The Grenadier

[Nargacuga]

Just a quick question for the Cygnarians.

Has anyone had much success fielding the Grenadier without Trenchers?

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Can't think of why you'd even try...

Guess that makes me a "no".

[ZenBattleLust]

Without any trenchers? Or are models like Finn, TCG, and the trencher cannon okay? Because without any trenchers, it's just way too expensive for a mediocre aoe at 5 points.

[DrBaltar]

I had 2 and sold one
I ve tried both with Trenchers and pStryker/Kraye, but with less success...
He could be nice with the GM UA and some Trenchers near to him...

[Nargacuga]

The reason I ask is because Legion has a virtually identical model to the Grenadier in the Teraph. But fielding a Teraph is like fielding a Grenadier without trenchers as the Teraph has no way to shoot more than once a turn.

As a Legion player, I can't think of a reason to ever field our 5 point AD + Dig-in single-AOE light beast. Apparently, Cygnar players feel the same about the Grenadier without trenchers.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

And your point was?

[Nargacuga]

The Hordes FT is wrapping up and I was trying to get a feel for Cygnar's experiences with the Grenadier (sans Trenchers) to refine my feedback concerning the Teraph.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

oops, wrong thread

[masleth]

I wouldn't play them without trenchers. I might use the Dude to marshall them, but I'd have the trenchers handy to load the launcher. Otherwise it seems like wasted points. Its even worse than Stormclads w/o Stormblades.

[ZenBattleLust]

But comparing jacks to beasts is an inherently flawed proposition. If a grenadier earned me 2-3 focus per turn, hell's yeah I'd take it without trenchers. Same if it could heal its gun should it get damaged, had an animus, and also had eyeless sight, which is pretty sweet on a ranged model.

I just don't think it makes sense to try to compare the stat lines of jacks to beasts. The systems are too freakin' different.

[leo_neil316]

The reason I ask is because Legion has a virtually identical model to the Grenadier in the Teraph. But fielding a Teraph is like fielding a Grenadier without trenchers as the Teraph has no way to shoot more than once a turn.

As a Legion player, I can't think of a reason to ever field our 5 point AD + Dig-in single-AOE light beast. Apparently, Cygnar players feel the same about the Grenadier without trenchers.

The teraph has eyeless sight, one less def, one more arm, counterblast and is better in melee.

So....... yeah grenadiers worse.

[Nargacuga]

The teraph has eyeless sight, one less def, one more arm, counterblast and is better in melee.

So....... yeah grenadiers worse.

Not quite..

Teraph advantages over Grenadier
1) Eyeless sight
2) Pathfinder
3) Reach on the tail
4) Animus (pretty bad)
5) +1 POW on the ranged attack.
6) +1 ARM

Grenadier Advantages over Teraph:
1) +1 MAT and RAT
2) +4 Damage boxes
3) +1 DEF
4) Arcing Fire
5) non-elemental damage on ranged attack
6) ROF:3 when in b2b with trenchers

I think that the ROF:3 is where the Grenadier actually becomes a viable option in Cygnar lists. From the responses thus far, I gather that Cygnar players don't bother with it unless they are already bringing trenchers.

So you can see the inherent problems with the Teraph.

[Kenjiro]

It could be good if it wasn't 100% dependent on overpriced, easy to kill, mediocre units (kill the unit and neuter the jack, its a 2 for 1 for your opponents, terrible design) . And lets not forget its range 10 yet fragile as a jack can be, not a good combo.

[Dyoria]

Lol comparing a light jack to a light beast...

Zenbattlelust said it best. If the grenadier gave me 3 focus a turn I would take it. Fury mechanic trumps the focus mechanic. Always.

Plus the Animus isnt that bad. Slap it on eThagrosh. A sp10 pow12 with continous fire, 2 damage types, critical stationary, OUTSIDE of your turn... I cant possibly see a use for that. Nope.


Teraph is fine.

[Nargacuga]

Lol comparing a light jack to a light beast...

Zenbattlelust said it best. If the grenadier gave me 3 focus a turn I would take it. Fury mechanic trumps the focus mechanic. Always.

Plus the Animus isnt that bad. Slap it on eThagrosh. A sp10 pow12 with continous fire, 2 damage types, critical stationary, OUTSIDE of your turn... I cant possibly see a use for that. Nope.


Teraph is fine.

I suggest you play that build and then get back to me. There are FAR better beast options you can use with eThagrosh as well as far better uses for his fury.

Also you talk about 2 damage types as being a boon. There is ZERO benefit to having damage types on a weapon. It just means that something out there is immune to it and with 2 types, it means that even MORE models are immune (IIRC if you are immune to one type you are immune to the whole attack)

I also don't buy the blanket "you can't compare jacks to beasts" argument. Sure there are differences, but both WM and H play the same point scale, Casters and Warlocks have the same amount of jack/beast points on average. And any benefit that a beast has by generating fury is offset by a Warlock being unable to. Additionally, the frenzy mechanic, lower armor, less hit boxes, slightly higher cost, etc. all factor in as well.

My question really has nothing to do with the WM/H issue, it was essentially:

Would you spend 5 points on the Grenadier without his additional shots?

[Defenstrator]

The Teraph is kind of blah. To be honest so is the Grenedier. He's weak in melee, short ranged, has a suck damage grid, and paper for armour. The only thing that makes him worth it on the table is getting 3 shots for zero focus cost.

And I feel that Trenchers are his best option. The Chain Gun and Cannon are both too imobile, and kind of bad units besides.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Yeah, I mean thats kind of the other side of this.

Ask me if I ever take the Grenadier with trenchers.

[Jorek]

Ask me, if I ever take Trenchers anymore...

[Nargacuga]

Was it the cloud nerf?

[Dyoria]

Having used Quick Draw a lot on A+H since MK1 and that order on the ATGM, I can attest that shooting outside your turn rocks. In the case of that animus, it has a lot less restrictive then Quick fire as it is not dependent on having the attacker shoot you, but rather just move within CMD range. And the animus gives you a chance to kill something, (or a lot of things with the case of eThagrosh) outside of your turn, which gains you an advantage.

I dont think the Teraph is meh at all. Its sorta like a charger. A range 10 Pow13 AOE3 shot has a lot of uses. Especially when you dont have to plan allocations to boost. POW 13 kills solos. Moreso then POW12. The AOE 3 also means that it has the chance of clipping more then one target. Boost those damage rolls. Pow 7 + 3d6 still kills shield walled infantry (I know because I Arcane Inferno a lot of shield walled infantry. POW 9 +2d6 kills just as well as POW 7+3d6)

It also has eyeless sight. Great to kill Choir and rear rankers.

You cannot compare the Grenadier to the Teraph. The Grenadier cannot increase caster focus, or boost when it needs it despite allocation. It also cannot be transfered wounds from the caster. Sure they are both AD, Dig In, 5 point modesl with an AOE3 attack, but they play VERY different roles.

I would play one.

If I were fielding trenchers, I would field a grenadier. They are both worth 5 points. 4 would be way too little.

[ZenBattleLust]

I also don't buy the blanket "you can't compare jacks to beasts" argument. Sure there are differences, but both WM and H play the same point scale, Casters and Warlocks have the same amount of jack/beast points on average. And any benefit that a beast has by generating fury is offset by a Warlock being unable to. Additionally, the frenzy mechanic, lower armor, less hit boxes, slightly higher cost, etc. all factor in as well.

No, you really can't. I don't even find warmachine faction to other warmachine factions comparable. There are only two things that matter when you put a list together: 1) Does this model make my list better? 2) Is there something else that I could put in its place to make it even better? If the answer to 1 is yes, and the answer to 2 is no, then the model is good enough for your faction and you put the model in your list. It doesn't matter what other factions have access to; you don't have access to it yourself.

Now you might be able to make a case that the Teraph should be made better because Legion has access to much better option and so the Teraph will never be able to find a home in a competitive list. But if your basic argument is, "Cygnar players wouldn't take this model as is, they have something better," you aren't going to move the game designer's much. That's like a Cygnar player complaining that they won't take a Centurion because it doesn't have eyeless sight. The Centurion may or may not be a good jack, but what Legion has access to shouldn't even enter into the equation.

[Cygnarite]

Honestly, I've only even taken the Grenadier marahslled to the dude WITH trenchers to up his RoF. Its not that he's worthless without both, but for 5 points, why didn't I just take a charger and a stormsmith or Reinholdt?

I usually take it with Finn, The Cannon crew, and marshalled to the dude. Snipe and Thunderbolt are amazing options On a pow 12 with arcing fire.
The last game I played with them, Finn, the Cannon and the Grenadier took a Hill in the middle of the board and absorbed 2 rounds of fire while wiping out a Full unit of Sentinels with UA. if the MHSF didn't ignore Dig In, they would have been completely untouchable. At the end of the game, Finn and The cannon crew were dead, but the grenadier was untouched.

[Reemule]

I?ve had success with the Grenadier lately.

I put him right infront of the Chaingun. With the loader standing to the side of him. All of them dig in. The Chaingun has a Large base so can see over him. The Loader can shoot his rifle and the Grenadier shoots away with Templates.

This configuration has worked nice against the Elves for me lately.

[vintersbastard]

The simple fact why Cygnar players usually won't field a Grenadier without Trenchers is that the Charger offers the same Pow, with Powerful attack, and the option to buy a second shot, for less points. It's just a matter of competition.

Legion hasn't got anything that's comparable to the Charger, so for them the issue is really more whether they want a cheapish ranged beast in their list or not.

[Arkady]

6) ROF:3 when in b2b with trenchers

I think that the ROF:3 is where the Grenadier actually becomes a viable option in Cygnar lists. From the responses thus far, I gather that Cygnar players don't bother with it unless they are already bringing trenchers.

So you can see the inherent problems with the Teraph.

Ack! This is what people don't realize about the Grenadier! HE ALWAYS HAS ROF: 3! You don't need trenchers to take the extra shots, and in fact, their shots don't count against his ROF. So with 2 focus and trenchers, he can take 5 POW12 shots with arcing fire.

Arcing fire is awesome, and not just for killing casters. I've found the Grenadier invaluable vs. Menoth, for taking out those annoying support models that hang out behind shielded jackwalls. And if they sneak their support models close to their jackwall to hide from the arcing shots, I just magic up the Grenadier's weapon with Aiyana, and shoot up the jacks, boosting the blast damage against them. The weapon is even more fun if you take advantage of Rune Shot. A bunch of templates pushing enemies hit d3" away, or knocking them down on critical hits is hilarious, and makes up for the otherwise poor damage output.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Ack! This is what people don't realize about the Grenadier! HE ALWAYS HAS ROF: 3! You don't need trenchers to take the extra shots, and in fact, their shots don't count against his ROF

You sure about that?

WEAPONS [GRENADIER]
Grenade Launcher [1x] (Left) RNG: 10 ROF: 1 AOE: 3 POW: 12
Arcing Fire - When attacking with this weapon, this model can ignore intervening models except those within 1˝ of the target.
Manual Reload - This model can make one additional Grenade Launcher ranged attack during its combat action for each
Trencher model B2B with it, up to a maximum of two additional attacks. These additional attacks do not count against the
Grenade Launcherʼs ROF.

[Arkady]

If that's true, then there's something goofy with my printout and boy will my face be red. I'll have to recheck my saved pdf when I get home. Even so, the usefulness of the gun stands, although the trenchers really are mandatory (good thing I always bring some if I have a grenadier around).

[whats82]

The grenadier + chain gun module is decent, especially if the grenadier is marshalled by the gun mages.

However, when/if the chain gun dies, the grenadier rapidly become an expensive piece of weight on the table that doesn't do much. Also, chances are whatever killed the trenchers should have very little trouble killing the grenadier (things like hunter or spray that ignore cover). Grenadier have decent def but low ARM, so once he start taking damage he can be downed easily.

It's really the proliferation of Nyss hunters, MHSF and things like WG boosted sprays that make trencher suck overall, so if your opponent can't ignore their dig in bonus, it is a good 7 pt, if they do, it's a very bad 7 pt.

[TsavongLah]

Man, I would love it if the Grenadier could get off five shots a turn. I just checked my .pdf though, and it says ROF:1 as well.