Lich Lord Overseer

[FeignLife]

Actually, Morty does have the best odds of getting crit shred to work, mostly because of Recalibration. Technically, he can boost to hit for a possible extra attack with pSkarre, as you said, but it would be a waste every time, as three dice can hit most things just fine, and you could use that focus to flat buy another attack instead of praying for one. I know which I'd rather do.

I was actually remarking at the fact that I've seen more talk about the very situational ability on the Desecrator's melee weapon, instead of it's awesome gun, which seems to me the reason to take it.

[khylis]

It has an awesome gun, and an awesome melee weapon - we got bored of talking about the scather AOE, so we started talking about the melee weapon. Next week we'll cover the desecrator's unique fashion sense, and his scandal with former band member - the leviathan.

[FeignLife]

Next week we'll cover the desecrator's unique fashion sense, and his scandal with former band member - the leviathan.

That incident never would have happened if the Harrower could have overcome his heroin addiction. As it stands now, there will never be a Crabjacks reunion tour.

[Chad]

Actually, Morty does have the best odds of getting crit shred to work, mostly because of Recalibration.

That's only effective during the feat turn, and only effective vs. living models. Skarre can do it every turn against every enemy.

The 'nice' odds for crit really only exist at 4 dice or better. It's decent at needing 3s or 4s, but it's still against you. With the MAT 6 on this guy, you're not really in the 'nice' range on either beasts or casters, generally speaking.

Technically, he can boost to hit for a possible extra attack with pSkarre, as you said, but it would be a waste every time, as three dice can hit most things just fine, and you could use that focus to flat buy another attack instead of praying for one.

That's essentially what I said. But I was giving the example of the best odds of getting a crit - which is a boosted 4 dice on attack with PSkarre. Not something I'd do, but it is the best by the percentages.

Crit shred is a decent ability, but what it boils down to is generally one free attack out of 3 or 4. Not stellar, but OK.

[FeignLife]

That's only effective during the feat turn, and only effective vs. living models. Skarre can do it every turn against every enemy.

Granted, though Morty is basically an anti-hordes jack caster, so TV is effectively the same as DG in a steamroller environment. From there you can argue for either Recalibrate to almost guarantee extra swings, or Blood Magic to make the few swings you get count. It's not something I'd like to delve into though because ...

A) I don't play Morty,
B) They are both completely different casters.

Other than that, it seems we agree completely.

[Bingas]

I'm used to running alot of Marshals, so I like what he can do. ILO + Siren + Harrower will run as an effective flank threat. Between the stealth and the bezerk lite with souls, it will threaten infantry, he'll venom after the fact might get some more souls through corrosion. Sure 15 Pts is expensive but it's worth the threat.

... series I've worked on is God of War, specifically Ghost of Sparta. Though I've also worked on Harry Potter, Moonbase Commander, Total Annihilation and many other games.

So your to blame for my misspent youth. I loved those games.

Back on topic, I plan on testing ILO out in the next few days, I'll be back with results then.

I think we need to lay off the theory machine and pick up (and play with) our toy soldiers more!

[PG_69Lazarus]

That incident never would have happened if the Harrower could have overcome
his heroin addiction. As it stands now, there will never be a Crabjacks reunion
tour.

Now I want to run all my crabjacks at once.....I'm demoing games all day tomorrow so likely won't get to do that

[FeignLife]

Now I want to run all my crabjacks at once.....I'm demoing games all day tomorrow so likely won't get to do that

I hear their manager Morty is too busy with the newest pop sensation "Slayer Spam" anyway. Boy bands make money apparently.

Also, my last off topic post ITT, I swear.

[khylis]

I hear their manager Morty is too busy with the newest pop sensation "Slayer Spam" anyway. Boy bands make money apparently.

Also, my last off topic post ITT, I swear.

Young whippersnappers! In my day, it was crabjack-core or nothin' I tells ya!

Back on topic, it seems that running a harrower/desecrator in a spellslinger list could work - though it's a rather expensive combination to take.

[Darxyd]

lol. Lich Overseers in the Shard Isles performing bizarre experiments.

[DemonCalibre]

Personally, I think the Iron Lich Overseer is not bad, he has a limited number of jacks he is good with, but he offers them a decent kit.

Personally, I think the Iron Lich Overseer, and a Seether are great for casters who desire hitting power, but don't desire the handy cap of having to feed a jack focus. The Seether is a great combo with him, combined with Dark shroud(from a handy Wraith Engine or Bane), will give you decent finishing power, without having spend focus.

This is very strong imho on Terminus/Venethrax/Denegra, who all really don't want to have to deal with pumping focus into warjacks to execute.

Amazing? Autoinclude? No good tech with a few casters, absolutely.

Would I take him in a Tournament list, yes, but mostly for Venethrax(if I was running him which is unlikely), and Terminus(which I would likely run, and he would be strong with).

Remember the advantage of the ILO and a Seether it is prevents from you getting to cluttered on the battle field, keeps you with some heavy jack hitting power, and doesn't eat up precious focus from our tanky casters.

[Vex]

Personally, I think the Iron Lich Overseer is not bad, he has a limited number of jacks he is good with, but he offers them a decent kit.

Personally, I think the Iron Lich Overseer, and a Seether are great for casters who desire hitting power, but don't desire the handy cap of having to feed a jack focus. The Seether is a great combo with him, combined with Dark shroud(from a handy Wraith Engine or Bane), will give you decent finishing power, without having spend focus.

Why would anyone ever take ILO+Seether instead of a Deathjack? They both cost the same, and one is clearly better than the other.

Also worth noting, Seethers stop getting their free focus if the ILO should happen to die.

[warlorddrax]

but, at least they do not shut down, and they can function much better than any other Helljack when they go autonomous

[withershadow]

Brevity, it's a good thing.

[zeezok]

Things that I feel are a least worth mentioning that I didn't see:
1. ILO + Scavenger(s) with pSkarre would be a decent combo, especially on her feat turn, double especially with Dark Guidance
2. ILO would work well with greedy casters like Terminus or Venethrax to both throw something unexpected at opponents (OMG not just Big T Infantrymachine!?) and let my greedy caster remain (necessarily) greedy

Things worth mentioning again because they are, I feel, more broadly applicable and probably the real reason for ILO being what he/she/it is:
1. It enables a true multi-pronged attack approach, which is one of Cryx's traditional advantages
2. In larger games (75+) it allows me to take the jacks that we all so desperately love but can't afford to feed focus to, while freeing the WWS duo up to actually use their Venom instead of just *Focus Battery

In the endless pursuit of eloquence and brevity, I shall stop there and hope that I didn't cross the TL/DR line

[PG_The Captain]

Why would anyone ever take ILO+Seether instead of a Deathjack? They both cost the same, and one is clearly better than the other.

Two possible reasons:
1) Theme force that does not allow Deathjack.
2) You already have Deathjack in the list.

Bonus reason: Deathjack doesn't have Stealth.

[Vex]

Two possible reasons:
1) Theme force that does not allow Deathjack.
2) You already have Deathjack in the list.

Bonus reason: Deathjack doesn't have Stealth.

1) The only Cryx theme force that is really worth using (Morty) does allow DJ. Please try again.
2) Unless you are playing 75+ point games, spending 24 points on 2 jacks is probably a bad idea.

Bonus Reason: Neither does the ILO 'jack, generally. You can't both be stealthed and run. Stealth is only useful when you can't engage on a given turn, and if you can't engage, then you're probably going to be running.

[Chouraku]

Or shooting.

Pair of Leviathans with this thing, Terminus will be happy.

[Dr.Jones]

I proxied an Overseer in a couple of games using a 50 pt. Denegrha ranged list. Gave him a Leviathan and partnered them up with a Warwitch Siren so the 'jack could fire off three shots.

Warwitch Deneghra
-Deathripper
-Defiler
-Defiler
-Skarlock Thrall
Bile Thralls (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Mechanithralls (Leader and 9 Grunts)
2 Brute Thrall
Necrosurgeon & 3 Stitch Thralls
The Withershadow Combine
Iron Lich Overseer
-Leviathan
Pistol Wraith
Pistol Wraith
Warwitch Siren

First game would have been over in the second round had I not missed with my Scourge attack roll/ had the scatter been in my favor, as my opponent's low-ARM, low health 'caster was well within the Leviathan's 18" threat range. Otherwise, the combo was able to pick off some key support solos before getting bogged down in melee and my 'jack was finished off. Even without the Leviathan, the Overseer was able to chip some damage off of the 'caster late in the game and help me win.

Second game was against Karchev at 35 pts. Same list as above, only without the Mechanithralls, Necrosurgeon, and Pistol Wraiths. Managed to knock down and Parasite Karchev, and then proceeded to roll very high on my damage rolls doing ~27 damage between the three Leviathan shots before my Bile Thralls finished him.

Thoughts:
Denegrha being able to use a Leviathan to full effect without giving up any focus is nasty. I'm pretty certain that there's nothing in the Cryx arsenal that has as long of a threat range that can be safe from retaliation after attacking, especially when stealthed. Sure, Deneghra could run the Leviathan without the Overseer and let the Siren Power Boost it and thus make room for a Pistol Wraith, but she would be giving up an additional 13" POW 13-15 shot, Stealth on the 'jack and a 10" POW 12 magic attack should the need arise. The major downside is the overall cost; 14 points is a significant chunk of an army to take one model and make it work to its fullest. At 50pts this didn't feel so bad, at 35pts I felt overwhelmed and outnumbered by Karchev and four 'jacks. Overall, I think the Overseer is a situational model that won't work well with all 'casters, but can provide a useful support option to others in larger games.

[Syfer22]

The thing that gets me is that there's not a lot of incentive to using the ILO. There are some marshals that have a lot of incentive to using them because they provide the 'jack with something the warcaster generally can't do for them. In Cygnar, for instance, the gunmages can marshal a 'jack and the 'jack can use the gunmages' critical shots for added versatility while not drawing from the caster. Add in the fact that the marshaled 'jacks are working at their forte (single shot) between the marshal and Strangeways, and it's a very attractive package.

Another example is "Pronto," which can be really nice to get an angle for a charge, or just added threat range.

As it stands, the ILO offers our 'jacks stealth. That's nice, but it depends on the 'caster being played (some can just hand out stealth anyway, though it does give flexibility on who the caster hands stealth out to if he doesn't have to worry about the 'jack).

However, the ILO does offer us something other marshals don't -- The chance to feed a 'jack more than one pseudo focus a turn. A lot of our Cryxian casters are greedy, wanting to cast a bunch of spells or wanting to camp (or a mixture of the two). Our 'jacks, while efficient, still want more focus when they go in to get the job done (or sit back and shoot). When playing a caster like Scaverous, I've learned how painful it is to have to try to decide between handing out focus to a 'jack and casting more spells.

In the end, I think it's a niche choice. A very expensive niche choice. The downside is that you have to weigh the pros and cons of the points price tag (we have a lot of competition in the 2-4 points area), as well as the fact that the 'jack will not benefit from battlegroup spells. If you are running a caster with no battlegroup spells, then hey, you're in luck.

I imagine that the ILO was made with Scaverous in mind. He has no battle group spells. He has no way of giving out stealth. There are many ways to play Scaverous, but the way I play him at least, he's a focus hog and generally runs himself dry almost every turn, and on feat turn, you're going to want to have as much focus to play around with as you can get.

Pair this up with the auto-boosted magic attack rolls from friendly faction models in his control area, and having that crucial Dark Fire go off for the soul is much more likely to happen.

[Vex]

I imagine that the ILO was made with Scaverous in mind. He has no battle group spells. He has no way of giving out stealth. There are many ways to play Scaverous, but the way I play him at least, he's a focus hog and generally runs himself dry almost every turn, and on feat turn, you're going to want to have as much focus to play around with as you can get.

The last thing Scaverous can afford is to spend points on yet another utility model. He already wants to take the Withershadow Combine, at least one Warwitch Siren, Darragh Wrathe, etc. Adding yet another model that isn't likely to kill anything close its point cost isn't really going to help him, IMO.

[Vex]

I proxied an Overseer in a couple of games using a 50 pt. Denegrha ranged list. Gave him a Leviathan and partnered them up with a Warwitch Siren so the 'jack could fire off three shots.

[snip]

The major downside is the overall cost; 14 points is a significant chunk of an army to take one model and make it work to its fullest.

Let's do a quick comparisson to see if you're getting value for your points. Which would you rather have:

A) A Leviathan that gets 2 focus every turn, and stealth

...or...

B) Malice + Withershadow Combine

Is this even a contest?

[Syfer22]

The last thing Scaverous can afford is to spend points on yet another utility model. He already wants to take the Withershadow Combine, at least one Warwitch Siren, Darragh Wrathe, etc. Adding yet another model that isn't likely to kill anything close its point cost isn't really going to help him, IMO.

Again, it depends. Scaverous DOES want a lot of support, but in bigger point battles, the ILO COULD be a potential candidate as further support. Even then, not all of that support is mandatory. Darragh Wrathe IS nice, don't get me wrong, but I don't always see him as mandatory.

The reason I brought that up is that I'm starting to feel like Scaverous makes just about anything good due to spells like Telekinesis and Icy Grip. On the otherhand, I've run heavies with him and while they can do work, I felt more strepped for focus than usual when I had to choose between doling out focus and casting.

[DemonCalibre]

Why would anyone ever take ILO+Seether instead of a Deathjack? They both cost the same, and one is clearly better than the other.

Also worth noting, Seethers stop getting their free focus if the ILO should happen to die.

Except that my Seether with ILO is going to second wave clean up unit(like the vast majority of my jacks), and stealth insures that he will do the job I am purchasing him for(counter attacking Warjacks, after the armies have gotten stuck in). While you may presume that death jack is clearly better, I am not on the opinion. The ILO and Seether also come with another benefit of being two components which can do two different things at once.

While Death Jack is great don't get me wrong, I don't think he is "obviously" superior then that combo since what i intend to do with the Seether is not the same job that I would do with Death Jack.

[FeignLife]

But you could get more attacks, a better threat range, and complete immunity to shooting/magic (with no B2B contact needed), and a few nifty spells for three points less if you took WE&S to fill that role...

[DemonCalibre]

But you could get more attacks, a better threat range, and complete immunity to shooting/magic (with no B2B contact needed), and a few nifty spells for three points less if you took WE&S to fill that role...

Except the Wraith Engine(I presume that is what WE is?) takes up a ton of space(which causes traffic issues), and isn't a great reserve piece(since your not exploiting it's apparition and wraith walker tech), and it kills infantry, not peeling my Warjacks which is my primary concern.

[Dr.Jones]

Let's do a quick comparisson to see if you're getting value for your points. Which would you rather have:

A) A Leviathan that gets 2 focus every turn, and stealth

...or...

B) Malice + Withershadow Combine

Is this even a contest?

When my list is designed to shoot a knocked down warcaster? Option A.

[FeignLife]

Except the Wraith Engine(I presume that is what WE is?) takes up a ton of space(which causes traffic issues), and isn't a great reserve piece(since your not exploiting it's apparition and wraith walker tech), and it kills infantry, not peeling my Warjacks which is my primary concern.

WE&S = Wrong Eye and Snapjaw. Wrong Eye's CTRL is the same as the ILO's CMD, he makes both himself and his fury 4 warbeast immune to everything but melee, and can shut down enemy warbeasts with voodoo doll, giving him more overall utility than the ILO. Granted, he has a huge weakness, but it is one that could be negated with careful play.

I don't particularly like the Wraith Engine either truth be told.

[warlorddrax]

Wrong'Eye and SnapJaw. the Minion mini-warlock and Gator Warbeast. they are 9 points for the pair and can almost match-up to the DeathJack in sheer killing power and utility.

they are really awesome mercs, and they only work for Cryx! (of the Warmachine Factions...)

they are far far more efficient than any Jack marshal, and cheaper than the Jack+Marshal combo, and can easily out-muscle any marshalled Jack.

--edit--
Ninja'd

[duffybear1988]

I like the idea of running the ILO in the new pSkarre tier list so he can jackmarshal a mariner or 2! Mmmmmmmmmmm stealth Mariners That way he frees up focus on pSkarre for her many other abilities. I plan to run something like this at 35pts

1 Pirate Queen Skarre
+1 Freebooter
1 Iron Lich Overseer
+1 Mariner
1 max unit of Black Ogrun Boarding Party
1 Blackbane's Ghost Raiders
1 max unit of Revenant Crew of the Atramentous
1 Revenant Cannon Crew


In a list like this he really comes into his own as he suddenly gets access to a decent ranged jack who packs a punch in combat, that looks cool, and really benefits from stealth. The Mariner also doesn't need heaps of focus to be useful.

[DemonCalibre]

WE&S = Wrong Eye and Snapjaw. Wrong Eye's CTRL is the same as the ILO's CMD, he makes both himself and his fury 4 warbeast immune to everything but melee, and can shut down enemy warbeasts with voodoo doll, giving him more overall utility than the ILO. Granted, he has a huge weakness, but it is one that could be negated with careful play.

I don't particularly like the Wraith Engine either truth be told.

So I presume you don't consider the fact that if I kill the not really that hard to kill Wrong eye, I insta kill Snap Jaw, a non-weakness? I have found the companion rule liability on minion Warlocks to be there undoing more times then not.

[Sanctjud]

@DemonCalibre: Maybe you missed it, but "he has a huge weakness" is something that FeignLife said. He has covered his bases.

[2LiveIs2Die]

I'm quite surprised the first jack on the list isn't a reaper.
If you give a melee jack stealth, it needs to be close enough to engage the following turns, which means stealth isn't very helpful.
Both the heavies you have on the list cost A LOT OF POINTS and to put them on a marshal is very risky.
Reaper brings him to a total of 10 points, has a very effective gun, reach, and has a stupid little senergy where if you charge the ILO up and kill something and then have the reaper attack something within 2" of the ILO, you can gain the soul using the ILO then the reaper can spend it to buy another attack.
Oh and I'll probably never use a heavy with him, hell diver or stalker all the way.

[Warlordtheft]

AFB-Could a Warwitch Siren give a jack marshalled Helljack a focus point?

[Matt_The_Man]

I believe so. It's been awhile since I read the marshal rules, but I don't think focus is actually put on a marshalled jack, it's just available for certain things. Meaning that the requirement for Power Booster (No focus) would be met.

[PG_The Captain]

1) The only Cryx theme force that is really worth using (Morty) does allow DJ. Please try again.
2) Unless you are playing 75+ point games, spending 24 points on 2 jacks is probably a bad idea.

Bonus Reason: Neither does the ILO 'jack, generally. You can't both be stealthed and run. Stealth is only useful when you can't engage on a given turn, and if you can't engage, then you're probably going to be running.

I'm trying to say this as politely as my English allows:

Your way of playing is not the only way.

You can netdeck your army lists as much as you want to, and I agree that some composition are stronger than others, but that doesn't make the runners-up automatically useless. I suggest that instead of putting something off as useless, try to find ways to make it work. (This attitude of mine may come from me being a long-time Merc player...) Cryx is spoiled with great options, so I think we can afford to try one of the not-so-immediately obvious choices, too.

[zeezok]

AFB-Could a Warwitch Siren give a jack marshalled Helljack a focus point?

Yes, it's not focus that a marshal uses, it doesn't really give a name in Prime other than "benefits" on pg 80 paragraph 3

Once during each of its activations while in its controller's command range, a warjack conrtolled by a 'jack marshal can gain one of the following benefits: (etc)

[FeignLife]

So I presume you don't consider the fact that if I kill the not really that hard to kill Wrong eye, I insta kill Snap Jaw, a non-weakness? I have found the companion rule liability on minion Warlocks to be there undoing more times then not.

I find it a justifiable weakness truth be told especially considering the context of the comparison between the two.

Submerge is better than Stealth, and unless Snapjaw dies, Wrong Eye will always be protected from ranged and magic attacks, leaving him only needing melee screening. Meaning cheap bodies are needed to interject melee threats on his behalf (hello Cryx).

Of course it's a problem. No model is perfect ([humor]except the Deathjack[/humor]), but models can be more efficient than others. I happen to think that WE&S are more efficient than the ILO+Seether combo.

[DemonCalibre]

I find it a justifiable weakness truth be told especially considering the context of the comparison between the two.

Submerge is better than Stealth, and unless Snapjaw dies, Wrong Eye will always be protected from ranged and magic attacks, leaving him only needing melee screening. Meaning cheap bodies are needed to interject melee threats on his behalf (hello Cryx).

Of course it's a problem. No model is perfect ([humor]except the Deathjack[/humor]), but models can be more efficient than others. I happen to think that WE&S are more efficient than the ILO+Seether combo.

that's fair

[Deo85]

Good argument for taking another WWS. Bad argument for taking the ILO.

You have evidently never wanted to put your siren in mid field to spray or bind up a jack... Or hell even move it further then its target is getting to. What I mean is if you are focus boosting a target then you most times are parallel with your target so people don't get back strikes on your guy. Meaning that you cant go past the edge of your power boost target which limits you by your targets movement. Now granted if its a SPD 6+ jack then it will out distance your marshal before you can give it another focus. Meaning that your SPD 7 just got reduced to a speed 11 Run jack so your losing 3" in the process less you need to use that for wiggle room.

Can the Sirens do more tools for there bucks? Yes. Is this a good thing? Pends are you ever using said tools? because if your not because you don't want to "lose" your preshase 2 pnt focus hand out then there a waist of points on you.