what "sucks" in menoth?

[BurlyBastard]

this discussion is useless. Seems like some people are strictly theory machining what models can and can't do.
Each unit/jack has a function, doesn't mean they are bad if you can't figure out how to use them.
Solos are now a luxury in your list. You have to have a plan to make them worth while.
We've still yet to see the full armory of menoth and i can see tier lists offering free solo "seneschal"

[Marius]

this post is useless. Seems like some people are strictly theorizing about what people are and arn't theorizing about.

Fixed . Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm only being semi serious there.

This thread does have some theory and it also has some real experience. It's not useless at all, putting your views on what you think is "useless" then having someone else point out a way to use them to good effect is a vital function of our community.

[Blackraine]

I doubt they'll give us a free 3 point solo... none of the Themed lists I've seen so far do anything of the sort. What it might do is increase the FA or give them advance deploy. It might even make all relic blades blessed or something. But a free solo is probably outside the types of effects they're looking at for themed lists.

[PG_n00buaddib]

Sweet, raise FA of Allegiant. :P

Btw, Rhoven doesn't seem to be on many people's lists. I honestly forgot to put him on mine. Now...while not strictly bad, he's still not good enough for me to spend 4 points on him and his two dudes. I get a Jack for that! And that's something I totally agree on with jandrese. Many things don't 'suck', you just never take 'em because something else does their role equally well or a tad better at maybe a lesser price. My list could practically mirror your own and I could probably add a few things, but that's again probably due to playstyle. I never used cav, I never used shooty units (I don't even use Widowmakers in my Khadoran army 80% of the time), I never used AD units (altough I'm starting to see the need for one and I'll get a min unit of Errants or Idrians just to deny my opponent objectives). I still belive eKreoss's a bit sub par compared to our other casters and how the army works though.

[Defenstrator]

Dervish
Devout
FoS
Cleanser
Deliverer
Paladins
Vilmon
Idrians
Castigator
Zealots
Monolith Bearer
Vengers
Rhoven
Allegiant
Seneschal
Gravus

NO NYSS HUNTERS!!!



This is why PoM has so many auto-includes. Most of the other stuff is much too weak. The rest is ok or even very good.

I'm going to assume this is some kind of sarcasm. There is nothing on this list could really be descibed as bad. The Allegiant is weakish. The cav a little expensive (like everyone's). That's about it. And these people complaining about the Repenters. My jaw actually opened in shock. With the Choir this 4 point jack is moving up and hosing me down at RAT 7 POW 14 with auto-fire. With a couple of focus that can kill a warcaster by itself.

[SteveinNYC]

Castigator is good for Menoth due to being one of our faster heavies. Also, the two 16(18) fists can scrap a jack easily.

The Castigator's not good at taking out jacks. We've got plenty of jacks the same speed as the Castigator, the Fire of Salvation is much faster with Righteous Vengeance and the Castigator's fists are weaker than most of our other jacks once you start buying extra attacks, which you'll need to do to scrap a jack.

I'm hoping eFeora's Escort will make it easier to get the Castigator's Combustion off, which will then turn around and feed eFeora's love of fire.

[Exemplar's_Gaze]

Honestly I don't think anything sucks, and everything we have can be useful in certain situations. There are models I hardly ever use though:

Guardian - Not worth his points, and I would always rather have a Reckoner
Rhoven & Bodyguards - Only ever use in high point games
Deliverers - Would always rather take another unit
Cleansers - See Deliverers
Gravus - Only take him in Epic Kreoss lists, which I don't field very often

Like I said, none of them are bad. They just don't see much board time.

[WarJack Prime]

I don't think any models truely suck, but for me there are only a few models I'll probably rarely, if ever, take in MKII.

1) Guardian: It's too slow plus he lost the Retribution rule which was really cool. I'd consider taking it with eFeora because she can increase its SPD to 6 but I'd rather have a heavy that can shoot or is cheap. The Guardian doesn't do much that a Crusader can't for less points, but it's not a bad model.

2) Rhoven & Co.: I'd rather have a light jack. They seem to situational rather than useful and they aren't that survivable anymore. This unit does seem bad (ie sucks).

3) Allegiant: We just have too many better solos to bother with this guy. As such he isn't bad just kinda pointless. I'd say he sucks. Why not take a Seneschal or Vilmon?

4) Devout: I've yet to take him since MKII. I'd rather have jacks that can dish out damage. I never liked paying for a jack that babysits a caster or model, and now that defensive strike is worthless I'd rather have a Repenter or Redeemer. Again, not a bad light but nothing special. I'm probably spoiled from MKI.

For those that don't like the Repenter, keep in mind it's a second wave jack. You have to hold it back until the melee starts, then open up the sprays. I take him all the time now in MKII.

[Lanz]

Rhoven isn't bad, really. His biggest problem, imo, is the lack of independance between him and his bodyguard. If they could, say, charge, while he could cast spells, they'd be perfect.

When you break it down, Gius and Cassian are fantastic models for 1 point each. They have destructive power equal to a Knight Exemplar, except with blessed and reach.

Rhoven himself, is like a 2 point buff/caster solo, and at that cost, is probably slightly better than most 2pt caster solos.

Overall, if you look at the three models as solos, they are all above the curve for their cost compared to similar models, the reason they are so cheap is because they are not solos and have to function as a group.

I don't have them, so this is theory based on their stats, but if I had the models, with Rhoven's decent command range, I'd have Gius and Cassian the full 10" away, fighting in the front-line with the other exemplar, with the Visgoth hanging back and buffing, using them -like- they're solos. They do have the advantage over the other 3-man teams that because they have pretty much 0 synergy with eachother, you're free to spread them out without worrying what kind of impact it will have on their performance.

[Ganmeyde]

Rhoven isn't bad, really. His biggest problem, imo, is the lack of independance between him and his bodyguard. If they could, say, charge, while he could cast spells, they'd be perfect.

When you break it down, Gius and Cassian are fantastic models for 1 point each. They have destructive power equal to a Knight Exemplar, except with blessed and reach.

Rhoven himself, is like a 2 point buff/caster solo, and at that cost, is probably slightly better than most 2pt caster solos.

Overall, if you look at the three models as solos, they are all above the curve for their cost compared to similar models, the reason they are so cheap is because they are not solos and have to function as a group.

I don't have them, so this is theory based on their stats, but if I had the models, with Rhoven's decent command range, I'd have Gius and Cassian the full 10" away, fighting in the front-line with the other exemplar, with the Visgoth hanging back and buffing, using them -like- they're solos. They do have the advantage over the other 3-man teams that because they have pretty much 0 synergy with eachother, you're free to spread them out without worrying what kind of impact it will have on their performance.

I think people are more disappointed about the lack of synergy than Rhoven and Co. being "bad". They're good, but boring and they don't work together at all.

[MoDination]

Repenter would see constant field time if TFG had immunity to fire so you could simply spray through them.

Gravus is extremely disappointing to me now, as the reason I purchased him was to buff my cav which he doesn't do anymore, so he is nothing more than a 5 point beatstick on a horse.

Guardian is an expensive arcnode with the same armor as a revenger while being to slow to actually do much of anything. If his flags acted as a std. bearer he might be worth his cost, or slightly interesting.

[Soylent]

I like Gravus. SPD8, reach, magic weapon, weapon master, chain weapon, up to 3 souls, cav rules, 15 wounds that takes atleast two hits to take out. Sure he's 5 points but he's a solid pick if you're taking KE or Errants. He fits well in some of my lists.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

Guardian is an expensive arcnode with the same armor as a revenger while being to slow to actually do much of anything. If his flags acted as a std. bearer he might be worth his cost, or slightly interesting.

The Guardian is there for when you don't want to chose between a heavy and an arc node. He's got the hitting power and boxes the Revenger lacks, and can be used as a focal point to draw enemies in. In this, he functions well, especially now that the spear got a more useful ability then set defense. He just plain will not miss with charge attacks

[Ganmeyde]

Yeah, Gravus is great with large numbers of Exemplar. Four weaponmaster attacks with chain weapon and reach means pain, and he keeps your errants from being knocked down so that the covenant can either be dropped, or used to light their crossbows on fire.

(I take back what I posted earlier, I forgot soul tokens could be used for more attacks. That totally lets him get around his points-inefficiency. He's one of the best Arc-node killers in the faction, as well as a great shieldwall breaker.)

[Burn]

The most useless one I can see so far is the allegiant. It seems his abilities are geared towards solo assassination, but his stats are too weak. If he hit harder, he might be worth it, and by harder, I mean another 5 POW. If not, some niffy ability to tie up units for as long as possible.

Rhoven seems very specialised against horde and stealth reliant cryx lists, other than that, like others has said, there is practically no synnergy between him and his bodyguards. It seems like his bodyguards want to get stuck in ASAP, while he wants to sit back and help people out, its hard to do both at the same time....

Everything else seems to have some sort of use. A guardian is a cross between a heavy and an arc node. Its not too specialised, but that's what you pay for a multi-use jack, and you can save on both.

I think everything sort of got eclipsed by vassal x2, covenant, choir, vanquisher, avatar (and maybe reckoner), because they're so good. Take the Castigator as an example. Its a pretty good jack on it own, but the moment you factor the extra attack from the vassal, you find that a reckoner or vanquisher is far better using that attack... Even tanks like bastions seem eclipsed by an avatar. It can run around, gaze, absorb everything, but thanks to enliven, it's utility as a tank becomes far better. Also, not only can it tank, it can pretty much do anything else well...

What's up with the bastion hate btw? When MK2 preview first came out, I remember that they were up there with the vassal as one of the new 'broken'... If you can spread your damage well enough, they can absorb way more than 40 points of damage, you can hit jacks hell hard, fight with infantry, bog them down and kill them, screen your all too precious vassals, covenants and choirs, take shots, etc. With protection of menoth, they become even better. Probably their only problem is speed, but even then, they're faster than TFG on the move, as TFG has to keep their shieldwall up, while bastions can run around...

[MoDination]

I like Gravus. SPD8, reach, magic weapon, weapon master, chain weapon, up to 3 souls, cav rules, 15 wounds that takes atleast two hits to take out. Sure he's 5 points but he's a solid pick if you're taking KE or Errants. He fits well in some of my lists.

See thats the problem, I don't currently or plan to nor have I ever run KE/KEE so gravus is only a spd 8 beatstick for me. When I got him he ran fine for his points since he helped my cav, now he is in my lists for his points/effectivenss. I'm not saying he is -bad- at all, I am just saying that he no longer does what I got him for and what he does for me now, he is expensive and a waste of money since I can fill the same role with cheaper models that I already owned before I got him.

[brimmstorm]

Keep in mind I only have about 15 games in with Menoth all being Mk2.

The only thing I don't really like are the Order of the Fist solos. Getting tough helps them out but still not enough imo.

While other things might not be as powerful as other options in the list I can still find uses for them. Like I still use Vilmon and Paladins in my Harbinger list. I use Cav with ToM. I use Rhoven with pKreoss ect.....I think Menoth made out like bandits when Mk2 hit and got a well rounded list when you get past the auto includes of Vassal, Choir, Covenents, Avatar.

Bastions I really like and use them in every list where I have Defenders Ward. Without it they are just to easy to kill imo. Ask Khador players about Demo Corps now, something with the Bastions just slighly better at absorbing the damage.

-brimmstorm

[Ganmeyde]

The most useless one I can see so far is the allegiant. It seems his abilities are geared towards solo assassination, but his stats are too weak. If he hit harder, he might be worth it, and by harder, I mean another 5 POW. If not, some niffy ability to tie up units for as long as possible.

Rhoven seems very specialised against horde and stealth reliant cryx lists, other than that, like others has said, there is practically no synnergy between him and his bodyguards. It seems like his bodyguards want to get stuck in ASAP, while he wants to sit back and help people out, its hard to do both at the same time....

Everything else seems to have some sort of use. A guardian is a cross between a heavy and an arc node. Its not too specialised, but that's what you pay for a multi-use jack, and you can save on both.

I think everything sort of got eclipsed by vassal x2, covenant, choir, vanquisher, avatar (and maybe reckoner), because they're so good. Take the Castigator as an example. Its a pretty good jack on it own, but the moment you factor the extra attack from the vassal, you find that a reckoner or vanquisher is far better using that attack... Even tanks like bastions seem eclipsed by an avatar. It can run around, gaze, absorb everything, but thanks to enliven, it's utility as a tank becomes far better. Also, not only can it tank, it can pretty much do anything else well...

What's up with the bastion hate btw? When MK2 preview first came out, I remember that they were up there with the vassal as one of the new 'broken'... If you can spread your damage well enough, they can absorb way more than 40 points of damage, you can hit jacks hell hard, fight with infantry, bog them down and kill them, screen your all too precious vassals, covenants and choirs, take shots, etc. With protection of menoth, they become even better. Probably their only problem is speed, but even then, they're faster than TFG on the move, as TFG has to keep their shieldwall up, while bastions can run around...

Bastions are just too slow, which seriously hurts their utility in objective-based games.

[jandrese]

After reading the Monk article in the latest NQ, I have to say that I'm bummed the Allegiant doesn't work that way.

Imagine a solo where at the start of every turn you choose one of three stances:

1. Defensive: Basically Shifting Winds stance but against ranged/magic only
2. Retribution: Gains +1 DEF and Riposte
3. Attack: +2 on attack/damage rolls

I'd probably field him in that form. It gives him a toolbox to counter his somewhat disappointing stats.

[MoDination]

If they kept shifting winds and just added the attack he'd be amazing. ignite + 2 atk/dmg and he'd be making a mess of everything with PS 13 weapon master...

[Demeritus]

My rarely take list is as follows

Zealots
Devout
Guardian
Castigator
Deliverers
Rhoven & Co
Repenter (still don't like this thing)
Idrians
Allegiant
Bastions

[Bruan]

I'm convinced his primary purpose is to tarpit units with MAT 5-7. Anything with higher MAT, and he'll be dropped like a bad habit.

[jandrese]

If they kept shifting winds and just added the attack he'd be amazing. ignite + 2 atk/dmg and he'd be making a mess of everything with PS 13 weapon master...

That's still 1 less than the P+S of a Paladin...

[Bruan]

I'm still going to use them, just to see if they're worth anything against units. I'll just send him 'shifting stanced' into units. Hopefully the increased defense and perfect balance'll keep him together.

[brotherscott]

What I have found so far in MK II is that my core build is still solid. Choir, TFG + UA, Zealots + UA, and build from there.

I think a lot of folks are forgetting the Tiered lists are on their way. I don't see anything that is a "bad" model. That being said, some models don't make sense with other models, therefore they don't build overall synergy within the army. Trying to force an Allegiant to work in an Exemplar army (just as an example) will leave a bad taste for using that model. Idrians supporting a pair of Allegiants might work better.

It really depends on the style of the player and how willing to experiment they are.

[Oilslick]

Most things have their place in certain lists. The Allegiant is definitely a problem, the Exemplar Errants still seem a bit underwhelming, but at least they are cheaper now, the castigator is hurt by the POW increase of the open fist or other jacks more than anything else, and Vilmon and the Seneschal may not be worth their points. The change on Vilmon to one melee attack being the main thing. I'd say that's my list.

[Mutton]

I have to laugh at everyone who thinks Errants are underwhelming; they're probably the best infantry in Menoth. They hit decently hard, can kill anything short of a shieldwall at range, and are quite probably the greatest tarpit in the game.

[Lanz]

I use Errants as my main infantry, I think they're awesome. They do everything. They aren't the best, and don't cause much damage to targets arm18+, but below that they shred things, their ranged attacks aren't spectacular, but they are still a ranged attack on what would normally be a melee model. They are also much tougher than normal exemplar, and are the largest single exemplar squad we have.

First match I did with my EE after buying them, they killed a Journeymen warcaster, Hunter, Charger, and Strangeways all in one spread charge... Then got raped by an Ironclad, despite reasonable rolls, hence the conclusion of not working too well against higher arm values. They are beyond awesome with a Seneschal in the group, and are probably the best unit in our faction for receiving piper buffs. Or any buffs for that matter. Whether offense or defense, a unit buff will usually see better results on Errants than any other unit.

[Ganmeyde]

I have to laugh at everyone who thinks Errants are underwhelming; they're probably the best infantry in Menoth. They hit decently hard, can kill anything short of a shieldwall at range, and are quite probably the greatest tarpit in the game.

And they kill the shieldwalls with covenant-lit flaming crossbows of doom.

Plus, 12/16 is a very nice defensive statline. Throw in DW/IR from either Kreoss and they have 12(14)/18 and their Tarpit-ness goes to over nine thousand.

[Lanz]

And they kill the shieldwalls with covenant-lit flaming crossbows of doom.

Plus, 12/16 is a very nice defensive statline. Throw in DW/IR from either Kreoss and they have 12(14)/18 and their Tarpit-ness goes to over nine thousand.

Errants + Defenders Ward + Dirge of Mists(piper) = def 15, arm 18, terror.

Scary errants. I shall call them... Scarrants.

Edit: + fire from covenant = Flaming Scarrants.

[Ganmeyde]

I just wish piper still had +2 move. I'd love to have bastions/cinerators actually in the front of my army to soak up hits.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

True but:
TFG + Defenders Ward + Dirge of Mists = def 16, arm 15, terror. If popped mini-feat arm 19, if shield walled 19, combination of arm 23. If charged they are def 18 which is well over the bell curve for most models to hit even with boosted to hit rolls. Oh and they can run and pop mini-feat.

[Ganmeyde]

True but:
TFG + Defenders Ward + Dirge of Mists = def 16, arm 15, terror. If popped mini-feat arm 19, if shield walled 19, combination of arm 23. If charged they are def 18 which is well over the bell curve for most models to hit even with boosted to hit rolls. Oh and they can run and pop mini-feat.

And they have little offensive punch, no pathfinder, no advanced deployment, and a much lower threat range.

Hell, TFG will probably be right behind Errants on the frontlines in most lists, given AD. The Errants are a hard-hitting Tarpit, while the TFG need other things to kill stuff for them, barring one or two big CMAs.

[Lanz]

Errants also don't need to be a tightly-packed B2B brick to get their armor. Errants can be spread out, and only have 1 less armor, and don't have to worry about blasts flying over their heads, hitting them from behind, and denying the shield wall(and wiping out half the squad since they're so bunched up). Or flails, their shields are immune to chain weapons. Because they're awesome.

[der13manner]

Errrants vs TFG is entirely a user preference, they both do a decent job in slightly different ways, but at the end of the day they move your army forward and do some amount of damage on the way in. 2 man CMA's from TFG do a great job of killing infantry for me.

Gerrick

[Lanz]

Errrants vs TFG is entirely a user preference, they both do a decent job in slightly different ways, but at the end of the day they move your army forward and do some amount of damage on the way in. 2 man CMA's from TFG do a great job of killing infantry for me.

Gerrick

Errants look way cooler though, so that automatically makes them better.

[der13manner]

Errants look way cooler though, so that automatically makes them better.

Errants are pretty awesome, but I kinda like how the TFG paint up too

[Soylent]

I have to laugh at everyone who thinks Errants are underwhelming; they're probably the best infantry in Menoth. They hit decently hard, can kill anything short of a shieldwall at range, and are quite probably the greatest tarpit in the game.

Your comment started well enough till you said they're the best infantry in Menoth. Good? Yes. Best? No.

[Lanz]

Personally Kights Exemplar seem to be the best. They get a lot of use for a reletively low cost.

[Mutton]

Your comment started well enough till you said they're the best infantry in Menoth. Good? Yes. Best? No.

To be fair, I run a 'jack heavy Menoth, so they fit my purposes the best. They aren't the best with say, Silent Bob, but work with my playstyle perfectly. I think that they are good enough at what they do that they are arguable the best infantry; comes down to playstyle and tactics really.