. My opinion is if you're looking to buy models you're not sure how they play, proxy them first for a couple weeks and see how they perform. I will say the Repenter is deadly as an assassination tool as well as troop clearer. Seneschal beats just as hard as it used to, it just doesn't slam as far(it's done a lot for me). Deliverers may surprise you. I haven't played with the Cleansers and the Monk solo yet so I can't say there.

So while it may not be the answer you want to hear, it's probably best you make up your own mind until things settle in after awhile.

[PG_n00buaddib]

The only thing on my list would be Allegiant. But I never gave him a go so I suppose I could be surprised...probably not though. Oh yeah, and eKreoss. :P

[Soylent]

Odd, I'm finding eKreoss to be very solid. I've become quite fond of playing him.

[PG_n00buaddib]

I haven't played him much either (only two games recently) but...he dies quite easily. Could have been stupid Legion I was playing against, I'll test him against a normal faction one day.

[MoDination]

Nothing does or has sucked for PoM (exception being the pre-errata Repenter). A huge factor is your personal play style. I regularly ran Amon lists Mk I and I dominated most games with it. I had a friend who couldn't play the old man to save his own life yet he worked well enough for me, similarly I was never into playing Reznik but that was his favorite guy in the world.

The only problem I have with the Allegiant is that no one will touch him around here so by the time he gets far enough to do anything the game is over. The severe swing in Idrians from a melee based skirmisher to ranged still irks me a lot as I don't care for ranged armies much and Idrians were my favorite unit (fluff wise).
I would like Deliverers to have arcing fire so they can shoot over our own troops more than passed enemy.

[Warpriest]

I've used the Allegiant several times in Mk2, he's not as bad as many make him out to be. I run him first turn, then move to engage something and use Shifting Winds. They can attack him and likely miss letting him move to engage something else, or they can move away from him and take a 9+4d6 freestrike. Basically I use him to mess with my opponents positioning. I don't care if he kills anything.

[SteveinNYC]

I love the Devout because of shield guard and reach. He's in every list I field, and he always keeps important things alive.

I like Vilmon because he can deliver the last blow to a jack when I fall short of taking it out, or for the assassination run. With reach and that much damage, he brings the pain. I really like him with eKreoss and the Testament.

I feel like the Guardian should be good, but I have yet to make him work to the level I think he can.

I want the Castigator to be good, but I don't think it is. I'm going to run it with eFeora and cross my fingers.

There's plenty of stuff I don't like, but that's more because it doesn't fit my play style.

[HellaJeff]

I haven't played much, I have a battlegroup so must of my list building is theory based.

Having said that I think warpriest is a smart cookie with his monk idea. I may have to use that.

And for Buddah, you seem to have a solid idea how to run one list. And probably don't usemany strategies outside it. Menoth has crazy cool strategies, as long as you dont play them like they are a different army.

[MoDination]

Castigator is good for Menoth due to being one of our faster heavies. Also, the two 16(18) fists can scrap a jack easily. While I personally turn to my reckoners (always have, always will), castigator can be good as well.

[squidstudios]

Covenant is weak. A medium base that counts as a small? C'mon.

Vassal is pretty stinky too. He doesn't even have a melee attack!!

Redeemer loses as well. Never hits anything, and his beak is round.

[buddah3602]

i run 2 casters. usually Efeora or Reznik. For some reason, i really like those 2, lol

[AmonadRodrigues]

Covenant is weak. A medium base that counts as a small? C'mon. Vassal is pretty stinky too. He doesn't even have a melee attack!! Redeemer loses as well. Never hits anything, and his beak is round.

Yes, you got it. But those 3 are even worse:

Harbinger: Large base, easy to hit and worst stats in the game (MAT 3!!)

Avatar: A Jack, that doesn't benefit from battlegroup buffs and that can't be allocated FOC to. And thats for 11 points!!!

And worst of all: The choir!!! I mean P+S: 6 !!! ***? I never killed anything with them.

[Lanz]

Covenant is weak. A medium base that counts as a small? C'mon.

I thought it was a large that counted as a small?

[MoDination]

And worst of all: The choir!!! I mean P+S: 6 !!! ***? I never killed anything with them.

You never tried hard enough. If choir can damage a titan (and they have) they can certainly kill! (and they can) I think you must be using them wrong if they aren't your first unit into melee. Can't kill if you don't go into melee!

[AmonadRodrigues]

You never tried hard enough. If choir can damage a titan (and they have) they can certainly kill! (and they can) I think you must be using them wrong if they aren't your first unit into melee. Can't kill if you don't go into melee!

Maybe you are right. Next game I will play them more offensively and give them some buff. Ignite would be really nice on them I think. And singing while burning enemies is very, very agreeable to menoth.

[MoDination]

You know, I'm actually going to try that :/ I think it will confuse my opponent so much that it will work. Might even take Rhupert to give them terror. With 3 choir I can afford to lose one if it doesn't work. They also have an 11" threat range...

[Lanz]

Choir with terror, ignite, and fire-on-hit from the covenant.

There's no way it could lose! Our new melee beatstick unit imo.

[MoDination]

I expect their UA will give them prey and anatomical precision

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

Man, I'm shocked. Straight up shocked. I can't beleive how huge some peoples lists are. I think some people have yet to grasp the new MKII environment, and are still weeping in the corner over the things they "lost".


My list is tiny.

Allegiant

.... Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Vengers are kinda bad, but that's a problem with cavalry in general, not the vengers. I really like everything else. Deliverers got exactly what they needed with their fancy CRA. Zealots are so incredibly cheap, they're still worth it. The Seneschal has two weaponmaster attacks, and easy access to knockdown. Repenters are MEAN with access to the choir and ancillary attack.


I just don't get it boys. I just don't get it. Garth, why do you play this faction if your list of bad models is THAT huge?

[Tuckers]

Just wondering, but is there anything that is kinda useless? It sounds like the answer is no, but lemme give an example.
Over in Cryx, the only unit I think is completely useless is Drudges. Nothing they do that another unite doesn't do for less/or do it better. Is there is similar unit? I am not saying a useless unit, but one that "got dealt the bad hand"

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Just wondering, but is there anything that is kinda useless? It sounds like the answer is no, but lemme give an example.
Over in Cryx, the only unit I think is completely useless is Drudges. Nothing they do that another unite doesn't do for less/or do it better. Is there is similar unit? I am not saying a useless unit, but one that "got dealt the bad hand"

Not really, no. Everything has use. Some more than others. but in MKII, I can see a reason to own pretty much anything in protectorate.

[Bruan]

Allegiant!

I've used him about 5 or 6 times. He always gets destroyed by a boosted melee attack. He's probably good for engaging units, but his ability to engage jacks is extremely limited. I do have a hard time remembering to roll for tough though. :P

[Ganmeyde]

Nothing sucks. Some things are just more situational than others, and only shine in larger games and/or scenario play.

I mean, I've never seen anyone praise the glory of the Mk1 Marauder, but when the Scenario is "Knock a ****ing building down"... you can guess how awesome they are.

Seneschal is great, in higher-point Infantry lists, and good enough in very low point games to be worth taking.

Nothing more fun than spending three points in a 15-pt match to send Drago flying over Vlad with one Knight.

Vengers are good in VERY large games, when the impact and ride-by attacks can be used better. Plus, they make a great first wave to take control points or the like. 14/21 after taking damage with Defender's Ward on them.

Allegiant is a great harasser. Deliverers own massed infantry. Zealots are still 8 POW blast damage on the cheap. Cleansers/Repenters? eFeora loves them. Rhoven is nice when facing debuff-centric lists. Castigator has two-hand throws and 18 POW fists with Choir buffage, never mind his infantry-clearing power.

Idrians are expensive, and they -need- the UA to stand a chance, but they can lay some major hurt down on important enemy infantry/solo targets and give us another AD option.

And how in the HELL is the Fire of Salvation on a list? I mean, really? Obviously not the best choice against Khador/Skorne, but one Focus to boost all his attacks and give him Berserk lets him rip Warbeasts to shreds.

Vilmon... meh. He's okay for three. I'd rather run two pallies for 4 than him for 3, but he's not terrible, and he's great if you have low-CMD infantry. (I run Exemplars, so he's redundant there)

Gravus... okay, you've got me there. I can't think of why I'd pay 5 points for him. He's competing with a min unit of KE(E) in my lists, and that's not too favorable a comparison. On the other hand, his sculpt is awesome, and he's not BAD... just at a bad price point, given the other things likely to be in a list with him. Of course, he also lets you potentially drop the Covenant if you run -that- many Exemplars, so he could be considered a three pointer!

Bastions are amazing, but they suffer from being slow as molasses, with no really good ways to boost their movement that aren't caster-derived. With Harby they're pretty damn good.

[Lanz]

Allegiant gets my vote as lowest, but even he isn't terrible, just restricted. It's kinda like a paladin, except focused on defense rather than armor, and quantity of attacks over quality. Allegiants really need a vilmon-esque solo to give them a good second stance, then they'd be good.

Allegiant isn't bad, it's just waiting on an update. In it's element, it would outclass a paladin(against models that lack ways to improve mat, but otherwise hit hard), and can kill 2 infantry a turn to the paladin's 1 per turn.

Since they cost the same, most will take the paladins, with vilmon, and the paladins become better than an allegiant, so most will take paladins over the allegiant, and most lists aren't large enough(or solo-hungry enough) to take paladins and allegiants.

Next to that, I'd say Vengers suck.

Actually, I put vengers ontop of the allegiant. They really suck. We easily got the worst of the faction's cavalry. Khador cav basically have Battle-Driven at all times(just instead its PS16 lances, pathfinder on the charge, and defensive line), and they have critical knock-down, and trade PS9 weaponmaster for 2 PS10 attacks. Their friggin horses have critical knock down. Cygnar cav get short-ranged magic attacks with a chain-lightning effect. Cryx cav get... cryx stuff(they're light cav, so they don't really directly compare anyhow). All we got special with our cav is Blessed Lances, which usually don't make a difference, unless you're charging vlad or something.

[PG_Fellio]

I really value the Repenter. With Choir hymn and Vassal giving him another shot, he clears out infantry with ease. Not to mention it can be easy to catch a caster in the template to cause fire, which is very dangerous to them!

[Marius]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.

Do you and I play the same game? Seriously, i see so many posts of yours about things being supposedly crap that i really wonder.

[Mutton]

I can't justify the Seneschal in a competitive game nowadays; he's a point too pricy and needs to ignore base size. Outside of that, nothing feels too bad; Castigator is meh, but it's more a victim of the point scale than anything else.

[Blackraine]

I disagree with the Seneschal... he still does exactly what I used him for in Mk. I, which is clear things out of Feora's way so she can light up some poor warcaster that thought he was gonna hide from her.

As for what "sucks"... well, the Allegiant solo is definitely on the low end of the power curve, and Rhoven (while cool and useful) isn't even on the same playing field as the Withershadow Combine or the Black 13th (though, to be fair, it's more that Gias and Cassian are useless, not the whole unit). Vengers are pretty far down the list for me, as well, but that's mostly a function of their lack of hitpoints... killing a 5 wound model with 17 armor is way too easy for the point investment, imo.

As far as Warcasters go... I think that the change to Epic Feora's feat, combined with the recent proliferation of Immunity:Fire, makes her a difficult caster to take to tournaments. She's great most of the time, but like Morvhanna with Circle, there's a good chance that you'll run into at least one army at the tournament that's largely or completely immune to basically everything that makes her cool.

It is, however, really hard to judge "what sucks" until we see the themed lists. The ones I've seen for Retribution go a long way toward making otherwise "meh" models worth taking.

[jandrese]

This is more a list of things that I don't like, but here goes:

Knights Errant -- Just don't have the killing power I'm looking for, nor particularly good survivability, nor speed. Their special ability shuts down my own stuff more often than enemy stuff to boot.
Deliverers -- Rocket Volley is alright, but the unit is way too expensive and normal splashes just aren't strong enough.
Allegiant -- Have not tested him with tough yet, but I'm fully expecting those P+S 9 fists to let me down yet again.
Vilmon -- Does everything a normal Paladin can do at 50% more points.
Seneshcal -- Still only particularly good when fighting noobs. Everybody else knows how to counter him and his relatively high 3 point cost.
Castigator -- Overshadowed by the Vanqisher at the same point value, especially since the Vanquisher makes much better use of Ancillary Attack. Should have been our 7 point jack.
Jury is still out on Cleansers. They look a lot more usable on paper, but I have not playtested enough to know if they're good yet.
Zealots -- Sad as it is, they really don't hit any harder than TFG, and are much much less survivable.
Bastions are teetering on the brink. ARM 16 is really just disappointing on them, even if they can keep their number of attacks up longer than most factions. They do have 40 wounds in a full unit, and aren't horribly expensive, so I can't call them bad, but they aren't nearly as tough as they might look on paper, and if I wanted a 5/8 unit of beatsticks, I would have taken Knights Exemplar.

That may sound like a lot, but it really leaves a lot of options open. Plus, just because something is not optimal doesn't mean you can't use it. I like pulling out gimpy models and giving them a spin again. Maybe they'll surprise me this time (usually not).