Talon viability

[GnomesofZurich]

Hello, this is my first post on the forum. I'm looking at getting into Warmachine, and am planning on starting out with a mercenary force, specifically looking at the Magnus tiered-lists.

I'm wondering if anyone can comment on the viability of the Talon warjack. I've located some places I can get the out-of-print Magnus the Traitor battlegroup online for ~$50 shipped, the only thing holding me back is the Talon warjack, I'm questioning whether it's worth the points or whether I'm ever likely to use it.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Mod_Faultie]

The much-lamented Talon is a fine 'jack, a good one infact. Many a Cygnaran would love to field such a 'jack.

The problem is that in the Mercs arsenal, it's a good 'jack in a sea of great 'jacks. It's in a limbo, of sorts, between the "cheap, and better at disabling" Buccaneer, and the "more expensive, but deadlier and more useful" Vanguard, and it's priced right between them too. To top it all off, a paltry 2 more points gets you a Nomad!
The only Mercs that might take him (Rhulics), can't even if they want to (I wouldn't mind a 4pt melee 'jack on Thor!).

[Gwydyon]

Amusingly, mercs are lacking a unit like Sword Knights to make the Talon shine. While Cygnar is lacking a Talon to make the Sword Knights shine. At least till the Firefly comes out.

[pRophaniti1978]

Since I'm doing a Magnus-on-a-budget army, I tend to use the talon most games (I started with the box). The Talon's not great, but it does well enough. As stated there are better options at other points values, but if the costs work out alright don't feel too bad about fielding one, it can still get stuff done.

[GnomesofZurich]

Thanks for the replies.

Looking at the cost per unit, I guess I am still probably better off with the battlegroup. Buying individually Magnus, 2 Renegade and a Mangler looks to cost about $5 more than buying the battlegroup + 1 Renegade, and on the off-chance the Talon does come in handy, it's probably worth $5.

[whats82]

Yes, battleboxes are still a cheap way to start. People used to buy the legion box just for the warbeasts too, completely discounting Lylyth's cost. I know people with 4 lylyth and that's not uncommon.

[Justin Kase]

Thanks for the replies.

Looking at the cost per unit, I guess I am still probably better off with the battlegroup. Buying individually Magnus, 2 Renegade and a Mangler looks to cost about $5 more than buying the battlegroup + 1 Renegade, and on the off-chance the Talon does come in handy, it's probably worth $5.

I was going to say the same thing. Worst case, you can see if any other Merc players are interested in trading for the Talon. I've still got mine and field it almost every game, as it was the first jack I painted. I'm waiting for him to achieve character status

[GnomesofZurich]

Well, I took the plunge and ordered the battle box. It's coming from England, so might take a bit to get here, but pretty soon I'll have my start.

[Defenstrator]

Faultie summed up the Talons problem fairly succinctly. About the only thing it has going for it is that it's very tough for its point cost. If you need a sacrificial model to soak up fire or get in the way of a unit then the Talon is an alright choice. I only use him in "fun" lists, but he has normally pulled his weight in them.

[brotherscott]

I have three Talons (bought one early for Sam & the Devil Dogs, picked up another for cheap, and bough the Magnus box). They don't see a lot of table time, but lately Retribution players at the FLGS have made him a priority target because they don't want their Myrmidons stalled.
I have also been able to stall some of the character 'jacks (Ol' Rowdy HATES that!) and get off some pretty fun combos (such as stalling the Behemoth, then charging a Freebooter up and chain attack into deep water).
The Talon is not a be all-end all 'jack, but it does have some usefulness on the table.
Faultie did sum it up the best.

[MadJack]

Well, I took the plunge and ordered the battle box. It's coming from England, so might take a bit to get here, but pretty soon I'll have my start.

Good. Even if you never use the Talon in a game, it's still a great-looking model IMO. I've got 5 of them myself (2 painted to go with Magnus, 1 converted and painted to be a labour jack, and 2 that I haven't painted yet, but I plan on painting one to go with Sam & the Devil Dogs, and the other to go with either Ashlynn or Fiona... I haven't decided yet).

[bashamer]

I personally dislike the buccaneer, it is made of paper and tends to die as such. Even when it wins games I still have a grudge against it because it is so .... unjack like.

The Thalon was amazing in mk1 as mats on jacks blew. But with the mat bump stall became less cool. Altough the biggest hit was the introduction of hordes.

All in all is an amazing jack to throw on a flank to tie things up. Good to marshal and pronto then throw it into the enemy ranks to deal with.

Then there is the problem.

The Vanguard

The vanguard is just better. Merc jacks are good to great, but the vanguard takes the cake. It can tie up flanks better, it is more resilient than the Thalon, or just about any other jack on in the game.

-When it comes to taking flanks he is as fast as you can hope for.
-When it comes to taking charges his DEF is unhear of.
-Gets 3 attacks on the charge before having to buy.
-And he has shieldguard.

So at the expense of stall, powerful charge and 1 point you get +1 ARM, +1 DEF, Set Defence, A gun, Assualt, +1 STR, sieldguard.

When looking at the other direction.

The Buccanneer

So at the expense of stall, powerful charge 3 arm you get 1 point and knockdown. Knockdown being arguable better than stall in many cases.

So the Thalon is 1 point flexibility, it felt between a bucaneer and a Vanguard. Flexibility is good, good for tournament lists. But in a tournament I'm unlikely to field something that only works against a little over half the factions.

So unless you really need that 1 point for something amazing you are likely better off with one of the other options.

[whitekong]

The Talon is ok, I love mine. Powerful charge is a great ability, it let's him deal with high def solo's and even put some damage an a hard to hit caster once in a while. Mat 8 on the charge and arm 18 isn't too shabby.

[Robert Shepherd]

I'm going to wait to see what Rutger Shaw does before I write the talon off completely. As a merc 'jack marshal there's a fair chance he might have something that redeems the much-maligned Talon, even if it's just the fact that I don't want to run two heavies on him but can afford the 4 pts for the extra light.

[Jinx.S]

Sadly, even though the talon helps Shaw (especially against jacks), I would say the Vanguard is still the better option with him (because of shieldguard)

[devoncodain]

My talon I found in my basement when I moved in all I had to do was get a head for it. It was the first jack I painted and I plan on running him with Sam the first Unit I painted to just insure those knock downs a little more.

[whats82]

How can you bash the buccaneer's durability when it's only 3 points ? Look at any 3 point solo and see how much arm/wound they have compare to Buc. He will die to any kind of concentrated fire, but he doesn't care much about blast damage and still laugh off lots of pow10s in general. Other than not having stealth (most stealth solos are rather afraid of blast damage), if he soaks up a full shooting unit worth of fire, you should consider yourself lucky that all those shots didn't go kill something more expensive.

[Lanz]

Shame highborne Covenant couldn't take Sword Knights instead of Long Gunners. They'd love to have a Talon around.

[whats82]

Yes, all of cygnar continuously wonder who's the idiot decision maker to obsolete perfectly viable jack chasis in favor of the more expensive (though slightly better0 models.

Cygnar would love to field talon, nomad and mule as faction models. In fact, one of Haley's fluff quote was regarding talon I believe (in superiority?) was along the line of, "someone explain to me why we don't use these jacks anymore"

[Ger]

If the Talon could charge for free I'd be much happier with it.

[moddball]

The Talon is a viable little guy, he works he is just up against so many other good options.

Espically for me now with two renegades at 5pts each in the new Pmagnus list. I Marshal him with Meg in 100pt two caster games. I do still use him but not as often as I used to.

I did like fielding him in the front rank of Greygores unit. He runs up Stalls somthing making it almost auto hitting for Greygores. He is same Def so he's no making the Trolls easier to hit at least with AOE's or chain lightning. He really helps set thing up for the charge.