I learned something today...

[Razhem]

Never leave Ruphert at home and Irusk + assault kommandos = a very sad High Reclaimer. Christ, I didn't notice how dependant the reclaimer is on clouds till that a single unit pretty much destroyed my whole tempo. I do admit my list was crap or at the very least "ill prepared for such a foe", but it still hurts a lot. What do I want from this thread? Well, the MKII manual got me pumped up the High Reclaimer and I'd love to see him shine, or at least not have such a discrepancy between good and bat matchups.

The list I used was

High Reclaimer
Guardian
2 knight exemplar units
6 cleansers
5 vengers
vassal
EEyriss
Wracks

My plan was to have clouds cover my advance, use cleansers for some crowd control, use the exemplars for jack hunting and the vengers for assassination angles. The list is lacking in adaptability though, so I'd love some suggestions.

[Lanz]

Is this the list you lost to Irusk with?

I would have expected so many exemplar to have been able to deal with assault kommandos. The vengers for sure.

[LordGrimlok]

I figured the Vengers could impact attack the kommandos... Could you post your opponent's list? How was terrain and set-up?

[der13manner]

Could you post the Irusk list? I'm curious where things went wrong as well.

I think you already know the obvious answer that if you drop the Vassal and add Rhupert you'd negate some of the advantage that Inhospitable Ground provides. eEyriss should have dealt with Iron Flesh for you as well. The weak point of the plan seems to have been the immune to fire (so the Cleansers were boned), and probably Mortars doing their thing all over your army, which I'm not sure how to fix other then to say run faster

I'm not sure I like the Venger Calvary in any list, but I just don't seem to get my points out of them. I'd probably drop them and the Guardian for a Revenger, Crusader, and a Vanquisher/Templar/Reckoner. At which point I'd also find room for the choir. But, at that point I've drastically altered your list, and twisted it into what I like to play

[DasGerg]

Never leave Ruphert at home and Irusk + assault kommandos = a very sad High Reclaimer. Christ, I didn't notice how dependant the reclaimer is on clouds till that a single unit pretty much destroyed my whole tempo. I do admit my list was crap or at the very least "ill prepared for such a foe", but it still hurts a lot. What do I want from this thread? Well, the MKII manual got me pumped up the High Reclaimer and I'd love to see him shine, or at least not have such a discrepancy between good and bat matchups.

I have highlighted the section in this that I think explains your biggest problem. It wasn't that the AKs murdered your army in a turn. It was that they completely destroyed your idea of how to play your army. With that one unit, the enemy circumvented the High Reclaimer's biggest schtick and neutered the plan you had for the Cleansers as well. Add in Irusk hosing your movement, and I can see how everything fell apart.

With that said (and also not knowing the opponent's list) I don't think the battle was hopeless. Seeing this, I would have switched formations thusly: Vengers in front, KE in front & near flanks, Cleansers in the front middle, Guardian at the edge of control to a flank, HR in the middle, clouds like normal.

AKs will ignore clouds, yes. But nothing else in that army would. Keeping the clouds, protects you from mortars. Making your Vengers your new screening unit does suck. But when they do it, the AKs have to shoot them first. Unless they kill them all, Vengers gain pathfinder from the damage and shoot out of the clouds to tie the AKs up. Keep the Venger leader back for feat goodness. At that point, HR clouds drop into the Venger/AK scrum while KEs run up ASAP. Depending on the final reading of Burning Ash and Alchemical Mask(Do AKs ignore the to-hit penalty from Burning Ash?), the AKs should be left needs 8s to hit in melee and 10s to wound.

If you can minimize casualties on the way up, your list should have enough punch to win that melee fight. Especially, as the dying infantry fuels the HR, I'd give you better than even odds to grind him down.


But yes, AKs do mess with a great many things we like. I hates them so.

[Razhem]

DasGerg hit the nail on the head, I lost my brain thought and started doing a lot of stupid things.

The Irusk list was

Irusk
Beast-09
Great bears
10 pikemen + UA
10 Assault Kommandos + 2 flamethrowers
War dog
Widowmakers

And I believe I'm not forgetting anything.

Exemplars are horrible for dealing against Kommandos because of inhospitable, I can run at them, only to get pelted in the face and have them assualt and battery away from any countercharge potential. As for cavalry charges, impact pow 10 hits won't kill anything soon and I only get them stuck in, with beast running around, I didn't want to send them to the grinder too quick. Pikemen had Iron flesh but I screwed up rolling and range with Eyriss, big mistake there.

My biggest mistake though was bad positioning on the reclaimer, since I got a venger into position (god bless the guardian's open fist) but got in the way and the reclaimer couldn't get into position to feat effectively and jam 4 vengers into Irusk's face. The other mistake was not trying to do some threat saturation in the hopes of making him slip and send some feat kill, keeping the vengers behind everything till urn 3 was also a big one. Other big one was not using the guardian to lure the pikemen forward and get more possible feat angles.

It was a bit of a mess, but I can see a light at the end of the tunnel and the list needs some tweaking so it can be more of an allcomers list. Vengers are in the list for pure feat threat range and assassination. Bastions might be a very good option to help getting there, but the points are tight and Ruphert has to be in there too. Another is downgrading the guardian into a revenger, but loosing a heavy doesn't sit well with me.

[dicegod]

Yep, the list looks good on the surface - but there's a few flaws. It's psuedo-balanced, but not quite.

There isn't any serious ranged back up. Cleansers don't really count, I'm talking Redeemer/Deliverers/Idrians etc. Heck even a Sunburst might help that out.
Idrians are good with the High Reclaimer because they get Camo from THR and are good feat prospects with pathfinder.

Theres no fast/cheap/disposalable unit. Thats right folks, TFG to run 6" through Inhospitable Ground and engage those AK's would be golden. I really like TFG with THR because they are cheap souls that get in people's way. Daughters fulfil a similar role - in a smoke cloud (which I don't believe the AK's ignore?) it's boxcars to hit them and they shred AK's in combat.

THR is a assassination 'caster now, covering his approach with smoke. You should be aiming just to bog down the heavies with souls and deliver the killing blow.


To be honest, I would lose the KE totally. They are garbage in Mk2 without March for +2". Sorry but thats just how I see it. Without a 'caster that makes them faster it just ain't worth it.

Cleansers are redundant with the large amount of focus on the high reclaimer, you have your fire-based troop clearing. Elemental damage is a real concern now.

How about this?

High Reclaimer
^Revenger
Rhoven+Bodyguards
6xIdrians+UA
10xTFG
5 vengers
vassal
EEyriss

[Razhem]

I pretty much applied it in my head that Kommandos ignore the attack penalty, the rule does say they ignore cloud effects when determining LOS or making attacks.

Thanks for the suggestions, it looks like a nice template, although I'd probably pass on Rhoven (don't really see him adding much, I'd rather have the covenant for just in case mass knockdown chickanery and no magic bubble and ruphert because last game reminded me that terrain is a *****) and might try deliverers instead of idrians first (will also let me check out how they fare in MKII).

Will probably try to be more aggressive and just jam everything down the other guy's throat till I manage a feat opening, not having any range limitation except inside command and control area gives a lot of phantom threat on revive angles.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

My only problem with your list Dicegod is how do you deal with arm 18+? Pray he hits your Vengers and doesn't kill the rest of your squad? Well I suppose a full TFG charge could put some hurt but that's only 1 attack.

[SaltyBob]

And some times there are just plain bad match ups. The High Reclaimer isn't really a take all comers caster in the first place. If you bring him to a tourney, be sure to bring another caster that can deal with his faults.

[bluecardinal]

And some times there are just plain bad match ups. The High Reclaimer isn't really a take all comers caster in the first place. If you bring him to a tourney, be sure to bring another caster that can deal with his faults.

This is so true, I really like the HR but he does have some bad match ups but some good ones as well. I'll also second Dicegod on dropping the Knights Exemplar. You would be better served with a full unit of TFG as fodder or tying up other troops. You could use your cleansers behind the TFG and shoot them if they get engaged.

I'm also curious to why you brought the Guardian? I like the guy but not in this list. My go to heavy with the HR is the Reckoner. His choking veil stacks with burning ash, its particularly good against Hordes. Throw in Rhoven and you effectively shoot through your own smoke.

One more thing, are you charging with the HR on the first turn and/or every turn? If you have him charge one of your own guys in the back lines, he gets much more distance from Burning Ash. His MAT is low enough that you might even miss. I change a Cleanser's facing so his front arc is in the HR's front arc and half the time, the HR misses his attack. After that, you can throw out your clouds further. It's really great for the assasination run.

Best of luck and share anymore success or failures with us. Its always good to talk tactics.

[Razhem]

The guardian got drafted because I wanted a heavy but also the potential to arc ashes to ashes, and well, it's the cheap way of getting a bit of both. Also, his open fist is pretty useful if you really need to get the vengear leader into position before feating. Although I agree with taking out the exemplars, I do have to mention their valiant charge of taking down beast with 3 exemplars charging and a venger.

As for dealing with high armour... my strategy will probably go a bit with what dicegod mentioned. The high reclaimer is an assassination caster, the plan is to get all the cogs into position so I can then jam vengers into the enemy caster's face and ashes to ashes or even immolate said caster as much as possible. If I'm facing Terminus I'm pretty screwed from the get go, so against hardy casters and even hordes, it would have a hard time depending on how effective my smoke is.

In the game itself, I didn't have much trouble putting the ash, I did charge only one turn at my guys, but inhospitable ground had me moving very slow anyway, so the reclaimer could keep up, also, cleansers helped by covering any holes I couldn't cover with ash. My big problem was not having any way to charge into position and be able to do a complete feat assassination run.

[Razhem]

Well, I've played a second game in my quest to make the High Reclaimer be a nice choice on my hands. List this time was

High Reclaimer
Revenger
10 TFG
10 Deliverers
5 Vengers
Ruphert
EEyriss
coventant
Wracks
Vassal

I played against a Skorne player, the game didn't completely finish and it is on standby on vassal till I meet up my opponent again, but the difference in performance was between night and day (although the match can still go either way, I blew it on the resurrection assassination run). His army has no way of dealing with my smoke (extoller can't help without souls and he used a cetrati heavy force, killed the extoller when things died). Hell, the 2 exemplar unit version would have had a field day this game ripping cetrati in half.

This just cements how he is amazing when your opponent does jack against smoke but things get a lot uglier the moment they can ignore part or all of the smoke. I'll have to test this list against an opponent that can deal with my smoke to see if it can take on bad matchups.

[Kypt]

I'm getting to like the reclaimer more and more due to MK2 but I don't play him as much as I'd like due to my main opponent being legion...:/

[Razhem]

Oh yeah, my other lesson was the need to add either Rhoven or Vilmon in there, I need a commander in that list, both the deliverers and TFG had a scared out of their wits turn.

[brotherscott]

A Seneschal works pretty well for a cheap Commander. though I don't have a problem with Rhoven or Vilmon at CMD 10.

I started off after Escalation and played the High Reclaimer almost exclusively, and while eFeora is a lot of fun, I am still a fan of the silent one.

The biggest thing about Assault Kommandos is their immunity to Fire and Corrosion. If you can hit them hard enough they go away, just don't do it with Fire.

Good to see eEiryss in the list, would Eiryss work as well? Disrupting the 'caster is still viable, and would keep Irusk from casting Inhospitable Ground.

Keep hanging in there- I think you are on the right track-

[Oilslick]

Oh yeah, my other lesson was the need to add either Rhoven or Vilmon in there, I need a commander in that list, both the deliverers and TFG had a scared out of their wits turn.

You may note that Rupert also fills this role nicely.

[Marius]

You may note that Rupert also fills this role nicely.

Surely he's only a commander for mercs?

[Soylent]

Surely he's only a commander for mercs?

He makes a unit fearless as well as tough.

[der13manner]

It just occured to me - something that might put the fear of Menoth in those Assault Commandos is Daughters of the Flame. They have very high defense, move fast, and should dismantle a unit very very fast. I think that might be my solution to them in the future ...

[brotherscott]

It just occured to me - something that might put the fear of Menoth in those Assault Commandos is Daughters of the Flame. They have very high defense, move fast, and should dismantle a unit very very fast. I think that might be my solution to them in the future ...

Daughters are a great counter to Assault Kommandos. I got to see them in action the other night, and it wasn't pretty.
They may very well see a list when I get back to Protectorate.