Tactica: Thyra, Flame of Sorrow or THE SHADOW??

[Silverstar843]

I've tried them and I'm not a fan. Generally have a dislike of Rhoven unless he's doing something directly for the list's main trick. Carnage makes them Mat 10, which is damn near disgusting, but I feel they make a horrible target for stealth. You can generally get more out of Occultation on a larger unit or a jack. Hordes hates dealing with this guy because of negation, but Thyra has a hard counter to Hordes through silence of death. As far as Cleanse, I've never found a use for it. Getting rid of annoying animi is alright, but there really aren't that many defensive ones that menoth cares about. Arm 20 Carnivean? Whatever...hit for 11, I take 2. Menoth's sight is ok if you're shooting, but Thyra favors a highly melee-centric army. If you have 4 points left to blow, Rhoven might be alright for you, but he and his guards really have no synergy with Thyra.

[jandrese]

One synergy Rhoven has is that he's a Field Commander, and Thyra tends to field a fair number of CMD 8 troops. That does mean he needs to run further ahead than the normally does though, and he won't help much if Thyra is also running ahead to abuse Carnage.

[Silverstar843]

Well, most units I like her with are fearless or never getting attacked OR don't matter if they run. I would debate the use of bringing any model solely for a CMD buff. Morale could pretty much be removed from the game and you wouldn't notice, but this is another topic.

[jandrese]

You don't bring Daughters of the Flame with her?

[Silverstar843]

Almost all games I do. What gave you the idea that I didn't? They aren't exactly essential with her, but carnage makes them amazing verses living models. Vengeance rarely helps them. I've found it helps them more to get the extra 3" to their charge target. Daughters have a tendency to stay way far away from their charge target, so the 3" move and attack usually gets wasted. If they want to charge some juicy target that was 13" away before, though, now they can. Vengeance is a lot more dangerous on a larger unit that is hard to kill (see Skorne units).

Silence of death is absolutely disgusting on them...
"Hey, Warlock...w'sup?"
"Oh God! Just take my wallet and leave!"

If you're talking about taking them with the Field Commander, honestly, a seneschal would work better, imo. Even Thyra can just stick reasonably near them.

[mcpolle]

Couple of things here,

Corbeau and Orrik, I can find Corbeau, but who is Orrik,

Also Saxon has been named, who is that???

Have just bought the Thyra model, and am really looking forward to giving her a go.

Polle

[PG_gdaybloke]

Saxon would be Orrik... as in, Saxon Orrik.

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gal...os/saxon-orrik

[Menoth's Bishop]

I think Thyra has some synergy with Rhoven. They can make her ignore stealth, so she can put persuit and stranglehold on that kind of models. If she is on fire, or corrosion, its a lifesaver. Finally, if unchecked, bodyguards charging on feat and carnage are Mat 10, power 11- 13 weaponmasters 12" threats. A couple of strikes could kill a caster

[jandrese]

Almost all games I do. What gave you the idea that I didn't?

Your comment about not caring about CMD buffs because you take fearless troops mostly.

I do love putting Grievous Wounds on the Daughters, since if you use their Vengeance attack to place the effect on warbeasts/warlocks you don't need to upkeep it and can cycle it off to some other unit for free or let it drop. The only caveat is that MAT 6 is not great, so it can be somewhat difficult to get it placed. I often end up having to pay the upkeep simply because the Daughter whiffed her attack.

[PG_strangedane]

Since this is a Canon thread I assume this is not thread necroing..

Has anyone tried to bring a lot of solos with her, maybe with the Vessel to capitalize on their deaths? With Carnage and feat things like Seneschals, Vilmon and friends, Nicia etc are DISGUSTING - in a beautiful way.

[garwjenk]

Has anyone tried to bring a lot of solos with her, maybe with the Vessel to capitalize on their deaths? With Carnage and feat things like Seneschals, Vilmon and friends, Nicia etc are DISGUSTING - in a beautiful way.

I have used the Senny quite a bit with her, the 2 inch extra range really catches people off-guard and with carnage they are hitting with 2, possibly 3 attacks at MAT 10, very tasty. Plus they pair well with the Covenant, which I normally bring with her.

I haven't had much luck with Nicia, as she is always singled out by my opponents, but it is always amusing watching how much of their army they dedicate to killing her.

[PG_strangedane]

I think I want to try out Vilmon with her, give him Stealth and move him up in Impervious - now THAT is hard to take out! With Feat, he comes swingin from 13" out, with Mat 11! Next turn (if there is one!) the Vessel gives him another swing!

[Mathai]

Its a little off topic, but as it WAS brought up in topic so...why is the Blessing of Vengance's Defensive Strike not all that good since Mk.1? Having never played the initial edition, I can't compare the two, but the strike when used with his repulsor shield seems to me like it forces the other guy/gal to plan on charging in at least two things if they want to hit the BoV. I know reach will throw a wrench in that thought, but even then they have a small window of guesstimated space between being inside the distance needed to hit twice before repulsed out of melee range, but outside the .5" of the shield pushing them back. So even then, they only get one attack off before they hope to get lucky and get to make a second strike at all on this little arc node.

[Snipafist]

Its a little off topic, but as it WAS brought up in topic so...why is the Blessing of Vengance's Defensive Strike not all that good since Mk.1? Having never played the initial edition, I can't compare the two, but the strike when used with his repulsor shield seems to me like it forces the other guy/gal to plan on charging in at least two things if they want to hit the BoV. I know reach will throw a wrench in that thought, but even then they have a small window of guesstimated space between being inside the distance needed to hit twice before repulsed out of melee range, but outside the .5" of the shield pushing them back. So even then, they only get one attack off before they hope to get lucky and get to make a second strike at all on this little arc node.

The MAT is too low to ward off high DEF troops and solos and the POW is too low to meaningfully damage other jacks or medium infantry. It succeeds at scaring aware only the most mediocre and small-sized of melee infantry units.

Also, you can measure your reach at any time. A model with reach can get to exactly where he needs to be.

[Mathai]

Mat 7 can hit Def 14 with slightly above average expectancies. I've never encountered heavy hitting Infantry (Solos not included) to have defense higher than that. Though I admit I have yet to encounter alot of the things in this game. But I do agree that if its not the shield doing the defensive hit, its not gonna be that big a deal. And while I do see my logic trip up on how exact a charge measuring can be, I dont think that those reach threats will always have the luxury of getting those perfect placements. They may be keeping back enough and charging their full distance just to get into strike range, let alone have the chance to decide how exactly far in they can make that charge. There are alot of battlefield variables that can keep it from being perfect.

[darisus]

I am pretty sure you can't push people with the shield on a defensive strike. Repel states it only works during your activation, or when an enemy model hits you with a melee attack. Since defensive strike is an out of activation attack repel will not trigger. It will work with bushwack since that is during your activation.

Defensive strike MK1 was awesome because if you hit, the target got -2 mat and it was boosted. The choir battle buff used to last the whole round and not a turn like now so all your defensive strike jacks also had the +2hit/damage buff. The Amon devout spam list was pretty awesome back in MK1, it is a reason alot of us MK1 players may have 3 or 4 devouts lying around holding down papers and stuff.

[jandrese]

For comparision:

Mk 1 Defensive Strike: +2 to-hit, auto boosted damage, targets hit suffered -2 to their attack rolls, and it triggered whenever someone finished their movement in melee range of the jack. This means even if you forfeited movement, the jack still got the defensive strike. Also, Infuse (what is now called Hymn of Battle) lasted the whole round, so you might have an additional +2/+2 on that. Devouts would do more damage out of activation than they did during their turn.

Mk 2 Defensive Strike: Plain vanilla attack with no bonuses or debuffs, model has to enter and end their movement in your melee range to trigger it. Hymn of Battle expires before it can happen.

If you are counting, that's 5 different nerfs to the power between Mk 1 and Mk 2, all of them meaningful. I dare you to put 5 meaningful nerfs on ANY power in the game and still have it be worthwhile. While Mk 1 Defensive Strike was pretty overpowered, PP really went too far with the nerfs in Mk 2.

It is a bit better on the BoV because it has +1 MAT and especially with pSevvy because Eye of Menoth will also be active (MAT 8 P+S 14 total). Repel on the shield doesn't work with a Defensive Strike though.

[Baensidhe]

I think it bears mentioning, because Protectorate warcasters play a certain way; our Choir and Covenant and Vassals move with our warcasters sort of in the middle; with Severius and the Harbinger and some of the others the Protectorate kinda...rumbles forward.

Thyra isn't like that. I have found I have the best results when she's constantly moving; she's not a bishop or a queen, she's the knight. It's why arc nodes are a good idea for her, even with her relatively small control area.

Keep her moving, make your opponent react to her changing position on the field.

Baensidhe
Names his warjacks after popes

[Bollster]

Thyra isn't like that. I have found I have the best results when she's constantly moving; she's not a bishop or a queen, she's the knight. It's why arc nodes are a good idea for her, even with her relatively small control area.

Keep her moving, make your opponent react to her changing position on the field.

True story. This works particularly well on squishier casters who can be kept terrified by the prospect of Thyra starting her activation 12 inches or less from them. Using her mobility to jump her around behind your front line keeps their caster way up the back and limits the impact they can have on the game. Alternatively they take the risk, giving Thyra, Nicea, BoM or whatever other hard hitting, mobile units you have vectors to assassinate.

[Masanori]

hrmmm but keeping her moving means xposing her unless we have a large army to hide her behind

[Bollster]

She can take some exposure. Def 17, stealth if you think she needs it. As long as you keep her safe from Knockdown, she can jump around behind a screen of TFG without too much risk.

[volt_ron]

I have some musings on her theme force, the Black Widows, on my blog here.

Not trying to spam my blog or anything, just didn't think it right to copy-paste a wall o text here.

TL;DR: An army of acrobats is awesome. And a Sanctifier is really good with it.

[Themainmenoth]

Don't forget that Rosh is a lesser warlock that can take any pig'beast, With Road hog out, he can give Thyra sprint! may actually be worth the 18 points (thanks to the Road hog being pretty fury efficient and brine's effective 10 threshold)

[Outbreak]

If you choose to run vigilants, at the end of the first turn they can be 25" up the table with stealth and providing blast damage protection to a unit of daughters. Stealthed daughters immune to blast damage? yes please.

(personally i take this to the extreme, at 35 points i run 4 units and 4 vigilants)

[Silverstar843]

I have found the Vigilant to be a great addition with her. Stealth armor 21 models are pretty annoying. The main thing, is yes, the Girded ability for both Thyra and the Daughters. I had Zaal's eyeball laser drop her by like half after a lucky scatter, once.

And also, yes, Baen, her style is totally different than any other caster we have. Her maneuverability and possibly pursuit mean that she can easily retreat, or change direction when she needs to.

[Outbreak]

I have found the Vigilant to be a great addition with her. Stealth armor 21 models are pretty annoying. The main thing, is yes, the Girded ability for both Thyra and the Daughters. I had Zaal's eyeball laser drop her by like half after a lucky scatter, once.

if you get the opportunity:
carnage, 2H throw (bonus to hit), toss at opposing caster (bonus to hit). both suffer knockdown. Daughters charge, all auto hit, and at worst you have anatomical precision times 8-12 hits

[PG_strangedane]

I had Zaal's eyeball laser drop her by like half after a lucky scatter, once.

His weapon is not an AoE?

[Baensidhe]

For comparision:

Mk 1 Defensive Strike: +2 to-hit, auto boosted damage, targets hit suffered -2 to their attack rolls, and it triggered whenever someone finished their movement in melee range of the jack. This means even if you forfeited movement, the jack still got the defensive strike. Also, Infuse (what is now called Hymn of Battle) lasted the whole round, so you might have an additional +2/+2 on that. Devouts would do more damage out of activation than they did during their turn.

Mk 2 Defensive Strike: Plain vanilla attack with no bonuses or debuffs, model has to enter and end their movement in your melee range to trigger it. Hymn of Battle expires before it can happen.

If you are counting, that's 5 different nerfs to the power between Mk 1 and Mk 2, all of them meaningful. I dare you to put 5 meaningful nerfs on ANY power in the game and still have it be worthwhile. While Mk 1 Defensive Strike was pretty overpowered, PP really went too far with the nerfs in Mk 2.

It is a bit better on the BoV because it has +1 MAT and especially with pSevvy because Eye of Menoth will also be active (MAT 8 P+S 14 total). Repel on the shield doesn't work with a Defensive Strike though.

If they had just included Defensive Strike's -2 to attack rolls, it would still be good. I don't think there was any reason for a boosted damage roll, and maybe the +2 to the attack roll was a bit much (it's a hasty counter-attack, after all) but doesn't it make sense that the Devout would try to knock the attack off balance, lowering its chance to hit?

Baensidhe
Singing the soft susurration of reason

[Blackraine]

If they had just included Defensive Strike's -2 to attack rolls, it would still be good. I don't think there was any reason for a boosted damage roll, and maybe the +2 to the attack roll was a bit much (it's a hasty counter-attack, after all) but doesn't it make sense that the Devout would try to knock the attack off balance, lowering its chance to hit?

Baensidhe
Singing the soft susurration of reason

You taught me a new word, Banshee! Hooray!

[Silverstar843]

His weapon is not an AoE?

Might have been one of his spells, or possibly Mordikaar. Been a while and don't have my pdfs on this comp.

[Krinoth]

I've had alot of sucess running a unit of forgeguard with an attendant preist. Shadows of Urcaen allows them to partly mittigate their low speed if my opponent leves any juicy 'jacks or 'beasts the forgeguard can do a hell of alot of damage.

One thing that has often confused me in analysis of Thyra is a large number of people that I've heard of have claimd that Vengance on Thyra isn't a very noticable improvement. I feel like having Vengance on daughters is a huge improvement. At Def 15 they largely speaking fairly difficult to hit. In my experiance daugters of the flame usually take 2 turns to die. As soon as you put vengance on them your opponent is required to kill the entire unit in a single turn which is hard given their high def.

Is persuit a good spell? I've never really been able to cast it.

[Bollster]

Pursuit is great, if you can cast it. Late game, if you have an arc node hanging around, or if Thyra can get close enough to an enemy heavy or caster (but if she can get that close to the caster she can probably get close enough to sink her blades into their chest) without exposing her to any other threats, it makes her nearly unkillable. I played a game against a Sevvy1 player at 25pts, lost my whole army bar a Crusader, Thyra Pursuited (Pursued?) his Revenger, only remaining jack, and it stopped him from getting a choired, powerful charge off on her and he had nothing else to kill her except by exposing Sevvy1 and because of that, I got caster kill.
TLDR; Pursuit is situationally awesome.

[Auracco]

Just need to be careful not to spend too many points in support elements that you are lacking punch. If you have Covenant, Saxon, Corbeau, Heirophant, Wracks, Vassal, Choir, you're spending 13 points on things that only buff.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that the Reckoner is a great jack with her. Hit a warlock with a daughter that has Silence of Death on it to stop transfer plus ping it a bit, then assault with reckoner (ignoring the in melee def bonus) to finish. Additionally, against living things, Thyra can get to DEF19 against living.

This as someone who has faced Thyra with my Khador I was able to totally destroy my opponent because he had too much support and not enough killing power. I was able to pick his support with my shooting before Thyra had a chance to get to my caster.