Also, who said Rover is FA:C now?
Also, who said Rover is FA:C now?
I think my conclusion is it'd definitely bad...but it may fit certainly lists well enough to run.
Optimistic theory crafting pirate loving merc player.
Rocinante is a 9-pt warjack that shoots as well as or better than an 8-pt Mariner, then fights as well as or better than an 8-pt Rover, and has useful utility abilities to boot.
Yes, he's less survivable than the Rover (although more survivable than the Mariner), but the duality of his offensive abilities means you never need to commit him to a fight he's not going to win.
Judge since 5th November 2013
You hold off and boost the bought extra P+S17. Use the pow12 attack to hit something near by. How often is a grunt or solo next to a jack and you can get it in melee with a charge. Or its a free extra attack, with an opportunity to to a couple extra points, most things you'll charge with have Arm 19 which is about 45% chance of extra damage.
I've also have multiple game where a hack is swarmed by grunts, the 3 attacks lets it take them out with minimal focus. Yes the mangler beat the rover in this situation, but the rover has more in game flexibility.
On the other hand, ask yourself how often you've effectively threshered with he mariner in Mk2.
Edit: I did actually sit down and think about engaging multiple models in melee with a SPD 5, no reach warjack. I use Ol' Rowdy a lot when playing Cygnar (and, as an aside, let me just tell you that that's a comparison that makes the Rover look sodding awful), and on consideration, it's definitely not easy to make use of the incidental third attack to blat infantry targets of opportunity. You usually just won't have them, even in lists where you have the luxury of using ranged superiority to force the enemy into your engagement range.
Last edited by Robert Shepherd; 06-24-2011 at 04:54 AM.
Judge since 5th November 2013
I think this debate is going to come down to one thing: Those who like versatile jacks will like Rover, those who don't - won't. I look at it as a good single jack option. If I only have one 'jack in a list (ie. MacBain!!!!), I like to make it versatile. It may also end up being a decent jack to marshal. Probably not on everyone, but I'm going to try one with Rutger.
Spencer, would you really not pay one point for Rocinante? Def Buff, Better stats, Defensive Strike... He's the new one jack for your lists. The only caster I'd take the Rover with would be Bart, because he can literally make them silly Decent, with high arm+inmunity to knockdown and two imprecise shots a turn. And that'll be after taking rocinante for an obscenely good sniper shooter (Hotshot + Artillerist on him makes for some serious damage).
I find it slightly interesting that you are all comparing him to manglers and nomads because obviously that is what you all play.
However, I think of him more as an alternative to the mariner.
Look at the similarities.
Mariners gun is better because of AOE and range but drawback of loader.
Same highest pow, and the mariner has thresher, but not reach so it is realistically engaging 3 dudes at the most.
Well the Rover has 3 attacks to kill those same 3 trooper models. But it can move and shoot on its way over more effectively because you don't have to plan for and move a loader first. And if you are only hitting one thing in melee, not multiple things you can do it 3 times before you have to start buying attacks rather than the one melee attack the mariner gets.
So the rest of the argument is lash and amphibious vs +3 armor.
In summary I don't think it is supposed to replace any of those jacks, just give you one more great option for beating non-merc face! I feel the thing is great, and will probably have two of them. I will throw them into my Shae 50 pointer, while the 35 point list will probably maintain 2 nomads just like it does.
Last edited by Osito; 06-24-2011 at 10:09 PM.
I follow no kingdom's flag, fear no ship on the sea, and bow to no master. Blood calls for blood, and I will spill much more in the days to come.
Osito, I'm not really sure how you can compare a Rover to a Mariner. They fill different battlefield roles; front line melee warjack with some ranged utility vs back field ranged warjack with some melee capability (and despite P+S 17 it really is only 'some', since a Mariner can't stand up in melee against anything that actually hits it).
Anyway, to think a bit more positively...
Getting the most out of the Rover is going to involve taking advantage of the gun as much as possible. RAT 5 is pretty awful, but POW 14 is just good enough to warrant consideration, and RNG 10 lets you shoot from outside the threat range of some enemies.
The more I think about it, the more I think it might be wrong to say the Rover only gives you one extra P+S 12 attack over a Nomad. What he realistically gives you is an extra P+S 12, and a preemptive boosted RAT 5 POW 14 - because with that 15" threat on the gun you'll usually have the luxury of getting at least that one first strike in. It won't cripple much, but it adds up, and it might expose you to being charged, but with an 8.5" melee threat range you were probably going to get charged anyway.
I still don't know if it's enough to warrant him at 8pts, but if you're going to play to his strengths, you need to know how to make use of the gun.
I'll say one thing, I'd trade the gun on the Rockram for the gun on the Rover.
Judge since 5th November 2013
Do people really find the loader rule to be that much of a negative? Every time I use a mariner there is always some solo, or the caster, or whatnot that can function as the loader without any issues at all.
My comment re: trading the gun was a nod to the difference 2" of range makes, but yes.
I've never seen anyone actually have a problem with the Loader rule.
Judge since 5th November 2013
I used to forget Loader all over the place. But I got used to it. Eventually.
I'm also thinking about Bart with multiple Rovers, since he can be good with Batten Down the Hatches and Broadside.
I haven't even bought Wrath yet, much less tried out any new stuff.
I finally got Wrath but as you understand the Rover is not yet available for purchase and I don't proxy.
I tried it out yesterday against a Khador army (pIrusk). I played MacBain!!! I had to drop one of my usual 2 point solos to fit him in instead of my Nomad, but it wasn't too big.
The Rover is a decent jack. I used him as LOS blocker for MacBain!! most of the time. Giving him 2 focus to boost attack and damage with the gun so it could kill something worthwhile. 1 Infantry a turn just doesn't seem to be worth while. He DID however manage to kill a Man-O-War shocktroop. Very lucky roll to damage I might add. Other than that, he picked off a Doomreaver. I then shoved him into combat with his Spriggan with full focus. This is where he kind of made it for me. I did the average damage I would normally do for a Nomad (w/jack hammer + Gorman rust bomb)against a, particularly heavy, khador jack. He then took everything the Spriggan had and still had everything intact. Being Arm 22 is incredibly nice (with Fail Safe) I then managed to kill the Spriggan the following turn and still have a relatively stable heavy to keep fighting.
I eventually lost the game do to him getting some kayazy's in combat with MacBain!! but it was a fun game none the less. The Khador player didn't realize I had access to Khador jacks. :P
My verdict: Gun is blah, maybe haven't tried all possibilities with it. Arm 20 with buff = tough stuff! Can still take on heavies, but don't expect 1 turn alpha strike kill. Even with everything stacked in your favour. Stupid underpowered merc heavy's... grumble grumble...
Sorry, that's just too far away!If that's the case, I've got some breath-takingly wonderous vactaion land in South-Central Florida to sell you!! Cheap too...
I wanna put it down to the field. I have the feeling that it'll feel very khadoran in highlander games. Something akin to the destroyer. We all know what happened to it...
Well, to add my voice to the rabble, I give you this.
Things I am excited about the Rover for:
-Running him in Most Wanted with a Mule, Mangler, and Nomad. Whichever dies first, Rover picks up his buff. Snipe, Temper Metal, and Iron Aggression are all fine on him. He's a great all-rounder in a list like that. I feel like he's something pMagnus could make good use of.
-Running him with Broadsides Bart. Three Rovers at arm 23/21 is pretty scary with Broadside. It doesn't make Bart less boring to play, but it does mesh with his play style quite well.
-Running him as a backup to a Nomad, Mule, or Mangler. The Rover is great in that it can be effective anywhere in the battlefield. It can move forward, make some shots, eat a charge, and let a more dedicated 'jack get into position, or it can hang back and make a nuisance of itself and then get in the way of the enemy getting to your more dedicated 'jack. He can be your 'second Nomad' for when you need to crack heavy armor without support (cause I know I've never gotten my Nomad to scrap anything in one turn, but two usually do the job just fine).
Things I'm not excited about the Rover for:
-Running him as my one and only 'jack. When I design a list, I tend to spend my Warjack points filling a gap in my list. For busting armor, I reach for a Nomad. For sweeping infantry, a Mangler or Mule. Rover can do all of these things (busts armor nearly as well as a Nomad, sweeps infantry decently, and can do some ranged support in a pinch) but only decently.
-Running him with Drake, Ashlynn, Fiona, Damiano, or any 'jack marshal. This is the big problem part for me.
Drake wants something with Reach to abuse Jackhammer with. While Failsafe would be great on a Rover, it works just as well on a Nomad. Likewise, while Fortune is fine on the Rover, it's better on a Mangler and even better on a unit. If I want a second 'jack with Drake, it's probably something with Shield Guard. In Highborn, I might just take Gallant and nothing else. After that, Drake tends to only have 3-4 focus a turn, and boy, does it go quick.
Damiano has a similar problem to Drake. Once he gets his amazing upkeeps going, he's got 3 focus a turn to play with, and two of that is probably going to Deadeye. Damiano wants a 'jack that doesn't have to run first turn, and that's Roccinante, thanks to his 14" cannon and his strong reason to stay near his caster (Guard Dog). Top that with his Affinity and Roccinante is a no-brainer for Damiano. Like Drake, if I want a second 'jack with Damiano, it probably has Shield Guard.
When I think of Ashlynn, I don't think 'eight point 'jack'. I think 'vanguard'. Shield Guard (anyone else notice an echo in here?) is, in my mind, very important with Ashlynn. Quick Draw is great, but it won't keep her alive forever and you CAN miss with it. Shield Guard just helps her play more aggressively. If you want a heavy, well, Ashlynn works well with Gallant, who can guard her and beat face. If you want a ranged 'jack with Ashlynn, it's probably the Mule, and not Rover. If I were going to take a second 'jack for Ashlynn, it would either be a Vanguard or Roccinante, because all that extra bullet stopping or blade dodging just lets you shove her that much further down your opponent's throat.
Fiona has surprisingly little focus. Like so many of our Merc casters, she has three upkeeps for her friendly targets, and then one offensive upkeep as well. Once she gets that all rolling, she has 3-4 focus to work with (again with that echo!). To me, that means she really just wants maybe one 'jack, preferably one that can fight at range to benefit from Nonokrion Brand should she need it. Roccinante comes to the rescue here, keeping her safer with Guard Dog and Defensive Strike, and carrying a great cannon with him. He even shines in melee, at least as well as our other dedicated melee heavies, excepting the Mangler vs. mass infantry/shields, but that's ok. Rover just doesn't make sense with Fiona.
Any heavy 'jack run by a 'jack marshal loses the ability to punch through heavy armor, because it can't buy extra attacks after a charge, so that part of the Rover toolkit is out.
Sam MacHorne can Pronto the Rover into melee, so that he gets to buy a second attack, which is nice. However, Prontoing a Mule so that it can walk and aim AND get steam pressure is probably the nicer combo for 8 points. If you really are set for ranged 'jacks and want a melee option for Sam, a Rover could just work. Multiple attacks are nice for marshaling. It's a shame that the Mangler makes even more attacks for the same points cost in that situation. Also, for three points less, you get the same number of attacks out of a Vanguard on the charge, and Shield Guard to boot.
Shaw prefers a 'jack with Reach for his Flank, but he does love a 'jack with multiple attacks for his Drive: Reroll. The Rover can do well with Shaw, but only slightly better than a Vanguard, who costs three points less. All that extra P+S the Rover packs is rather wasted on infantry, and as I've mentioned, I don't think marshaled 'jacks can bust heavy armor. If you were dead set on busting heavies with Shaw, you'd want a Nomad for Reach which makes for an easier Flank.
Dirty Meg might get some good use out of the Rover. As with Shaw, however, the Vanguard does the multiple attacks infantry clearing trick just as well, if not better, and the Nomad is probably the better choice for heavy armor busting on a 'jack marshal.
-The Rover is a great second 'jack.
-Most Merc Warcasters can't run more than one or two 'jacks effectively.
-Most Merc Warcasters who do reach for a second 'jack want a 'jack with Shield Guard.
-The Vanguard and the Mangler play the Rover's 'clear infantry with multiple attacks' game as well or better than the Rover.
-The Nomad and the Mangler play the Rover's 'beat Heavies into submission' game as well or better than the Rover.
-The Mule plays the Rover's ranged support game as well or better than the Rover, and is only slightly worse in melee to boot.
-The Rover is durable, but probably not more durable than a Mangler.
Final Thoughts: If the Rover is a plastic 'jack, I will be picking a few up, by way of multijacking the kits. If it is not, I will purchase one for my pMagnus list. If we ever get a 'jack caster, I will probably leave it at one Rover, one Mule, and more Nomads.
Soul Slave + Razorworm = Lazorworm. End of joke.
PowerToast, your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Judge since 5th November 2013
Aye, a good read. Thanks for the write up.
Working on being able to field every merc teir 4 list.
My two cents:
At 7 points, Rover wouldn't compete with Mangler, Mule and Mariner. It would replace them. Maybe not Mangler if what you want is a dedicated melee heavy.
At 8 points, it competes. It's not the best jack for everything - of course not. Of course the Mangler is better in melee. It doesn't have a gun, or a shield. Of course Mule and Mariner shoot better. They're not as good in melee (except situationally, such as an ideal thresher spot for Mariner or need of reach with Mule) and still don't have a shield.
Bart, with Batten down the hatches, makes Rover almost impervious to most attacks. And when the time comes to unleash the Broadside, Rover has a decent gun too.
MacBain, with Fail Safe, won't need to worry about losing the shield.
Magnus, with Temper metal or Iron aggression, can tool the jack to either endure or enjoy three boosted melee attacks and free charges for free. How often do you really get to thresher great loads of infantry with a Mangler anyway?
For others, Rover is less cool. I know I'm reaching for a Mariner (or two) as soon as I start building a Fiona list, and Mules will always have a place in Ashlynn's lists.
Sure, for one point more you can have Rocinante, which has good weapons, good special rules and generally better stats, but only one melee attack and less durability. And you can have only one of those.
At 7 points, Rover would be too good. At 8, other options will still be often as viable or better. I call this balance. (I'm also going to get two Rovers as soon as possible.)
It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment. -Sherlock Holmes
(Doyle, A. C. 1887: A Study in Scarlet)
The Mangler would still be a better all-purpose melee warjack. Thresher + reach, chain weapon, higher pow secondary attack, and built in armor as opposed to shield or buckler. When you want a dedicated melee warjack that can perform well in every situation the Mangler would still be the best option.
The Mariner would still be the longest-range firing platform we have, has an AoE (even though it is small), and brings Lash - which a number of casters want. You would still bring this jack when you have need of superior range or you really need the anti-knockdown.
The Mule would still hit a huge number of lists simply because not much compares to that monster cannon. It has a big AoE, high POW, and a hideous critical that can win games. It also synergizes with a lot of merc abilities. In addition, the Mule has reach and is decent in melee if you need. Any jack with a ranged weapon is going to need to be pretty amazing to replace the Mule.
At 7 points I would consider using the Rover more often. At 8 points it is going to have a tougher time competing with many of the other merc heavies which are well specialized for their primary roles. I think Power Toast hit it on the head in that the Rover does get better as a secondary jack for select casters.
Just wanted to chime in how much I liked Power Toasts post. It's nice to see a well thought out analysis with reasons given as to why somethng does or doesn't work.
I pretty much agree with it as well. My first thought when seeing Rover was that it was awesome. An actually tough Merc jack that had a gun to boot. Then I started trying to work out what list to put him into and realised it was pretty tough. The extra melee threat range on the Nomad and Mangler were very valuable, and they were only one ARM less. And while the shooting was decent it wasn't going to replace the Mule or Mariner in that role. Instead it's the other jack. The all rounder you take to back up your melee jack or defend your shooting jack.
The only exception I think is Bart, who this jack is made for. I'm rather keen to experiment with a jack wall of three Rovers. Sure it will be straight forward, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.
I actually enjoy the Rover with MacBain. An odd choice, but I find that I'm not using every spell with MacBain. More over, it gives me three attacks with a warcaster that likes to spend focus, gives me decent ranged, decent melee hitting power, and decent staying power. Sure you can Energize a Mule to get up there for better range or Jackhammer with a Mangler or Nomad, but I end up doing both with the Rover. A jack of all trades for a warcaster of all trades (pun intended).
I also don't think he's necessarily a bad choice for Ashlynn. True he doesn't benefit much from the feat (lack of crits) but at the same time, he offers more staying power and is a powerful road block in a usually fragile list. If I have no one else to Quicken, I cast the spell on it and throw it up there to take a beating for a turn, while peeling back a lot as well.
I would agree at this point using him as a marshalled warjack is probably a bad idea. But
Maybe it's just the way I play, but I just seem to have more success with a warjack that has both range and melee weapons, so I was very excited to see the Rover when my buddy picked up the Wrath book. My first thought was fielding him with Magnus and having him benefit from the Iron Agression spell; charging for free and haveing three boosted melee attacks is going to leave a lot of nice options open on the table. I struggle with fielding either a Mariner or a Mangler alongside my two Renegades in my Magnus lists and I believe for me the Rover will be the perfect fit for my playstyle. I field Magnus' Tier list with my 'Steelhead swarm' quite often so melee isn't a problem but having a heavy warjack that can do both range and melee and with some good armor should work out well.
I'm looking at the Rover in the context of McBain. Failsafe ensures the Shield stays active, and I'm thinking Wrong Eye, Snapjaw, and a Bullsnapper will be making an appearence in the list which means Arm 24 on the Rover that deals damage to enemy Jacks / beasts every time they hit it. If you can manage to neutralize enemy infantry with Kayazy, the Rover will be a nuance, especially if you have the Ragman / Aiyana & Holt around for a damage buff.
That's it man! Game over man! GAME OVER! -Hudson
According to Epic Irusk, Endgame has critical decapitation. Awesome!