You Know What? I Actually Like Cygnar

[Eagle dan 4]

Sure! Two things I've been having fun using in pStryker lists are the Storm Strider and the Forge Guard + Murdoch. The Storm Strider benefits from Snipe and both get a lot out of AS. I bring a JWC so both are ARM 26 on the feat turn. And, with Murdoch attached to the dwarves, your shooty unit of choice can fire through them.

At first it felt a little counterintuitive because most of Murdoch's abilities don't apply to the dwarves but... ARM 26, man!

this sounds pretty dam fun, i keep meaning to pick up some forge guard and murdoch, this might just finally swing it lol

[Sardonic Artery]

I don't run forgeguard with pStryker, simply because no matter how high I get their armor, they still die to anything that auto-wounds. pStryker with a lancer used to be gospel though. These days, a lot of us are leaving that 6-point arc node out for more troops.

[Sacredsouless]

Gotta say, I haven't been able to play since September '11 (it takes a surprising amount of time to go from raw civilian to a fleet Marine) and between my 3 forces (Cygnar, Menoth, and pigs), I am looking forward to working with and playing my cygnar the most.

[Sardonic Artery]

Atta boy, Sacredsouless. Got any games in yet?

I meant to make this year the year of the Haleys and Kraye, and though I've dabbled in pHaley, I've really been enjoying Kara again (thanks, DinoCzar). I played two games back-to-back with her. The first was against Carver, a few beasts, Rorsh and Brine, and a slew of those dug in warrior models. I about killed every model on his side before putting Carver down. Second game was against Strakhov. When my opponent left me a sliver of his caster pre-feat, I put him down with a couple of boosted weapon master shots. No attrition needed that game!

Makes me feel pretty rad as both of them are good players.

[Sacredsouless]

Atta boy, Sacredsouless. Got any games in yet?

Alas, no. I'm waiting another week to pick up school and the about 6 weeks of school before I get a duty station. Then much games will be had.


Really excited for war room to come out. With it I can start playing using tape and little circles of the right size (we famously adapt and overcome after all). Get my roommates to play to I will.

[DemonCalibre]

I actually like Cygnar a great deal, after crunching a massive 20 games in 4 weeks with my Swans(Split between Sloan and pHaley), I find myself enjoying them greatly.

I have a few day late and dollar short games where I just couldn't leverage enough power(and one disastrous game against pThags). I have been getting consistently better. I just fine between the two casters I play I can have a hard time finishing(and dealing with Pin Lists).

The thing I will say, Cygnar is a weird faction to play, I have played most of the factions in the game(Khador, Protectorate, Mercs, Retribution, Cryx, Skorne, Circle) in MK2, and I find that Cygnar has a very different rhythm then the others(Protectorate/Khador/Retribution). I am still working out the hand to hand aspect, I keep finding my hand to hand units just not doing enough in hand to hand. Though I am thinking about reaching back for Storm Guard, which I haven't played since the last time I played Swans, as I recall they are pretty boss.

[sleet01]

Stormguard really benefit from to-hit buffs because both of their special offensive abilities - e-leap and Electrical Discharge - are effective in direct proportion to their hit rate. pHaley, eHaley, pStryker, eStryker, Blaize with Transference up, and Runewood are good. There's a bit of Skornergy with pHaley, though, since Temporal Barrier prevents the charges and impact attacks that the Stormguard pay extra for protection against.

[GreenJello]

The thing I will say, Cygnar is a weird faction to play, I have played most of the factions in the game(Khador, Protectorate, Mercs, Retribution, Cryx, Skorne, Circle) in MK2, and I find that Cygnar has a very different rhythm then the others(Protectorate/Khador/Retribution).

With the exception of Retribution, they're the only serious ranged faction in the game. The rest of the factions are melee with a bit of ranged to taste. Cygnar is range with a bit of melee to taste.

[Sardonic Artery]

With the exception of Retribution, they're the only serious ranged faction in the game. The rest of the factions are melee with a bit of ranged to taste. Cygnar is range with a bit of melee to taste.

I disagree. We do combined arms best. You can lean ranged in that, but it's just that: a slight lean. (Well, you can do whatever you want, but I find our gunlines have too many bad match ups and we just don't do it well enough -- unlike say, certain Ret and Legion builds that are truly tournament worthy.)

[DemonCalibre]

With the exception of Retribution, they're the only serious ranged faction in the game. The rest of the factions are melee with a bit of ranged to taste. Cygnar is range with a bit of melee to taste.

I actually don't think Retribution is a "Ranged" faction. Most of their units that shoot aren't great. you have MHSF/Invics and that is about it. Invics are also cheaters, because they are also hard to kill, and can fight in hand to hand, and are decent shots. It also comes down to Sentinels, they are the difference maker for Ret.

Give me Sents(A Tough, Fight Anything Unit) in Swans, and cash money I increase my Win Ratio by about 10% maybe more.

That hand to hand go to guy is always the hiccup when I play Swans, I can avoid, and control combat for so long, then eventually they punch through and my army falls to pieces, and my melee elements are generally really crappy at one thing, or another and I end the game with my opponent owning a model or models I can't effectively kill and it puts him over the top.

Though the more I think about it, I wish I had bought Storm Guard over PKs. from my last run of Swans I liked those guys a ton.

[withershadow]

I think everyone here "likes" Cygnar, that doesn't change the fact that the faction needs some serious work.

[GreenJello]

I disagree. We do combined arms best. You can lean ranged in that, but it's just that: a slight lean. (Well, you can do whatever you want, but I find our gunlines have too many bad match ups and we just don't do it well enough -- unlike say, certain Ret and Legion builds that are truly tournament worthy.)

Sorry, I didn't say "best", I said that we're a ranged faction. I also don't like the term "combined arms" because it doesn't say anything. Everybody does "combined arms" in this game. You'll notice I said as much in the original post. The rest of the factions are melee with a bit of ranged to taste. Cygnar is range with a bit of melee to taste.

Take a look at the releases, and we've had maybe 3 dedicated melee units (Precursors, Sword Knights, Storm Guard), compared to 6 serious ranged units (Commandos, Long Gunners, Trenchers, ATGM, Rangers, and B13), and 2 combined arms units (Stormblades, Stormlances). You might slide the Stormblades into melee, and the Trencher Infantry into combined arms, but we're still mostly ranged units. Further, most of the original releases were all ranged units, the melee units came several books into the release cycle.

For Jacks we have 3 (4 with stormclad) dedicated melee jacks (Ironclad, Centurion, Hammersmith). The Lancer is debatable, because with an Arc node it does NOT want to be in melee. Ranged jacks are 7 (Charger, Firefly, Hunter, Minuteman, Sentinel, Avenger, Defender). We've got some mixed use jacks, and almost all of our ranged jacks have credible melee threats, at least enough to use in a pinch, but the power is in the ranged attacks.

Casters are much harder to pin down, but we currently have only 1 without a ranged attack (Blaize) and some of the best ranged attack casters in the game (Sloan, Caine1, Caine2, Siege) and maybe 1 serious melee caster (Stryker).

[Garath]

What happens often to me while playing is a constant feeling of many cc cygnar units having abilities you pay for but can't get to use...

Examples:

SK have flank which requires a jack with reach...Stormclad,ceturion or lancer being obvious choices...if you jack marshall them they don't require focus from the caster and also can't get it if you need them too...
Having a firefly would solve that problem....cheapish jack with reach and provides flank...but lame in cc and lame at shooting with no focus

In that situation, your paying points for a unit which can marshall but it's not a win-win situation ...if you do marshall you can't use focus..if you don't marshall you're not using all options given,but you pay for them.
You could take arlan to give the jack focus...but that's even more pts

Each and every cygnar cc unit has stuff like that - stuff you can't use all the time but pay for ...all the time



Greenjello made a excellent point about cygnar being a ranged faction...and we have a single weapon master with a ranged weapon in the game..


I love playing cygnar and win way more then i lose- but between all those pow 10-12 ranged attacks one thing comes to mind...

All cc factions have one way or another of protecting their guys from shooting...clouds,stealth,concielment ,cover,def buffs,wind wall,gatorlake by P.I.Tschaikovsky...why can't we get a spell where we can't get targeted by melee attacks?

[GreenJello]

All cc factions have one way or another of protecting their guys from shooting...clouds,stealth,concielment ,cover,def buffs,wind wall,gatorlake by P.I.Tschaikovsky...why can't we get a spell where we can't get targeted by melee attacks?

The great god Jason Soles secretly hates us, and subtly undermines the faction to get back at Matt Ward, the CEO.

Honestly, I think that this is a VERY good question. Stealth is a pretty strong FU to range, but it's counterpart Incorporeal isn't given out to everybody and his brother. While I can sympathize with not getting some situational abilities to work from time to time, the ability of Cryx and Legion to field entire Stealthed armies is a huge hard counter to any Ranged faction in the game. Yet, somehow we don't see entire Incorporeal armies, and I believe only one Incorporeal unit (Black Bane's Ghost Raiders).

I suspect that since most of the armies in the game are melee focused, they're much more hesitant to add in serious melee nerfs, while Stealth isn't as big an issue to them. Heck, I'm not even all that upset about a unit or two. It's the entire armies that make whole units useless that I find super annoying.

[kolonelk]

Greenjello made a excellent point about cygnar being a ranged faction...and we have a single weapon master with a ranged weapon in the game..

To make it worse, without mercs we've got two weapon masters total. One caster, one solo.

[Garath]

I suspect that since most of the armies in the game are melee focused, they're much more hesitant to add in serious melee nerfs, while Stealth isn't as big an issue to them. Heck, I'm not even all that upset about a unit or two. It's the entire armies that make whole units useless that I find super annoying.

This is perhaps less of an issue for a ranged army if you don't include:
Longgunners, Trenchers, Chargers,Sentinels,Nyss hunters ,Ranged heavies etc...eycept cyclone. Those covering fire templates sure bone them up good.

But your point stands.

I stopped fielding Longgunners 3 years ago,and have been playing for 5.

And you mentioned you don't mind loosing a situational abillity or 2- I don't either...but I DO mind paying for them in every single model.
I wish we had a cc unit which has move 6, weapon master,reach Mat 7 ,tough and decent stats- no whield wall ,no nothing,no pronto ,no immunity to lightning(and really is a HUGE BOOST ) and costing say min 5 for 6 guys,10 for 10 guys.
Hell,call them assault commando trenchers...

[GreenJello]

This is perhaps less of an issue for a ranged army if you don't include:
Longgunners, Trenchers, Chargers,Sentinels,Nyss hunters ,Ranged heavies etc...eycept cyclone. Those covering fire templates sure bone them up good.

The trenchers aren't as bad as the LGs, since they can assault. The LGs are just seriously, seriously boned. As a result I will NOT put them in a take all comers list that doesn't also include the B13 for Fire Beacon.

Also, once you get to an ability that completely shuts down an entire attack style (melee, magic, ranged), it effectively removes those units from the game, and makes the game less interesting. There's a reason why the ATGM are in almost every single Cygnar list, with the Dude as an auto include, they don't suffer from stealth. If this was not the case the game would be more interesting, since there would be more options.

And you mentioned you don't mind loosing a situational abillity or 2- I don't either...but I DO mind paying for them in every single model.

Do you? I'm honestly not sure. The problem with situational abilities is that they're so hard to cost. If something works exceptionally well against some units, it's under costed against them, and if it doesn't work well against others it's overcosted against them. I suspect that the game designers sorta just throw a dart at the problem, or over cost the unit, assuming best case for the abilities. "Bargains" are more of an issue than over costed stuff. OTOH, most of the "bargain" units work against the vast majority of things in the game. (Bane Thralls and Dygmies spring to mind)

[Garath]

Ok, you're right trenchers are ok...if you snipe them and AD and start lobbing those AOE early on ...and retreat and shoot some more. Min unit+UA+Finn can work ok for the points.

Do I? - I really do!

Here's why - take Khador or Protectorate heavy stuff it either is dirt cheap or expensive but worht it- not the case with Cygnar jacks. Why on earth does Stormclad have a gun with short range and crappy aim...in turn costing it's cost and let's be honest if it's using it's gun you're probbably doing something wrong- and paying premium points for it.
And still - we all use the rest of the model (like it's sword for example) and we all say it's a great jack - and it is.

Hopefully your theory on game balance costly/ok - chaep/problem is right- we can only guess.

What is saw just the other day was this 50 pts list from Perkins (UK champ playing Khador- there's a surprise )

Old witch
Scrap jack
Behemoth
Devastator

Full unit of winter guard with UA and roketeers and JO
Full unit of Nyss hunters

Aiyanna and Holdt
Gorman di Wulfe
Eyris(?)

Can't remember exactly that's beside the point. He is a very good player (check the youtube linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SicoDndVdY0 ) playing a different army here.
The point of me mentioning him within a disscussion on Cygnar is that I feel the 2012 SR has changed the way the game will be played (if you strive to be competitive that is...page 5 and all that jazz) .

In the Old Witch list he has:
2 jacks which A destroy infantry with ease
B destroy jacks
C throw them away.
They both do it with a 2 focus investment

Then he has 2 units which can destroy soft-medium targets without any help- and both have a ranged and a melee attack which is very ,very deadly.
And some support solos to help deal even more damage.



After this , I strongly reconsidered my approach...and I'll never play against Perkins,but since the list and idea is out there- anyone can try and play in and I might play against such a player with such a list.
That is what combined arms REALLY is- they ALL shoot AND charge you!!

So apart from gun mages/b13 which I have to take if I'm facing stealth (and we all know many many many fine units have it )- what Cygnar units do we have that could mimic such play style ?- cuz frankly that's a winner type of a list!
It's agressive,has lots of models ,has all power attacks,has sprays ,has a large unit with tough, has magical attacks AND it outnumbers the opponent if you start taking support stuff like squire,junior,piper and Co.

We have Nyss hunters with Murdoch (just like Khador does) ,we have Boomhowler for tough shooty/stabby ...and? Don't say Stormblades-


?

[Optimus Bryan]

The core of the problem here is the nature of the Combined Ranged Attack. When you mention a CRA, people immediately think "Gun lines", and Gun lines aren't much fun (to play with OR against).

Screening was the solution to this Mk I, and when screening went away with Mk II, the fear of gun lines returned. So models with CRA have had their costs raised to reflect the massive potential that multiple CRAs bring to the table. Unfortunately, this potential is purely that- potential. Theory machine says that a full unit of Long Gunners can put out 2 POW 21 attacks; add in Snipe and Deadeye and they're coming from 18" and 18 + 3d6 to hit. I have never pulled this off against anyone; even a first time player saw it coming. With LOS requirements, engagement rules, poor defensive stats, enemy stealth, and speedy alpha-strike combos, it just isn't an option.

Combine this with competitive play rule sets that emphasize quick engagements, prohibit stalling, and opponent armies built to maximize the alpha-strike, and it only gets worse. We have models that are costed higher than they can deliver.

We need to find ways to maximize CRAs under realistic game conditions. We, as a faction, are also better equipped than most to do this. The plethora of knockdown abilities is a great start (and I think PP acknowledged this by designing the Avenger).

We also have some good to very good light 'jacks that can span the gap between light and heavy infantry. While certainly not hard to crack, ARM 16 with 26 damage boxes is a helluva lot tougher than any solo. 'Jacks want focus, but don't need any. Your opponent doesn't know if that Charger is going to shoot twice, slam his heavy, or take a single shot next turn, but he has to perceive it as a threat.

The Storm Strider is another tool- it provides a moving weapons platform that is resistant to alpha-strike. Our ability to take mercenaries is also important. We are balanced for mercs, and they are balanced to Cygnar.

I think our best bet is to use all tools we have available (including Nyss and Boomhowlers!) and to allow Mk II to develop. Lets act like adults, continue to rationally discuss our perceptions, and most importantly PLAY. If only one or two Cygnar armies show up at Major Cons, their losing will not really illustrate any short comings. I still think the sample size we have of major con data is too small for large scale extrapolations, right now all I see is "Good players are Good".

[SillySod]

I like long gunners. With proper support they always bring home the bacon

While I can sympathize with not getting some situational abilities to work from time to time, the ability of Cryx and Legion to field entire Stealthed armies is a huge hard counter to any Ranged faction in the game. Yet, somehow we don't see entire Incorporeal armies, and I believe only one Incorporeal unit (Black Bane's Ghost Raiders).

While there are alot of functional stealth unis, I find that actual mono-stealth armies are a bit of a myth. There are definately some out there but there arent many and very few are tip top competitive. The only ones that I can think of are...
- Witch Coven of Ghalghast
- Goreshade with banespam
- eKaya
- eLylyth
-
- Kaelyssa/Grayle

Not many of those are great compteitive choices and almost all of them are extreme choices that need to be counterlisted even without the stealth aspect.

[Calibre]

The great god Jason Soles secretly hates us, and subtly undermines the faction to get back at Matt Ward, the CEO.

Honestly, I think that this is a VERY good question. Stealth is a pretty strong FU to range, but it's counterpart Incorporeal isn't given out to everybody and his brother. While I can sympathize with not getting some situational abilities to work from time to time, the ability of Cryx and Legion to field entire Stealthed armies is a huge hard counter to any Ranged faction in the game. Yet, somehow we don't see entire Incorporeal armies, and I believe only one Incorporeal unit (Black Bane's Ghost Raiders).

I suspect that since most of the armies in the game are melee focused, they're much more hesitant to add in serious melee nerfs, while Stealth isn't as big an issue to them. Heck, I'm not even all that upset about a unit or two. It's the entire armies that make whole units useless that I find super annoying.

LOL stealth infantry I can deal with, they're nasty but we can deal with them Stealth beasts/battlegroup is just one BIG FU. Back on topic I've recently found a whole new love for Flinn, was playing him and his band of misfits against some skorne. He ended up taking on a band of pain givers by himself clearing them out and then next turn strafed warlock to his death. My friend couldn't stop cursing and I continued to chuckle every now and again 2 days after that. Its really moments like that makes Cygnar fun to play with

[PG_GrimmRiggins]

I once used Finn to bounce Chain Lightnings into a Feated eSkarre. 1st CL kills him but he makes his tough save. 2nd CL drops eSkarre to 2 hit points. I can just imagine the old trencher commander standing up and yelling "what the bleedin' hell is wrong wit' ya!?!" at Nemo, his face blackened with soot.

[Sacredsouless]

I love the fact that we got our colossal first, and it looks amazing.

[Sardonic Artery]

Do you like
that colossal price?

That colossal price
that colossal price!
I do not like
that colossal price

I do not like it
Privateer heist
I do not like
that colossal price

Would you like it
Here or there?

I would not like it
here or there.
I would not like them
anywhere.
I do not like
that colossal price.
I do not like it,
Privateer heist.

[Sardonic Artery]

Put my Seuss rhyme in the general $135 price discussion thread and it got locked -- :/ -- so I guess I'll say my big gripe is this: With these types of high-price items, I see getting priced out of the game. That's not a doom statement; that's a personal financial decision.

[sleet01]

Well, with the doom and gloom we're apparently all spreading around, I wouldn't be surprised to find a great Cygnar army going for cheap on eBay. In fact, the Muse on Minis guys commented on that in their latest podcast. ^_^

[Lanz]

Put my Seuss rhyme in the general $135 price discussion thread and it got locked -- :/ -- so I guess I'll say my big gripe is this: With these types of high-price items, I see getting priced out of the game. That's not a doom statement; that's a personal financial decision.

I guess you didn't read the rest of the posts in that thread prior to being locked then.

[Sardonic Artery]

I did. I just didn't get a chance to respond to others after.

Well, with the doom and gloom we're apparently all spreading around, I wouldn't be surprised to find a great Cygnar army going for cheap on eBay. In fact, the Muse on Minis guys commented on that in their latest podcast. ^_^

Not yet. I've been rumored to make threads about liking Cygnar...

I think the affect won't be on any one specific faction though.

[bouncymischa]

Put my Seuss rhyme in the general $135 price discussion thread and it got locked -- :/ -- so I guess I'll say my big gripe is this: With these types of high-price items, I see getting priced out of the game. That's not a doom statement; that's a personal financial decision.

I'm not entirely sure how a high price tag on one or two models prices you out of the game, unless you consider it somehow absolutely necessary to own every single model.

Nor do I see how it could be associated with being a criminal act... <.<

[Sardonic Artery]

I'm not entirely sure how a high price tag on one or two models prices you out of the game, unless you consider it somehow absolutely necessary to own every single model.

Nor do I see how it could be associated with being a criminal act... <.<

Ha. I needed something to rhyme with "price."

[Halfhoot]

Yea... just don't see the problem here. If people can't afford it... don't buy it. Problem solved. You'll still be able to play games juuuuust fine.

[PG_Tommeh]

I can understand it will be a lot of money for those on limited budgets but let's not kid ourselves here; this is an expensive hobby.

[bouncymischa]

Ha. I needed something to rhyme with "price."

Mice? Thrice? I bet you could've done something with cake and "a slice"! :P

[Jonmarc Albac]

[QUOTE=Sardonic Artery;1285202]Glad to see you on this thread, Jonmarc. I appreciated your comments on some of the other threads. A lot of this sad forum is in need of an elbow drop.

Well I try to keep a positive mind. See I failed my rolls for ground pounder, so that pretty much screwed me over. But luckily I was playing a dual army match, and my partner was Mercs so they had me covered fairly well. I was going to post a comment on that last Cygnar discussion thread, but it was closed before I could make the comment on how adaptive Cygnar can be, so you can take that bad "we're a well-balanced so that hurts us" statement and change it up a bit.

-Jonmarc T. Albac

[RidetheLightning]

To the original post: THANK YOU!!! When I first decided to look into a Warmachine faction, many of my friends/opponents made the usual suggestions of Khador and Menoth. But when it came to play my first game (thanks to my friend's models) I chose Cygnar. I did so because of the overall "feel" I got from the faction. I loved the idea of whittling my opponents down from afar, clearing units out with Electro Leap, being able to pop Eiryss in the skull from halfway across the field (ok, I only gained that joy later on, but it had to be mentioned), and the overall comraderie of the faction. Really synergy should be changed to Cygnargy in the dictionary!! I love the boys and girls in blue!!

[Sacredsouless]

To the original post: THANK YOU!!! When I first decided to look into a Warmachine faction, many of my friends/opponents made the usual suggestions of Khador and Menoth. But when it came to play my first game (thanks to my friend's models) I chose Cygnar. I did so because of the overall "feel" I got from the faction. I loved the idea of whittling my opponents down from afar, clearing units out with Electro Leap, being able to pop Eiryss in the skull from halfway across the field (ok, I only gained that joy later on, but it had to be mentioned), and the overall comraderie of the faction. Really synergy should be changed to Cygnargy in the dictionary!! I love the boys and girls in blue!!

This enthusiasm truly brings a smile to my face. Can't wait till May. Going home so I'll be able to pick up my models and sneak in a couple games.

[Lankycheese]

After starting out with eNemo with excitement I kept losing through poor position and not utilising my jacks enough. Well recently I picked up eStryker and went for a more melee centered army with swordknights and boomhowlers. Played my first game with him yesterday which also turned into my first real win!

Was against Menoth with Reznik, his Avatar and big heavy infantry minced up all of my army except for Stryker and Runewood. Runewood then gave pathfinder to Stryker and he charged over my wrecked lancer right into Reznik after overloading on 1 dice to get +5 str! He killed Reznik with focus to spare and proceeded to kill the Avatar which was still in his front arc!

Really love eStryker and his playstyle. Move up and buff your army but then if it all hits the fan he can still jump right in for a glorious lass stand. Just thought I'd post this up as a newbie who's excited about his first real victory with Cygnar.

[gelfy]

Reason i like The swans is this. Cheers to lockjaw for the find.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17736292


DONT BEEEP WITH THE SWAN.

[Sardonic Artery]

Yeah, I like Cygnar for all of those reasons, too. Now go make Constance work!

Hey there, wayback machine, let's necro an old post: I never picked her up, but apparently someone just won with her at a tournie (at 25 points, running around on the front lines with ARM 25).

[Sardonic Artery]

To the original post: THANK YOU!!! When I first decided to look into a Warmachine faction, many of my friends/opponents made the usual suggestions of Khador and Menoth. But when it came to play my first game (thanks to my friend's models) I chose Cygnar. I did so because of the overall "feel" I got from the faction. I loved the idea of whittling my opponents down from afar, clearing units out with Electro Leap, being able to pop Eiryss in the skull from halfway across the field (ok, I only gained that joy later on, but it had to be mentioned), and the overall comraderie of the faction. Really synergy should be changed to Cygnargy in the dictionary!! I love the boys and girls in blue!!

You're welcome, mate.

Finally won with my 35-point Godzilla pNemo list:

pNemo
-Thunderhead
-Hammersmith
-Thorn
-Squire
Aiyana and Holt
Arlan Strangewayes
Journeyman Warcaster
Gorman

The list is fun as all get out, but man do you feel it when you lose pieces (sorry, Junior, you got microwaved by T-head for being the only guy who can't shoot in Cygnar). I've had my fair share of struggles with this list -- one game I missed four chain lightning rolls in a turn (three attempts, with one re-roll from the squire) needing 4s -- dice rage! -- and got eaten by the 20 banes I would've made extra crispy -- but I finally got my Hammersmith to work well. I chain-smited a Nomad into a wall (boost those initial hits, kids) and hammered Damiano's steelhead flat before getting to chain-smite him into a pile of rocks. The old man, of course, hid behind a forest with a smoke-bomb in front of him.